Classic bunkum from the blazers
The SFA clearly think they are anchored halfway between the Royal family and the Da Vinci Code.
Talk of bloodlines and gentlemen's agreements, clearly sealed over a large gin and tonic by some crusty old blazers after a meeting of the four home associations, belong to a different era.
You can just see them, huddling together in a dusty old London club over another large one, saying: "Let's keep this stoutly British. Never mind what the rest of the world is doing. Bloodlines it is, if you want to play for one of us."
What an anachronism.
The world has moved on. The planet is a melting pot now and the Scottish Football Association had better realise it.
I'm not talking here about Nacho Novo, although it was the case of the Spaniard who highlighted the whole who-can-play-for-Scotland issue. Poor wee Nacho only answered a question about whether he fancied the gig.
He'll never play for Scotland and he knows it now, but thanks for the tin opener. The can of worms is burst open.
The association are wrong on two counts, first legally.
If there were a Bosman out there who wanted to drag them through the European Court of Human Rights they would be hung out to dry. "Gentlemen's agreements" don't wash, particularly when the identities of the gentlemen concerned have been lost in the mists of time.
Secondly it is morally and socially dreadfully off the mark.
Let us say that a family of refugees came to Scotland with a baby and settled here, embracing our culture as surely as we embraced their need.
The son grows up in Glasgow, has the accent and - as it happens - is pretty nifty at the beautiful game.
He drinks pints of heavy, likes a fish supper, wears a kilt and maybe even enjoys a game of bingo. He might still look African, but that lad is as Scottish as me, the Paps of Jura, a deep fried Mars Bar and the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.
And yet George Peat and his cronies say that, because he has no bloodline, he cannot pull on the dark blue jersey. No matter if he is the new Pele. In a lifetime of listening to utter bunkum from administrators of the game, this is a classic.
At the moment of course the association can play their get-out-of-jail free card, because there is no case to answer. Even Novo, given he doesn't actually have a British passport nor is a regular starter in the Rangers team, is a serious candidate.
And don't give me the tosh about the Tartan Army not accepting it. Nigel Quashie - EastEnders accent and all - was greeted with a chorus of "you're not English any more" when the support realised he could play a bit.
Scotland, as a football nation, is in reverse. We are parachuting down the FIFA rankings and South Africa looks further away than ever. Frankly we need all the help we can get.
If we can have German and English coaches then I cannot fathom the logic that says we cannot have an immigrant who has truly adopted this land as home, with or without the bloodline.
Even the House of Lords saw sense on that one. You achieve in life what you make of it on your own.
If I crook my neck and try my best to see from where the old buffers were coming then I suppose they were - in their day - trying to protect the image of the game. But times have changed and Scotland - and the UK - has opened it doors to people who now call this island their home.
And you are either in the gang or you are not.
The SFA are currently giving their full support to the Show Racism the Red Card campaign and bless them for that...but is it only me who sees a little irony here?
"Tell them who you are and what you are about," they said. To be honest, there are days when I struggle to remember myself. Forty years toiling at the coalface of football journalism does that to you. But I have reason to believe that I have reached the heady heights of the title of Football Correspondent of BBC Scotland which gives me a renown, in Scottish terms, of somewhere between Alex Salmond and the deep fried Mars Bar.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~37~RS~)
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Absolutely rubbish. How can you compare a young child growing up in Scotland to one who's played there for 7 or 8 years? Completely different. Novo hasn't grown up in Scotland, he's Spanish, simple as.
I'm English and i don't want Cudicini or Almunia to play for England. Firstly they're not English, playing football for a club who pay you thousands of pounds a week to play in a different country doesn't really count in my opinion. Now, if Carlo Cudicini had a child, who grew up in England, well that would be entirely different.
These players will play for their adopted nations as they can't get into their home nation squads. I don't want a player who's only chosen my country, who i would be proud to represent, as a last resort.
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I have to agree with the blog, the point is that theres 2 scenarios. In the first is Nacho Novo, Almunia and Cudicini in the second there is the hypophetical African family that comes over to Scotland/England and raises a baby that was born in their original home country.
The argument is that by counting out novo et al, you are also counting out the hypophetical African kid that has lived almost his entire life in Scotland and is just as Scottish as me.
Whereas i wouldnt go as far to hint at racism, i do believe that novo shouldnt play for scotland(not that he ever will) but i also believe our hypophetical African brother should be eligible.
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Good one Mr. Young..
Some body has to take a stand!!
My Congratulations to you for showing your courage.
But at the same time, I have heard about this scenario somewhere. Speaker was referring to Croat Da Silva. He said "A day will come when 24 x 11 Brazilians playing against each other under different country names."
Will this really come to that?
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The point that nobody seems to have raised is that the home nation's FAs originally settled upon this "gentleman's agreement" to prevent someone with a British passport playing for any of the home nations.
This was seen as a key factor in protecting our status as individual countries on FIFA's eyes.
Break this and you will open the door for holders of a British passport to pick and choose their nationality as a badge of convenience and destroy the international game as they are slowly but surely destruing our club game.
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Last comment by Dannys Beard is an interesting one and needs exploring...
1) Nach Novo, as he is the example out there, could play for Scotland legally because of residency which will give him citizenship/passport (British)
2) His residency is not Scottish residency but British. His new nationality British.
3) He could therefore play not only for Scotland but for Wales, England or Northern ireland.
4) Therefore any of the Premiership players qualifying to play for England by dint of residency could also play for Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland and not just the auld enemy.
a) Does this in itself not undermine the case for indivudual footballing countries that Chick Young has purported to be so concerned about more than any Seb Coe plan for a united team and
b) If and overseas player could play for Scotland by the fact that they have been resident in the UK how long would it be before an English player complained about restraint of trade? A French born Arsenal player who's been in the country since Wenger signed him up at 16 would be eligible to play for at least Five countries but certainly all four UK countries but the English kid from the north of London would only be able to play for England? Hmmmm European law may have something to say about that scenario.
So Chick if we're not going to protect nationaility by bloodlines how do you suggest we keep the lid on what I see is a logical progression towards non national international football?
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The better teams north of Hadrian's wall should play in the Premier and other leagues. There should be only one team representing the British Isles. SNP might not like it but I suggest that it would be better for British football. Someone might like to pick such a team from current British players (not me since I know nothing about the game).
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Comment number 6 is glorious, he sweeps away our national identity and then admits to not knowing anything about the game, without any sense of irony.
I agree with the Blog though, you can't have an old boys network deciding on International issues although this does need to be addressed. the chances of a world cup game being between 22 Brazilians are increasing year on year.
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The point about a naturalised british passport being available to play for any home nation is well illustrated by that well known Welsh player Pat Van den Hauwe.
If Almeunia or Nacho Novo or anybody else has a british passport and had not previously played elsewhere they would probably be legally entitled to play for any team that would have them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Van_Den_Hauwe
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Fascinating! Whenever people ask me what it is like living in the UK I point out that it is a country where the ancient and modern live side by side but are so utterly intertwined that you cannot even see the seam between them. This whole situation is yet another simple example of this polarity.
Explain myself? Consider this:
- The UK always seems to be behind all the other western countries especially the Scandanavians and Dutch when it comes to social reforms and rights. Look at gay marriage, homosexuality, sex, censorship, etc. No wonder it is called the Bosman ruling - can you imagine a Brit going to all that trouble to get his rights in the European Courts? We have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.
- All the 4 FAs in the UK are an example of the antiquated and dusty mentality that is leaving us years behind all the other football playing countries. The Americans started playing their version of football over here and around the world decades ago but when someone in the UK dares to suggest the same thing for our top teams you would think he had asked for Princess Diana's body to exhumed and hung, drawn and quartered for treason. Why are all even the so-called 'new' ideas so readily pooh-pooed when others have been thinking them up and implementing them long before us? No wonder modern technology is taking so long to be introduced in comparison to cricket both forms of rugby and just about every other sport. This is why we did so well in the Olympics in case people are thinking it all just happened by accident! I am sure there are still people out there who think a REAL footballer should be able to drink a dozen pints the day before a match, wash them down with a few kebabs and still score a hat-trick for England the next day. Thank God for Arsene Wenger and his strange macro-biotic beliefs!
- The arrogance and ignorance of these people is breathtaking. They are a self-serving cabal who run a multi-billion industry who seem to answer to each other rather than to the public or to the government. They keep on making poor decisions that would bankrupt any commercial enterprise without suffering any consequences whatsoever. They treat the public as a never-ending cash generating machine and show no shame at all. If even one of them had actually had the decency to disembowell themselves with McClaren's Umbrella I may have some respect for them.
What has all of the above got to do with the above blog? I realise that I may be straying off this specific point but it highlights all that is wrong at present with our FAs. The problem is that these people are so far out of touch with the modern world we live in that they do not seem to realise that they cannot stop progress however much they dislike it and regardless of whether or not they consider it to be 'progress'. If any person, let alone a professional footballer, gains British Citizenship he or she is automatically eligible to play for one of the 4 teams in the UK. They can shake as many hands as they like in private but if a Court in Brussels (or the UK) says that a person or player is eligible to play for their country of citizenship then even they have to abide by the ruling. Obviously, they do not have to select such a person or player but if the team manager asks him to turn up for training there is liittle they can do about it.
In summary, this is yet another example of Football in this country lagging decades behind the rest of life's other branches. Until we modernise the FAs in this country along the lines of other sports and activities we will be doomed to lose at the Quarter-Final Stages of all those competitions we actually qualify for. Obviously, I am talking about England here as the 3 other Home Countries do not stand much of a chance any more. Shame really - I remember when Scotland really were a better team than England and when Liverpool won everything with Scottish players.
Revolution, anyone or just more of the same?
Cheers, Joe.
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I have to say that I agree with the sentiments expressed by joeperriman above. The FAs of the various 'Home Nations' repeatedly show themselves to be out of touch with reality.
I was stunned and appalled by the arrogance of this so-called 'gentleman's agreement'. For starters, it's called a 'GENTLEMAN'S agreement', which shows the lack of respect that should be afforded the countless women who participate in the sporting networks of the UK.
I find myself, curiously, in agreement also with Chick Young! A much more fluent and well argued sentiment than the last article on this matter... just a shame that there are still references to Scottish stereotypes such as the 'deep-fried Mars bar'.
It's a strange situation, as I am well aware that some lines must exist if international football is to continue. However, it does kind of raise the question as to WHY we have international football in the first place. Is it to celebrate or to highlight difference?
One thing that everyone, everywhere shares who plays the beautiful game is humanity. Black, white, English, Scottish, Brazilian, Kazhakstani... whatever. Everyone has somewhere they consider to be home. If they choose to use that as a symbol for denying other people the same privileges they expect, then they do not deserve to represent their country at anything.
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Leslie Vainokolo playing for England, New Zealand 2nd XIV playing for Wales & Scotland in Rugby Union, half the England Cricket team?
The FA's decision to do sweet FA is based on one matter only - the desire or financial need, take your pick - to maintain the home nations as a seperate entity. They can't stand the thought of anything changing which might jeopardise this. Which i understand and accept, we would all support our own corner of the isle over the union when it comes to sport.
What i fail to understand though is how, in many other sports, qualifying on residency is no barrier to representing the adopted nation of choice, or, in Athletics, how we can be GB in the Olympics but then revert back to the individual nations for the Commonwealth Games - there is no logic and no uniformity of ruling as to what is the correct stand to take.
Confused, i am now
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two words here....Ray Hougton.... speaks with a scottish accent ... played for the Republic.... Why? Because Scotland didnt want him and Jack Charlton did.... What's the difference between Ray Houghton and Nacho Novo?
I could mention others......Anyone ever heard of Bruce Rioch?
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I wish I had not checked the blogs again as I am a bit peeved with MontyMalcy in Blog 10 for making his excellent point about the so-called 'Gentleman's Agreement' as I should have spotted this myself. Nice one! Excellent last paragragh as well. Maybe Monty should get a job as Obama's speech writer? Anyway, anyone involved in such a Bismarckian style subterfuge should not be called a gentleman in the first place.
The answer to Monty's possibly rhetorical question is that international sports in general and international football in particular are just more acceptable and pleasurable (Unless you support England!) forms of warfare between Nations. Please refer to Desmond Morris who once memorably compared the scoring of a goal (with the ball hitting the back of the net) to the spear of a caveman striking some poor lumbering beast (No, not Emile Heskey!). It is a VERY basic instinct which is why so many people are completely irrational when it comes to football including both fans and the powers that be as per the above blog.
Sports is a huge business and whilst maybe not as profitable as armaments and oil is more easily understood and appreciated. Along with alcohol, fags and religion football can be considered yet another opiate of the masses. If you look at it this way you can understand why we are being fleeced by the people in charge. We get charged the earth for the same old product and yet we keep coming back for more. We have become addicted and they know it.
I stopped attending matches a long time ago because I came to the conclusion that it was not worth all the angst, time, money and effort. That is why all I am left to do is to have a little rant like this against the soul-lessness of it all and the sheer greed and incompetence of those who should be putting the glory of the game before the black or red numbers (more often red nowadays!) at the bottom of the balance sheet. Despite being aware of the reality you will still find me like so many other Englishmen gravitating towards a bar showing an England match wherever they are in the world. It is all worth it just to see a goal like Rooney's against Belarussia.
Like I said, we are all addicted. The only question is 'how much'?
Cheers, Joe.
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owen hargreaves, anyone? maybe there are others... zola budd... kevin pietersen...? ok, different sports..
and weren't we happy enough for lennox lewis to be british when he was world champ? ok, i think he was born in the uk and moved to canada at a very early age, but that's just the other side of the coin.
aren't we happy enough to call joanna lumley and sir cliff 'british' even though they were born abroad?
chick's spot on! the world's changed, and england, let alone scotland, can't afford to stick their heads in the sand any longer!
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I think some of the chat here is a little overly PC. "Gentleman's agreement" is a widely used term. It certainly wasn't coined in the blog above, and I very much doubt it was invented by any of the four home nations FAs. Its merely an efficient shorthand way of expressing a fairly complex notion in two words. People who feel it is sexist are probably the kind who prefer to describe the study of events in the past as "Herstory".
Should Scotland call up players like Nacho Novo? I'm not sure. It would be great if we could field 11 Scottish players in the national team (i.e 11 people born here regardless of extended family lineage). However, when the national teams of France and Holland are filled with players from Africa and Surinam respectively can we really afford to stick to our principles so rigidly?
One thing is for sure however - we can't afford to let undeniably Scottish players like McCarthy and McGeady slip the net!
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Again, I should stick to work but......
I have never been 'accused' of being PC so this is a first time for me. I do not think that MontyMalcy was being PC either. The fact that Ferry_Arab (Great moniker by the way!)confirms that this is an old expression is because it is an very old expression and that is why it was used in the first place by Chick Young. The whole point of this blog is that the Scottish FA are behaving in a manner based on outmoded practices. I would have thought the first sentence gave this away?
If you google these words then this is what you find:
'A gentlemen's agreement was a way of sealing a deal without cumbersome paperwork and the expense of having a lawyer draw up a formal contract.'
The expression goes back a long way and made sense in the olden times if you just wanted to speed things up. However, nowadays the connotation is a bit more subtle as we think of people making such an agreement behind closed doors and without any contract because they KNOW it will not stand up against any legal action or because they see no need to justify their actions to the public. It is the same as a company that has an internal agreement not to hire smokers - they cannot enforce this legally but they can get away with it if they are not too obvious about it. In other words it is really just a 'verbal agreement' between two or more parties who do not want to have anything in writing. This is certainly the case here as any competent human rights lawyer would shoot their 'agreement' down in flames. Even the word 'gentleman' does not have the same kudos or carry the respect it used to do as society has changed too much. Being called a gentleman is more likely to mean you are old-fashioned and from a well-off, moneyed background than meaning you are a decent bloke the way it used to do.
Also, the word history has nothing to do with gender. It just means 'inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation' in Greek. I realise that Ferry_Arab is probably just trying to be funny but who knows?
The problem with this issue is that every time something that will only affect a tiny minority of people is brought up mass hysteria ensues so that the bizarre conclusion is that we will eventually have 22 Brazilians playing each other. When the Bosman ruling was made the predictions were that it would be the death knell and end of professional soccer as we knew it.
Look at all the examples already posted on this blog of sportspeople switching their nationality. This is just reflected by the world at large where people are able to move to other continents and countries more easliy. 10 years from now everyone will have forgotten this issue and such switches will be considered the norm.
Cheers, Joe.
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Great article and great debate going on with the comments.
I can see why this situation exists; there is more than football to the existance of the 4 FAs.
It's about identity. Scotland and Wales are immensely proud nations who have had their 'freedom' sectioned by England. If everyone was proud to be British there wouldn't be a problem with a Great Britain or UK football team, the fact of the matter is Welsh people don't want to be British, they want to be Welsh and the same for Scotland.
I think Northern Ireland would be quite happy to be part of a British team, but I can't really comment.
I'm an England fan and I follow the other Home Nations - I wish they could all qualify for International tournaments along with England. Well - when we do qualify! :)
By the FAs keeping their teams fully homegrown then (or appearing homegrown - see the Ray Houghton comment above!) then it stops FIFA from having a reason to merge the FAs.
If Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland applied for FIFA membership now they would be denied under FIFA rules so I can see why they don't want to risk losing something they will only ever get back with independance of their 'country' from the UK.
I hope I haven't caused any offence. I meant to try and give justification for FAs doing what they do. There is also probably some old boys trying to keep their jobs, but I do believe they have the interest of their own 'country' at heart.
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As far as I understand it under FIFA rules anyone with a British Passport is eligible to play for any of the four home nations. The gentlemans agreement was designed to stop England going to George Best for example and saying why do you want play for Northern Ireland come and play for England and you'll have more success?
The four FA's agreed to the bloodline rule to stop them poaching each others players as legally there would have been nothing to stop Kenny Dalglish representing England or even say Steve Bruce representing Scotland.
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Comment number 1 - absolutely spot on.
Someone previously said that players should declare their national identity on their first ever professional contract and then only be allowed to play for that national team. I think this would be a great idea. You know who you want to play for when you are a kid and this never really changes, all that changes is the realisation that you might not be good enough for your country and in this instance you shouldn't get second choices at the expense of someone who has always wanted to play for that country. If this is allowed any more than it already is then we will lose international football as we know it and for many that will be a sad day.
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I think you're getting your knickers in a twist - the gentleman's agreement is only to prevent UK citizens from playing for any UK team, a peculiarity of our little island
I may not know about this scottish blood thing but immigrants as in your example have the opportunity - eg john barnes, what we're talking about here is people like arteta and almunia being eligible (or deco, eduardo etc) - and that is wrong, otherwise countries will just become collections of mercenaries like the clubs
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Great article, I wholly agree.
I don't see how one or two non-Scottish or non-English players in the national set-up will affect the identity of the respective teams.
Look at the all-conquering French team that won the World Cup in 98 and Euro's in 2000. It included Thuram, Desailly, Makelele, Karembeu, Trezeguet and Vieira, none of whom were born in France. Do you think the French public were complaining...NO! So why are we? The rest of Europe got over this issue decades ago.
Davids, Seedorf, Eusebio, Di Stefano, Deco, Eduardo, were all born in different countries to those they represent.
The whole idea that eventually a World Cup final could be contested between 22 Brazilians is ludicrous and will NEVER happen. People need to calm down, we're talking about one or two individuals at the end of the day.
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Chic,
I don't see what your Bosman point has to do with this. Selection for a national side is purely at the discretion of the national manager, so there's no discrimination case to answer. If it ever did transpire, then surely the national manager could just say ' I don't think such and such is good enough', and that would be it - case dismissed!
The situation you described with the refugess seems to mirror the situation that John Barnes had when he came to Britain (perhaps not as a refugee, but the principal is the same), and yet he turned out for England, so I don't think that the situation is as cut and dried as you make out.
As far as the Scotland team goes, you can fill it with foreigners if you want - I'm sure it would be allowed within the international rules- but just don't expect me and thousands like me to support it. My whole passion for the national side is driven by the fact that I feel they represent me in some way. I desperately want to play for Scotland, but realise that I'm not good enough, so the next best thing I can do is give them as much support as possible. You take away that element, the representation, and what are you left with? A football side that you've no affiliation with.
You mention that sides throughout Europe are filling their teams with passport holders, yet neglect to mention that the crowds who come to see these sides have dwindled alarmingly, and I believe the reason for that is that the public in these countries no longer feel tied to their national sides, because they feel that they aren't being represented by them.
I'm sure we'd have a far better side if we were able to persuade every single visitor to these parts to play for us, but I'd no longer feel that they were playing for me personally, that they felt the same as I did when we lost, or the elation that I feel when we win.
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Rubbish article. It's a shame that Brazilians play in different European national teams. Also a shame that Arsenal, Liverpool & Co. are not English football teams anymore. Please, leave the national teams alone.
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Well done Chick, thats just about the mentality of the idiots who run the game in Britain.
How many nations now have a Brazilian playing for them? Even the Germans have one!
As far as I'm concerned if you're good enough and qualify to play through FIFA regulations then there is no reason why you can't.
As for the so called "gentlemens agreement" are there any gentlemen in charge of football anymore?
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I have to agree, nacho who hasn't lived in spain for last 7 years certainly isnt spanish.
how does having a grandparent or parent who's scottish (mcevely) but living in england all your life make you more scottish than nacho who has soaked up the culture for 7 years.
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Think about it Chick. Novo applies for a BRITISH passport - surely that means he can play for ANY of the four countries over which that passport presides. We're on shakey ground here. If the British Olympic Team is dangerous because it shows the 4 Home Nations as an anomoly in International Football, then why is this any different? To my knowledge there exists no seperate rules on residency in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales or England - one rule for all, that of the UK. If you get a British passport, you become a resident of Britain. Well done to all 4 Associations concerned, this time you've got it right.
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Great article Chick!
Regarding Novo, my view would be that he has given more to, and done more for, Scotland in his days at Dundee and Rangers than many "blood-line" players have ever given to this country
- Not only has he probably contributed a lot financially in terms of taxes (income, council, etc) and socailly with visits to schools and hospitals, his children are effectively Scottish -
I for one would rather have the Novo's of Scotland playing for the colours than the Quashie's, who pop up the road a few times for the odd game and then can't wait to duke back over Hadrian's wall as soon as!
That said, its a minefield!...
eg. Arteta - he may eventually qualify to play for England, but only because he spent much of his early career in Scotland!?!
Oh, and PS, i don't think Novo is good enough for Scotland anyway!
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This one's got me confused a bit... Is it possible that a foreign player playing in england could get capped for scotland too?
as we only have a passport for the united kingdom and not the individual nations, so if novo did get a uk passport maybe wales or n.i. would cap him first!!
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Novo playing for Scotland would be ridiculous and should be avoided at all costs, however I'm not sure using a hypothetical child refugee is a fair comparison.
Scotland has already capped a player with no bloodline (albeit for the Under 21s) in Sergei Baltacha Jr.
Born in Keiv, he came to Britain aged nine when his dad signed for Ipswich, moving to Perth at age ten when Baltacha Senior was transferred to St. Johnstone.
This would suggest that should a player with no Scottish blood but who has grown up there wish to play for Scotland the door would be open to him.
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This is by far and away the best article chick has ever written on here. I think that Novo could easily be in the scotland squad right now no-one here is telling me that kris commons is a lot better than him and Novo is certainly more scottish since he has lived here for 9 years or so.
The other thing that seems to have been ignored is the fact that Peat said that he would happily allow Amoruso to play for scotland a few years back something which has been hidden for some reason!
I am not saying that Novo himself should be picked but considered yes, we have supported many non scottish players who pulled on the dark blue (i was at easter road for quashies first goal and that chant!). The talk of 11 brazilians is just ridiculous as they would have to reside for far too long and especially in the u.k the permit system would never allow them to be here! It's important that we consider all players available for selection if they give 100% in the dark blue i really don't care who would you rather have a novo who wants to play for his adopted country or mcarthy or mcgeady who would rather play for the land of there ancestors? I think somehow if young bojan at barca moved here because he wanted to play for scotland they would be biting their hands off to get out of the agreement
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I could be wrong, but Matt Le Tissier was able to play for any of the four "home nations" with its own football association wasn't he? One of the comments above mentions a situation where one person can be eligible to play for any of the home nations by virtue of holding a British passport, but a player born in one of the home nations without a relative on another can only play for that team. Taking Le Tissier as an example, players born in the Channel Islands or Isle of Man already provide the potential for the restrictive movement argument for British players who cannot choose their team. I think the English FA is involved in the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, so it may have a moral "first call" - was another gentlemens' agreement called upon in the case of Le Tissier? And would it apply if one of the French players had a grandparent from Guernsey or if an Irish player had a British passport solely through the Isle of Man? I know this is all a little far fetched, but it does show that the free movement question has already been considered and quietly put to one side before now.
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Chic Young you are an intellectual pygmy. How does the novo situation relate to this new and hypothetical arguement you make. Another week another sub-standard blog by the laughing stock of the BBC. I also see "the irony" in you again ignoring the racist and sectarian issue which is more revelant to your 'immigrant' scenario. Nonsense.
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I think that really there should be one reason, residency permitting, as to why Nacho Novo shouldn't play for SCotland. That reason being that the Scotland Manager thinks Novo's not good enough to get in the team.
Considering how much "other sports" have got away with regarding representing their country (Pieterson, Budd, and Henry Paul spring readily to mind, while the Scotland RU team a couple of years ago was mainly made up of Kiwis & Ausies, 2nd/3rd Gen Scots mind) our Football authorities are a tad backward here, but not as backward as the fans.
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Chicaldinho,
Poised as we are at the trailing edge of the Scottish Enlightenment, I am encouraged by your internationalist sentiment expressed herein (I am sure this means that you read my entry in last week's blog!) I am, THIS WEEK, reminded of the sagacity of the epic American slogan as "Forward not Back!" which could refer both to footballing and political philosophy alike. Novo is of course a forward but McCain is more of a defensive midfielder who prefers the tackle to Obama's lateral pass. Salmon is one of those tricky ball-players that flatter to deceive, whereas Irn Broon won't give much away at the back. But for the creative midfielder we can always turn to Burns (the scourge of the Blazers and their ilk):
"O wad some Power the giftie gie us to see oursels as ithers see us".
Thanks for that at least Chick (someone told me you are part Brazilian - no wonder the "parliamentarian" tried to kick you off the park).
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29 single_fish
under fifa regulations yes, hence why the agreement exists - all are British and therefore can play for any of the 4 nations (altho 1 cap would seal them) - because they don't exist as sovereign nation states in themselves - so the British FAs have to have their own system which is in effect completely imaginary - the 'scottish bloodline' bit stops other brits joining scotland
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Well I have to agree with Mr Young on this, I look at myself I was born and raised in Scotland, I have an american father! So if I was a good football player I could play for the USA or Scotland being my father's Mum and Dad where born in Greece, I guess I could play them aswell ! Being that my Mums greatgrandmother was from France, so I guess I could play for them aswell. I hope some see my point here ! So I guess my whole point here is the UK or Scotland needs to sort out who can play for who, But I feel FIFA should make the rule and all of the world who are in FIFA should have a summet and make the rules in the proper way, It will never happen mind you but it needs to be put on the table and sorted out on who and why and when they can play, there are many nations who take advantage of the rules It is time to make it more clearer and not to take it away from the home teams, FIFA needs to be involved and to be honest I think FIFA are a joke, so I guess it is a no win gamble.
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Great article, great comments.
This issue certainly isn’t confined to football. If you look at the table tennis teams entered in the Olympic Games, almost every one has a Chinese name. Funny that. And neither is it a modern issue. Alfredo di Stefano was Argentinean for six games in 1947, Colombian for four in 1949 and finally Spanish for another thirty-one, and he didn’t acquire any more nationalities only because a footballer’s career is finite.
More modern examples include Owen Hargreaves, who was born in Calgary, Alberta and Simone Perrotta, who was born in Ashton-under-Lyne, Greater Manchester. Of course Hargreaves is the son of an English couple, and Perrotta was the son of Italian parents and grew up in Italy from the age of six.
I totally agree with the complaints about the fusty suits and ties that govern a game which should belong to the people. I also sympathise with the worries about racism and the relevance of laws such as those created because of the Bosman ruling.
And I certainly don’t care where people come from or where they ply their trade.
However, surely the point of an international – national – fixture is having eleven home-grown players against eleven of the same. You want to be proud of your players, who grew up in your town and speak the same language (figuratively) as you – it doesn’t matter if they are black when the Scottish are traditionally white and it doesn’t matter whether they are Muslim when the Scottish are traditionally Christian – but I reckon the fans will want the players to at least be Scottish. The fans already complain about the lack of commitment of the players – how is a Spanish person expected to sweat a Scottish shirt as much as the fans want him to?
Any doubts about that – look at how Brazilian Deco is treated by the Portuguese.
People harp on about this being the way forward and the way to win the world cup. However, I thought winning at all costs was against the spirit of the game.
What’s the use of supporting “England” if the players aren’t English. Come to think of it, what’s the use of supporting Manchester united if the players aren’t Manc?
Come back the Lisbon lions!
And as for Nacho Novo – sit him down in front of a Spain-Scotland (or a Galiza-Scotland, which is much more to the point in this argument) and see what happens!
And now that we’re at it, put an Englishman in the Scottish team and see what happens! (Sorry, I couldn’t resist that one!)
(I wouldn’t normally do this, but I’m going to get off the fence and give my personal opinion – international weekends are, in footballing terms, lost weekends. I don’t care about international football for the very reasons mentioned in post #13.)
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I hardly think they can be hung out to dry, you can't force a national coach to pick a player. He can easily just not select anyone not born or raised in the country, no problem.
Also, the whole point of national football is for the countries to play each other. It would just be another version of club football if you can have anyone from around the world. Not being xenophobic, that is the point.
It's like FIFA wanting club quota's for home players. Club football; whoever can get to play for you, National football; whoever you want who was born (or raised) in your country. Simple! Why does it raise so many issues?
As for the child being raised in Scotland, that's entirely different, and I'm sure the SFA would be fine with someone like you've suggested playing for them.
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A true story for you Mr Young, from my English father, whilst learning African law at Oxford c. 1947:
He was in digs with a Fijian and the big social event that Saturday night was the Caledonian Ball.
So the Fijian toddled off to Tearle Street to hire himself the proper kit and looked rather dashing as he socialised effortlessly around ceilidh dancers reeling off the Gay Gordons, the Eightsome Reel etc etc.
About 11pm (i.e. about the time that Scotsman with a certain alcoholic thirst get a bit belligerent), he was tapped on the shoulder firmly, so he turned around:
' Hey you Jimmy: what ye doin in that kult?'
'When in Rome, do as the Romans do...'
'Ye kannae wear a kult, only a Scotsman can wear a kult!'
'I assure you I have Scots blood in me!'
'Ye cannae!'
'Why not?'
'Yer......yer brown!!'
'Well, back in the days when my ancestors were still cannibals, my island was colonised by Scottish Missionaries and my Great Grandfather ate one!!'
The Fijian went on to be Prime Minister of his country.
There is no known historical record of what became of the drunken Glaswegian.
Nor did history record whether his interest in football was sectarian in nature........
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Chick,
I have made some grammatical adjustments to your article. I feel this is required to improve the readability of the article. I was quite disturbed at the level of journalism exhibited by someone employed by the BBC. Perhaps our license fee could be better used by buying word processing software with a spelling and grammar check.
The adjustments are as follows,
- “The association are wrong on two counts, first legally.”
You should not end a paragraph with what appears to be the start of the next paragraph
- “Secondly it is morally and socially dreadfully off the mark.”
There should be a comma after “Secondly”. Also, if you want to use the word dreadfully after socially then you need to put a comma after socially else you have used the phrase “socially dreadfully”. Without commas this sentence does not make sense.
- “Nigel Quashie - EastEnders accent and all - was greeted with a chorus of "you're not English any more" when the support realised he could play a bit.”
This requires parenthesis to add additional information about Nigel Quashie, rather than the dashes you have used.
Thank you
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I guess it depends upon what kind of football supporter you are. I'm Country first (Scotland), Club second.
But I'm sure there are plenty of fans in the Premier League & Premier Division who care far more about their Club's performances, than the national sides.
It's no wonder why we have so many expensive foreigners in the Premier Leage / Premier Division, (including the aforementioned Novo, Arteta, etc).
I do believe the 'John Barnes' example is perfectly valid, and rightfully he was entitled to play for England...
I strongly disagree with the "use a second-rate domiciled foreigner to boost you're national team" idea.
However, Nobody has asked the question "If it wasn't for all these foreign players being brough into the Premiership / Premier Division - would we evening be thinking about this ?
(e.g. The local kids would be getting more opportunities to play, and the game in the UK would develop the natural talent, without the need for these expensive imports.)
If you have to cheat to win Internation Football, what exactly do you win ? It's a pretty hollow achievement if you have to rely on out of sorts foreigners.
Also... (imagine if you will) If Kris Boyd
had not played for Scotland before now, following his non-selection under Burley, exactly how cheesed off would the fans be if Albania stepped up with a pile of cash and asked him to play for them ??
Up to this point in time we've never had an issue with this problem. (e.g. If it ain't broken - Don't fix it!)
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Scottish blood? Nacho is from Galicia, Northern Spain, so some of his ancestors probably populated the British Isles after the last Ice Age. And the Celts moved to that region of the world in historical times. So if you really want to talk about blood let's get a sample of Nacho's DNA and you'll see how Scottish he is. Or how Spanish the Scots are.
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I appreciate the refugee who came here when he was 2, speaks like a Scot, feels Scottish etc. But at the same time, someone brought up abroad, such as Novo should not play for Scotland, even before we get to the fact that he's a distinctly average player.
You have to be born in Scotland, have Scottish parents (or at a push grandparents) or, how about having spent at least 15 or so years here? Or having gone to school here?
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If there was going to be a rule i think it should be something as simple as you have to live a certain number of years in the country you want to play for before your 18th birthday or something.
This would mean that you've actually grown up in the country you want to play for, rather than plying your trade, because that's all that Novo et al. are really doing.
This however would still lead to problems. Messi played for Barcelona from when he was 13, therefore you could say he could play for Spain. May lead to the Man Utd's of the world having a lot of South American youngsters who end up playing for England.
This though could be remedied easily by saying that you can't move to a foreign country before a certain age on a football contract, which is done in some countries i believe.
All boils down to the fact though that i really don't want Cudicini or Almunia to play for England. They're not English, they've been paid to play here, simple as. If they're kids want to play for England, it's fine, i don't mind. If they're not good enough for Italy or Spain that's their fault, they shouldn't be given a second chance at England...
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Actually we had the classic bunkum from your last blog about Novo. This is a terrible attempt at an apology for that last dark and dusty article you wrote. Away with you, you charlatan. The world has moved on yes, and you haven't, and no dressing it up can hide it.
Yes the world has moved on but scottish football is not some dark suited narrow minded brandy swizzlers in a London club. It's people like you who no doubt applaud the sectarianism and racism that comes off the terraces.... Shame on you. If you want to say you got it wrong say it. Otherwise take up singing, you could not be worse than you are at the day job.
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If a dog is born in a stable, does he become a horse?
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I would love to read comments and debate on the eligibility and subsequent performances of the following Scotland international footballers and coaches that have pulled on the dark blue over recent times.
Robbie Stockdale
Gareth Williams
James Morrison
Chris Iwelumo
Dominic Matteo
Don Hutchison
Nigel Quashie
Matt Elliott
Neil Sullivan
Andy Goram
Stuart McCall
Richard Gough
Graham Alexander
James McEveley
Terry Butcher
Berti Vogts
I'm playing devil's advocate here, but there are some distinct lines of thought opened up as a result of Mr. Young's blog (whether you like him or not) that are quite interesting.
My view is that you could tease out that list into sub-groups of players who were born outside of Scotland that wore the jersey with pride; players born outside of Scotland that wore the jersey half-heartedly; players born in Scotland of a mixed heritage that wore the jersey proudly; two foreign-born representatives whose faces simply didn't "fit".
As a person born outside of Scotland but with a Scottish parent, I take a keen interest in the performance of Scotland international players of a similar background, because, like many, I too wished to play for Scotland but didn't because I wasn't good enough.
For example, as average as Graham Alexander is as a player, you cannot fault the sincerity of his feelings when he plays for the country his father was born in.
You may, however, have a different view of then performances of characters such as Matt Elliott and/or Dominic Matteo.
As for the Novo situation? Well, Portugal and France and Holland have been doing rather nicely in terms of pushing the boundaries of eligibility within the letter of the law, so if somebody like Novo changed his nationality, lived in Scotland for the rest of his life, and was sincerely committed to his new country, then I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with him playing for Scotland.
But the issue then is how do you measure something intangible like that?
Stuart McCall went as far as pulling on an England U-21 jersey, but he went on to win 40 caps and never gave less than 100% for club or country.
French-speaking Overseas Territories such as Martinique, French Polynesia, New Caledonia, all enjoy similar status to the four home nations in terms of FIFA membership, although all three are still politically part of France itself.
Its an intriguing debate.
Demispiritof67
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... and so the panic sets in Chick? Whatever happened to our national pride?
We're hardly in Bertie territory after a couple of poor results.
As for Novo - the guy is Spanish, always dreamed of playing for them and why not (until now that is, 'cause he's simply not good enough, and so We'll just have to do? I don't thinks so mate!). Nothing against him personally, but the precedent is crazy - anyway, there are far better Scottish forwards than Novo IMO.
The point about kids growing up here though is fair, so here's an idea - why not allow residency, but make the qualification say 15-20 years?
That would allow the natural justice of a kid growing up here to qualify, but stop this nonsense over grass is greener ship-jumpers, opting for aus as second best (and if we do permit this, I fear that's all well ever be).
One final thing on this, against this as I am, I'd STILL much rather have Nacho pull on a Scotland top than Kris Boyd. Wrong as it may be in peinciple, at least the wee man WANTS to play for us.
So, National Pride, we should treasure it - it may be all we have going for us these days - someone could maybe tell Kris Boyd where to find it? If he cared, that is.
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If we're going to let everybody play for whatever country they want, whats to stop the bigger countries from drawing in the best players of the smaller ones?
This naturalization stuff will be the death of international football as we know it. Soon, the world cup will not be countries, but club sides playing eachother.
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This is another insane politically correct article on the BBC.
I admire what the SFA are doing. There would be no meaning to International football if each country started playing the best immigrants in each nation.
I would hate the day England had to ever turn to Spaniard Almunia to represent England.
Listen to Platini. He is right about us English. Our coach is not English, our league is not English, our managers are not English, the owners are not English. It is ridiculous
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Note to number 48:
Chris Iwelumo is Scottish!!! He was born here, brought up here and talks with a very strong Glaswegian accent.
I am pretty sure a few others on your list are too.
The article has inticed some interesting debate but the bottom line is that Chick has not researched anything well enough to actually make a decent point out of it. As others have pointed out things like gaining a British passport make you eligible for ALL the home nations which opens up a bigger debate regarding national identity.
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I can see the point of the "gentleman's agreement" to prevent Scotland, for example, picking up players not good enough for England but good enough for Scotland (and there would be a lot of those).
Why not just make it this simple:
To be eligible, players must either:
1. Have a Scottish bloodline
2. Have resided in Scotland (not just Britain) for 5 years and have a UK passport
Personally I would rather have a Spaniard who has lived in Scotland and knows the country than an Englishman with a Scottish grandad who's never set foot in the country.
The second qualification means we could take a look at someone like Andy Driver of Hearts - a guy who's grown up in Scotland but was born in England with no Scottish bloodline.
It also means, had Larsson or Laudraup dropped male sprogs in Scotland who then grew up here, we could pick them further down the line.
Can they not just adapt their gentleman's agreement to make that happen? As for Nacho - he's not even good enough for Scotland - he's an average SPL player.
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Sorry but I have to disagree with Mr Young on this one, and comparing Novo to the son, or daughter, of an immigrant who has lived in this country since their very early years is not exactly a fair comparisson now is it?
I believe in the not so distant past Novo did express his desire to play for the Spanish national team, what's changed now then, did he have a little bit of a reality check and realise that he was far from good enough to get a game for the nation of his birth?
What I also find quite ironic about this whole scenario is the fact that players like Aiden McGeady and now more recently James McCarthy have been roundly criticised in the press and in forums like this for their choice of national team, which was based on blood line incidently. So to the fans of all those teams who routinely boo and abuse both of these players for their choices, what would you do if Natch Novo did one day pull on the dark blue of Scotland, surely he is no different from McGeady or McCarthy having chosen to play for a national team other than that of his birth.
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Super_TG, I think you might be missing the point with the irony that you mention...
McGeady gets booed by SCOTS because he is as Scottish as the rest of us, yet rather than work hard to eventually get called up for Scotland, he's decided to jump the dyke and play for Ireland. Being Scottish, Scotland is the country you should want to play for.
There are plenty of folk out there who only wish they were Scottish! So Nacho Novo would of course not be booed for pulling on the dark blue jersey because if he did that, it would mean he wants to represent the country that is important to him and us. However, unfortunately Scotland is just not important enough for some Scots like McGeady, which is why he gets booed.
ps. Much better blog this week, Chick. This is what last week's blog should've been. You've still not got the hang of paragraphs though.
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Super_TG - I don't agree with abuse for any player but you can't compare Novo to McGeady. Scotland wanted McGeady, Spain didn't want Novo. McGeady chose Ireland over Scotland - for whatever reason, that's what he did.
McGeady is arguable Scotland's best young player (and he is Scottish). Novo is not Spain's best young player. A better comparison is Owen Hargreaves choosing to play for England instead of Canada (except he'd never really lived in canada unlike McGeady in Scotland). And Hargreaves gets abuse from Canadian football fans (what few there are) for his decision by the way.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If McGeady is as Scottish as the rest of us then why does he qualify to play for Ireland? I don't know about you but I would only qualify to play for Scotland and therefore would have no choice, McGeady had a choice like many players have these days and he chose to play for Ireland, his choice fair and square.
And is this really down to how good a player actually is? McGeady is a better player than Novo and is indeed Scotland's loss but to me Novo playing for Scotland is a non starter, he is Spanish and only resides in this country becuase he is paid to play for a Scottish club. He is not good enough to play for Spain and is trying to get a chance at playing international football by any means, if he played in, for instance, Denmark, would he be as loyal to that nation?
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"his choice fair and square"
Indeed. And I have no problem with him receiving criticism for it. This is football after all - if players get booed for swapping one team for a rival team, then booing a player for turning his back on his home country - at a time when we need him - to play for a rival is perfectly acceptable to me.
Plus, his reasons for doing so are flimsy and inconsistent. One minute it's to do with schools football, then it's his grandad. In my eyes, McGeady (giving the relative states of the Irish and Scottish national teams at the time) is an opportunistic glory hunter and a classic "Plastic Paddy" (by the way I have the same disdain for Plastic Jocks) - as the Irish themselves would say.
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Chick - once again the question on my lips is - How did this man ever carve out a career in sports journalism and broadcasting? Your complete failure to form an even semi-comprehensible argument is on this issue is breathtaking. Bunkum isn't strong enough a word to describe the utter drivel you spout on a weekly basis. From next week I will be giving my blood pressure a rest. No longer will I bother to try to and reconcile your stunning lack of intelligence with the fact that the licence fee payer continues to stuff your weekly paypacket.
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People seem to make many comments on this using "person 1" or "person 2" as an example of their for or against argument. But the fact is there are different situations which people don't seem to take into account so I will try to list the different people here:
1) Person born in Britain with british parents
2) Person born in Britain with 1 foreign parent
3) Person born in Britain with 2 foreign parents
4) Person born outside Britain with british parent(s)
5) Person born outside Britain with other british relative
6) Person born outside Britain with foreign parents but moved here as a baby
7) Person born outside Britain with foreign parents and moved here as an adult.
Now people comparing Novo to Aiden McGeady, who has an irish gran, or Lennox Lewis, who was born in Britain, is as far as I can see completely wrong as they all fall into different categories. This is something that people don't seem to point out.
This 'gentlemen's agreement' seems strange to me as (after doing some research to confirm) Wales clearly broke this by playing Pat Van Den Hauwe, as pointed out in comment #8. Yet there has been no mention of this anywhere.
The other issue I have is with the "bloodline" thing. A player can have foreign parents and yet be born here and be, quite rightly, considered British. Does that mean if Nacho Novo and (I have no idea of his relationship status but for example) a Spanish girlfriend have a son in Scotland, the son would be considered British? I think that would be the case. Novo jr would be free to play for Scotland despite not having the "bloodline."
In my opinion, Novo should be free to play for Scotland if he applied for a passport as he has lived in Scotland long enough to become a citizen.
Interestingly enough, that could also be the answer to how to decide who he would be eligible to play for. The gentlemens agreement existed to stop Welsh players playing for England, Northern Irish players playing for Scotland etc. and so since Novo has lived in Scotland his whole time here that should decide who he can play for.
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Something rather basic has been overlooked here.
This so called gentleman's agreement only applies to British born players. Otherwise John Barnes could not have played for England. It has nothing to do with naturalised Britons born abroad.
Therefore it would NOT stop Nacho Novo playing for Scotland.
It's bad enough Chick doesn't know that but it seems Gordon Smith doesn't know either, which is pretty worrying.
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Don't know where to start with this article, if you could possibly call it that.
"He might still look African"
Chick, you'll have to explain that one to me.
You claim not to look at the various sites that supporters use. I suggest that maybe you should take the occasional peek because the standard of comment on many of these sites is far superior to the constant drivel that you subject us to.
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You're comparing apples and oranges, Chick.
Nacho Novo is a likeable spaniard who is in the twilight of his career and has no chance of getting a cap for Spain. He plays in Scotland for economic reasons and he is almost guaranteed European football every season.
McGeady situation just displays the wacky world the Old Firm inhabit and the West Coast of Scotland's bizarre idea of ethnic and cultural identity. Aiden is free to do what he wants and the hatred towards him is bang out of order but is is fair to ask : is nationality really a choice?
After a long spell playing in Scotland, Novo NOW wants to play for Scotland. Why? He isn't the son of immigrants nor is there any guarantee he won't head back to Spain after his playing career. Will Rangers give him a better contract?
Yes, we live in a globalised world but logically could Japan's squad be filled with Robinho, Ronaldinho etc.... if they were paid to move there and ,puff, as if by magic, they decided they felt more Japanese than Brazilian?
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Surely the point of International football is to measure the the level of football development in each country.
Using players who came through the Spanish system to play for Scotland will not accomplish this. I have always felt that using English players who had a scottie dog failed in this regard as well.
Country of birth is not the relevant factor but surely the system that developed the player should be the criteria.
If the English system developed you then you should play for England. If the Scottish system developed you then play for Scotland. I know the definition of developed is going to be difficult to define.
The current trend of taking young men away from home before they are 18 should be reviewed. I would assume the development period of consequence would be between 14 and 21.
At the moment football in Scotland is in terrible shape the level of skill has dropped over the past 20 years. Allowing players from outside the system might allow us to qualify for major competition. It would however not provide the incentive to improve the development of football in Scotland.
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Yet another painful article from Chick Young.
Without personalizing the argument to Nacho Novo, can we just concentrate on the principal of immigrants playing for Scotland.
Firstly, i utterly resent Chick pulling out the 'racist' card. What a weak position to come from......done purely to intimidate and silence any opposing view before any proper discussion can be held. Bad craic Chick, very bad craic.
For me, the crux of the argument seems to be when (and how) does someone become Scottish. This is a very tricky one to apply objective criteria to. Currently there are two options; firstly, go by the bloodline, or secondly go by the UK passport.
For me the bloodline one is still a valid qualification, so i'll leave it there and concentrate on discussing the second point.
The example of the African immigrant has been given. Come the time this boy would be eligible to play for Scotland, he'll have spent the majority of his life in Scotland.......that for me makes him Scottish - he has spent the majority of his life in Scotland. The same cannot be said for a Nacho Novo type person (or Alumina in the case of England).
It is my opinion that spending 5 years in a country does not suddenly make someone Scottish (or what ever country is in question), for people to qualify to play for that country then they must have spent the majority of their lives in that country and consider that country to be their country (loyalty).
Can i also throw something else into the discussion.......if someone gets an UK passport, then we would find ourselves in the ludicrous position of having a Spanish/German/Italian/whatever, being in a position to choose which country he plays for? Do the home nation FA's start competing against each other to secure the players services? Just because the guy spent five years in England, it wouldn't disqualify him from playing for Scotland or Wales for that matter? Thats what clubs have to do to attract players, not national teams. It would be a ludicrous and demeaning situation.
I am not a lawyer, but i very much doubt that not selecting a Novo-type person for Scotland will have legal implications. Players are selected for a National team...there is no automatic right for them to appear, regardless of how good they are.
It is bitterly disappointing that two Scottish boys have chosen to play for a foreign country. However, if that is where their loyalty's lye, then so be it. I consider them to be of the nationality of their chosen countries, in this case Irish. Nothing racist in that - surely if these guys have got the guts to turn their back on the country of their birth and the country of their parents birth, then they should show the same guts to take the criticism on the chin, whether that be at Ibrox or where ever.
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Will somebody tell France to abide by these rules and then tell the French that they have to hand back the trophies from 98 and 2000? Don't think so.
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Chic- the associations are not wrong legally.
A "bosman" can't drag the football associations through a court of human rights in this instance as none of the players representing them in international football are employed by the respective F.As.
The Bosman rule applies to club football as players are employees of the clubs and their trade was being restricted by clubs looking for fees for out of contract players.
Nacho Novo, as an example, would not be able to sue the SFA for not selecting him as he is not applying for a job with them and being turned down due to his nationality as he would not be an employee of the SFA while playing for Scotland.
This is different from a foreign player restriction on clubs as players are employed by the clubs and such a restriction would be illegal.
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Another good one Chick. Though the comment "He might still look African..." is cringeworthy.
You cannot imply that 'refugees', by default, 'look African'. The continent is made up of more than 50 countries, thousands of distinct languages and people of all appearances. Refugees? Sure, there are some, as there have been in Europe, Asia and the Americas at various (recent) points in history.
No need to encourage already inaccurate (and borderline racist) beliefs.
But like I said, another good blog; stick at it.
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Never thought I would ever say this but here goes - brilliant, Chick.
Sure made me laugh, but the sad thing is you're right.
Someone growing up in this country should have the right to represent it.
Nacho doesn't quite come under that banner, but what's wrong with a footballer who has worked his trade in a country outwith his nationality playing for said country.
The world is getting smaller all the time - except in Scotland where too many get to set the standards when it suits them.
It is ok to decry the English and send them homeward, but to sing about the Irish going home gets some too much media space.
But I digress. Some of these posters probably wouldn't allow Barack Obama to be president because he is not a real American, given his background.
And for all the serious mob that are ridiculously boo-hooing the article for not including every refugee that ever existed, or attempting to play the race card - get a life.
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All in all the Blazers are holding our game back! As you say Chick, times have changed and yet in football terms we havent changed with them!!
The Blazers pride themselves on being one of the founding fathers of the game.. great.. but lets get up to date and stop living in the past.
Forget the Nacho, will he wont he, and get our house in order and start bringing through our own talent.
I listen and read guys like Hugh Keevins, Jim Traynor and yourself going on about Scottish football.. how far behind Celtic and Rangers are.. but I never see or hear one word in how to fix the problems.. or is that forward thinking not part of your guys job??
Let me hear it.. lets start something here.. papers.. radio.. tv.. lets sort out the problems and fix them.. Scottish football is slowly dying, we need to realise this and get together under one umbrella.
Strachan points out that our clubs cant sign the new Romario or Ronaldo. These guys have to have played over 75% of internationals before they get in the country.. this doesnt happen in Holland, Portugal.. Sweden.. so why here? Is this a Home Office ruling or and SFA ruling?? Again it ties our hands.
So if we did get a 16yr Brazilian over to Hamilton Accies and the guy turned out to be the new Pele.. then I bet every scot from here to there would be wanting the boy in our national team.
Novo however is Spanish.. and to me he's not any better than what we have. If and when someone comes along who is better and wants to play for Us then yes get him in. France, Protugal, Holland have been doing this way back to the 60s and earlier.
Gettin back to the Blazers.. lets bump the likes of Peat and get real football men in there who have a forward thinking brain.. imagination and passion for the sport!!
Come on.. lets get the media to get behind football instead of slagging our efforts.. Im not into glorious failure.. I thought we were a nation of fighters!!!
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Would Aiden McGeady or the Hamilton boy get it in the neck if it was Italy they chose to play for? If McGeady had an Italian granny and chose to play for them.. would we be bothering or say he was in the squad at the last world cup and won a medal.. would we be over ourselves that a 'Scot' had at last won the world cup!!
Im guessing the latter..
But its because its Ireland.. that both he and McCarthy get slaughtered!
I dont mind players getting booed for playing for another club or country but that isnt the case here.. and we all know it!!
As for the African looking boy.. who cares.. football breaks down barriers.. if you're good enough you're playing!!
This gents agreement.. did it apply to Owen Hargreaves? If England want a decent player over the other Home Nations.. 10 times out of 10 they will get their man!!
And I agree with the guy above.. we sing about the English and love to hate them.. yourself and Traynor included.. yet Old Firm fans are bigots.. time to start looking closer to home guys!!
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Watched a class act the other night.. a one club pro who came through one countries schoolboy set up but yet still played for the country of his birth... Ryan Giggs! That guy could have donned the 3 lions and played that wide left role they were crying out for.
He didnt.. though he played for the English schoolboys.. yet he didnt and doesnt get any hassle for his decision and that was at a time when the clubs had the foreign rule to deal with.
A class act!!
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Phigo20 (post 41), please be careful when being so smug. No matter how good one's spellchecker is, it won't point out when you've used a verb (license) in place of a noun (licence).
Thank you.
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The bloodline argument should work both ways, and by so doing would to some extent address the perceived anomaly to which Chick refers (re refugees, etc.) and to the matter of passportholders.
Not only should the (grand)child of a Scot be automatically eligible to play for Scotland, but the (grand)father of a Scot - or where any child as yet unborn would be qualified by birth - should be likewise.
This would mean that by obtaining a UK passport, a player SHOULD become eligible to play for Scotland, etc., because his son (or, indeed, daughter) would be a natural-born UK national.
If the Novos were to become UK passportholders, any future child of theirs (or any child by aliens having acquired British citizenship) would be British, and could be expected to grow up supporting and wanting to play for HIS home country (e.g. Scotland).
For the respective FAs to say "blood is all that matters" is a truly evil comment, as evidenced by too many 20th century conflicts to count - and it seems some still haven't learned that people are people, and that's an end to it.
Of course, it's difficult to address all of the legal potentialities to claim eligibility - place of birth, nationality of parentage (legally, the father's nationality is NOT a valid qualification unless you're going to DNA test everyone to ensure that the assumed father is indeed parent of the child in question), residence, and several others - but lawyers are paid huge salaries precisely in order to address such difficult matters.
It should be possible for anyone - wherever born in the world, whatever their parentage - to aspire to play for Scotland, or any other country. It should be clear precisely how and in what circumstances eligibility would be established, and the player should have the option of striving for that or not as he sees fit.
If holding a passport of a particular country is not an indication of nationality, then what is worth?
EU law re restriction of trade - discrimination between nationals of different EU states is unlawful (except, in limited cases, where national security is concerned), and the current position will only endure until a particular player (such as in a Bosman-type case) takes his case to the European Court and wins his case, as he surely would!
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Chick, are you trying to say that National team football selection should not be dictated by the players country of origin?
Perhaps all the young men playing today and tomorrow in the amateur and junior leagues of Scotland could offer their services to nations such as Georgia, Montenegro and Azerbaijan?
They might even make it to the bench?
21st Century Colonial Football!
Total football,total rubbish.
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like the one from English boy if Arsenal and Chelsea and Man U etc etc continue to pose as English teams how can the fill an England team ..maybe get John Barnes Back from Jamaica!!!!!
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Professional Football is by the term used a profession. Its a job much as working in a bank is a job and whether we like it or not is governed legally not by the executives that control the associations but by the employment courts in UK and Europe.
Could you imagine the outcry if for example Alex Salmond recruiting a new secretary disqualified a young lady because she was English or Spanish with UK residency even though the both were the most qualified for the position advertised.
Im Scottish and frankly if the starting XI at the next game were all pakistani immigrants it would not worry me provided the were selected as the best XI available.
Scotland has a rich and vibrant history in the world game im all for retaining it but we have to move with the times the law is set by our elected representatives on our behalf employment and immigration laws are set to protect our rights. Why do we give non-elected executives the powers to act illegally when we would not accept that in any other profession and walk of life.
Chick you are right and they are wrong, legally, morally and humanly.
Is it me or did i miss something in the USA but they just elected a president who is half Kenyan I think we can afford to let a spaniard who qualifies for our nation under residency to pull on the blue shirt....but only if he is good enough.
I lost count of the amount of Aussies, Kiwis and Africaans that have worn the famous blue of scotlands rugby team (and even a couple of englishmen) and none let us down or were less passionate than their 'born and bred' scots team mates.
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One last point take a snap shot of the make up of Scottish Infantry Regiments of the line fighting overseas and you will find a match of scots/english/irish /africans/aussies/canadians/kiwis/nepalese and fijians (lots of fijians) yes they serve the United Kingdom but they fight under the historic regimental flags of generations of Scottish Line Regiments whats this to do with football??? nothing whats it to do with this article???? a lot.
Lets have the same standards for all things scottish lets embrace the modern world and lets be proud of our place in the history of the world and proud of what we can still contribute. Fairness & Equality.
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The Lisbon Lions days are extinct, like the dodo and I thought dinosaurs. but the last are not, they are running the SFA.
Novo with a British passport IS eligible to play for Scotland (but not England) as almunia with British passport IS eligible to play for England (but not Scotland). These are FIFA rules cf Klose, Padolski etc for Germany. If they are not selected they are not selected.
A British passport does not automatically make you eligible for all 4 countries, there are other rules as well.
Quite a few years ago, my friend told his mother that I was having Sunday lunch with them because I was a friend by choice, whilst hse had lunch with them because of an accident of birth. Think about it. If Novo was a better footballer, he would be playing for Scotland when he got his passport. The suited dinosaurs would be instructing the manager to select him.
I'm English and always relish the England/Scotland encounters. Novo would be as fiercely Scottish as anyone in the team, because he openly admits to wanting to play for Scotland. Not because he never set foot in Scotland and is eligible because his grandfather drank whiskey and ate haggis.
The test will come when the example is a better fottballer. It will be a rare case, because if he were a better footballer, he would be playing for Spain.
May be a 10 year old Jorge Mayor comes to Scotland and at 16 years old gets a British passport. And is then selected to play for Scotland. He plays, guaranteed.
Jorge Mayor is Spanish for George Best.
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Forget about the different scenarios painted by Chick Young and others. It doesn't matter how long or what the connection is with Scotland a player may or may not have. The difference with our country (and with England Northern Ireland and Wales) is that by giving into the Nacho case we would lose our national team to a British 11. Think about it - Nacho doesn't get a SCOTTISH passport; he gets a BRITISH one. (has the penny dropped yet?).
This being the case then Nacho can play for any of the home nations(penny still not dropped?) Ok let’s look at the Premiership - 50% players are foreigners (including Scots Welsh and Irish) which means 50% born in England - ALL (presumably) HOLDING A BRITISH PASSPORT.
Lets say 20% of these players have been capped by England (penny dropped now?) which leaves around 150 top professionals all eligible to play for Scotland (or Northern Ireland and Wales) BECAUSE OF THEIR PASSPORT.
Mr Burley would now has a massive pool of players all eligible for the national team.
FIFA will put up with that for about 5 minutes.
So all you 'Nacho for Scotland' supporters' try using a little grey matter before you post a blog on a website or comment on a radio station or in the national press. The powers that be have saw this years ago and are now hiding behind the 'gentleman's agreement' scenario because on this occasion THEY HAVE GOT IT RIGHT and their real motive is to keep the 4 nation separate in the football world
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The old, blazered duffers in their dusty club probably only had the best interests of the four home nations at heart. What is wrong with only nationals, or sons or grandsons of nationals, playing for a country?
How would you like it Chick, if Scotland were to face a third class footballing nation in a World Cup qualifier, only to find that they had granted a team of Brazilians passports of convenience? You wouldn't like that one bit, especially if Scotland were well beaten by those mercenaries and knocked out of the qualifiers.
I realise that your job description requires you to be controversial - and you have succeeded. And, to be fair, you probably had the best interests of Scottish international football at heart. But I believe that the old duffers not only used their hearts, but also their heads, all those years ago when they set the eminently sensible rules regarding bloodlines or birthrights.
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I think Mcgeady playing for ireland is laughable, people ask him on his holidays wheres he from and of course he says he is scottish, cause thats where he was born and grew up. you shouldnt be allowed to play for the country of your parents or grandparents......its a joke. McGeady is as irish as the queen.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I give you Andy Driver, Hearts.
Born in Oldham with English parents. Moved to Scotland as a young boy. Played schools football for Scotland....even scoring a goal against England. Yet he cannot play for Scotland?....because of said "gentleman's agreement"?
I'm sure his Scottishness isn't in question here but what gives Nacho Novo the opportunity to play for Scotland but this young man raised and educated in Scotland cannot?
The "gentleman's agreement" is so fundamentally wrong it's absurd. A player born say in England with dual parentage..ie a mother from Scotland, father from Wales can play for any of the home nations. The player may have certain leanings for either country but more likely to be the country he is brought up in or whatever country is pressed upon him by his parents. How can the rules distinguish whom he should play for?
Although once he has played international football for any association not including schools, but starting at under-21 level he has to remain with that country and cannot then play for another.
Did Andy Driver have to play for Scotland schools?...because he went to school here?
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To no. 83. I think your queen can play for germany but I'm sure she isn't irish.
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