Final flourish leaves Lions lamenting what might have been
Saturday evening, Johannesburg
Amid the euphoria of a record-equalling Lions victory in South Africa, captain Paul O'Connell encapsulated best the prevailing mood.
It struck him, he said, immediately the final whistle sounded at Ellis Park.
No doubt it will continue to gnaw away at the proud Irishman long after the dust has settled on one of the greatest, if not successful, Lions series ever.
"After we have got over enjoying this, we might be filled with regret," he said. "But that is sport. It can be so cruel...We could be looking at 'what ifs?' for a long time."
Saturday might have been the crowning glory of O'Connell's career. He might have been up there alongside the legendary Lions captains, Willie-John McBride and Martin Johnson, in leading a successful mission to South Africa.
Instead, after events in Durban and, particularly, Pretoria over the past two weekends, his consolation was merely a first victory in his sixth Lions Test.
But boy, it was some win, and should be a considerable comfort. The way this pride of 2009 summoned such intensity, emotion and élan to their game after the agony of their last-second defeat in the second Test was a staggering achievement.
South Africa had only lost twice at their spiritual home in 19 Tests since their readmission to Test rugby in 1994, and not since France last stormed the fortress in 2001.
But the Lions, much to the surprise of this observer and many others, not only summoned the furies for a third successive week, but produced the same emphatic 28-9 scoreline by which McBride's 1974 Lions beat the Boks in Pretoria.
Heroes were not hard to find.
Full-back Rob Kearney continued to look every inch a Lion, Tommy Bowe again showed what a talent he is, this time at centre, while alongside him Riki Flutey had a huge game defensively as well as creating the second of Shane Williams' tries.
The front five established a superb platform, allowing Martyn Williams and Jamie Heaslip to show off the full range of their back-row skills.
As beaten Boks captain John Smit admitted: "They were all over us in every department."
Every player seeking some redemption for recent woes found it with aplomb.
Phil Vickery, given a chance to assure the abiding memory of his Lions career was not his mauling by "The Beast" in Durban, responded superbly.
The first scrum of the game, when Springboks hooker Chiliboy Ralepelle popped up to concede a penalty, was hugely symbolic, and set the tone up front.
Vickery, the only player left who also featured in the Lions' last Test victory, in Brisbane in 2001, trooped off after 55 minutes to a deservedly warm reception.
Shane Williams, who conceded beforehand he had "beaten himself up" over his struggles on this tour, was a liberated force, coming off his wing to good effect and finishing off his tries like the World Player of the Year he is.
Ugo Monye also unleashed the frustration of his first Test foibles with a clenched-fists roar to celebrate his 70m interception try that took the Lions clear.
It meant that over the series they out-scored the Boks seven-five on tries, and 74-63 on aggregate points.
But O'Connell was not about to take any consolation in such statistical irrelevancies.
"Let's not lose track of the fact they won the series," he noted, adding finally: "That is all that matters."
Certainly these Lions did not achieve their ultimate goal. But the reception as they saluted their army of 30-odd thousand fans at the end told of other objectives fulfilled, not least a resurgence of pride and credibility after the calamity of 2005.
Those marvellous supporters, and no doubt those of you enthralled back home or elsewhere, appreciated the scale of the endeavour, even if they came up just short.
"What these players have achieved in five or six weeks should never be underestimated," said Ian McGeechan, who preserved his record of winning at least one Test on each of the four tours he has led as head coach over the past 20 years.
"They have played the world champions in their own backyard and given as good as they have got over three Tests, in one of the outstanding series I've been involved in."
As for O'Connell, the word he kept repeating time and time again as he pondered the emotions of this Lions experience was 'tough'.
Tough week. Tough series. Tough tour. Tough luck.
I'm Bryn Palmer and I specialise in rugby union but stick my oar into most other sports, apart from rowing.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~38~RS~)
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Not to sound too Spinal Tap...but there are very fine lines between winning and losing at the highest level.
The Lions did not have much luck in this series....probably because the 1997 Lions used it all up (the worst Lions team to win a series).
The series was lost in Durban really. They have been decimated by injures and it really is a credit to the the squad that they came through and won this test.
You could quibble with a few selections but that is true in every tour. But what you cannot quibble with is that the players loved McGeechan and the coaches......there has not been any murmurings of discontent like there were in 1993, 2001, and 2005. That is a credit to McGeechan because it's not easy to unify a 4 country party on a few weeks.
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Going forward for future tours:
1.the Lions need more time together;
2. the host country should be forced to play their test players in the provincial games; and
3. No midweek game between the 1st and second test.
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This tour surely, and particularly todays result, will put to death the absurd allegations that the lions should be scraped. As a spectator and a fan it has been enthralling to watch, and despite losing the series at least we won a test. Some of the cynics amongst us may try to point out that we were effectively playing a South African B side. We were without BOD, Roberts, Jenkins and Jones, not to mention of course we were playing an untried centre partnership with a winger at 13. Make no mistake coming into this game the momentum was ultimately with the Boks. Kearney had a huge game again but I'm tempted to give my man of the series to Tommy Bowe, who hardly put a foot wrong in all the time he played. Not that I want to get hung up on this issue but I don't feel S Williams is anywhere near as good as he was, the magic appears to have gone... Sure he scored twice today but all he needed was a good set of hands and the ability to run it in from distance - definition of what a winger is. Having said that though he did get better after his tries, and put in some big hits despite his small stature. I've been really impressed with the coaching staff as well this year, and barring any mishaps Geech is my pick to take on the Aussies in 4 years time. Should also make room for D Kidney as I think he's done a terrific job so far - not only for Ireland, but also Ireland A (Churchill Cup Winners). Has BOD got another 4 years left in him... Simon Shaw still made it and he's 3 years older the Brian will be in 2013. We shall see... we shall see...
We shouldn't be to down-hearted though, after all we did win the series - after you add up our scores over the 3 tests, the Lions take it by 11 points. Thats an internationally recognized procedure isn't it?
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Well done to the Lions, we must unsure that the Lions live on in the future. To me it is still a what could of been tour, the injuries being my main concern. We all would have loved to have seen Tom Shanklin, Leigh Halfpenny, Thomas O'Leary, Jerry Flannery start in the matches and then the injuries to Jamie Roberts, O'Driscoll, Gethin Jenkins really put a dent into things. Hope all you boys get well especially Adam Jones who is out for 6 months. Congarts to the Boks on a test series win and congrats to the Lions on their victory in not ideal circumstances at Ellis park today something that has not been done by a international team in a while.
I feel it is time for us to look at reducing the number of international or club matches these players are active in, maybe we should forget either the Autumn internationals or summer tours in the future. Lets have one or the other. Maybe if it is Lions year then we have no 6 Nations and have the Lions at home instead who knows?
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xpat73 wrote: Agreed with you totally.
Going forward for future tours:
1.the Lions need more time together;
2. the host country should be forced to play their test players in the provincial games; and
3. No midweek game between the 1st and second test.
4. Reduction of matches in season, international or club.
Also Euan Murray, Lee Bryne and anyone else I've missed, Lee hope you get that finger mended and get back to the Ospreys soon.
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Fantastic series - what an institution!!!!
Far bigger then the world cup in my opinion; though obv i wouldnt turn down Eng regaining the Web Ellis Trophy.
Massive respect for a group of players who came together with little time (professionalism being a hinderance rather than a benefit) and still taking on a team of world class operators (how many players could we legitimately claim are in the top 2 in their position in the world??Du Preez, Du Plessis, Matfield, Juan Smith, Botha, Spies, Habana surely all are!!!)
Once again magnificent series - would obv like to see more top flight players in the warm ups to make sure everyone involved is hyped and raring to go.
Will mirror a few peoples comments by raising concerns this is becoming a cash-cow for the SH teams; still rather it be like that than not at all!
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I would like to say thank you to the whole of the squad, coaches, management and conditioners. You have silenced all the 'nit picking critics' by playing with pride and continue the B&I Lions reputation as the top team to play for or against.
I have the deepest respect for SA, they are worthy world cup champions and showed on there autumn tour that they could regularly score from first phase against all but Scotland. As the tour party was announced and then reduced by injuries I thought that we would have been lucky to come second.
However, the tour party have produced performances that are far superior than the individual components, as everybody who has been on tours knows as you get to the last match and count who is still standing, have played wingers in the back row or centre etc, you hope that you can just keep in touch.
The B&I Lions today did so much more against the SA team of the future, by their total committment to each other (had SA got there noses in front early door it would have been a massacre).
Phil Vickery confronted his demons and set the tone for all to follow, and follow they did, one and all, none more than Shane whom finally overcame his nerves to put in an exemplary performance that deservedly received MOM. Kearney & Heslip have developed over the tour into potential future Lions captains.
SA had not become a poor side, they just could not develop a secure attacking platform to challange the makeshift Lions midfield partnership.
Given all the negative comments over the previous week I am sure that this match will have us all filling the piggy banks for the next 4 years and put doubts in the minds of SA for 12 years hence. Look out Australia, the B&I Lions are coming your way next.
Congratulations to all tourists
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Well it's all over! Well done South Africa you won the series 2-1 and proved you are the best team in the world! but a little humility please, it was that close. There has been debate about certain decisions and actions but hey that's sport. It was a great series and bodes well for the future.
Good luck in the tri-nations "GO SPRINKBOKS!"
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This Thirda Test proves everything that I have said before the 1st Test even began and have consistently said throughout the series:
1) that if we play Rugy at them and don't kick we will beat them, they'll open up
2) That kicking to them is a waste of time
3) Ugo Monye is very good at running in straight lines
4) Shane Williams is a really good, play a type of game that will suit him ie keeping the ball alive and you'll see what you get
5) Martin Williams should have been playing from the start in every Test side
6) What a wasted opportunity this will be that we approached the game trying to out muscle them and instead we should have focused on playing our game as they wont be able to handle it
We won that game because we did not play into their strengths, we kept possession and they couldn't touch us. WShen box kick billy ie Ellis came on and we started kickig to them they looked good, started coming back into the game even though it was for about 4 minutes it still showed what happens when you kick to them, Steyn wiull blast you off the park.
What a shame, let's wait another 4 years for mass bouts of insecurity about whether we should try and contain the opposition or just pick our best players and play a style of Rugby that was present when we had a our greatest years in NZ and SA in the seventies.
Sad that I predicted this from the outset, wish I had been wrong.
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Well here SuperGedwards9 maybe you should apply for the job of head coach for Australia 2013 eh? or better still build a bridge and get over it!
some of your points are like the Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream flavour - Half Baked. S Williams for example, did not deserve to be man of the match, in my opinion. He didn't create any of the 3 Lions tries he was just in the right place, at the right time to finish them off. Nothing more. Aside yes from a few good tackles, particularly against Mayfield was it?
Why Ellis was brought on? I don't know... Why he was touring in the first place? Again questionable. And again we had so many players capable of breaking through the South African line, and regrettably supergedwards is right again we kicked away, when the ball was in out hands far too much in the first and second tests. Ah what might have been...
p.s i wish you had been wrong as well...
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I've read many posts over the last few days saying that the Boks would stuff the BIL in the last test. I (half-heartedly) ventured to suggest that the BIL would not be 'spanked' as one blogger put it, but would give them a good game. Well, they did.. I am the first one to admit that the Boks team contained 10 or 11 players that would not make the first, cutting edge Boks 15, but the Lions were 'weakened' too - Jenkins, Jones, BOD, Roberts et al - and far from being 'spanked', they comfortably beat a very good Boks side (if not second string, say one and a half string) by 17 points.
Main point: the Lions must continue! Ask Saffers about this tour and the stiff competition the Lions provided (the first 2 tests were close. Very close).. The Lions can and should continue to tour the SH and will provide robust opposition to NZ, Boks and Aussies..
2nd point: Many bloggers have championed players from their own country, region, county or club and rightly so in many cases. For instance, I'm Welsh, a lifelong Scarlet supporter and I think Mark Jones is up there amongst the best wings in the world. He didn't get picked. Ok, so I get behind the ones who did. And that is what is missing from many blogs.. Shane this, Vickery that, O'Gara this, Mears that, etc etc.. Being picked for the Lions is the pinnacle of a player's career - over and above being picked for your country (not my opinion - taken from numerous Lions' quotes).. In the end, there are 1000s of rugby supporters who would each have their own preferences on team selection and no squad could possibly please every one of them - so get behind the one that has been picked! I have.. Yes, I've torn my hair out sometimes and jumped into the air with joy at such skilful displays at other times.. And that's the way it is.. The Lions were chosen: Wales, England, Scotland and Ireland players. Go with it, for better or for worse. On this occasion, better. A 2-1 defeat could have been a 2-1 win, or better. I am very optimistic for the future - roll on Australia!
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Well what a test series.
I just cannot believe there are some people questioning the future of lions tours and what a tour it has been.
Can SA really hold their heads high after their series victory? I feel they fell short in many departments and although being world champions/bully boys they were shown to be distinctly average more often than not during this tour.
Glad for vickery and the way he "got one over the beast" to show his ridiculous amount of caps really are worth something and that some clown who cant really cant scrummage is better than him was a good way to bow out of international rugby. (IM welsh BTW!)
Adam Jones and Matthew rhys set them up last week and the english boys finished them off this week. I thought it was pathetic how SA wore white arm bands "Justice" for Bakkies it may have been a legitimate clear out but adam jones is out for six months bakkies is out for two weeks missing one game lets get some perspective here. If you cant do the time dont do the crime and all that!!
Congratulations to the lions Anyhow!
SA becoming increasingly lucky and "PDV lets blind people just 'cos thats sport" what a clown the sooner he slips out of rugby and the spotlight the better.
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Great win in the final test,the what ifs will always be there but no one can question the heart and commitment of any of the players. Heros one and all. To those of you who questioned the leadership of POC all the way through this tour hang your heads in shame, a true leader, strong after each loss and humble in victory. Led from the front as he always does, puts his head where others are afraid to put their foot. One of the games true gentlemen - Good on you Paul, looking forward to watch you lift the HC again next year. I echo the comments of an eailier post - regardless of your country or club, on this tour we were all lions so lets support the team as picked and get behind our playes and captain.
That said I'm looking forward to the tour in four years time - hope we get a game in Perth, it would be good to see some good rugby without having to travel a few thousand miles!!
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brilliant series, saffers just about deserved their series win as they made fewer errors when it really mattered.
only complaint was the one-eyed south african commentators we had to endure but they're still nothing on the aussies.
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My last comment was before the second test in Pretoria,when I said that the series would be won by 5.00 pm on that saturday.It was.
Making 10 changes for the last test gave the Lions a great chance and the Lions took it with both hands and all credit to them.
Jake White said of this Bok team after they won the World Cup that they were still a young side and the best was still to come.
This is the worrying part as to my way if they had played to their full potential the difference between the two sides would have been more evident.
Unfortunately we don't have Jake White/Eddie Jones anymore,we have Mr de Villiers.
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yes, very enjoyable series
and this final test win was well deserved
but at the end of the first half I thought the ghost of ROG had struck again....less than a minute to go..england are given a let-off with a penalty well inside their 22...surely just waste a bit of time and then kick it out...or even go for the sticks! that would have been cheeky..but no! boot up field, fail to find touch and then give away a penalty..3 points gifted to the Boks...
they are great players and inevitably will occasionally make mistakes..but that was just dumb!
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Well done Lions, only one side in it on Saturday, two magic tries.
Another wounderful game of cut and thrust
And the knee in the back incident? No comments
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Well SJBCAPE, I did not see the knee in the back as malicious. What supprises me however is the lack of consistency. Why was the Lions player (Sheriden?) not cited for clearing out the ruck al a Botha the week before?
Great series, can't wait for the next one down under. Well done to both teams for putting on such a great display.
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Hi guys,
I was at the stadium yesterday, just a few points I thought I would raise.
1)You have a fantastic set of fans, they were always jovial and good natured.
2)I just didn't understand how they could celebrate like they had just won the world cup, whilst the following factors need to be taken into account:
2.1)We have an absolute muppet of a coach
2.2)We were resting players for the Tri Nations, and that was basically our 2nd side
2.3)You guys get to pick the best players from 4 nations
3)Just in case you think us South Africans condone Schalks actions in the 2nd test, what he did was incredibly stupid and filthy and he deserves all the punishment he gets (though a few of the lions players were a bit naughty in other parts of the game & could have been cited)
4)I hope Peter De Villers would wake up and realise what a muppet and token coach he actually is. He landed up with Jake Wites world cup winning team and just had to keep doing the same things, yet he is unravelling a great team. Oh and he makes our nation look like a bunch of idiots with his comments.
5)What would you think the outcome would be if we had a southern hemisphere "Lions" side with the best of South Africa, New Zealand and Australia play against the British and Irish Lions?
6)Finally, it was a great series, and I can't wait to have your fans back here, they were awesome!
Ps: to the two fans who were in front of us with their "Davey Crocket" hate on and their massive flags, I hope you preferred my mates version to your chant of "Lions, Lions", with "2:1, 2:1"
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Nice to see WillyGilly1990 Shane Williams bashing society is still going strong.
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Thanks sparklejonesy for great comments and no bias, it is appreciated here, as i for one have been getting really annoyed at people who will not put thier national bias aside for 3 weeks very 4 years.
I went to N.Z. on last tour and despite aweful rugby i met great rugby supporters from all 4 nations. I will be going to Aus after missing this series. I dont care who wears the Lions shirt as long as they give thier all, which i think everyone of them did. I am English through and through but take my hat off to the Welsh front row of last week, they were imense. Kearney has to be find of the tour, and thank heavans some one in interbational rugby has finally used Shaw, this guy should have 50/60 caps for England. Thank you to all the 4 nations for providing the best series for years.
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Following all the consternation & heated comments following the second test, I just wanted to congratulate the Lions on living up to their name by giving the Boks a bit of mauling in the third test. I thought the BILs would be easy pickings, but it was the Boks who lost the "Spring" in their step. The BILs showed good character.
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What can I say, first Scottish player to play in a test side and we win!!! hey Ho! great number of what ifs.
Overall pretty impressive squad and full credit to the team who did step up to the mark yesterday!
Long may the Loins continue!!!
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@ Luke, #19
Gracious and thoughtful comments, good on you. Spent a long time in SA myself lately (business not pleasure alas) and I know that PDV's comments and so on don't reflect what the great majority of enthusiastic, welcoming and hugely knowledgeable fans think.
Sure, the Boks rested some stars but I'm guessing there must be a bit of disappointment that none of those coming in really put their hands up for tri-nations selection. Saw Morné Steyn playing for the Bulls in the S14 and thought he should be a certain starter - but looked ordinary yesterday. Likewise Kankowski and pretty much the whole back 5 with the exception of Fourie. You also seem to have a problem at hooker - du Plessis doesn't look in top form and Ralepelle was horribly exposed at scrum time. How long before Smit goes back where he belongs? And don't forget that the Lions had a lot of guys missing too - nearly half the original party by the end of yesterday's game, when the team on the field included the fourth-choice (not originally selected) hooker, tight-head and blindside and a midfield pairing of a scrum-half and a winger.
I guess the celebrations are because the Lions are a scratch side of guys who spend 3 years and 11 months trying to beat each other. Getting them to gel is a big ask. Same goes for the fans - it's a refreshing novelty cheering on players who are normally the opposition. You learn, perhaps grudgingly, to respect their ability, but having them on what's now your side is a big difference. I was yelling at Ugo Monye yesterday just as much as, say, when Shane Williams scored in the grand slam decider last year. But come February at Twickenham he'll be the enemy again... So we maybe all get a bit more enthusiastic than the series scoreline might justify (and just to be clear, the Boks were worthy 2-1 winners for me).
BTW there was, IIRC, a Baa-Baas style northern hemisphere v southern hemisphere game for charity a couple of years back, which the southerners won easily. Not sure a Lions v Tri-Nations game would go the same way: the latter would be far stronger on paper but as I say it's about making a team out of usually-opposing individuals. On yesterday's evidence, at least, the Lions can still do that.
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Agree with ScarletIeu in post 11.
There were disappointments in original squad selection for all, but at the end of it, the selection was right (except perhaps Croft should have been there from the start). The point was they were all our boys irrespective of which 6N team and they have done us proud.
I would question the comment that Shane 'only needed a good pair of hands to get his tries'. I would add the tactical nous of positioning himself in the right place and the stamina and speed to finish ahead of the defence. Nothing should be taken away from the offloads by Heaslip and especially Flutey to make the tries, which were slick.
I was a bit concerned about the Boks wearing of the armbands, it sets a dangerous precedent, that if unchecked sees rugby falling into the contemptuous world of the round ball game.
All in all, very staidfying performance. Great to see Vickery tame the Beast and Martyn show his class in the loose. Glad to see POC lead from the front and good to hear the plaudits for Ross Ford. Kearney was superb and Bowe and Flutey made a great pairing. Bowe definitely Lion of the series.
Only blot was Shaw's reckless knee-job. Deserved yellow and surely a ban. Such a shame as he's a brilliant player.
Good memories, plenty of might-have beens, but the Boks won and well done to them.
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Tim Sims at 24.
Agree (although Monye will be the 'enemy' come the 6N!). I was at the North v South game - it was many moons ago, Serge Blanco and Naas Botha were still at their prime. I can tell you the Southern Hemisphere stuffed us good and proper, but then two scratch sides, minimum preparation. One side wanted it more - somewhat.
A tri-N team would be interesting, but it all depends on how they gel. If you just 'turned up and played' the Baa-Baas would wipe the floor with the opposition every time. preparation would be key.
Still think this is all a cosy club and the likes of Argentina and Pacific Islands are shunted into the background. Maybe something should be done (A warm up test against the Argies or the PI being allowed to tour with their strongest team perhaps?) Then there's Japan and the IRB's disinterest in developing any nations aoutside the big 8. Oops, I've started...
Anyway, great series. well done to all.
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Luke-SAfan - Post 19:
Good comments, I agree with a lot of what you say. In response to your question about celebrating like they'd won the world cup. Paul O'Connell, Lions captian, actually said in the interview after the game that he hoped people didn't mistake the celebrations for some kind of victory lap. They were doing a lap to thank the fans who'd spent thousand of pounds to follow the team and stayed loyal and voiciferous until the end. It was just a big thank you to the fans, and he then acknowledge that they were under no illusions that they had lost the test series.
No winning mentality intended, just a lap of the stadium for the fans!
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Well played Lions.
To all the lovers of "Sensationalism", fans & jornalists alike; here is a sensational story...
......RUGBY. The greatest game played by real men, who get hammered left, right and centre and at the end of the game shake hands.
Cant wait for the tri-nations!
Go bokka!
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Talerddig, no, there was another one more recently, at Twickenham; I think it was for tsunami relief or something. One of the Bergamascos - I forget which, but he was the token Italian - scored the only try for the NH in a comprehensive hammering IIRC.
Completely agree re developing nations - I see the Japanese winger Ohata has broken Campese's record for international tries. Not in the same league as a player (who is?) but I bet he doesn't get the recognition he deserves.
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Glad I missed that one, Tim!
I hope Japan get the WC. Touring teams to Argentina should really be thinking of warm-up games against Uruguay - it's only across the River Plate - and the 6N maybe should think of a 2nd tier with a play-off game against the winners and the wooden spoons in the main stream. Give the Romanians etc something to strive for. (and yes, I know Wales would have been participating a few years back. I was unlucky enough to have my best ever seat at Cardiff when the Romanians beat us. But they've never been allowed to progress. Like a few more teams I could mention)
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The BOKs won because of one of the best clutch kicks you will ever see. The pressure was immense.
I don't know how many fit players were actually available for selection yesterday, but the 15 that played were awsome.
I thought the Shaw kneeing was deliberate foul play, and have no problems with the yellow card, or the short ban he deserves, however, he seemd to make the difference in the last 2 tests.
Perhaps the Lions players can wear armbands saying juctice 4 after he gets his ban, but the BOKs scrum half won't be out for 6 months.
The series will be remembered for great, compbative, rugby, gouging and stupid comments by the BOKs coach.
But for the Morné kick, the series would have been drawn, which would have been a great result.
The BOKs were worthy winners overall, but the margin was negligible.
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Great to see some English players in the team yesterday!! I dont care what people say on here but, you have to beat up the Boks upfront if you want to win a test match. Thats what the English did yesterday. Worsley tackled like an absolute mad man and this allowed spilt ball to be picked up and used by the flair players. Vickery and Sheridan were great in the rucks, mauls and at scrum time and I lost count on how many double tackles they did together. Shaw was his normal destructive self and Fluety showed hes as good as any other centre in the Northern Hemesphere!!!! All in all I think the Lions played very well yesterday but, the Boks deserved the Series win!
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i think it really rankles a lot of english fans that shane is a great player and they have had a hard time of it when he's been picking up grand slams, scoring for wales against the southern hemisphere sides and winning the IRB player of the year
now they are slating him because he didn't step anyone for his tries - was the same critism dished out for monye for his run in tries in the warm ups?
grow up lads - shane will be remembered as an all time great, rightly so. get used to it
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Thanks Bryn for your blogs throughout.
I wanted to ask you about the possibility of playing warm-up matches elsewhere, but see 26/talerddigthank has beaten me to it.
If we did want a slightly longer tour, with higher intensity warm-up matches, then should we consider warm-up matches against Argentina or the Pacific Islands? I'm assuming here events like the Churchill Cup are still more suitable for North American and other European sides as stands.
The IRB and the individual rugby unions would love the profile of the matches and helps them develop their game (+ any extra tourism that the Lions bring). I'm confident that many Lions fans would love the opportunity to visit say Tonga+Fiji before NZ or Argentina before Australia (though I appreciate the expense will be too much for others).
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MorrisDavies I resent remark, I was only making the point that people should see through the fact that he scored 2 tries, and shouldn't really give him a man of the match performance. There where a lot of good players on the pitch yesterday in that red jersey, and certainly Shane could possibly be considered to be one of them. But in my opinion, no. As I've already pointed out, and you can't deny this, was just in the right place at the right time to finish off his 2 tries. Hey don't get me wrong that's a skill in its self, I know I wouldn't have been anywhere near there had I been playing at 11 (the lions could get desperate...) But that in my opinion shouldn't have got him the man of the match performance, sorry...
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WillyGilly - a good point. Flutey, Kearney and Heaslip stepped up to the plate also (sorry, i know it's not baseball). Shane did more than score tries yesterday. I saw some great cover S-H work for example (and he was turned over and he sliced a clearance, so hold the spot in Olympus...)
Wileszie, I think there were more than english on the park yesterday, but i have a feeling we've all been down this road before. A solid team performance from the British and Irish Lions, both sides were weakened but the Lions wanted it more.
I have joined the Phil Vickery resurrection society. Well done Vicks!
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I agree Shane was lucky to get MOTM but these things (a) are pretty meaningless; and (b) tend to be given to backs who do the pretty stuff rather than those who do the grunt work at set-piece/breakdown or in defence. Phillips, Heaslip or Sheridan, probably in that order, for me.
Having said that he did look very sharp - better than he's played since the 6N opener. You don't get into a position to take 2 try-scoring passes by accident. And if he'd chipped Steyn rather than cross-kicking he'd probably have scored 3.
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I just want to know what was going on in the centre when Flutey got injured. Why did Geech put on Ellis and move Mike Phillips (a position he has never played before) when we had James Hook on the bench. Just dont understand!!!
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Phillips has filled in as an emergency centre for the Ospreys several times, once for Wales, and, briefly, for the Lions against the (Gauteng) Lions on this tour. Point is, I think, that he's much more solid in defence than Hook, and the Lions had no need at all for Hook's fancy bag of tricks when looking to close the game out (although he'd have had more of a chance with the kick that Kearney missed). Thought it was mad myself at the time but Phillips' defence in the last quarter was awesome. An inspired move.
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Methinks Willgilly1990 has never played rugby. Shane Williams is head and shoulders above the other left wingers on this tour even when off form. Moyne and Fitzgerald, although very good players, are youngsters learning their trade and were never going to perform under the pressure cooker cauldren of the first 2 tests. Huge mistake not picking him for that 1st test. Get off his back Mr Willgilly and say something positive about how well he played yesterday. He read both opportunities perfectly, and reacted well to sniff the chances before they appeared. An instinctive player that anyone who knows about rugby recognises as being one of the very best. He scares even the best defences and has also played better defensively than the other left wingers on this tour. Well done Lions - brilliant yesterday and very very unlucky not to have won the series. And well done to Vickery - another top player that all those who know the game recognise has been unfairly criticised because of a combination of bad refeering in the 1st test, and the shortcomings of others around him in that 1st test scrum.
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Yes a great series, between two great teams. Anyone who even dreams/thoughts of shelving the Lions as a touring party can wake up and apologise. I have been (like so many others ex players and fans) spellbound by the games. The tour had everything including its share of controversy. Just look at the number of posts on the blog about Burger and the eye gouging. First and foremost well done the Lions for a couragoeus display and great last test win, and congrats to RSA for their series win. After all the debate, have to put in a word for the ref yesterday - he showed a control and professionalism that was missing in the first two games.
Watched the game in a bar yesterday and the atmosphere was roudy but good natured between supporters, with SA fans in the majority. One of them nodded at me in apreciation at one point in the game when he saw a great bit of play from the lions....thats what this game is about, and lets not forget it! I saw some great play on both sides yesterday and throughout the series. For Lions Kearney was a revelation more Byrne than Byrne almost. I was really impressed with Jones too yesterday, so solid and enterprising, how many times did he just move the ball, just run it at the boks, that was great to see. For SA Steyn really impressed me with his speed strength and determination. Du Preez is a genuinely great scrum half and Brian Habana agin scored a fantastic try in the second test.
One thing everyone seems to agree on is PDV...enough said there.
Finally thanks to those on the SA side for their comments in support of fairness and keeping the game free of foul/dangerous play. This applies to both sides and at all levels. I felt that in keeping with some arm bands worn by the SA players Justice was done yesterday, though it was not in the way they meant it.
And I can't wait till the next tour.....
Ps Yebogo, thanks for your congrats, same to you.
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WillyGilly1990, I was supprised that he won man of the match yesterday but I personally think that Williams' performance yesterday was the the best wing performance by any of them in the 3 tests - I stand by the opinion that he should have been in the test team from the begining.
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What a match! Great to see us give them a hiding. Should have been more points.
Thought most of the team played really well, particularly Heaslip. S Jones has really impressed me in the last coule of games very solid at 10.
Phillips tackled well although his distribution was slow at times and made a good job of switching to centre as did Bowe. S Williams took the second try very well but I wouldn't have given him man of the match. I reckon Flutey deserved it. Glad Vickery regained some self respect. Great game and a great team performance. Well done the Lions!
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Great blog, great tour. My emotions are all over the show, but there has been a lot to digest and learn from the tour for coaches, players and followers, and the home countries would do well to take the basic lessons on board. If they do, the next Lions tour will do better.
With no disrespect intended to anybody involved, I for one think that this Lions tour was built on the foundation of several years of relatively ordinary Six Nations competitition, and one win in three tests should be seen as a pretty good reflection on the Lions' coaches and players. A change of vision will be needed to improve on that.
In general - I emphasise that phrase - the home unions need to look at improving their domestic nurseries to augment their ability to select international-quality players in good form and peak condition for every position and for every test. The sustained aggression and competiveness of test players and potential test players needs to be stimulated, not curbed: rugby simply isn't a game for cissies. The level of domestic competition needs to be stepped up, so that there will be no room for tactically naive players at the highest level, and so that every position in every national team is challenged for by several properly case-hardened, seasoned and competitive contenders.
I appreciate that there will be folk who think that those things are already being sufficiently done, but they are simply wrong, because the home nations do not fare as well as player numbers and funding suggest they should do against the southern hemisphere "big three". I also know that there will be those among whom the focus which I suggest will be unpopular, not least because a focus on international competition is sure to have implications for club competition. Still, I submit that only if the necessary things are done will the Lions re-assume the standing and re-achieve the results which they enjoyed in the seventies.
I'd like that, and I think many other folk would. The Lions can do their following proud, and to my mind deserve every support in doing that. If it can't be achieved, we shall forever be dining on the scant dish of "might-have-been". And isn't that the curse of Tantalus afflicting every reader of this blog right now - that it really might have been?
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Thanks to the Saffer supporters who congratulated us on our victory, well done to them on their series win.
22.yebogogogo
Following all the consternation & heated comments following the second test, I just wanted to congratulate the Lions on living up to their name by giving the Boks a bit of mauling in the third test. I thought the BILs would be easy pickings, but it was the Boks who lost the "Spring" in their step. The BILs showed good character.
Well said my friend amazing the turn around in your attitude, what a transformation..Lions from kitty cats to Bok bashes!!
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The way I look at sport is that you create your own luck and are ultimately responsible for your own destiny.
On these grounds the Lions should of never let South Africa back into the second test. We can complain all we like about the Burger incident, but you have to accept the referee's decision and get on with the game.
One thing I believe that has been lost in the third test euphoria was the fact that the Lions were playing a South African team with 10 changes. This weakened them. The Lions did play well though and deserved victory.
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Okay my earlier comments seem to taken slightly out of context. So comments 40 and 42 allow me a chance to redeem myself. My only quam with S Williams in yesterday's match was that he got the man of the match award, in my opinion he didn't do enough to deserve it - but hey maybe that's just me. If you'll note I do say something positive about him in my previous post 3. Whilst I agree Shane stands 'head and shoulders' above Monye and Fitzgerald (albeit not height wise) he couldn't have been picked for the either of the first 2 tests as Geech said he was picking on form. On talent Williams wins hands down, on recent form however it had to be either of the others. Also I'd like it to be noted LionstobeatSA that I played at scrum half for several years. Okay so I haven't played since leaving school, but the boys who play rugby at my University are terribly big... I'm not...
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I think you need to say that had you three different referes the lions could have won 3-0. I know that sound ridiculous but seriously, vickery vs the beast in the 1st game, you saw what happened. 3rd test vickery vs the beast, you saw wat happened, theres no way shaw makes that much difference. I know your supposed to play to the referee but if the referee ties your arm behind your back then its hardly a fair contest.
On a positive note, the likes of Croft, Ferris, Roberts, Heaslip in the last test, Bowe before the tests, Byrne and Kearney have all anouced themselves as quality players.
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I also agree than Shane Williams should not have started the first two tests. In the midweek games prior to those matches he did not show enough to deserve a place in the strating line-up and was at times a liability to the team. He looked out of form and a bit lost.
Good on him however for playing exceptionally well in the final test and proving the doubters wrong. Its just unfortunate that his form on tour up to that point had been poor.
To use a football example, why play an out of form striker in a world cup just in the hope he may come good. Its a big gamble. When you have a three match test series, the Lions could not afford to give him the time to get his form back. He had his chance in the mid-week games to do that.
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@19
Yes SA rested players. The lions also made many changes, including positional ones. By rights we should have lost heavily. I guess SA rugby lacks strength in depth because 4 years ago NZ could have changed the full 22 and still stuffed the lions.
In answer to your question about a SH 'lions' team, sounds a lot like the all blacks to me (NZ and whoever they want to nationalise from the pacific islands), and it works pretty well.
What happened to all the rest of the SA rugby fans who have been trolling the BBC forums this past few weeks?
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I think many mistakes were made in the selection of the team and bench for the test series. I think it was the bench selection that let us down in the 2nd test which is why we lost. If we'd had Monye and Flutey on the bench instead of O'Gara and Williams it would have been a different story. Many people don't realise that Flutey could be perfectly good outside half and would provide cover in more positsions than O Gara whose been dreadful. Kearney could have kicked the goals if Jones had got injured as well. one thing the tour definately missed was a fit johnny wilkinson as bench cover. Ferris and Flannery were also big losses but Rees and Croft came through well, if only Williams had been fitter maybe he would have started the first two tests, (martyn that is.) Shane Williams should have started whihc is what most people knew , hes a big game player and relishes open matches. Bowe is a great player but he hasnt been the best winger in the union for many years. Form is only an indicator. Both williams's should have started the whole series in my mind.
team of the tour
15. Rob Kearney
14. Tommy Bowe
13. Brian O'Driscoll
12. Jamie Roberts
11. Shane Williams
10. Stephen Jones
9. Mike Phillips
8. Jamie Heaslip
7. Martyn Williams
6. Tom Croft
5. Simon Shaw
4. Paul O'Connell
3. Adam Jones
2. Matthew Rees
1. Gethin Jenkins
Subs
Ross Ford
Andrew Sheridan
Alun Wyn Jones
David Wallace
Harry Ellis
Riki Flutey/James Hook
Ugo Monye
If this team had stayed together it would have won the series - add in flannery, ferris and even wilkinson and the team would extremely strong. Even though roberts was so good i think hes a bit one dimensional and flutey should have been given more of a game in the tests. He was the best player in the six nations in my mind.
The lions should tour every two years or have some home matches after a tour, they are the best team in the world but they need more time together and more matches. Everyone could see how fast they were improving and given a few more matches theyd be world beaters. I say matches against france and new zealand at the end of this tour. I dont want it to be over and im sure the players feel the same way give them a months holiday in the bahamas and get em bk for some more rugby. Lions Rule!
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Congrats Lions - well deserved win from a SA fan. Loved watching game - some great rugby and some wonderful tries! One never likes to loose , but after all it is just a game and it is about the game. Rugby won on the day
The better team won - No excuses for 10 new players in the side. That was the side that represented SA and they lost. There are some really talented players in that group of 10 so we can't use that as an excuse - I thought they would do better but didn't.
I was really pleased that the Lions supporters had something to cheer about- heck they deserved it - the best supporters in the world!
Sorry that the tour is over but as I now live in Oz I look forward to the next Lions tour down under. I know who I'll be shouting for.
Hope the chariots carry the faithful home sweetly - enjoy the success and relish the victors spoils of the last test. Well done.
Ps. lets hope Poms go one better and win the ashes! (I do love OZ, awesome country and great people, but have a way to go before I support the cricket team)
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I am very disappointed with some comments of the likes of Smit, PDV etc throughout which have appeared to condone unacceptable play.
I actually saw Burger's act only recently and was speechless by it. I found it hard to see it as an accident. Then this nonsense about Botha. he was cited by a neutral, banned by a neutral and the appeal failed in front of a neutral. It's done, move on. Anything else is disrepute
The armbands and PDV's 'ballet' is a bit like Mourinho's untouchable attitude in football.
It detracts from a great performance from world champions and I hope the IRB will do something to stop this attitude from spreading.
Nobody is untouchable, irrespective of shirt.
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*Shane williams-
-Turned over 3 times (at least) yesterday
-Did very little apart from benefit from the brilliance of flutey and heaslip
-Ran in 2 tries that I believe any person with two functioning legs and one eye could have........brilliant
*Vickery
-Proved allun wyn jones and lee mears were the problem and that as suspected adam jones hasn't suddenly become a world class prop
*Let's not forget that this was a second string SA side
*Yes the lions had injuries but the best player in the last 2 games was Kearney and if not for an injury he wouldn't have started 2nd test....point being lions didn't really know the best side anyway
*Lions had everything to prove....on the back foot,fighting to save the brand/concept of the lions, SA whilst of course 'up for it' had nothing like the intensity of 1st/2nd test
*to the idiot who said Martyn Williams should of started all tests....why?the man realy needs to find a gym along with O'gara...if the SA had been as physical as last two tests he would of left in a body bag
*to another idiot who said POC had proved his critics wrong...how?we lost the series!!!!!
*Monye should never have been dropped for second test, great kicking, strong running, defencively superb.....and unlike shane had to actually use ability to intercept pass.....also mr williams would have been caught.
Incidently you lot do know we LOST THE SERIES, stop accepting mediocre, trying our best, doing the shirt proud and all other sound bites.....four nations SHOULD beat one, winning is evrything
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incredible sour grapes england2003,
Ran in 2 tries that I believe any person with two functioning legs and one eye could have?
any person with two functioning legs and one eye who kept up with the sprint and had the wherewithall to read the game and be in the right place at the right time to take the right pass and accelerate away from the opposition. Easy, ask anyone.
You sound like the Welsh myopics of the past who had it in for Jonny (angelic choirs) Wilkinson and Will Carling in the past. Wonder what you would have said if Shane Williams was an Englishman. Sad. The rest of your comments I won't even bother with, they are lamentable.
I don't see anyone basking in the glory of defeat here and winning isn't everything. that mentality leads to actively seeking to injure your opponents for the greater good. Bit like Test 2.
Best thing you should do is ignore the Lions tours, they are not your team. Contaminated by Celts and foreign coaches. Either you are stirring it for the fun or you have not watched any of the tour.
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Re: 27 by griffthemagicdragon
Hi Griff,
Sorry if I was misunderstood, I meant to say was that I didn't understand why the fans were jumping up and down and whooping and hollering at us SA fans after each 3 points / try like it was a world cup final.
Just didnt make sense to me and we had to remind them of "2-1"....
Anyway, I stayed in the box we were in for quite sometime after the game, and it was rousing to say the lease to see the players saluting the awesome fans you have on their "lap of honour".
I am pretty sure you guys would not have seen it on tv, but the high light of the day was to see all the BIL fans trying to beat our hapless security guards and try run across the field. Judging by some of the side steps your fans possess, you guys should sign them up for the Aus tour!
All in all a great set of fans and very knowledgable, I would welcome you chaps back here anytime.
On a side note, any of the fans who did tour our country, what are your thought and honest assessments of our country?
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england2003 as your name implies we know what players you support, please put the handbags away and not show National bias.
Monye did really well yesterday and took the interception well....did he actually create anything...did Shane Williams....no they did their jobs and finished.The only wing on the tour that created tries was Tommy Bowe.
Martyn Williams your comment is nonsense I'm not even going to reply to such a anti-welsh comment.
Phil Vickery-It's pretty obvious now that the Beast bored in the second test to blame Lee Mears and Alun Wyn Jones is incorrect.
All the players did well yesterday even the English ones;]
yes we lost the series but one kick was the difference that's it.
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We seem to like the words 'what if' and 'if only', but it does not make a difference to the scoreboard. The problem is that it seems to be in every post mortem of British rugby. I felt insulted when South Africa actually made ten changes to a team that beat us twice. It was as if the Lions winning did not matter. Our team's performance seems to have less impact when playing an opposing countries 'B' team, if that. We drew to the 'B' team, even thought we had enough experienced players to select. The Lions should have thumped them.
The other problem is that the opposing side is always taken to task about their 'fair' play, but I think that is a blinkered view on the game. The level of the wrong does not matter, it is the wrong.
My view is to play rugby and that is something we have fallen short of for decades (Kicking is not rugby).
I disagree with you, Bryn, on the greatest Lions tour ever. 1974 was the best ever. We won evry match execpt for the one draw.
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I reckon england2003 is a very bitter Clive Woodward in disguise... whilst winning is in some cases everything, when one loses one must do so gracefully and maintain a little bit of credibility and respect. You don't point fingers at certain players on the pitch stating 'This was your fault, you shouldn't even have been playing!'
The following applies to everyone (including myself I guess), we are all spectators, the people like Geech and co, who make the decisions know a hell of a lot more about rugby and the players than we do...
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No, he can't be SCW as he'd have been crying for Neil Back to start
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talerddig
'any person with two functioning legs and one eye who kept up with the sprint and had the wherewithall to read the game and be in the right place at the right time to take the right pass and accelerate away from the opposition. Easy, ask anyone.'
What are you on about??? for a start it was on williams' wing, it's not as though he tracked the play from centre ala o'driscoll or came seering in from the other wing, flutey and heaslip made both tries (especially flutey) and as for his speed??????????????WHAT SPEED, the guy is quick over 5-10 yards pureley down to his lack of height! WOW he managed to keep up with heaslip and flutey.......he was just lucky habanna wasn't playing (in fact seeing as the lions team was picked AFTER the boks side no doubt he wouldn't of played if habanna had) get over it, williams has always been over rated, people look at him and think everything he does is better than it is because he's not on a level playing field due to his lack of physicallity.........watch the game pal and see how many times he gets turned over...watch how everyone has their hand over the mouth when he gets tackled..........and if he had got the interception for Monye's try he WOULD of been caught...........get over it
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england2003- You really are a pratt
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England 2003 - Why do you think Martyn Williams needs to find a gym?
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get over what? He played. he scored two tries. The Lions won the game....
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Oh and by the way England 2003, O'Connell was behind Vickery in the first test, not AWJ. When Adam Jones came on the scrun shored up no end - and guess what, with the same second rows. Try watching the games and understand what goes on in the pack instead of criticising what you don't know.
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I would put at least 4 English wingers ahead of Monye never mind the likes of Shane Williams, Tommy Bowe, Tom and Max Evans etc etc.
Conclusion -Shane Williams try record speaks for itself that's why he got player of the year so I guess everyone in the world is wrong and u r right..typical English wum attitude.
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what a fantastic way to end a fantastic tour!!
though, apologies before-hand, im going to add my english support to Ugo Monye: who was roundly criticised for scoring 'easy run-in tries' and defending passionately (if not always effectively) in the warm up games by welsh fans, yet those same welsh fans are here praising little Shane for doing exactly the same thing yesterday...sorry guys but double standards? i agree that on raw talent Shane is so far ahead of every winger on tour (including my lion of the tour Tommy Bowe) that its scary, yet over the whole tour he didnt turn up: fact. he scored two fantastically taken tries yesterday AND mucked in (which i was critisised, by supergedwards i think, for saying he should do after his disappointing opening matches..."i told you so!?"), deserving full credit for a hugely reassuring performance yesterday, and as so remains one of my wing-idols (though im a fullback myself i have been seen on the occasional wing in my life :P) Monye also performed well yesterday, putting in the yards, helping with the hits and scoring a good breakaway try, so well done to him as well!
gripe over. its been such an awesome tour with so many "what if's?" that could have made the difference between winning and losing and its kept us all (english, welsh, scottish and irish) on the edge of our seats for the whole thing. this bunch of lads only lost twice! (yes ok both in the crucial tests...) over the month, and i'd have taken that any day after the masacre that was 2005.
proud of ALL of the 2009 lions, and eagerly anticipating the Aussie tour to come!! (spesh as half my family are over there...) and congratulations on a fantastic result today, which will, hopefully, stop this nonsense discussion of dumping the lions series!!
British and Irish Lions forever!!
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Croftalicious I thought Monye was on a level par with Shane on the tour, I would not call not raving about Shane.
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nice one flytaff, putting your brain to good use- forget my log in name,
I have been ctitical of england recently and certain players on tour....I have always believed s.williams was over rated, I guess as I compare him to a Mr J.Robinson...........why does Martyn Williams need a gym? he hasn't get the physicallity to cope with SH back rows, you saw yesterday at times he was thrown around like a rag doll, yes he does good work on the ground but that's not enough, he can't hit rucks and tackles well below his counterparts in the same position.....
Willygilly1990........winning is everything, even POC said this after the game when justifying the Lions'lap of honour I quote 'winning earns respect' this tour isn't about becoming great friends and getting drunk it's about winning, your mentallity and others like it is perhaps why when it comes down to it away from home there is something lacking.....fortunateley we had MJ and the crew in 2003 and also a much worse side in 2007 that were a disallowed try away from winning ANOTHER world cup!
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Can I say I thought Monye deserved his 1st test berth and yesterday's try hadf me out of my seat also. And not only am I Welsh, but a Wasps fan to boot!
(Oh yes, and Croft should have been named in the squad on day 1 and agree with your assessment of Mr williams)
The previous posting comment by another that he was fast because he is small gives hope to the hundreds of jockeys who tire of the horse racing game.
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Chaps chaps please calm down. I was at the match yesterday with my 10-year-old son who is THE most enthusiastic Lions supporter on the planet. So what can I add to this blog? Well first the atmosphere was electric. Hats off to all the Lions supporters who paid a fortune to travel down here and support this smashing team. 2nd the Springbok supporters (the genuine article - i.e. not the daft twits who just like to come on these blogs as well as the local ones here in SA just to stir) were fabulous too. My son & I were sat amongst them cos we bought local tickets and we stood out like red sore thumbs in a sea of green. By midway through the 1st half these guys realised that their beloved Boks were in trouble and in a very good-natured and friendly way they told us so and began applauding our Lions skills in partucular the "silky handling, ferocious tackling, and insightful running lines" of our lads. After Shane Williams 2nd try the whole stadium was on its feet. Flutey's skills I only was able to watch close up of later on TV at 2am after I got back from the celebrations and after 12 Guinesses the try looked like it had been scored by demi-Gods. I read the local blog and surprise surprise it was all the refs fault, DeVilliers fault, "we won the series so there", etc etc. I had to make a few chirps to remind them that after all their boasting about hidings that they claimed they had and would be giving us, that their beloved World Champin Boks had just suffered a genuine hiding. 19 points was the winning margin (an earlier comment by a Welsh lad I think illustrates his mathematics isnt what it should be...) and thats a hiding in anyones book whereas 5 and 3 points definitely are not. Plus overall the Lions scored 7 tries to the Boks 5 and 74 points vs 63. Many comments here that SA fielded 10 changes etc but the public supported that team and they all said (including the local papers and blogs) that they were going to murder us. Plus they were happy with the ref being southern hemisphere so post match moaning is making them look silly. The announcer at the stadium made me laugh too by saying at the start "welcome to Fortress Springbok blah blah" and after the end of the game saying well done to the Springboks for winning the series 2-1. But I can tell you that yesterday FELT like the Lions had been victorious on this tour whereas the look on John Smits face and his tone and words after the match illustrated how hugely dissappointed and even crushed the Boks were. This also reflected in some of their blogging fans words and tones as they searched for excuses and seemed unable to take defeat like men. So there you have it. All in all a terrific day, a brilliant and memorable win, and a foggy night out. Finally a reminder to everyone that as someone said this is the Lions. Not England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland. However (and this is just to tease you all) Geech definitely got his selctions right this match with 6 (six yes SIX) Englishmen in the lineup which we all saw did all the damage during the 1st half. Ha ha!! Best regards to you all in Blighty, kindly take the Ashes and a Brit must please win the Open. I look forward to seeing some of the English guys out here over Christmas against the SA Proteas (SA has politics in cricket too but it makes for interesting reading and as long as it distracts them thats great) Regards, Rob
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england2003-Bs again
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tomo1978- it was wyn jones behind vickery, we had this argument on bryn's last article and someone posted you tube link........I suggest you get your facts straight....adam jones came on against the 'B' front row, and I believe it was Shaw who tightened up the scrum in second test along with the height of reese at hooker making the bind easier and adding more weight....comprendez-vous?
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Flytaff i agree, i wouldnt put Monye above Williams either, though conversely on this tour i wouldnt put Williams above Monye...best two wings on tour: Bowe and Kearney, with Byrne at fullback. but since we were robbed of Byrne, Kearney went to fb and played awesome! so no complaints there, and we had to do something else, Monye, Fitzgerald and Williams all had chances to impress on tour, and at intervals they did, Shane just left it REAL late! :P
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i realise kearney is a fullback, as he keeps my fav player ever: geordan murphy out of the irish team! despite my poorly worded prior note!
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Monye did alright don't get me wrong, Shane has lost his form that is obvious and he was lucky to make the last test. But he did his job stayed with the man with the ball and scored..that's all that matters. This is not the first time his form has been a issue...he will bounce back. Monye the same he stayed with his man...scored. I still think Cueto or even Matt Banahan would of been better if we talk English players.
English players I was impressed with, Simon Shaw and Croft.
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Oh yeah, one more thing to add. The fight showed that all the bully boy antics of the Boks fail to frighten professional rugby players. When will the Boks manage to understand and accept this and (hopefully) give up their silly bully tactics. On the TV early hours this morning I was amazed to hear the local commentators began blaming Mike Philipps. But to be fair to them after the reply they backed down and said he had actually not done anything wrong at all just got picked on by Steyn (who needs anger management) then Broussouw (over-rated shrimp who tries to act the big tough guy and will get smashed by Richie McCaw and his NZ pack as well as by the Aussie pack especially back row if he behaves like that) then that idiot Spies. While all these SA players deserve our fullest respect for their amazing skills and talents, sadly their childish behaviour detracts from that. There is so much of it that I have reached the conclusion (as has the local press) that it has to be a tactic of the Bok management. Sad.
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Croftalicious I would have called geordan murphy on tour if we would of had more matches remaining. I would rather his experience than Delon Armitage's raw talent.
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you and i are gonna get along flytaff :) and thanks for wording my opinions of monye and williams' respective try scoring moments better than i did!
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Croftalicious NP.
To be honest my only disappointments regarding the tour apart from not winning the series are the players we lost to injury before the tour ever got going. I would of loved to have seen Tom Shanklin, Leigh Halfpenny, Thomas O'Leary, Ryan Jones & Jerry Flannery have a shot at the Boks. It was a shame we lost Ferris, E.Murray early too.
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I thought these Welsh players disappointed on the whole,
Andy Powell & Shane Williams-Both are better than what they showed.
Welsh players performances which surprised me-Matthew Rees with his line out throws.
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Despite not being able to watch the last match of the series, the highlights illustrated just how much class this, let's face it, scratch team has. From the Boks popping up in the first scrum to the try-saving tackle right at the death the boys fronted up in every position when it could have been very easy for them to have dropped their heads after last week's calamity.
Leave the bad blood after the second test, or how close it all was, both team captains and coaches said how special this series has been and they're not wrong. Full on, full pelt and full throttle, fantastic stuff!
I think it is amazing that a team made up of players from four nations can work so well together after so little preparation time. I think this is great testament to the players themselves and to the coaches (Geech especially). You can tell from the interviews that they all have so much respect for each other and do their best for each other, a valuable lesson to many of us I think.
It was wonderful to see and hear the solidarity that both teams demonstrated towards Bakkies Botha and I think this has done something to bury the acrimony that was flying around last week. On that note after verbally bashing him last week I have much increased respect for John Smit for his post match comments. His final comments from that interview should be ringing in the ears of every rugby fan everywhere "If anything should be kept the Lions should be kept." Thanks SA and thank you Lions!
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I wasn't disappointed with Andy Powell. His game plan has been limited and he has been shown up at test level. It's up to him how he goes forward next, but I did not rate him enough to be in the squad.
Shane has been incredibly muted since middle of 6N and on form was lucky to make the cut. I think the form of the Ospreys has affected most of the international players, with the exception of one - Tommy Bowe.
I don't rate most welsh hookers, as although they do good work in the loose, they have not shown an ability to throw. It is why i was more disappointed with Lee Mears in Test 1. The Lions missed Flannery in that quarter.
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England2003 - you are the type of England Rugby supporter that the rest of the British Isles detests, and you probably enjoy that. You are letting the other real England supporters down by your deliberate ploy to stir up trouble. This is not about whether England are better than everyone else. It is about the Lions. It's a good job no-one with your mentality was on the tour !
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England2oo3 - comment accepted re AWJ. My apologies. However, as to Martyb Williams not having the bulk - one of the best opensides to play in the last decade was Neil Back. Was he a monster? No. Could he smash rucks? No. Was he brilliant at what he did? Yes. He scavenged and linked up between forwards and backs. Being big is not necessarily a good trait for an openside.
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I always have mixed feelings at the end of a Lions tour. On the one hand isn't it great admiring the skills of players from other nations that you would normally be dismissing. Also, the great players of your past are only truly immortalised by playing for the Lions.
On the other hand those Lions playing for your club or country invariably come back either jaded or injured and you have to write-off the following year.
This is why I was about to predict a poor 6N's for the Irish and a worse year for Wales, as they also have to contend with Messrs Gatland, Edwards and Howley tying to rejuvenate the side. They may decide that the World Cup is all important and use next year as a training run.
However, the comments from England2003 remind me why it's so important for your nation to keep on winning - each year, every year. Thank you.
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LionstobeatSA- If you actually look past my username and take off the biased specs that YOU have on you'll find i'm not criticising or showing bias towards any particular nation......please read my posts (if you can of course) take off those tinted specs and tell me I don't have a point....fact is I don't believe certain players would have been in the squad (s.williams.a.powell) to name a few (would add j.worsley due to geech) if it wasn't for their 'special' peronal relationships with coach....ironically your having a pop (along with others) about my prejudice, when all you are seeing is 'england2003' and jumping to stupid assumptions.....yes i am a proud englishman and proud of the fact england won a world cup in 2003 and got to final in 2007, what's wrong with that?
tomo1978- No apology neccessary.....as for M. williams and Back there is/was a big difference in the build (somewhat like jason robinson and shane williams) back was pure muscle and very difficult to dislodge from rucks, he was incredibley powerful and was as broad as short...somewhat of a 'pocket rocket', his power also made him very good in one on one situations and he tackled well abbove his weight, somewhat like George smith who along with McCaw is best 7 in the world at the min, Neil Back worked incredibley hard on his physique and in the gym to make the most of what he had...... with M.williams I admit he has some very good attributes but for want of a better word his physique is somewhat 'doughey', I don't believe he has made the most of the opportunities he has had to become a bigger pressence and the work that he does so well on the ground can be 'un-done' by the fact he can be removed from the ruck with little effort.....I could make the same point for J.robinson vs s.williams as robinson again was a ball of solid muscle, fast over short and long distance and tackled well above his weight, shane williams is again hardly ripped to shreds as they say and become a liability when isolated
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Iolobear- another one who can't see past my username, your ignorance and prejudice is astounding...thank you sir
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England2003 - you're digging a bigger hole for yourself every time you write! Try and write something positive rather than be critical of top rugby players doing their very best on foreign soil against the World Champions. Martin Williams has been a credit to the game and one of the very best open sides of his type. Still a brilliant open side even at his age.
Referees and some poor selection decisions cost the Lions a famous series win, and this will ultimately go down as a missed opportunity because the Lions were the better side. They only had a few weeks to mould together and in the circumstances did brilliantly.
Just to add, if the selectors could pick their team for the 1st test again, I'm sure they'd have Shaw and Shane Williams in their side, would have had Flutey or Hook (if fit) on the bench, Rees or Ford at hooker, and there is a very good case for both Martin Williams and Worsley to start the match even though Croft did well.
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LionstobeatSA i also believe that Wallace played very well in both the tests he participated in, and, loathe though I am to admit agreeing with england2003, his extra bulk was necessary in the rucks as Croft, fast and strong though he is, was shown to be very lightweight attempting to clear and seel rucks when compared to the boks in test 1, although i thought he did better in test 2. to sum up: it would have been unfortunate for wallace to have been dropped totally from the test 22, though, of course, Williams played exceptionally well yesterday...
heres a question: which back row would people now prefer? having seen the tests?
1) Worsley, Williams, Heaslip
2) Worsley, Wallace, Heaslip
3) Croft, Williams, Heaslip
4) Croft, Wallace, Heaslip
i'd still just go for 4, ahead of 3...and yes im deliberately leaving powell out as i dont think he justified squad selection, let alone test 22. of course, its a shame that ferris and jones were sent home, as they would have given further interesting options in our back row.
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lionstobeatSA=ignorance is bliss...........we lost,ultimateley four nations out of the top 8 in the world couldn't beat 1, on the basis of the entire purpose of a tour it HAS to be down as failure, stop whining about referees and trying their best....if SA lose to New Zealand/AUS in the tri-nations they WILL BLAME THE PLAYERS NOT SALUTE THEM AS HERO's and the same will be said of the other tri-nations teams.......in fact even the lions players and captain had the courage to say they failed..........so why can't you??????????and I realy doubt your points about if the management team could pick a team again for the first test...I rather think if they could pick the squad again shane williams wouldn't be in it let alone the starting XV, and martyn williams isn't world class, neither is joe worsley or anyone else you mentioned, the ONLY world class lions players were O'driscoll, Roberts, Kearney, yes a few others played beyond their limitations but that doesn't make them world class, potentially heaslip, croft, monye,jenkins,sheridan,ferris,fitzgerald can make improvements and get to this cateogary but there is a real cazam between NH & SH rugby, also what's this rubbish about a 'scratch team' what's the real dif between a national team coming together from individual clubs? if anything the lions had longer together than a national team ever would!
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I thought I once bought a cazam from a bazaar in Jerusalem
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England 2003
"it's about winning, your mentallity and others like it is perhaps why when it comes down to it away from home there is something lacking.....fortunateley we had MJ and the crew in 2003 and also a much worse side in 2007 that were a disallowed try away from winning ANOTHER world cup!"
Your quote. You lost in 2007. Doesn't matter when in the tournament,or how. You didn't win, therefore you lost!
You are entitled to your opinion and we all welcome it, but please don't try to say you're not biased (currently) when you clearly are. Everyone else is talking about a Lions tour, not the WC or England. Geech his team picked the squad they thought would do best. They are entitled to their opinion when selecting and they are ultimately suffering under the same problems as us. We all know what we think we can see and I doubt that there is one of us who would have made at least one change to the squad (Cussiter instead of Ellis or Blair would have been mine)!!
I am proud of the team, think they were unlucky, and playing for the shirt and what it represents is what Lions Rugby is all about. I don't think they let us down and no amount of 20/20 hindsight and 'if we'd have selected so-and-so' will make the slightest bit of difference now. Certainly taking the England 2007 WC LOSING squad doesn't seem too bright an idea!
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England2003 - I've looked at your user profile that shows all the comments you've made in the past few days on all blogs. You really are quite sad.
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Feel like I did as a nine year old in 1970 when England in Mexico....who cares if we lost just really proud of the honest commitment, dignity and togetherness this wonderful and inspirational group of young men and those who led them have displated by the bucketful....it isn't always about the winning and in sad contrast all South Africa have done is prove that to be true.
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but they should never have brought Astle on!
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lionstobeatsa- maybe so but i'm not the one reading through people's profiles! have an opinion leave the personal insults from the safety of your pc.....anyone can do that and your realy going off the point of the article and debate
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I have got to say I think england2003 talks a lot of sense! I would like to say that I think the Welsh players are totally over rated but, have played well above their normal capabilities. For Example - Roberts is a one horse pony and only runs in to other players, lucky to offload at times, Phillips has exceptionally slow distribution, Shane Williams has been a liability all tour and Byrne is not half the player Kearney is. On the Plus side - Adam Jones suprised me with his scrummaging ability, Rees fronted up and deserved his test place and Jenkins was the best prop on tour.
Im sure I will get plenty of put downs about my comments but, I am entitled to my opinions!!!!!
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As an Englishman, It was strange sensation to feel such pride in a team with only a few English team members, but I felt massive pride in individaul performances by the 4 nations players.
I actually thought Mike Phillips could have taken MOM as his defence was fiersome and he slotted into centre without any fuss. Kearney was also there or there abouts.
The lions tem played with collective heart and passion but with excellent execution which is so often the fine line that has been mentioned throughout this thread. Rikki Flutey's sublime flcik to SW was a stand out moment, along with SWs mini loop around Kearny for dart dwon the left.
We have come away from the series knowing that South Africa had to play at their best (or as well as the lions would let them play ) to beat us and they also needed a bit of lady luck. However they also contributed to a fantastic tour and the mantle of "World Champions" sits very comfortably with a what is a great team.
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Wilesziea r you the brother of england2003?? How can you possibly say Kearney is better than Bryne.....did you actually watch him all season? yes Keaney performed fantastic in the 2 tests but he is not a proven quantity by any means. Lets see if he can keep it up all season, if he does yes I would put him up their with Byrne.
How is Shane Williams over rated? So they made him player of the year because they felt sorry for him?
Scott Gibbs was no different to Jamie Roberts so i guess as he is Welsh also he must be useless also.......seriously like your friend go back to your football!!
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flytaff-I agree with wilesize and england2003 so I guess it's everyone else that's wrong.....Kearney just hasn't had the publicity of byrne, shane williams won player of the year in a year with no world cup or lions tour, some have said it was a 'political' choice to keep the NH unions happy and media etc, don't agree with roberts comment though as he has been awesome......why are there so many welsh/irish on here all the time any way?
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Congrats to Wileszie and england2003 for being the biggest Muppets on here
squeakybumtime Kearney has had no publicity ...so Leinster did not win the Heineken cup then...must of been Leicester. tell u what next Lions we will play all English players again and see how you do...maybe we could bring back Sir Clive to help you out as he did such a good job with your star players last time round. I guess you are entitled to your views though just don't agree with them;}.
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Good game, good performance, good show!
I didn't expect much of it, and we must remember that we were up against a weakened SA side who had already won, but still it was very enjoyable.
Great to see Vickery earn some redemption, also great to see the Bull come on.
Shaw showed again what he brings to the party, a lot of physicality and the odd yellow card.
O'Connell finally got the victory he has so deserved.
Jaime Heaslip was liberated, looking like the best 8 in the world right now.
Stephen Jones had his best game in a Lions shirt.
Ricky Flutey dispelled my doubts.
Kearney was, once again, immense.
Shane Williams, once he got a little luck, was full of tricks again.
Monye showed that he can run really fast in a straight line.
Every player on tour has been a hero. Played well, or played badly, they have all played the way they were asked to, and can take pride in a job well done. Better preparation and tactics should see us to a win in Australia in 2013.
C'mon Lions!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
flytaff- don't normally comment on here but reading your and other ant-english comments I felt obliged, there were players on this tour who just shouldn't have been and the majority were welsh this is just a fact, it's not biased just fact, and yes we did lose the series over all but did play well....I think I'd rather have had them play shockingly, show no wonderful spirit......just win
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seeing a pattern here flytaff....
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101. Rothoik:
Cheers mate. At last someone who at least accepts the efforts from players NOT from their own country. I personally thought Heaslip and Worsley had top games. Team of the tests would be :
15 Kearney.
14 Bowe
13 O'Driscoll
12 Roberts
11 Williams
10 Jones
9 Phillips
8 Heaslip
7 Williams
6 Croft
5 Shaw
4 O'Conall
3 Jenkins
2 Reese
1 Jones
I think if we had had this team for all 3 tests then it would have been different - but we didn't and SA had the better squad.
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Yes I'm certainly seeing a pattern after reading your profile it tells me straight away that you do not want to make reasonable discussion....which means I don't have to waste my time on you TTFN
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Cheers mate. At last someone who at least accepts the efforts from players NOT from their own country. I personally thought Heaslip and Worsley had top games. Team of the tests would be :
your obviously welsh as how you can include shane williams is crazy and no sheridan? maybe you need to accept the efforts of players NOT from your own country
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just read yours and realised you must have far too much time on your hands, put your toys back in the pram and go to bed
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Sheridan over Jenkins? MMMmmmm I feel we have someone here who has not played or even touched a rugby ball for quite a while.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
no for jones seeing as sheridan plays 1 duuuuuuh......when was the last time you played! see you didn't take offence to mr s.williams though.....well done
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Sorry for my mistake, thought Jenkins and Sheridan played the same position - I will back down to your obviously superior rugby knowledge - and might I say, lovely turn of phrase. Re. Williams jibe, am getting a bit tired with arguing for him -.even thought he showed his worth yesterday,
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MorrisDavies
I believe Matthew Rees surprised a few of us with his line out throws, hope he can maintain that form next season.
Who do you think will replace Adam Jones, possibly Eifion Roberts..let us know your thoughts.
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Wow things have heated up in here...
Should we bring in some UN negotiators or Bryn is it time for you to earn your keep, and try to get these guys to find some common ground?
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108. handofjohnson wrote:
flytaff- don't normally comment on here but reading your and other ant-english comments I felt obliged, there were players on this tour who just shouldn't have been and the majority were welsh this is just a fact, it's not biased just fact, and yes we did lose the series over all but did play well....I think I'd rather have had them play shockingly, show no wonderful spirit......just win
Pot calling Kettle black with the anti-stuff...you should read your posts again Mate. It's always the same these Lions tours if a Nation does not have enough players in the squad then the fans call it mutiny;]or ant-that-nation, I'm sure the coaches are more experienced on who to pick than both of us.
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Flytaff, as seen on my previous post the front row isn't my forte so I'm not sure I can comment. I just think that the old idea of a front row has gone (apart from some of our friends over the border) and as long as we produce a mobile guy who "does a job" at scrum time is ok by me. Agree with the throwing in - not bad at all. His tackle on the wing in the first half summed up the Lions spirit I thought.
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WillyGilly1990 I just want a descent discussion, I don't mind a bit of bias as long as it's respectable...I'm not one for sitting back and taking it though and will reply in kind.
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Hey I'm not objecting (particularly given the stick I got earlier on in the day) but I find it the slightly amusing that now the Lions tour is over (which was apparently supposed to unite us) we 4 nations are all at each others throats again. The 6 nations is such a long way away as well...
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121. MorrisDavies
It will be good to see Duncan Jones back in the frame for Wales again, he will give Geth a real battle.
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WillyGilly1990
Agreed it's like attack of the Wum's. Where's the Scottish!!!
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116. At 11:20pm on 05 Jul 2009, squeakybumtime wrote: when was the last time you played!
Well I'm 40 now and stopped playing (semi profesional) when I was 30 so I guess you could say I am a bit "off the pace" with regards to the rules but, hey, at least I have played the game a bit - what about you squeakybumtime? Any England caps?
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WillyGilly1990
I agree, my fingers are shaking as i scroll down the pages. I can see a fight taking place at the toll booths on the Severn bridge, the port in Fishgard and a pub in Swansea(England2003's local)
Lets all agree that the result wasn't what we wanted but the spirit of the Lions is as strong as ever and all members of the squad played their hearts out whilst wearing the Lions shirt.
How long is it til the six nations?
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Unfortunately its over 7 months away. I can't see some of the above contributors, waiting that long...
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WillyGilly1990 yes you got some hassle today did'nt you, liked the Clive Woodward in disguise one;]
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I would also like to point out that alot of this "banter" has been due to the styles of rugby certain nations are used to - Ireland and mix of really solid forward play with a bit of flair from the backs, England mostly grunting it up front (effectivly I might add - you won the World Cup using that style) and Wales winging it with great backs and not so grunty forwards). Munster play differently to Cardiff Blues to Wasps - it is what you are used to and the real rugby fan can appreciate them all I feel.
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Perhaps we should write to Messers Johnson, Gatland, Robinson and Kidney and see if they can get a little round robin tournament together just to settle these spats.
My money is on ...... don't even go there
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MorrisDavies Keeping to one style for the Lions has only worked on the odd occasion, most of the time like the last Lions series it was a disaster. The whole point of the Lions is to unify the different styles to make the team more effective. If they were given more time without injuries coming into the equation then they would be fantastic.
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You would almost guarantee, (after us riling each other up for the next 7 months) that out of no where the Italians would come along and claim the Grand Slam.
Isn't that likely though is it?
Hey rather them than the French though eh? (sensing some common ground here? if a lions tour doesn't unite us then surely hatred of the French should?)
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ellfromgavenny from Abergavenny I gather? You border people, stir it up and go and buy the beers when it kicks off;]
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Flytaff: I was simply pointing out "Ogara is better at kicking than Jones" "Williams needs space" "Wyn Jones, Jenkins etc great in the loose but can't scrummage" "Sheridan is this great monster" sort of comments - each team has it's players for a purpose and each supporter backs that style I think. I am Welsh and will always want Wales to play the way they HAVE to - running and not contact - I have English friends who love the physical rolling maul etc I appriate that. In my playing career we had many different coaches with different styles and I always preferred the running stlye - it's my opinion of how the game should be played.
I think the lions played more running than banging and indeed won the game where they ran it most - maybe I am wrong.
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MorrisDavies I know just forgot to tell you that I agree with you!!
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MorrisDavies Except about Gethin, he is good at a defensive scrummage, he will not push you off the park like a on form Sheridan though.
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WillyGilly1990 - Sorry mate. As soon as "Swing low" starts I reach for the garlic and the I'm French for the afternoon. I'm real Welsh see.
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MorrisDavies do you know Swing Low actually originated in Oklahoma it was a slave song?
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Flytaff - ok point taken. But I would rather 10 tackles and no lost scrums than no tackles and no lost scrums - preference again.
Never thought I'd see a all Welsh front row for the Lions mind - and one that dominated.
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MorrisDavies Where r u from?? Pembroke myself.
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Flytaff
Correct in your assumption of my locality. I even grew up, hanging out and playing footie and rugby with Bryn the blogger, so if you want some gossip on the Pandy hearthrob i'm your guy!!
I'm as Welsh as you are butt, rubbish that i'm a border/Wenglish?person, I'm Welsh, end of.
Hey i'm on your side here but it just goes on and on and on, we all side with our own nations players and nobody is gonna give in.
I'd still put my money on Wales winning the Grandslam next year!!!!!!!!
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I did and I don't care - it is assiciated with the "Nigels" and "Harveys" in their cordoroys who have never played the game before. I am usuallly quite level headed about these things but "swing low" is my weak spot.
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ellfromgavenny I know I was only joking my friend just a bit of friendly banter;]
I also know it's better probably not to respond to these wums but I just can't help myself, i never backed down playing rugby if someone hit me I just smiled and that got to them even more than hitting them back. Unfortunately this site is full of wums (all nationalities)you could swear they only come on to cause trouble...and they probably do. and the more you retaliate the more it looks like you are one yourself;]
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MorrisDavies Maybe they should come and ask us to write one for them.
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I don't want to jinx it, but am I the only one who's noticed the level of conversation has got more friendly ever since the english have left the blog?
Coincidence?
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WillyGilly1990 I quite enjoyed the English wum's, compared to the Saffer wum's they understand us.
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Blimey! I keep expecting to see Jimmy Carter coming in to try to officiate a peace deal between WillyGilly1990 et al and the England2003 bloke/lass (surely s/he's too young to remember that World Cup anyway! S/He sounds about six!)
Interesting comments earlier about the Southern Hemisphere having an equivalent of the Lions to play the NH's finest on the odd occasion. From time to time the idea has found enough support to get it going. I saw the Southern Saltires thrash the Northern Stars in Hongkong in 1990. It wasn't much of a game, to be honest. The problem is the timing of the series. The only time the NH is likely to do well in a series of this sort is if it's held in the middle of our season (same applies to the RWC, of course - worst luck). There's no way the 6N will be allowed to take back seat to such a radically new idea, so I think we can forget about it ever happening on a regular basis. Don't know if anyone here remembers the South American team led by Hugo Porta that toured South Africa during the apartheidt era (they actually won a Test), but it underlined the importance of the touring mentality. That's why the Lions should never play at home. I know we played in France in 1989 that one time, but the decision to play the Pumas at Cardiff in 2005 badly backfired. It seemed the rest of the Lions were the guests of the WRU - Owen was even the captain, I seem to remember. The Lions ain't broke and don't need fixing. We were unlucky this time. The Third Test (in which BOTH sides were changed, not just the Saffers) proved the Lions can win after the SCW debacle. Next time things may be different.
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Sorry to display my blogging ignorance, but just what is a WUM?
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UnicosCampeones-WUM is "Woman or Wind-Up Merchant"
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rgh1066- Does anyone know the average amount of matches a international player plays in every season in the Northern Hemisphere to their Southern counterparts??
I know for example in the Magner's league there are 18 matches then we have the Anglo-Welsh cup (EDF), Autumn internationals (3), Heineken Cup, Six Nations and Summer tours.
I know the Super 14 has 13 matches but I'm not sure what domestic matches like the Npc etc has.
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Really confused with Posts No. 56 & 75 from England2003 who claims that clips from You Tube prove that AWJ was packing down behind Vickery in the first half of the 1st Test.
Just looked at You Tube - 'Lions v SA first half scrums' and it is definitely Paul O'Connell packing down behind Vickery and NOT AWJ as you said.
England2003 - take another look and admit you are wrong.
Why are there so many national bias posts on here. I personally really enjoyed watching players of all the Home Nations coming together and really having a good crack at the Boks. Some great performances across the tour from lots of players, must have created quite a few selection headaches for the coaches picking the Test Teams.
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It seems to me that people are again forgetting Stephen Jones' fantastic performances... Kearney, Shaw and Bowe all had brilliant tours- Kearney really showed his 6 nations form was not a flash in the pan- but Jones consistently made the right decisions, directed the team very well, and showed moments of great flair (Kearney's try being the most obvious). He's no Dan Carter or Matt Giteau but O'Gara is a class player and never even got a look-in for the 10 shirt.
For me, Kearney/ Bowe remain men-of-the-tour but Jones was the better of the half-backs in my view.
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it definately was POC redspionkop, will an apology be forthcoming? doubtfull...
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Croftalicious, how are you today Mate?
As for England2003 he is a big time Wum, just read the stuff he says on his profile, he's not here for reasonable discussion, he only comes on to stir up trouble.
By the way cornishlad2 thought Stephen Jones proved his worth and silenced a lot of the O'Gara fans.
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IT WAS AWJ TAKE A LOOK
Also I turn my back for 2 seconds and this blog turned into a welsh speed dating service
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england2003 Lovely he's back, you made my day Mate.
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Thanks Croftalicious - I thought I was going senile.
By the way agree completely with cornishlad2 about Stephen Jones' performances. O'Gara is a good player, but I think Jones' running game and ability to release his backline have suited the Lion's attacking style.
Jones plays flat on the gain line (as opposed to O'Gara who sits deeper in the pocket), which puts the element of doubt into rushing defences and ultimately allowed Roberts and O'Driscoll to find gaps by runing from deep.
I was also very impressed with Kearney's performances. He proved he is on a par with Lee Byrne, who I initially thought would have been a big loss.
Simon Shaw was also immense when he came in and also a mention for Matthew Rees for proving his critics wrong.
Overall I thought the Tests were great entertainment and the first two could have gone either way.
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England2003 - have another look with your glasses on this time.
POC is N0. 5 - on the right hand side of the scrum, packing down behind N0. 3 - Phil Vickery.
AWJ is N0. 4 (with the Red Scrum Cap)- on the left hand side of the scrum packing down behind No. 1 - Gethin Jenkins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT0FNRtzQeM
Here is the link to 'Lions v SA first half scrums'
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superb series by both sides! well done to the lions for showing alot of pride n playing superb rugby in all the tests they shud have won the series thou!
SA had injuries as well so its not an excuse but Ferris is amazin and i believe he will b the outstanding 6 in world rugby over the next few years he wud have really helped.
Finally how about Heaslip as man of tour did anyone hear Pierre Spies name in the series the outstanding Super 14 player, the man we cud not stop, was shut down completely wat a series i thought in the final test he was out of this world!
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A decent ref. and a good set of English players and the Lions can win, Geech knows his one and main mistake was O'Connell as captain, had Shaw and AWJ started the first test the series would have been won.
That said, a great tour and series, that hopefully won't be overshadowed by some of the Boks play and them the disgraceful "protest" on Saturday.
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flytaff do you just spend your time reading peoples profiles.....it's a bit creepy......I concur it was Alun Wyn jones not o'connell
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squeakybumtime Reading your profiles Tell's me whether to bother with or not...whether you are here for a proper discussion or are wum. It saves the bother of having to argue with u.
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Thought Heaslip did a lot of grafting in the first two tests but was not too prominent in open play with ball in hand.
However, I thought he was absolutely outstanding on Saturday and proved how effective he can be when he has a solid front five in front of him, a dynamic openside and a hard grafting blindside alongside him.
I dthink that he is going to develop into one of the best No. 8's in world rugby.
Also would loved to have seen Ferris in action in the tests had he not been injured.
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redspionkop- looks like AWJ behind vickery mate
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AJGS37 come on enough already about filling the team with English players, we tried that on the last Lions tour....it did not work. Shaw and Croft were the only ones that deserved their first team places, Monye possibly. The Irish and Welsh players that filled the remaining places deserved their places.
Worsley was third choice after Croft and Ferris
Vickery had his chance, Adam Jones came in and did the job.
Sheridan was poor till the last test, Gethin Jenkins did more around the park.
Ellis is a great play but he was poor like Shane Williams on this tour.
Flutey did ok, but he is no BOD or Jamie Roberts.
Delon Armitage is a good player but he is not up their yet with Kearney and bryne.
Please don't come back and tell me Wilkinson or Danny Cipriani should have toured as I might go into convulsions;]
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Afternoon all. My comment #73 was to share the local sentiment here in SA that whilst the Boks won the series they dont appear to be feeling like winners (more like whiners) whereas the Lions seem to be enjoying the feeling of being "winners" which I think is great. I then made a comment #79 before I left this blog to go watch the amazing Wimbledon final and I hoped that might divert everyone from the daft arguments about home nationalities and bring back the focus to the article. But I having just got back on line I see that I failed. Pity cos I think you would have been better off having a few more Guinesses last night (as I did) while the "celebratory" feeing rolled on, rather that being on here inter-fighting all night. Having said that the comments make great reading with some interesting points of view. I most agree with WillyGilly1990 comment #133. I hate the French more than anyone else.
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england2003 and squeakybumtime I'm afraid I have to agree with my welsh counter-parts, you can clearly see poc crouching down behind Vickery in the scrum. AWJ is standing to the left of him.
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redsipkop- As a former second row I take great interest in this area and it was AWJ behind vicks...
Also to flytaff....Sheridan was poor to the last test....just shows you have little knowledge of the game. Also vickery was hung out to dry in the first test by por selection of mears and AWJ, nobody seriously thought duncan jones was any good before the tour and he just came on at exactly the right point on the first test, also nick kennedy should have been on the squad instead of donkey o'callaghan, not to start as he lacks physical pressence but to offer something different....I also think rob andrew was in with a shout ahead of o'gara!
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Thanks WillyGilly1990
By the way I am not welsh.
But don't like too see a totally innocent man in AWJ taking the blame for other peoples errors or inability.
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HandsofJohnno I thought I was in with a shout ahead of O'Gara. I had my kit on and everything but the call just never came mate!
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handofjohnson Sheridan is a great player but you have to admit he was poor in previous matches, in the scrum he is always good but around the field and in the breakdown he gave away more penalties than Dan Carter has converted in his life. Please read 168 WillyGilly1990 for info on Vickery;]. AwJ ot Mears should not be blamed, blame the ref cause he let the Beast bore!!
PS-I have more knowledge of the game than you will ever have, why because I'm not bias. Nick Kennedy come on, I could put numerous players ahead of him, even Scottish players!!
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handofjohnson 169.You mean Adam jones correct? As a Ospreys fan i can tell you Adam jones in the last year has become a real quality player and it was no surprise to me at all.
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Jamie Roberts has been named the 'Player of the Series' following South Africa's 2-1 Test series win over the British and Irish Lions.
Selected by the British & Irish Lions media. Glad they weren't picking the team !!!
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FLYTAFF
My comments were tongue in cheek, nice to see you bite down hard on it though.
Flutey was fantastic, not "did ok"
As stated if Shaw ahd started the first test, we'd have won.
Facts speak for themselves though, when they test team was loaded with English players, we won, it's because the English are used to playing at the tale end of World cups and in World cup finals, something the other home nations have no idea about, so we are used to competing at that intensity.
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AJGS37 The Lions were full of English in the last Lions in NZ also, they were better than the players you have now....and guess what=Fact as you say-they lost...tongue in cheek I don't think that's what it is, more sour grapes is more like it;]
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AJGS37- at last a man speaking sense........there were 6 english players starting the 3rd test as well as 2 off the bench and we won! is this coincidence? hell no......we played better than SA in the first 2 tests and did we win.....course not as the mentallity wasn't there to close a game out....the mantallity that gets you 2 world cup finals...we had the mantallity that makes you lose to FIJI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Funny the English have 6 players in the team in the last test and suddenly the reason why we won was because of those 6 players..what a wum comment. Umm thought it was a 15 player game? Suppose the other players because they are Irish or Welsh did not contribute? The fact it was a second string SA team is more like it.
And you have to admit it was total luck that you won that World Cup, for one playing the French (who always fall apart against you, what I would call the Napoleon syndrome), in the rain as well..well it was a matter of just sticking the ball up your jumper. Australia in the final..well they just bottled it. Similar to the Welsh Sevens winning the 7's World cup in Dubai, it was luck but they won it.
Yeah well at least we can beat Argentina.
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Oh dear, sorry flytaff, but that cracked me up.
When we beat teams we are lucky, when teams beat us it is down to good play? Ok mate!
W ere the best team in the world in 2003 and beat every single team before the tournament including the AB's with 13 men, something everyone seems to over look.
2007 we beat every single team in front of us bar the Boks but were the better team in the final, you probaly won't know though as unfortunately none of the other home nations get to the later stages of the World cup and it's England who are still there at the business end.
You want to talk about luck, Wales last 2 Grandslams when England were much there better side in both tournaments, but it would just sound bitter to talk about things like that eh?
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AJGS37 Your Pint sized at best Mate, keep to your football. Oh your not very good at that too!! So what's the excuse for losing to Argentina and the Barbarians makeshift team and then seeing Australia hammer them??
And how were England unlucky not to win those 2 Grand Slams we took off them...come on lets here it Wumboy?
Let me see I expect kak comments like this- it was a development team, a second string team...blah..blah..blah.
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Xpat 73 has hit the nail on the head.
Think the midweek game before the 2nd test was a bit silly considering you are allowing possible test starters to pick up an injury.
Also it would have been good to have some boks players play for their provinces because it devalued some of the games and the supporters didnt turn up which was dissapointing.
The last point about time is the most important tho.
With time, we would undoubtedly win more tests and these close test series will be a thing of the past.
Geech has done a fantastic job and im just gutted that it is all over. What a great 6 weeks its been. Congrats to the Boks but well done the Lions. I think that the Lions brand is going to be around for many years to come.
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But it was the 2 English guys in the front row that lost us the 1st test.
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woah!! what a lot of in-fighting going on in here!! the series isnt 2days cold and we're all already at eachothers' throats! I love the home-nation friendliness, dont you?
im fine thanks flytaff buddy.
again: it was POC, number 5, behind Vicks, wearing 3, binding on the right hand side of second row, AWJ, wearing 4 (and a bright RED cap) was on the left, behind Jenkins, number 1. anywho, that game was over 2 weeks ago, and we lost due to much more than the scrum getting decimated for a half, in the second test our scrum was the dogs proverbials for a half till jenks and jones got creamed...we didnt win that one either! SA were just better than us at doing the basics.
we won the last test because the players involved, as a whole, not just the english boys and kearney, played with more fire and commitment than the Saffers guys on the day. the best example being S. Williams; who at last looked like he was trying to play for the Lions, getting MoM and 2 tries to boot. this is the Lions guys, if you want to gripe and wind people up go to your respective nations' 606 board or something and do it there.
British and Irish Lions forever!
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The trouble is with these wums is that they can't move on, they live in the past. England won the Rugby World Cup in 2003, 6 years ago and yep you guessed it you never hear the end of it from them.
Most respectable English supporters are delighted they won it but have moved on to the present as that's the reality of things.
The English team with no offense intended to you good English supporters is average at best but has the potential to develop into a very good team. To say that 6 English players in the team made THE difference is nonsense.
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Croftalicious good to see u mate.
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Careful what you say Flytaff, I think it could be said us Welsh are pretty good at harking back to wonderful 1970s.
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MorrisDavies Yes your right that's one hell of a bad habit SOME of us have, I feel for today's Welsh Team in that respect....to even try to compare them to that team is unreasonable in the first place as the game has moved on so much.
I believe we have a good team at the moment but we have a hell of a lot to do before we reach South Africa, New Zealand and Australia consistently!!
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MorrisDavies
PS was not saying that SOME was u;]
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re: hanofjohnson "As a former second row I take great interest in this area and it was AWJ behind vicks..."
Go to post 159, click on the link and watch those scrums again.
If you claim to take that much of an interest then you will see that you are wrong on this occasion, as POC is clearly behind Vickery on every scrum.
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MorrisDavies Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong about talking about the Great Welsh team of the 70's but trying to compare the teams and specifically the players with today's modern professionals does not work for me.
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sorry to break up this welsh love in.......of course it wasn't just the 6 english players but it wass the diference, facts are there were 2 english players in 2nd test and we lost, 6 in the 3rd and we won....end of....fltaff- that covers 2003 that of course we keep 'harping back' to (I dread to think what the welsh would be like if you even made a final) but what about 2007.....only 20 months ago, when you of coursed were beaten by the giants of rugby that is FIJI with many of the same players that play now, no doubt the welsh boys have ability but they don't have the mental asspects to win big games AWAY from millennium stadium......to say the england 2003 team were lucky is an ignorant comment though come on, we were the best team on the planet for 2 years previously.
Oh and as squeakybumtime, handofjohnson and someone else said it WAS AWJ behind Vickery ;)
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It was you that harked back to 2003 FLytaff by saying it was lucky, yes and we were lucky in 2007 no doubt, so you can hardly blame me!
This Argentina we lost to in Argentina, you had much luck out there? as we did ok at OT against them the week before despite a load of first teamers in SA, where did they finish in the World cup in 2007 this weak Argenina side, 3rd wasn't it? can you tell me where Wales were?
As for the WUM comment, well thats just plan chidlish really eh.
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So how can some of these Wum supporters like england2003 justify putting more English players in the Lions team on past merits? Nearly all these players were not in the 2003 World Cup, does the experience of these players telepathically transfer to the new players!!
Typical wum English/chip on the shoulder thinking!!
By the way did we not beat you at HQ 2 years ago..so much for the mentality of not winning away from home!! Oh and you were lucky it's part of the game I'm afraid;]
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Wasn't it Wales that clawed back from 19-6 with 35 minutes to go at Fortress Twickers against our oh so mighty neighbours? 20 unaswered points wasn't it? Doesn't really imply a nervy steely resolve to shut out a game does it? Only one example I know but a case to prove that what you say has a slight Rose tinted colour to it don't you think?
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england2003
Question for u
Why were the Lions so bad in 2005 if they contained the nucleus of English World Cup winning players from 2003 in their squad and team?
Must of been the 1 Welsh player in the team I guess;]
This puts your debate to rest I'm afraid.
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FlyTaff - could it be that the All Blacks had a Welsh coach and had therefore improved? (joking)
Seriously you guys must stop arguing and start rellishing in the Lions performance on this tour.
South Africa is not an easy place to come. They are hard and vicious and are they are World Champs. Our Lions were written off but we did really well. Enjoy it and stop sqaubbling. I know we are an hour ahead of you guys but I am already on my 3rd Guiness....
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The 2005 lions failed as they were based on a team that peaked in 2003.
For what it's worth I can tell you the J and G in my intials in my name are 2 names of 21 Welsh and Lions Legends given to me by my Dad, I was born in England and am English but still have great ties to Wales.
It was very boring readying about how it should be called the Celtic Lions before the tests, then Vickery wrongly blamed and singled out in the first test, how in the third test there were 2 many English players and we'd get stuffed, then when we won it was against SA's second string.
To many celts with to many chips.
A lot of players really stepped up in SA, what needs to be done now is for the home nations to take it on to the international stage for there countries and not just England who take on the SH teams.
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AJGS37 - Agree with your last comment with regards that, in 2003, England were on form, timing it right for the world cup and winning down there. France really are the only other team I can think of that have done this recently.
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AJGS37 - "what needs to be done now is for the home nations to take it on to the international stage for their countries and not just England who take on the SH teams" - I'm confused, just remind me how England did in the Autumn 2008 internationals against the SH teams and what the result was when Wales played Australia in Autumn 2008 - you're living in the past mate, Wales and Ireland are looking good for the future while English warriors like Shaw, Vickery & Worsley are on their last legs.
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England2003
Actually we have been in 3 world cup finals and lost 2 - so I don't think your argument holds up.
So as an Englishman:
Kerney over Byrne any day.
Would have loved to have seen Flutey and O'Driscoll - maybe not in the tests, but it would have been a handful. Roberts was awesome. Would also have loved to see Shanklin out there - seriously underated player even in Wales.
Swing low makes me cringe! Actually Twickenham has a lot in common with this blog - most people know sfa about rugby.
Great, great Lions tour!.
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Oh and Flytaff
Lions 2005 - bad due to Woodward. We won the world cup despite him not because of him.
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Abernedd
Ireland and Wales have never done it on the world stage in the professional era, England have.
My poit being that is after such good dhows from some Welsh and Irish Lions (though the Irish pack is weak) they need to constantly be competing with them.
England were poor in 2008, England are re building and hopefully in a year or 2 will be back to the best, Wales and Irland I would say are playnig with there peak teams, so should be able to do it now, if not why not?
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really enjoyed the tour, well done to SA, the captain is a class act even if the coach is a bit of a moron. Sadly, given that the great novelty of being able to cheer on players who you usually hate the sight of is over, been thinking about how the `nationalities` fared. It seems to me that the English still have something about them, they can get stuck in and grind people down, basically have players with character (witness vickery coming back to tackle the beast, and the impact of Shaw). Ireland have the edge on future talent - heaslip, bowe, fitzgerald, earls, Ferris, kearney - all under 25. But it seems that, on the basis of the lions performances, Wales might have the most complete team at the moment, especially if Shane Williams can maintain his self belief from the last test. Can`t wait for the AI`s, especially SA in croke park.
also, as a side note, did anyone else notice how much higher POC jumped when Hayes was lifting him? In only a few lineouts there was a marked difference.
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Wow okay time for me to get involved again. AJGS37 how can you possibly say that the Irish pack is weak? From my reckoning out of the 8 players in a Lions pack at least 4 would be Irish (Flannery, POC, Heaslip and either Wallace or Ferris) explain yourself please?
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flytaff- the reason the 2005 lions didn't work is that the players (as already mentioned) had peaked in 2003 if not earlier.....going down to the SH and beating AB's twice (with 13 men at one point) and the Aussies (when did wales last do this by the way.........answer haven't beaten an all black team at any level in 50 years until the 7's a couple of months back) in 2002 you could argue they were at their best, dallaglio/back/hill/greenwood/ and a few others shouldn't have gone in 05 but this was woodward being a)clouded by the personal relationships with players (understandably seeing as they'd won a world cup) and b)the obsession with science.........neither of these had any reflection on the ability of that team.........as for 2007 it was just shere bloody minded-ness and a will to win that saw that team make the final- the characteristics that a man like phil vickery showed in abundance by coming back the way he di in the 3rd test after many 'knowledgable' rugby pundits (such as your good self) had blamed one man for a poor scrummaging performance (which again goes back to AWJ & Mears).....the loyalty/stupidity that woodward showed in 05 has left it's mark from gatland and the crew for this years tour unfrtunateley with shane williams being a definate benefactor of 'nepatism'.......
Oh and the great 'victory' wales had at HQ 2 years ago???wind the tape back to that first half when we absoloutley battered you and should of been 40+ points up at half time, a lucky charge down in the second half and suddenly wales became a 'world class team'
OH and someone tell fltaff to stop using WUM!
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england2003 I use Wum in your case as you are one, if I use the word I want to use my post would be moderated...clever u see.
Players had peaked in 2003, so why pick them in 2005 if they were out of form.....oh yes that fantastic coach Sir Clive. Please shorten your posts you could just put whinge..whinge...whinge and BS..BS..BS that should do the job and save u time;]
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taking the step following willygilly1990: time to step in again:
england2003 calm down man...some points you have are right, but at the moment all you're doing is antagonising people with views just as valid, indeed some more so, than your own, and making english rugby fans (myself among them) look silly. I was there at HQ 2 years ago when the welsh beat us, singing my heart out with the rest of the crowd trying to lift our boys up. fact of the matter is we were soundly thrashed for 35 minutes...ok we were on top for 45, but last time i looked a game of rugby lasts for 80 minutes...test 2 was a sickening reminder of that fact. yes you are right, Vickery was unfairly singled out after the first test, as the whole scrum was collapsing, he was just the focal point, and in the 3rd test he was immense in the scrum, but that doesnt alter the fact that as soon as A. Jones and Rees came on in test 1 the scrum sured up quick sharpish. The Beast knew what to do regarding Vickery, and there was nothing that he could do about it.
Flytaff my man, its clear you know a fair bit about our game, and of course a little die hard patriotism is good for you, but I think that the ol' rose tinted specs aren't solely on english eyes here...
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Sorry, but I am fed up with how many English or Welsh players should be in the team. I am a proud supporter of the British and Irish Lions, and for whatever reasons the last 2 tours did not work, this tour has showed that we can still gel both on and off the field and compete against the SH teams.
SA must be congratulated for winning the series, but we must take the positives from this tour and the fact the Lions managed to carry on playing totally committed rugby and several players when called upon managed to make the step up to test level.
Now the tour is over I will go back to supporting my club and country but for me a Lions tour is the pinnacle.
Ps my players of the tour was Rob Kearny and Simon Shaw
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As a new member of this blog i am amazed by the WUM on the site well done the lions for winning the last test match it was well desevered.Reading about the selection i am pleased that vickery proved the critics wrong however if Gethin and adam had not been injured he would not have had his chance at redemption.As for there being six english men playing is why we won is frankly english bias.If Roberts and BOd were fit flutey would not have played and just because he plays for england does still not take away that he is a kiwi and know he has made a name for himself he goes to france to play his rugby.If we had not had the injuries in the second test we would have won it or at least drawn the game,so please can we all agree that not everybody will agree with the selections but we should all get behind the team that is chosen
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Croftalicious Like I said before I won't tolerate bs about our Welsh players, if these boys want a respectable discussion then let them start talking as present they think there is some sort of conspiracy going on regarding their players.Geech, Gats and S.Edwards picked the best players there was no bias.
It's hard sometimes to be completely 100% reasonable in this discussion as sometimes you have to lower yourself to match their lack of respect;]
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England 2003 your comment about wales winning at HQ two years ago should have been 40 points plus at half time mabey it should have been but it wasnt and you were beaten by a club side then proved there quality by winning the grand slam winning atHQ and Murryfield.I have a lot of English friends and we always have good well thought out banter but i have to agree that your comments are meant to get peoples back up and are not representive of the majority of english supporters.
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(The following is a vain attempt to unify the contributors to this blog. It didn't work last night so there's no real reason why it should work now, but still worth a shot...)
Hey what about those smelly french pricks eh?
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Croftalicious - an oasis of common sense in an ever maddening melee of cheap shots. I supported the Lions through it all and wanted everyone to do well, irrespective of race,creed,religion,colour, nationality and preferred pint of beer. That's the point of the Lions, isn't it? A great opportunity to cheer on the team, not dress up a mythcal could've/would've in a shirt of your own nationality.
Bye y'all
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WillyGilly1990 I am 100% with you about both points you make a) everyone should stop bitching about home nationalities debate and b) the French are the common enemy.
PS I just read that the Boks are being charged by the IRB for their petulant demonstration against the IRB decison/rules concerning that thug Botha.
PPS I am onto Guinness # 8 and the celebratory feeling rolls on...
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I think that AJGS37 is being a little disingenuous in his critism of POC ... firstly he is the best second row in the northern hemisphere, secondly, he gets through a massive abount of work in all aspects of the game, thirdly, somebody has to do the standard carries close into the ruck and I bet if you looked at the stats he was turned over less than another lions player thsi tour. Finally, I shall leave it to the words of Martyn Williams (from bbc website column) who certainly is ina much better position than AJGS37 to comment .... It would have been easy to let our intensity levels slip for the final Test after losing the first two games but we maintained our performance levels and the credit for that has to go to the coaches and our captain Paul O'Connell.
Paul has been absolutely immense on this tour and is the best captain I have ever worked with. The way he has handled himself in the last week of the tour speaks volumes about the man.
He spoke to the group on Friday night, telling us what the final Test meant to him and what an honour it had been for him to play for the Lions.
Paul told us our performance in the game would leave a legacy for the next four years. It was real hairs-on-the-back-of-the-neck stuff.
I don't think Paul gets the credit he deserves. When you play with or against him you realise just how good a player he is.
He does all the unglamorous work at close quarters and has an unbelievable engine. People in the stands don't necessarily see that.
As a captain, he is absolutely inspirational - we all have so much respect for him.
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Croftalicious I would have liked to make lots of complimentery comments regarding English players, I was in Leicester University for a while so I follow English rugby as well as Welsh and their are some great aspects regarding English Rugby but right now with this negativity it might make some peoples' heads swell even more so.
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WillyGilly1990 Do you know the French actually invaded Wales once. They landed near Fishguard and were scared off by our woman in Welsh dress lining the cliff tops. I guess with all that wine they were downing they must of thought they were soldiers.
Says it all really scard off by a bunch of woman;]
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Flytaff the French are all largely idiots but what possible motive could they have for invading Wales? Your comment also backfires quite badly on you, as it doesn't say much about the standard of the females in Wales...
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I assume you all know why the British officers used to wear red?
Thats right - in case they were wounded it was to prevent the troops from seeing any blood which might have demoralised the troops.
And do you all know that for the very same logical reason the French officers wear brown trousers!
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WillyGilly1990 Hey I'm not saying Welsh Woman are the best looking in the World mate...however after a few beers they make your life easier. Anyway I'm married to a American.
And why not invade Wales, they think we hate u as much as they do??;]
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Land in Wales then attack England over land rather than crossing the channel.
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As far as I'm aware the French have no issue with the Irish what so ever. Indeed, out of all the nationality's in the world, (with the exception of the english naturally) you'd have to try hard, to find anyone who'd say a word against our wee country. We are adorable!
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Flytaff
Glad to see you sticking up for what you believe in i am welsh living in England and have taken some abuse in the last few years the last three has been really good as we have beaten the english three times on the trot
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NEWSFLASH
The military alert level in France has recently been increased from "run" to "hide".
The French only have 4 military alert levels and the only higher alert levels they have are "collaborate" and "surrender".
The cause of the recent increase in the French military alert level was due to a fire in France's white flag factory that has decimated their military capabilities.
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When I lived in the States they had bigger ST Patrick's day celebrations than Dublin, Chicago was immense with it's dyed green river.
It's amazing how a lot of American's think they are Irish...some of them have the old blood indeed others just assume as their surnames sound vaguely celtic that they are.
I have seen even the most ugliest Irishman...my Mate getting pulled just for having the accent...very strange....not to say they didn't know that my accent was Welsh;] why would they as most of them don't even know where Wales is.
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The Maginot Line the best defensive structure built to protect France from invasion from the Germans, until the Germans decided to go around it through Belgium......nevr trust someone that eats sparrow's.
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Another short history lesson to go with the earlier ones. Yes a lot of Americans can trace their roots back to Ireland. It's because, during the Irish potato famine (1845 - 1852) many emigrated to the US in search of a better life. Indeed it's estimated over a million people left on ships for America, so it's quite probably that many Americans do have some Irish blood in them. In fact even Barack Obama (as in US President Barack Obama, for those of you have haven't kept up with recent events), is part Irish. Its true! Obama's 4th Great Grandfather was a shoemaker from Moneygall in County Offaly, whose son Fulmuth emigrated for the US in 1850. Any guesses for what this guy's surname is? I guarantee the answer will give you a shock!
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The Kearneys to be sure!!!
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Another fact regarding the Irish
There are more Irish in Boston than Dublin!!
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Oh you ass you've clearly just googled that!
Rage!
That was going to be my 'ace in the hole'
But yea it's true. Kearney was this guys surname. So there is a distinct possibility that our Irish full back could very well be related to the US President. If I were Rob I would dine out on that for years!
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rugbythomas1951 223.
I was their during the darker times for Welsh rugby I guess my size made some people think twice although saying that there was quite a large Welsh contingent in Leicester at the time.
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WillyGilly1990 Even us Welsh know how to Google;]
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My above comment failed the profanity filter the first time around. Ironic really considering it wasn't even directed at an English person.
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Did u know
St. Patrick was a Welshman?
On March 17th, when St. Patrick's Day is widely celebrated in so many communities in the United States (where much more fuss is made than is found in Ireland), most Americans assume that Patrick was an Irishman. It is not so.
Though Patrick's birthplace is debatable, most scholars seem to agree that he was born in the area of southeastern Scotland known as Strathclyde, a former Celtic kingdom and Welsh-speaking at the time. (However, a few scholars continue to regard St. David's in Pembrokeshire as the saint's birthplace; the tiny city was formerly directly in the path of missionary and trade routes to Ireland).
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Well chaps all my Guinnesses are gone and its time for bed.
At my age I cant stay up too late.
I tell the Mrs its due to the altitude here in Joburg (and not at all due to the Guinnesses) and she pretends to believe me.
Good night all. Rob
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On the same note St David was Irish, born to a Irish family in Dyfed, Wales
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Flytaff
Have been in england for 35 years good and bad times i can onlt see good times ahead
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English_Rob_in_JHB Cheers Mate have a good you.
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Damn it all, in my haste to try and uncover if I had some 42nd cousin 5 times removed relationship to Obama, I've discovered my surname is actually Scottish. What a let down. No jibes please, just sympathy...
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rugbythomas1951 I know how you feel Mate, but I think your right, we certainly have the youngsters coming through..the likes of Gareth Owen, Sam Warburton, Josh Turnbill, Dan Biggar, Jonathan Spratt, Daniel Evans and of course the likes of Leigh Halfpeeny and Tom James.
WillyGilly1990 At least your still a Celt..could of been French!!!
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WillyGilly1990 Just found out my surname is either Irish or I'm English and related to the Duke Of Wellington........dilemma or what..no not really guess I'll take the Irish;]
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what's this friend re-united???????what happened to the rugby.
-Croftalicious- are you actually english?perhaps the least englishman i've ever seen, typical middle class bore that gives us a bad name....
I nearly just fell off my chair A) Flytaff went to University
B) Flytaff has a wife
WUMWUMWUMWUMWUMWUMWUMWUMWUMWUMWUMWUMWUMWUM WOW, SO CLEVER
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Where have all the Sais gone?
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squeakybumtime There you are...yes even us Welsh are educated in fact I'm pretty sure I out educate you my friend. Not hard really is it. I imagine you as short, bald with cauliflower years;] the type who would runaway if we ever met.
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Typo-cauliflower years- cauliflower ears before you make a kak remark about the spelling;]
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
No actually I have a degree in Architecture, Building Construction and I'm also a FAA Commercial pilot how about you.
Quote squeakybumtime
well I have a degree at being a Pratt and sitting at bars by myself as I have no Mates. Have not pulled in years really.
Sorry to hear that my friend
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squeakybumtime
Whats up squeaky trying to find the 2 A/S you have!!
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so you're a builder?
I'm chief executive of a multi-national corporation, with a 7 figure salary, in my spare time I am a fully qualified brain surgeon who also dables as a philospophy major, I am also Darth Vader.....or am I just a 14 year old boy?
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Well some of us are lucky...unfortunately you are not my friend. Mine happens to be true...yours is just another brainless thought you probably thought of at the dole office.
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If you are a 14 year old boy..which would not surprise me I suggest you go and get a girl friend, lose your cherry and grow up a little.
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Nooo....
What happened to the jovial atmosphere we had built up? Everyone was getting along so well and the you (squeakybumtime) had to come back and spoil it all! Again, in a vain attempt at unity I refer you to my earlier comment 212.
I'm almost certain that 249 is an attempt at sarcasm, as Darth Vader is a fictional character who doesn't exist. The following may surprise you however... I am in fact the Stig... yep it's true, ignore that publicity stunt you saw 2 weeks ago, it was just to attract more viewers. The man behind the white helmet every week is in fact myself... gosh coming out of the closet like that really does feel good...
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WillyGilly1990
So your German?
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SqueakyBumTime - I'm well impressed with that CV - don't know how you have time for it all mate. Well done anyway, you must be very proud.
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WillyGilly1990
I feel bad I've been putting down squeakybumtime who happens to be a 14 year old who has not lost his cherry:[
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Given he hasn't replied in 6 minutes I'd say he's on the phone with Danny Baker trying to think out a suitable comeback. Either that or you've upset him to the point of tears...
In regard to your comment 253 yea I guess you could say I do have german connections, though obviously not in the way you mean. My name 'William' comes from the old german dialect meaning 'will helmet'. Trivia fact for you - in the 1990 US census the 5th most popular name? William... thank you wikipedia
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WillyGilly1990 No I was referring to this..if you don't already know.
BBC QUOTE
The Stig, a mystery driver who tests high-performance cars on Top Gear, has been "revealed" as Michael Schumacher.
By the way if you are a bit German at least you have a good excuse to go to Oktoberfest;]
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Oh no i already told you sure, that was all a publicity stunt. Trust me I am the Real Stig...
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WillyGilly1990
OK I believe you.....like I'm chief executive of a multi-national corporation. Really.
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God the Wife's watching Robin Hood, even he's Irish. How do you lot multiply so quickly...
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No forms of protection in the days of Robin Hood. It also helps that our nation is extraordinarily well endowed...
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WillyGilly1990
I wonder how many English are Irish and don't even know about it?? You guys are experts at slipping woman one.
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My Irish Mate is not well endowed when i saw him in the showers after the rugby it was hidden away in the brush......yeah I know sounds perverted but nothing happened. He must be a throw back;] or maybe because he's Northen Irish?
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Another trivia fact for you, as far as I can tell there is no Irish word for adultery...
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I'm sodding Northern Irish! Rubbish you're talking now... Either that or jealousy...
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squeakybumtime: me middle class? haha! not even close! working class and proud of it :D if you can call a degree student working class...:-) and yes mate i am english check the name: CROFTalicious, Croft: Tigers, England and the Lions. there lies my allegiance laddie ;] and unlike you sir, im just polite and trying to talk about rugby, not slagging anyone else off, no matter how ignorant they may be...well ok maybe a little bit, but there are special circumstances for everyone ;]
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má ghríosann nó má aslaíonn sé duine eile go feasach agus go toiliúil = if he knowingly and willingly incites or induces another person that is married.
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Croftalicious
He's gone Mate, don't think he'll be back unless he really is very Tupe as we Welsh would say;] read the above comments.
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Sorry to bring this back to rugby but I have just watched the u-tube scrum video and Jones is certainly behind Jenkins. I can only assume that all the bloggers (I'm guessing they are English) who say otherwise can not be watching the same video as me.
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WillyGilly1990
Your Northern Irish, hey it was only a thought, maybe my Mate's just unique. It might be the religious aspect, Catholic or Protestant who knows.
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Awww MorrisDavies why did you have to come back to this blog and ruin it with your comments about rugby? Can't you see we're trying to have some intelligent conversation about other pressing matters...
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Maybe Catholics have smaller packages than protestants or Vice-Versa.
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what a shame hey? hehe.
morrisdavies you're very right...its amazing that some "fans" are sad enough to protest and protest (wrongly) when all they need to do is have a quick look...oh well.
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Were they talking about Alun Wyn Jones being behind Vickery in the second test though??? Not the third one. It was obvious that the Beast was boring in that test and that's all it was.
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Seeing as Vickery didn't feature in the second test I'd say thats unlikely. Come on flytaff give the english a wee bit of credit...
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WillyGilly1990
your playing with my mind now...
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I thought Dylan Hartley, Delon Armitage, Johnny Wilkinson and Danny Cipriani were fantastic in that second test!! Matthew Tait he can sure take a tackle!!
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Sorry Croftalicious just a bit of jest;]
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Croftalicious Are you coming down for the leicster V Osprey's match this year?
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277. That wasn't Dylan Hartley, that was Peter Wheeler!
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I sure hope so flytaff! plan to see more than the 4 games i got to this year...im thinking 3rd year at uni will have a slightly freer timetable!! wanna see shane attempt to stop tuilagi at full pelt again...forgive me, but that had to be one of the funniest things i think ive ever seen. the camera close ups show the fright etched in his eyes...not that i can blame him! id b scared if he was merely running in my general direction...let alone knowing I was supposed to be stopping him!
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flytaf- soory for delay, I was actually out participating in sport........my god, I was mearly pointing out how sadisticly narcacistic it is to parade ones 'achievements' around on a blog that is 'SUPPOSED' to be about a rugby tour......point being anyone can say anything about what they do/protest to do or otherwise, it really is a sign of a purile, pathetic existance when the only sense of self gratification one can aspire to is to parade their mediocre achievements on the BBC sport web page.....and thet make desperate attempts to make friends, I'm sure this is how you dreamed life would turn out.
As for croftalicous....duh...realy....so is dat what da name meant...ahh gosh, silly me.....your about as english as Bratwurst
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and for christ sake it's AWJ behind vickery
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Great barney, boys, only slightly diminished by noble-minded putative peacekeepers. I think even Bryn is wondering how he managed to trigger this lot! But I mean it: keep swinging the old handbags. It's just the tonic I've been needing to get over this Lions tour, and it will do as much as anything else to make it memorable.
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squeakybumtime you never learn do you...ask the moderator's.
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Bryn maybe you should remove squeakybumtime's comments regarding sheep if you plan to erase mine. His comments are also racist though old and unoriginal He claims to be a 14 year old boy so why the Censorship on my posting. I offer him good advice that's all.
Maybe you should have a word with him regarding his postings as it can be clearly see that he is offensive, Immature and starts arguments for the fun of it. he has even attacked his fellow Englishman.
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Croftalicious might see you down at the Liberty then. Regarding Shane, how he has got the guts to tackle players like tuilagi in the first place amazes me. Croft is always good to see, hopefully he won't have a good game on that day;] It will also be interesting to see if Jerry Collins is still that awesome player?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Not sorry about the 14 year old bit as you said you are 14 but to the other bits I mentioned;] (SEE 255)
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i tought this was a rugby blog...? england2003 back with the usual english bias and flytaff in hard with the welsh bias, does it alays have to be a battle about which of the 4 nations is the best and who should have gone on tour.....
i think the lions were very unlucky even before the tests with the loss of in my opinion 3 quality players in flannery, ferris and o'leary.....
although rees was good when he got his chance, flannery has a far superior throw and is better around the park, croft who in my opinion should have travelled in the original squad nd was good when he came in but he lacked the aggression of ferris who has been outstanding this season, phillips would have started the tests anyway but it ould have been nice to have a quality scrumhalf on the line also.....
tought kearney was immense and in my mind the lions player of the tour,
ideal lions team pre-tour
kearney
bowe
o'driscoll
roberts
fitzgerald
s jones
phillips
jenkins
flannery
a jones
shaw
o'connell
ferris
williams/wallace
heaslip
i think that team although only a couple of changes could have been crucial but we'll never know......
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paddyrugby why you always pick at me! what about squeakybumtime/handofjohnson/AJGS37 it's not just me sir.......Flytaff has properly been rinsed by post 282 absloute quality.....and at least I've kept it to rugby paddy and not a message board on facebook!!!!!
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england2003 Actually I silenced him all last night maybe he should join up with yourself as you obviously need all the help you can get.
paddyrugby no offense my friend but maybe you should read some of the things these people say before you judge me? Maybe I am wrong to retaliate and to you I apologize for that. To be honest I am tired of these trouble makers like england2003 who incidentally has just started some childish remarks about yourself...so I have decided not to respond to these immature comments hence forth merely out of choice and obviously not because their limited intelligence has fought me off. I just hope the moderator's will do their jobs;]
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england2003 - Have you read post #159 from Redpionkop yet. If you follow the link he supplied it clearly shows AWJ packing down behind Jenkins and not Vickery.
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Allah be praised it appears this blog discussion (argument) has ended.
Here endeth the lesson.
Wow, it's nearly time for my 1st Guiness...
[PS its a great time to be a Brit in SA - their moanings are getting louder and longer - now theres an outcry about the IRB saying they are going to sanction them!]
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English_Rob_in_JHB- how was your sleep at Altitude joburg?
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wow, wow, wow, wow what's with the england2003 gang up, all my posts have been rugby based, flytaff and squeakybumtime talk it to a personal level, and you have to admit it did get quite cheesey and off topic looking at the 'love-in'last night!, stop whining to the moderators, and judging by post 282 it was you flytaff who were silenced, don't think squeaky bumtime needs any help!
ctrl_alt_doh - yes I followed the link and actually posted a link on bryn's last collum and it's AWJ- why don't you respond to the 4 other people who stated this??????
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Paddyrugby- (back to rugby) that is with out doubt the most biased team selection I have ever seen, I'm surprised you didn'r put quinlan in at Fly Half, no doubt if YOU had picked the side pre-tour (as you claim this is) then old ROG the flid would of been at 10.......don't think anyone will ever pick him in an 'ideal' lions again!!!!.....and it was AWJ behind vicks ctr_alt_hmmmmmmmm
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Hi chaps (I wanted to write "gents" but...)
Its mid winter here and due the the altitude it gets cold at night.
But I slept well wrapped up in my springbok fur pyjamas...
The wife told me I slept with a big smile on my face all night.
The local websites are going ballistic.
Some silly suggestions that the Boks should pull out of world rugby.
Maybe they think they can find more suitable opposition on another planet (Mars?)
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paddyrugby Thought your player selection was reasonable. How about-
Bryne
bowe
o'driscoll
roberts
Kearney
s jones
phillips
jenkins
flannery/Mattehew rees
a jones
shaw
o'connell
ferris
williams/wallace
heaslip
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Handofjohnson and England2003 - Was Vickery wearing the number 3 shirt and POC wearing a red scrumcap?
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[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
If you guys want to sample a taste of the crap journo quality here in SA including their inflammatory comments vs the Lions then take a look at the above web page. I was so incensed last night that I had to respond.
FlyTaff this should restore focus vs the Boks rather than whether any given Lions player normally wears a blue, green, red or white jersey.
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Ctrl Alt Doh
Vickery was wearing the 3 shirt yes but POC had on his usual white head band with a red strip across it, this I fear is what confusing squeakybumtime, england2003 and others.
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how about
1.welsh
2.welsh
3.welsh
4.token-thankyou kind sirs for your gesture of someone outside of the land of celts
5.irish
6.irish
7.irish/welsh
8.irish
9.welsh
10.welsh
11.irish
12.welsh
13.irish
14.irish
15.irish welsh
remember the majority of the side named above LOST the 1st and 2nd test yet the side with 6 english players managed a victory!
you honestly believe that only one english player (and no scots) would be good enough to get in a british side.....and all the english guys are accused of having a chip on their shoulder, no doubt before the first test everyone of you celts had AWJ as a shoe in as well!!!!and shawsy ended up top 3 lions players!
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Hi there handofjohnson.
So, of Lee Mears, Tim Payne, Andrew Sheridan, Phil Vickery, Simon Shaw, Tom Croft, Joe Worsley, Harry Ellis, Riki Flutey, Ugo Monye who would you have had in above other players?
Shaw and Croft or Worsley for me but then I may well be biased.
I guess you will go for Andrew Sheridan, Simon Shaw, Joe Worsley, Riki Flutey, Ugo Monye.
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Nah, I'm not that biased1!! I would go for sheridan for sure as he has impressed me this tour, I've been critical of him before for not punching his weight but though especially when he came on in the second test he was superb and realy took the fight to the boks, although jenkins had a good season and is a good player I think he should of done a bit more against smit who is a hooker after all and considered a weakness before the tests took place
I would also have croft, as his athletisism is un- rivaled in NH at the min and some of his work in the line out is top draw
Monye a big yes, offers something the others don't, he's the fastest man in the squad with a 100m time of 10.6 secs on grass which is impressive, more than solid defence and his kicking game has improved dramatically, not the finished article put ahead fitzgerald/williams and as I say would give good balance to Bowe
Simon Shaw....of course, what a bloke! man mountain proved his worth, should of started first test
Ricky Flutey should of at least made the bench for first two tests, can cover at 12 & 10 and would have certainly made more of an imprssion than ROG!!!
Delon Armittage, I know Kearney played very,very well and I rate Byrne, but you can't say he didn't deserve to be in the squad, he was in better form than both going into the tour and could have offered wing and outside centre cover, why earls was ahead I don't know and like Shaw (who no one rated before tour and of course the mighty AWJ was a dead cert)if given a chance he could of made the starting line-up.
Vickery was hung out to dry after first test, he is the tallest prop so was always going to have problems binding with mears alongside, the man showed courage in bucket loads coming back from that and I'd want that in any team.
No go for Worsley/payne/ellis/mears I'm afraid, I wouldn't pick them in the england team!!!
Would of liked to see danny care/hartley/armittage/moody (if fit)/wilkinson(if fit, still the best 10 in NH......when fit!) in the squad as they would of given better options , just of course my humble opinion!!
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Wilkinson is certainly the best 10 in the NH. He was back in 2003 and maybe he will be again if he survives life in the French League..reckon he will injured in under a month personally. I would say there is at least 4 to 5 Flyhalfs better than him right now in the British and Irish isles.
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Best english comment by far above
Congratulations for proving there is at least some reasoning behind your arguments. I'd be hard pressed to find any flaws in your arguments except for a few points. I think Earls is for certain a future star. We in Ireland are all worried what impact it will have on the Irish team when BOD hangs up his boots. With this guy waiting in the wings, I reckon we should be okay. Still big boots to fill though. Armitage can consider himself unlucky, surprised he wasn't called up ahead of Halfpenny if I'm honest.
I was annoyed also that Geech didn't give Fluety the chance to play alongside BOD. It seemed that after the second match the management had already made up it's mind about the centre partnership. Don't get me wrong, it worked well, but I still think Fluety missed an big opportunity there, through no fault of his own though.
Shaw was awesome in the second 2 tests and proved what an aged veteran of the sport can do. This puts the argument that BOD could tour in 4 years into perspective as he'll be 3 years younger than Shaw is at the moment.
Out of the 3 number 11s Monye performed best. Anyone who says otherwise should just look at the stats. If memory serves Shane had more game time than anyone else, and was only able to put his try scoring abilities to work in the final match - not good enough for a world player of the year. Fitzgerald isn't the finished article yet, but mark my words he will shine in years to come.
Not sure about Moody or Wilkinson (the glory days are over) but I'd have care over blair and hartley over ford any day of the week.
Good to see no mention of Cipriani or Bothwick!
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Ok, so you would have
15 Kearney.
14 Bowe
13 O'Driscoll
12 Roberts
11 Monye
10 Jones
9 Phillips
8 Heaslip
7 Wallace
6 Croft
5 Shaw
4 O'Conall
3 Sheriden
2 Reese
1 Jones (As Vickery is too tall)
Only 3 and 11 are different for me so I don't think there is too much difference between and Englishman and this Welshman's choice.
Granted this is taken from the squad that went and not what you thought the team was before they selected it but not miles apart.
Personally thought Ryan Jones should have gone instead of Powell, anyone ahead of Earls (he was too inexperienced - good prospect for the future).
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hard to say, would have 1.Sheridan & 3.) Vickery for sure ......if dylan hartley was on tour (who is ten times the player of mears) than he would of had a shout, and armittage never got the oppourtunity, was realy impressed with phillips at 9 but again no one was pushing him which I think care would of and flutey was unfortunate not to get more opportunities as Roberts/O'driscoll were picked early on, he was superb in the 3rd test
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Slightly going off track here, but can I ask how many english contributors actually like Steve Bothwick as the captain of their national team?
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"204. At 5:03pm on 06 Jul 2009, WillyGilly1990 wrote:
Wow okay time for me to get involved again. AJGS37 how can you possibly say that the Irish pack is weak? From my reckoning out of the 8 players in a Lions pack at least 4 would be Irish (Flannery, POC, Heaslip and either Wallace or Ferris) explain yourself please?"
Sorry fot late reply, been busy.
Wallace had a terrible tour was average at best, Heaslip was poor in the first 2 tests and whilst was great in the last really shouldn't have been playing, POC proved he is average at best, I like Ferris, but one player doesn't make a scrum, ask Scotland.
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Bothwick shouldn't even be playing club rugby.
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yay! finally we're all talking about rugby again!! woohoo!!
@ 313: very UNhappy...for me he's 3rd/4th choice in the second row behind shaw, kennedy, kay (and croft).
also agree with general sentiment that Armitage deserved to be on tour far ahead of Earls, 1/2P and on form (if they were only picking 2 fullbacks) Kearney. needless to say im glad Kearney went, for he was outstanding on the tour. some players like the big occasions, he's clearly one of them.
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Agreed Armitage over Earls. Ryan Jones over Powell. If I was in charge of one of the big clubs Ferris would be a major catch...someone should be able to snatch him away from Ulster. Croftalicious just out of interest who are the hot prospects for England in the second row position?
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you know what flytaff...im really really afraid that i have no idea...im hoping that's through my ignorance of up and coming second rows, and not through the absence of ANY up and coming second rows in England... :S :S we shall see!! i also like Tom Palmer in this position, forgot to mention him, but he's one who goes notoriously absent unless play is decidedly on the front foot...its been clear for wasps the season for their pack in general, but in players like Haskell and Rees they had some guys always going in for the fight (except of course when Haskell was warming the bin) but the others tended to look a bit like they weren't all that fussed to be there.
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Researching English hot prospects for the second row Is a hard one. We already know the Steve Bortwick's, Simon Shaw's, Ben Kays, TOM PALMER's , NICK KENNEDY's, anyone younger than those last couple I have a hard job finding....did find Stuart Hooper-Saracens and Martin Purdy-Wasps U21 level but not much info on them. Croft plays OK their but right now I would keep him on the flank.
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One thing I believe is that the England management have a habit if things go wrong in chopping and changing, players like Danny Cipriani, Matthew Tait, Olly Morgan, Shane Geraghty, & Toby Flood who are the future of English in the backs should be starting.
It was good to see Delon Armitage, Danny Care, Ugo Monye & Banahan get chances.
Forwards-Lee Mears reminds me of Gareth Williams (Cardiff Blues), a fair line out thrower, good around the park but both to small.
It may be a correct move to bring Dylan Hartley in now.
Think your flanks and no.8 positions are covered well, not sure why Steffon Armitage has gotten so many chances recently...can't say I know to much about him?
Second Rows-I think new blood is the key, get those old boys like Shaw training them.
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David Strettle ???? Think he is very talented. In Saxons
Sam Vesty-in Saxons but again great player
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Strettle's awesome, best first step in the english game, and im a HUGE vesty fan, think he's been (definately) one of leicester's most underrated players for a long long time, and he's a proper nice bloke too! i was ecstatic at his form in the run in, fully deserving of his england birth! i agree that backs-wise its time to blood the younger guys properly...but at the same time, cueto was on fire the back end of last year, and age doesnt seem to be slowing tindall that much, a level head there is always vital...we have the options in the backs;
back row we now have abundance, i like Steffon Armitage, he was definately a decisive force in Irish's amazin year as he's such a grafter, and an absolute bull of a man, add Croft, Worsely, Rees, Haskell, Jordy Crane, Narraway, Easter et all...absolute abundance of good players, and players with immense potential. front rowers we're ok on. BUT! what is the general thought on Matt Stevens: if he hadn't been found out for doing illegal drugs, would he have been on the Lions shortlist? i reckon he would have been you know...at expense of jones or vickery? second row...as i said...worrying a little, im sure johnno will think of something! he was the dogs there himself!
bags of potential in the england set up...it just remains to be seen if Johnson can really mould them into world beaters.
seeing as im a tiger through and through im gonna say that of course he can! :D
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I think Wales and England are the forces most likely to break into the top 3 on a consistent level in the near future...Ireland maybe, not to sure what their strength in depth right now, but I don't see any world class fly halves ready to take O'Gara's place. Maybe that Saxon guy from Leinster..think he's Irish?
For years Wales did not even consider strength in depth and our scouts were poor, I remember saying to my friend that Rob Howley when he was at Bridgend should play for Wales.....it took Wales another 2 years to give him the chance.
Anyway for instance at fly half we have Stephen Jones, James Hook, Dan Biggar all the levels of age coming through which is great to see.....the only weakness I would say for us right now is open-side flanker. we need some world class flanker's coming in right now!!Martyn Williams cannot last forever. Also I still think a World Class line out jumper would be good.
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there's a second row at sale, Schofield who every time I've seen has impressed but isn't one of johno's favourites, also chris jones at sale has shown a lot of potential but hasn't been given a consistant run of games due to the HUGE squad at Sale....think the second row is a position in transition (or was) with the ELV's introduced meaning oppo teams were starting to stop challenging at line-outs and concentrating on stopping the go forward, with the re-introduction (thank god) of the rolling maul that may change, but we have seen france deploying 'Chebal' in the second row recently....due to england's abundance of talent in the back row, haskell (when arsed), reese, narroway,crane,moody,worsley,easter,robshaw,armittage,lipman and others there's no reason croft can't make a name for himself in second row if partnered up with a 'beast' like shaw, why borthwick is even playing I have no idea, he may have some naughty pics of johnson or something...............leading on to johno's fav's I can't believe strettle isn't in the squad, think it's to do with the 'incident'in new zealand a few years back, I rate him above any back in england...........on another point 2years back there was a guy playing at bristol (still is) Dan ward smith (8) who for me was the future, after waiting for a long time (as usual) to get a squad place he had a shocking injury and has been a ghost of the player since, real shame as he was 'spies' like in his pace and power at the base of the scrum, anyway he's not but still a shame as easter does tend to......shall we say 'trundle'!!!
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Flytaff - in respect to a quality openside - what are your thoughts on young Sam Warburton? I've watched him play quite a few games at both U21 and senior level and he looks to me to be the obvious candidate to take over from Nugget.
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handofjohnson - Kingley Jones is a very good talent spotter I think I have heard of this Chris Jones. He also spotted Eifion Roberts the Welsh prop who I believe soon will be playing for Wales more regular. One thing which he has done being Welsh himself is to tap into the players coming through in North Wales unlike some of our clubs in South Wales. thanks for the tips on who is coming through.
tomo1978 Got to say your spot on with Sam Warbuton, if he can keep the injuries at bay. I have watched him at U21 level and there's just something about him that makes you sit up. He came on and played for Wales against the USA If I remember correctly and did a really good job.
I think he could push Sowden taylor all the way bit right now isn't he playing blindside flanker? We need to get him openside, he is bigger, more physical and can be as fast as Martyn Williams.
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handofjohnson -
Dan Ward-Smith was he at Wasps at one time?
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I'm not sure whether he's playing 6 or 7, I'm sure he played 7 for the Wanderers. One to watch for next season though. Just a thought....and nobody shout me down for this, what about converting Phillips?
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handofjohnson: Dan Ward Smith is a brilliant 8! my old coach loved him! he was a bristol lad...maybe bias? but whenever i watched him he did seem to have something about him...maybe was a step off reading wise, but when he knew what was going on he could be devastating. and also i think the croft + beast thing would work good, as croft's athleticism would mean like having a further back row forward in the loose...the only problem would be if the scrum started going backwards and there was nothing in the engine room...worrying times? though i have to say im extremely pleased with getting rid of the 'legal maul collapsing' ELV...that was such a huge part of the game that it was like playing with only one leg at lineout time!
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tomo1978 One's to watch for this season
Sam Warbuton (Blue's), Ashley Beck-center (Osprey's), Ben Lewis-openside flanker (Osprey's), Craig Mitchell-Prop (Osprey's), Kristian Phillips-Wing (Osprey's), Jonathan Spratt-Center (Osprey's). Tom Isacc-Scrum Half (Osprey's), Dafydd Hewitt-Center (Blue's), Tom James-Wing (Blue's), Joe Bearman (Cornish)-Flanker (Dragon's), Jason Tovey-Fullback (Dragon's), Ashley Edward Smith-center (Dragon's), Daniel Evans-Fullback (Scarlets), Jonathan Davies-Center (Scarlets), Tavis Knoyle-Scrum half (Scarlets), Lee Williams-Wing (Scarlet's), Ken Owens-Hooker (Scarlets), Josh Turnbull-Flanker (Scarlets), Richie Pugh-Flanker (Scarlets)
A lot of hot propects their, some older faces like Richie Pugh etc. We need a Wales A back and get these boys playing in the Churchill Cup in the Summer!!!
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328 tomo1978- Phillips- Not such a bad idea we have so many good scrum halves...would he want to blemish his pretty boy looks?? I kinda like to see him at center but again we have a lot of good players their too.
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tomo1978 Forget to ask if you know anything about this. Paul Tito he has New Zealand U21 caps, but I think as he has no full cap fot NZ ,he might be eligible for Welsh selection soon, what a great second row addition may tidy up our lineout!!
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Can a be a little hard nosed here? What matters more than anything else in Test match rugby? Yes that's right, goal kicking.
I'm sure we all remember the key moments of the 1997 SA tour, ah...... Daws's dummy, Jonno's captaincy, Jezza's drop goal, Gibbsy barrelling through Fat Ox du Randt........er, well no, actually.
I remember Jinksy's goal kicking - 'cos if he hadn't done his job so well, the Lions would have lost. He was irreplaceable, and, quite simply, there is no other player on that tour you can say that about.
One thread runs through both tours - the team that scored the most tries lost the series. This time round, Stephen Jones had a wonderful tour at outside half, but, if you're serious about winning, then you have to have a top notch goal kicker and, with the best will in the world, Jonesy's never gonna be that. I've followed his goalkicking career (painfully) ever since he missed all 3 shots at goal in the first half against England in the 2003 RWC quarter-final - and, thanks to that, we've now we've got Will Greenwood as a pundit, Matt Dawson on 'A Question of Sport' & Radio 5 Live, and The Leicester Lip on Britain's Got Celebrity Dancers on Ice Station Zebra.
Jones has been flakey for years - granted he has his moments (he was immaculate in the 2nd test) but, poor one test, great the other isn't good enough - the damage was done by then. When he missed his first 2 penalties in the 1st test, it was a fair bet that the Lions had just lost the series. 6 points went begging, they lost the match by 5 and the mountain was too big to climb from then on.
I'm aware that's a harsh judgement on a good man and an excellent rugby player but it's a judgement on McGeechan, really. In 1997, McGeechan knew that if you want to win, then first name on the teamsheet has to be the best goalkicker you can lay your hands on. Neil Jenkins, with parachute strapped to his backside, was no-one's idea of a full back, but a place had to be found for him and he duly kicked the Lions to victory.
Just think...the best goalkicker in the world was available for Lions selection, but probably watched the tour on the telly like the rest of us. Shame, really...all 4 home nations would then have had a Test starter and what a triumph it would have been.
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secondchrissyboy
Agreed Stephen Jones is not up their with Neil Jenkin but he's still a good kicker...just lacks the long range boot really. However he is certainly a Midfield General and his displays in the test impressed me.
I think that's why the Welsh management are keen on Hook playing at center sometimes and certainly Leigh Halfpenny on the Wing for that long range strike.
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agreed also...but then even before the test i think everyone wanted jones in for his rugby ability, not just his kicking. hook was out wasn't he? so that left ROG (kicker), or Jones (player) and Jones was almost everyone's first choice.
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Biggest mistake ever giving Stephen Jones the long range kick with no time left in the Ireland V Wales 2009. Why did Hook come on before time and take it. I also think they dropped Leigh Halfpenny for that match for Mark Jones big mistake as Leigh could certainly of got it.
Ireland deserved to win though.
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As a Osprey's fan I think Hook is still a unfinished article. Some times his decision making is unreliable at best and he certainly lacks command of his position sometimes. Yet he can create those spaces with that magic of his. I think the key word for him next season is consistency!!
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Croftalicious
Believe Hook had concussion.
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Flytaff 330 - You've just given me a hope of a bright future with the names you mentioned there. I forgot that there was such an abundance of young Welsh talent out there. I especially like Joe Bearman, he's a hard good player, exactly what we need in the back row and Ben Phillips of the Ospreys is definitely one to watch.
332 - Isn't this the same situation that happened with Flutey? Tito would defnitely be a great addition to the Welsh team. I'm not sure how old he is, but think he has a few years left in him yet. AWJ and Tito in the second row? Now that would be worth watching. Shame Rush has a full NZ cap!!!
SecondChrissyboy - agreed with your comments re: kickers, but I think Stephen Jones was the best they could do. His kicking isn't quite up there with Jenkins, but is defnitely a more complete outside half. No doubt had Hook not been injured he would have been on the bench instead of O'Gara, who in my opinion is a great kicker but brings very little else to the fold. Unfotunately at present, and until Wilkinson gets back to full fitness, if he ever does, and I hope he does, Jones is the best complete outside half that we have in the NH, and he doesn't miss that many kicks.
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339.tomo1978
I believe Tito is 31 not to old and he is needed. Rush yeah a shame and Regan King with his 1 cap for NZ. They were talking up Ben Lewis as Martyn Williams replacement before he got that nasty injury but he's back now so we'll see how he does this season. I'm also looking forward to see if Jerry Collins is still that star player.
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Hey flytaff regarding your comment about the Irish strength in depth we have I'm not to worried. We have a fantastic set of players already in the national squad and we have an awesome set ready to step up and replace them when the time comes. Did you watch any of the Churchill Cup Final? I was exceptionally impressed with our back line there are some real good prospects there.
On the subject of goal kicking, again I can't say I'm worried. In the short term, replacements for O'Gara include Wallace (Paddy) and Kearney. Longer term, yea you're right Sexton of Leinster looks good for me. He also proved he can hack it at the highest level, having played in the HC final. I'd expect him to make his debut sometime in the Autumn. Also waiting eagerly for the return of Trimble to the Ireland set up. He played well at 12 with BOD, when D'Arcy is out, it would be great to see him back there.
On the subject of Ferris, I could probably give you a certain guarantee, he'll still be playing his rugby at Ulster for some time to come. Having grown up watching a club like Ulster and dreaming of 1 day playing for them, I'd say you wouldn't really want to swap that for somewhere else away from your home, but hey I may be wrong... We've also got a fantastic new coach at Ulster, ex Ireland skills coach worked with O'Sullivan, I'm expecting big things this season.
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secondchriissyboy-
Firstly if that was an insinuation that if Stephen Jones had been on 'kickiing form' then wales would have beaten england on that glorious day in 2003 then you really either a) have a serious personal issue with stephen jones to which you blame everything in your life that goes wrong b) are in a drug induced deluded state
Also the game has changes a hell of a lot since Jenkins' day, yes he was a great goal kicker but I'm afraid you can't 'carry' someone for the ability to goal kick these days remember:
1) Jenkins played full back not fly half
2) Think about the work of byrne and kearney at full back and then consider what Jenkins would have done in those situations!
Great kicker but it would have been worse than O'gara with the physical specimens running at him, would have been a car crash!
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WillyGilly1990 - I think Ireland are going to keep pushing for the top spot in the 6N as there is plenty of talent coming up through the "A" team. Sexton had a fine game in the HC final (and I support Tigers).
At least Ireland will not need to go out looking for kiwis to provide them with star players.
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ctrl_alt_doh, that's because the only players who want to go and play in ireland are ex-internationals who are passed it and so can't qualify any way! quite ironic for an irish man to making the point, is there anyone who plays for the Republic Football Team with an irish accent?.......oh well sir I went there once does that count?! aka tony casscarino,
there's no depth in irish rugby as there are only 2 teams who players are picked from, more than 2 injuries in one position and the game would have to be postponed!
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If there's no depth in Irish rugby how come Ireland A destroyed (yea destroyed) the English Saxons side? An English Saxons side with capped internationals in it... Explain away please I'm intrigued...
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Many reasons,
1)The competition is mickey-mouse
2)There was a full england squad containing 35 players away in argentina as well as the lions squad
3)In relation to point 2 would Ireland of been able to field 2 squads on top of the lions?
4) when ever ireland play england the motivation is so immense and emotion/intensity ther (on ireland's part of course) as when any other british team play england as this is the 'big one'... lads hundreds of years of opression etc etc blah blah blah.
5)Again regarding motivation there were many players on the saxons tour who may have thought they shouldn't e.g should of been with full squad.
6) the english players had been playing a long season in first class rugby in the prem and HC
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oh and england had won the last 4/5 mickey mouse cups, had better results against other teams USA and more than likeley got complacent as they (like everyone outside ulster) had never heard of any of the irish boys......
Conversations such as-
Irish 'A' Fly half- I'm playing against golden balls danny ciprianni today, it's the biggest game of my life, I'll show the smug, arrogant so and so
Danny Cip- 12 months ago I thought I'd be on the lions tour, then I didn't make the englan squad and now I'm playing rugby against some fella I've never seen before in front of one man and his dog....
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Okay nice of you to break up your arguments like that
1)Don't think the competition is a mickey-mouse its fantastic development for young players coming through the ranks and provides a handy step up for international level. I'm sure plenty of english players have benefited from it. Armitage for 1 - he did play for the Saxons I think...
2)There was also a squad of Ireland players doing a tour of Canada and the US before the Churchill Cup. I don't think there were 35 involved, the number 25 springs to mind I think. Either way, the majority were then sent home, and only 1 that I know of joined up with the Ireland A squad for the Churchill Cup
3) So yea - see above.
4) Well I would argue a similar situation right back, and I can back it up with facts. Remember Ireland had that record 40 odd points victory over you guys 2 years ago. What happened in 2008? Thats right you came back and completely destroyed us. Are you going to tell me there wasn't some 'revenge type/they humiliated us so lets go get them' motivation in place there?
5)Yea I guess I'd have to agree with you there. Cipriani for a start, even though he came on as a sub. And there was a winger as well if memory serves can't remember his name though. Began with H. I actually think the match commentator made a point similar to yours during the match
6)Yea okay lets not get into another Magners League Vs Guiness Premiership debate, because I'd only end up making you look silly. The Irish players also had a long domestic season, and an Irish side actually won the HC. Alright we played in fewer competitions but if England really does have the strength of depth you keep talking about, then surely the english clubs should be able to handle the extra games no?
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Sorry was typing away there so didn't notice your other comment pop up. To be honest if that's the reason England Saxons lost. Complacency? I'd question whether or not I'd give them a second chance. If you're good enough to make it at the top level (Lions style) you should be willing to prove it, no matter what level you are playing at.
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How many of the Irish A squad played in the HC then? how many played in the leinster/munster first XV,
And the Mangners league is a complete joke, even Munster/Leinster/Ospreys don't take it seriously! there was a game I was unfortunate enough to catch when Ospreys played Connaucht during the 6 nations, the ospreys had over 20 players unavialable due to injury and international duty and still won comfortably-
it's not at all competetive with the only good games are when munster/leinster/cardiff/ospreys play each other and let's face it that those 4 teams make up 90% of two top 6 International teams so how can it be justifiably competetive?
Oh at least a couple of Italian teams have been invited to join so that should raise the quality.......especially seeing as all the good italian players don't even play in Italy!!!!!!!go on then make me look silly!!
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Gosh you got very angry there, very quickly - that's not good for your health.
In answer to your question I count 4 in the Leinster/Munster starting XV.
And yea I'm sure Munster, Leinster and the Ospreys don't take it seriously! As you mentioned that match you watched was during the 6 nations - I'm sure it's probably the same in every country (England as well) playing for the national side gets a higher priority than playing for your club.
I notice you didn't address my question about strength of depth. If English clubs, and England really do have that then, why can't they challenge more in the HC?
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Stength in depth is quite obviously answere as there are more professional teams and players in england than Ireland/wales/scotland that's just a fact!
As for the HC since it was 'cretated' in 1996 an english team has won the tournament 6 times, french team 4 times and Irish 4 times, so I think that blows that point out of the water....
As for why, the Irish teams have prospered recently? well the way the 'regional' scenario in both wales and ireland is structured means you don't get the same turnover of players as traditional club rugby, remember the majority of the Munster team have been together for around ten years and also repesent their country on a regular basis, this of course is not the case with traditional club rugby as there is a higher t/over players....
You could argue this was the case in england when the majority of players came from leicester/wasps this coincided with a period when both wasps and leicester won the HC, however there is much more even distribution of international players across the GP.......you could never get a scenario in the GP though where one team was missing 20 players and still managed to win!!!!!
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I'm not seeking to deny that fact however this is largely down to the size of your country though isn't it? Bigger population = more rugby players to choose from - that's just a fact. That is where you get your strength in depth from.
I agree with you though the turnover of players in countries like Scotland, Wales and Ireland isn't anywhere near what its like in England. Surely though this takes away somewhat from the 'team atmosphere' is there are new faces in the changing room year after year. If this is the reason why Irish teams have prospered recently, then what is your solution for all the English sides out there?
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Good last paragraph Willy and one of our main problems.
Can't believe Kennedy and Sacky have gone from the main squad for England and I real talent in Haskey completely dropped
I know Johnson clearly has a plan, but I'll be ****** if I know what it is yet, and that is where Wales and Ireland have the jump on England, a mainly settled team where you can introduce players over time.
Apart from Borthwick who shouldn't (in my opinion) even be in the squad, not one player is sure of his place and that's not a good thing.
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I'm no expert on the England team/players but i'm always a bit miffed at some of the selection processes M Johnson seems to use.
There is no doubt England have some real quality players but it's almost as if M Johnson purposely drops any player showing any signs of promise.
Strettle for one would walk into most teams. Foden, Sackey, Cipriani(although i don't like the fella) all have promising talent so why not play them).
I think whilst they are in the transition mode now is the time to bleed these players in. As good a player as Wilkinson is/was, i personally see it as a backward step picking him in the Elite squad. Christ, he's gone to France just to get out of the goldfish bowl of English rugby thinking he could see out the last years of his career quietly and low and behold he's straight back in the first team squad. Although he must be a better option than Goode, what was the thinking there?
Oh well whilst he tinkers with the team hopefully us Welsh can keep on beating them!!!
Keep up the good work Mr Johnson!!!
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Personally I think Johnson has done the right thing by putting Cipiriani in his place. His has the potential to be an excellent player, but was in severe danger of getting too big for his boots. On Wilkinson? Hmm lets wait and see how he performs.
Also england2003 where ever you have gone and others. Do you not feel, that long term, the high turnover of players in the GP not to mention the massive influx of foreign players, is harmful for your youth squads? By this I mean, surely there are not enough places for young English players to develop, because the squads are filled with players from France, Italy, Australia and beyond
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Well willy (p.s. to AJGS37 think willy was refering to club sides rather than national, but you have a good point) perhaps we should look at a regional system as well, reducing the number of teams and limiting the number of foreign players, but I can't see as there's too much money involved and supporters of certain clubs (Leicester/gloucester/bath) wouldn't go for it!!!
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sorry missed that last one willly, the youth side looks quite preomising at the min I've been impressed with under 20's and under 18's and they blood some on the 7's circuit which can be of benefit, there does seem to be a problem in transition to first team level though as the squads are so big anyway and the teams just can't afford to play un-proven players, the magners league does allow the youngsters an opportunity due to its lack of depth (I'm not being cheeky) as munster for example know they can play 3/4 younger players and still beath the dragons/scarletts/ulster/connaucht....and now the italians too!!
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I dont think that the regional system would work as well in england...particularly the north of the country where the only rugby that matters is league. wigan and newcastle arent exactly guiness premiership powerhouses are they? but I do agree that the foreign player influx has limited the oppurtunities of some good youngsters at clubs like Leicester, Gloucester and Bath. Whereas Wasps' system usually sees them blood in the homegrown talent with foreign talent; im particularly watching Waldouck and Cipriani closely, as Im a big fan of both players, even though Cippers seems to be a bit big for his boots. Rees, Voyce, Sackey, Haskell etc were all young wasps who have made a place for themselves. One prime example for the Tigers i think is Ollie Smith...the guy had magic in his hands and head...only to have his appearences limited by injury and the aquisiton of players like Tuilagi, Rabeni, Mauger etc (dont get me wrong, all AWESOME players too, but on the foreign argument...) and his star appears to be fading and he's only in his mid-20's...
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I don't think foreign players are just a problen in GP, it's across the board, in ireland munster have 4/5 new zealenders and leinster have australians, argetntinians and so on, go down to wales and the ospreys's/cardiff have a decent number of foreign players that is on the increase, I don't think there is any defence for the above mentioned regional teams having ANY foreign players as if there's not a current welsh/irish international in that position than where are they going to come from? these teams are meant to have the 'cream' of welsh/irish talent, if you can't find 30 players than your in trouble, at least in GP you have 12 teams to split the impact across and there is also a very competetive 2nd tier......I'd ask the question to willygilly1990 what he thinks of the 2 teams that provide the vast majority of the national side having foreigners in key positions?
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I take it you're meaning Leinster and Munster, and the key positions being?
I think my argument was of the influx of foreign players into our leagues in general not just the GP, apologies if I came across otherwise. I'm an Ulster fan so this may not come across as expert but I'll do my best.
Leinster will find it difficult next season, and it will be interesting to see if they concentrate their efforts on retaining the HC or challenging for the ML title. They've lost 2 massive players in Contepomi and Rocky Elsom. Whilst the Irish have good depth regarding the 10 shirt our props are probably the weakest positions with neither Hayes or Horan doing anything spectacular. Tom Court looks like a good player, but at 28 is he past his best to make any lasting impact? Not sure
Munster are okay really as far as foreigners are concerned. Only Mafi or Howlett spring to mind and they play in the back line where Ireland are pretty much covered, in every position.
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341.WillyGilly1990 sorry it took a while to get back to you.
Your point about Ferris wanting to stay at Ravenhill for a few years maybe right.....you boys sure love that club and it's good to see that sort of loyalty in today's professional game.
Been to Ravenhill.....I think it rains their more than Wales, and my Irish Catholic friend was being very quiet;] The burgers are the best!I like Trimble and I'm a big fan of Shane Hogan....that boy is powerful, I think it is a shame that he is being neglected by Ireland. Glad you confirmed my opinion's regarding Sexton too. What Props have you got coming through to replace big John Hayes??
Unfortunately I missed Ireland A beating England Saxon's in the Churchill Cup..I see some people made excuses for that too? Anyhow hopefully Wales will get our act together soon and reform our A team it would make some good competition.
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True story about the rain I have yet to be at a dry Ulster match in my 9 or so years off attending. In fact the only time I haven't been saturated watching rugby at Ravenhill is when the Schools Cup is on. Bad Times.
Sadly not much to speak of I'm afeared. We have no one who could step into the brink with any real conviction if god forbid Hayes or Horan gets injured or retires. The only tangible replacement is Tom Court and he's 28, hardly a long term replacement. He did feature in the 6 nations though. Aside from him the likes of Tony Buckley (Munster), Mike Ross (Harlequins) and Bryan Young (Ulster) all toured with the Ireland team in Canada and the US recently. None really did anything special to impress me. I'm assured by my friends though that Young is likely to improve this season and challenge for a national spot come the autumn. Lets just say I'm not holding my breath. Both he and Buckley also toured and triumphed with Ireland A a few weeks ago. Also on that tour was Leinster prop Cian Healy, don't hold out much hope for him either though. Indeed I remember seeing highlights of a Munster Vs Leinster game this season where Healy was actually handed off by Earls, Earls then went on to score. However at 21 he is the youngest, and therefore most likely long term replacement.
T'is worrying times though, to be sure...
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Hey Luke-SA Fan #19
No need for the conceitedness re 2nd XV and fans rejoicing like they had just won the WC. Champ that is your interpretation of their elation. Would it have served your purposes better if they clapped the Boks off the field and kept their rejoicing to a minimum in observing a series lost maybe?? Your just sore your team got turned inside out.... doing Dingo Deans and Graham Henry a HUGE favour! What was most alarming for SA was how easily the niggle & dirt entered their play as soon as they ceased dominating possession and territory. Springboks as the world knows em!
Further - if that was your 2nd XV (which obviously they were not as with the exception of maybe 1-2 players they rivaled those playing the week before) SA has bugger all depth don't they.
GREAT win by the Lions who by virtue of Lukes interpretation of player roster were fielding their "B" team too. That was the most convincing win over a Tri-nations team ever bringing SA crashing back to terra firma!
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