Have officials turned a blind eye to Burger?
Johannesburg, Monday afternoon
Eye-gouging, along with biting, and kicking an opponent's head, has long been seen as one of rugby's three greatest sins.
So the outrage that has greeted the actions of Springboks flanker Schalk Burger against British and Irish Lions wing Luke Fitzgerald in Saturday's second Test comes as no surprise.
Nor does the general impression that Burger, who received an eight-week ban after a lengthy disciplinary hearing, has got off rather lightly.
The sense of injustice and disgust springs from not just the fact the Lions should have been playing against 14 men for 79 minutes, but that South Africa appear to have all but absolved the player of responsibility. 
Springboks head coach Peter de Villiers provided further ammunition for those who believe he is fast becoming a joke figure with his comments about the incident at the post-match media conference.
While we are used to coaches defending their players to the hilt even when the evidence against them is damning, De Villiers subjected himself to open ridicule when he said he didn't believe Burger's actions even merited a card.
While rugby is a primitive sport in many respects and has long been associated with acts of violence on the field, De Villiers' view that "this is sport, this is what it is all about" sparked incredulity among his audience.
Having viewed the footage again, on Monday he maintained that Burger "did nothing on purpose" and that "he is an honourable man".
The first point is certainly open to question, the second an interesting slant.
Burger, for all his abrasiveness on the field, is by all accounts a popular, outgoing character off it, who has a good rapport with opposition players, with whom he enjoys socialising after a game.
But his reputation as a hard-but-fair player is now surely tarnished forever.
With the welter of TV cameras at major Test matches these days, and the likelihood of being caught, one wonders what was going through his head barely 30 seconds into the match in Pretoria.
Perhaps he wanted to test the veracity of the eve-of-match comments by Lions forwards coach Warren Gatland that the tourists 'would not take a backward step'.
The incident was unusual of its kind in that it was picked up by the officials straight away, and dealt with promptly, instead of retrospective action being taken when an incident is highlighted after a game.
Touch judge Bryce Lawrence did well in the first instance to even spot the incident out the corner of his eye in the aftermath of a first-minute ruck.
Replays showed Burger pulling Fitzgerald to the ground with his right arm round the Irishman's neck, before bringing his left arm round in front of his own face and directing his left middle finger towards Fitzgerald's eye area.
To this observer, the intent of Burger's actions appeared quite evident, and Lawrence appeared to agree. He was heard telling referee Christophe Berdos that there were "clearly fingers in the eye" before giving the Frenchman his recommendation: "I think it is at least a yellow card".
As an experienced referee, the question remains why if Lawrence was so sure of what he had seen, he did not more forcibly recommend a red card, rather than giving Berdos the easier option, in the opening moments of a major Test, of brandishing a yellow.
Citings can only be made if the match commissioner, in this case New Zealander Steve Hinds, considers offences serious enough to have demanded more than the punishment handed out by the referee.
Sometimes sentences are reduced on the basis that actions are deemed reckless rather than intentional, as was the case with Italy captain Sergio Parisse, who was also given an eight-week ban for gouging All Black lock Isaac Ross in Auckland on Saturday.
But no such mitigation was given by the judicial officer in the case of Burger, who was found guilty of 'making contact with the face in the eye area'.
His eight-week ban is certainly lenient if recent precedent in the northern hemisphere is anything to go by.
Four British or Irish international players have been banned for eye-gouging over the past two years.
The most recent was Munster flanker Alan Quinlan, who lost his place on this Lions tour after 'making contact with the eye area' of Leinster lock Leo Cullen in a Heineken Cup semi-final in May.
Quinlan received a 12-week ban, six less than Northampton's Ireland flanker Neil Best for 'making contact with the eye or eye area' of Wasps flanker James Haskell in a Premiership match last September.
Leicester's Fijian wing Seru Rabeni, who is now at Gloucester, was also banned for 14 weeks in April last year for gouging Saracens hooker Andy Kyriacou.
Another Northampton player, England hooker Dylan Hartley, received a six-month ban after being found guilty on two counts of gouging, also against Wasps, in April 2007, ruling him out of the World Cup later that year.
The Rugby Football Union's chief disciplinary officer, Judge Jeff Blackett, adjudicated in both the Best and Hartley cases, plus another recent incident on behalf of Heineken Cup organisers when Perpignan's Romanian hooker Marius Tincu was banned for 18 weeks after a match against Welsh region the Ospreys.
"Contact with an opponent's eye is a serious offence because of the vulnerability of the area and the risk of permanent injury," Blackett said. "It is often the result of an insidious act and is one of the most abhorred by rugby players."
Part of the problem, as Blackett explained in a newspaper interview at the end of last year, is that 'eye-gouging' is the emotive expression used for all cases, regardless of the actual severity of the offence.
"The offence is actually contact with the eyes and it ranges from a bit of roughing up, where someone rubs their hand in somebody's face, and inadvertently makes contact with the eye. That's at the bottom end.
"At the other end, you have the player who maliciously sticks a finger in somebody's eye. That's eye-gouging, and obviously there's a whole lot of offences in between.
"Whenever there's contact with the eye, people call it eye-gouging; sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't."
Blackett believes there is an "increased incidence" of contact with people's faces and eyes.
Other former players disagree, saying that it has always gone on, and that incidents would be noted and revenge taken later at an appropriate juncture.
Allegations have often surfaced after British teams have played French sides in recent seasons, with Harlequins and Saracens both complaining of eye-gouging after matches against Stade Francais and Bayonne respectively.
Certainly there appears to be something of a culture of "la fourchette" (the fork) in French rugby, if John Daniell's book Rugby Mercenary is to be believed.
Daniell, a New Zealander who played for England Schoolboys and was an Oxford University Blue, played in France from 1997 to 2006 with three clubs - Racing Club de Paris, Perpignan and Montpellier.
Now a journalist, Daniell describes in graphic detail the "the particularly unpleasant feeling of having a dirty fingernail scraping along the back wall of your eye socket".
"In 15 years of rugby New Zealand, I was eye-gouged twice and I remember feeling physically sick that anyone would stoop so low," he wrote. "Within the first month of being in France, I lost count of the number of times it happened...The only thing that matters is getting that bloody finger out of there. You try to hold onto the finger so you can see who the owner is."
Daniell stands out because he also freely admits he twice gouged opponents himself. When he apologised afterwards to one victim, Jean-Michael Gonzalez, the hooker merely shrugged and muttered "c'est le jeu" (that's the game).
It was only in 1999 that the first northern hemisphere player - Colomiers prop Richard Nones - was banned for gouging, receiving a 12-month ban.
But there have been other notable incidents down the years, one of the most blatant in the 1999 World Cup, when a photographer captured a gruesome image of Wales hooker Garin Jenkins having a finger inserted into his left eye against Argentina.
Pumas prop Roberto Grau was cleared of the incident because officials claimed they could not properly identify him, but Grau did receive a nine-week ban at the 2003 World Cup after raking his hand over the face of Ireland hooker Keith Wood.
Another Pumas prop, Mauricio Reggiardo, was also banned after the same match for putting two fingers in the eye of Ireland prop Reggie Corrigan.
While the attention afforded to Burger's crude and calculated act has detracted from a stupendous Test match, it does at least highlight that for all its latent violence, rugby does police itself when the boundaries it draws for itself are crossed.
That said, one former international I spoke to was adamant that it takes a particularly malevolent kind of player to transgress one of rugby's biggest taboos, as Burger did.
"I did a lot of things in my time on a rugby field, but I never even thought about doing that," he said. "Burger deserves everything he gets".
The only question now is whether he got enough.
Comments
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burger has escaped lightly, pdv has lost a lot of respect and would do well to clarify his comments before the end of the tour. whilst i agree rugby isn't ballet, there are still rules involved, and in this cases rules where clearly broken. it appears as though in the action of poking fitzgerald in the eye, burger has somehow acquired the luck of the irish, ironic some might say...
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its not ironic, its merely coincidence. the act was terrible and to get away with it so lightly shows poor decisions by the officials, but we seen that throughout the game...
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I played rugby for a number of years and the foul play I detested the most was, in order:
- Biting
- Eye-gouging
- Punching or 'interference' in the groin area
I am glad Burger is banned, and wish he was banned for longer. I am a bit surprised as he always seemed a 'hard but fair' player in the past.
I am surprised Sheridan was not penalised, cited or banned for his punch to Bekker's groin (check out u tube)
PDV is a joke, and most SA supporters I know wish they could get rid of him as his comments are becoming more and more farcical. An embarrassment to a proud rugby nation.
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Tis obvious that refs in all sports are wimps and dont have the courage of their convictions
8 weeks thats a joke I'd given him 1 yr to think about it
The 'Lions' have been bullied on this tour so how about the refs assisting them instead of the 'Boks"
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Well, De Villiers has completely lost the respect of any self respecting rugby fan/player and Burger is definitely on his way.... The gouging (it was definitely a deliberate gouging) was actually hard to watch. What is the point??? When Burger had managed to pull the eye ball out what was he going to do with it?!?!
This Lions tour has managed to produce two great spectacles, unfortunately both going against the Lions. In many ways it was just plain unlucky.... If Monye or Philips had scored or if BOD had saved himself from that massive hit and been there to tackle Fourie instead of O'gara.... oh yeah and the other injuries.
All in all, it seems that when you are losing everything goes against you even if this Lions team is a truly classy, talented, passionate and brave team... Did we really expect Burger to get the lengthy ban that he deserved?! Remember Umanga/Mealuma?!?!?!
Lastly, Bryce really should have insisted on a red card. end of.
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I play rugby and was eye-gouged for the first time in my career last season. Having had the pleasure of someone elses finger in my eye socket, I cannot believe that Bryce Lawrence did not recommend the red card.
I have always respected Schalk Burger as a great player and competitor, but he has sunk down to the lowest of the low.
Eight weeks is a disgrace. Will someone have to lose their sight in an eye before the IRB decide to try and stamp this out.
ps. Pieter De Villiers - Resign, you are a joke to international management. South Africa would be even better without this idiot incharge.
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What PDV seems to be saying is that if we cannot accept that gouging another player's eyes is 'part & parcel' of the game, then we should try ballet instead!!
He says these are the players he will always select - what a joke.
I think the S.African rugby authorities need to distance themselves from such comments and get PDV as far away from coaching as is possible, before we start seeing this kind of tactic on school rugby pitches. Otherwise, S.Africa should be left to 'play with themselves' again, just like they did a couple of decades back.
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Gentlemen Vs thugs is more appropriate - getting convincingly stuffed in the scrum so botha runs in and takes out Adam Jones off the ball - theres a term for that: Coward.
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Sadly, as a Springbok supporter, I'll always remember Schalk as an eye gouger, and not for his rugby playing skills - just one ill advised action can ruin a reputation.I've also watched the footage carefully and cannot support the coaches' comments, which quite frankly are disgraceful!
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I agree that Bryce Lawrence did well to see the incident, but see it he did, so since when has Eye-gouging been "at least a yellow". He knew that it should have been straight red didn't have the guts to make the call so early in the game. My feeling is that if the same incident would have happened after 60 minutes then he would told the ref striaght red, no question. It did have a huge baring on the match but thats sport, calls go against you and you just have to accept it happens from time to time.
However, this is where the citing commision comes into it. Berger should be serving a 6 month ban AT THE VERY LEAST. If the RFU are serious about about stopping Gouging then the bans must be much longer. In Europe the bans seem more realsitic but if the RFU wants to be taken seriously then they should step in, re evaluate the findings and hand out a much tougher ban.
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PDV doesnt care simply because he was talking from a position of strength ie The Saffers won the match. If they had lost, he would have needed a scape goat. Burger was lucky and his act was cowardly. Wouldnt say it to his face mind..
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What this does is send a message to young rugby players that eye-gouging is not as serious as it truly is. I, like others have been gauged during a match... the worst, most unsporting thing someone can do on the pitch...
But what more can we expect from the South Africans... players who make 'card' gestures to the ref as if they were a footballers.
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A player who in a few years time might have been able to look back on his career safe in the knowledge that he was respected throughout the rugby world, will now know that through a large part of the rugby fraternity he will now be remembered first and foremost as a coward and a dirty cheat.
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I most certainly would apply the same to my team, but those incidents are as a result of gutless acts commited earlier on that had gone unpunished by the referee and if the officials cannot enforce the laws against the cowardly attempts to intimidate the Lions then, the players are enevitably going to take matters into their own hands - botha wasn't enjoying being bossed around in the forward battle, had a hissy fit and lashed out when he had the oppurtunity knowing that the referee lacked the courage to enforce the laws - he went in recklessly and dislocated a mans shoulder, thats Grevious Bodily Harm in anyones view, and certainly cannot be defended.
As for Burger, if the referee had again done his job then this wouldn't be an issue.
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Its annoying that he got away with that during the game but its too late to change it now. As for the ban, well 8 weeks is a joke compared to some of the cases outlined above.
And to jump to BODs defence I dont think he was all there when he made that tackle, pretty sure it was his head that broke Jenkins' cheekbone minutes earlier. His tackle was more of a man who was seeing birds! Kind of like a hug at running speed lol
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OK DaveParade, I've got it. All the foul play on both sides was the Boks fault. Thanks for clearing that up. Next time we'll suggest Danie Rossouw doesn't bother warming up or coming onto the field as any GBH he suffers will be deserved.
Bakkies still wasn't going in "off the ball" as you said earlier, and he got two weeks for going in recklessly. Sheridan should have got the same at least.
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Ever since rugby brought in the yellow card, I was concerned that it could be used as a 'cop out,' and this is yet another case in point. Violent conduct, especially in the professional era, is indefensible, enough said. The sooner referees, under instruction, stop letting professionals get away with this behaviour, and start brandishing more red cards, I am sure that these incidents will reduce, and rugby will be the better for it. By the way has anyone heard that lunatic of a South African coach speak about it? Unbelievable - he needs to be brought to book for such outragous comments.
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I fail to see why any of this has come as a surprise to people. It has been obvious from the start of the tour as it was in 1997 that the primary aim of the Boks has been to maim to get rid of the players who they consider to be the biggest threat to their aim of winning the Test series. Does anyone remember the Mpumalanga match in '97? Peter de Villiers is a disgrace to rugby and after his comments should not be allowed to coach. Rugby has always been a hard game but I have always thought it was a fair game but after this weekend performance by the Boks I think they should hang their heads in shame.......!!
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Several points arise relating to the ballet comment:
Guys do not wear tutu's: not even in South Africa.
Male ballet dancers are however very strong and athletic coupled with great technique and determination.
Would they gouge, of course not.
They are professionals who have been trained for many years to excel at their chosen path in life. I speak as the parent of a ballet dancer.
Uncontrolled animals may do what PDV deems to be appropriate but thank god that it is only a tiny minority of thugs in sport and they must be weeded out soonest.
Whilst coaches condone then pockets of morons will always exist.
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The only chance the Lions err, sorry the pussycats ever had of winning the match was against 14men - just the way you like it
Remember Twickers when poooorrr little Jonny W got bumped and went down like a footballer = RED card
Swings and roundabouts fellas - take the rough with the smooth
Personally I prefer to beat the English or the Lions by a narrow margin - makes their pain even more apparent in the whinging that follows - hahahaha - just like the RWC Final - yes, you're still saying it was a try DESPITE the evidence to the contrary!
So close YET so far
I feel your pain and I LOVE it!
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No Saffavescent, thats not quite what I'm saying - though surely you can be man enough to conceed that SA set the precedent which the referee then failled to control resulting in many off the ball incidents on both sides.
What would be your reaction if you were playing against opposition that were free to do as they please and trying to continuously injur you and your team mates - theres only so much that you can tolerate and if your being let down by the guidelines that are there to enforce fair play and erradicate the foul, then you need to act. Either that or just just be bullied by the yellow bellied team taking any oppurtunity for a cheap shot to cause physical harm.
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Taranfen....."but after this weekend performance by the Boks I think they should hang their heads in shame.......!!"
No, Burger only. They (the Boks) played well and scored 3 tries to 1 and once again, keep a balanced view. The Lions were'nt exactly angels either, which you seem to conveniently overlook.
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Anyone defending Burger, Parise, Quinlan or any other player who resorts to eye-gouging is condoning one professional sportsman attempting to permanently maim another player.
No room for it in any sport.
De Villiers is saying it's ok for his team to blind the opposition to gain an advantage and that is just plain evil. If the SA board back his comments they are a disgrace, if they don't his position is untenable.
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Credit to the South African rugby team. Your victory is even more impressive as you have a complete idiot for a coach.
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Put them in jail. Why on earth would you not?
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DP: It's unfortunate that there were injuries, to players I respect, but some of these were self-inflicted, eg: Jenkins on Habana's head during the double-tackle with BOD, BOD on DR. Burger is a disgrace which we all agree with.
Whatever was going on I would still not punch someone in the groin, and if I did I would expect to be punished. The difference is we condemn Burger and accept the Bakkies penalty, while the BIL supporters praise Sheridan and BOD, while complaining about the Boks.
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Good article on gouging Bryn.
Do you know if any player at first class or international level has received a red card for gouging?
It would be interesting to know why Schalk has committed such a deplorable act. He has always been a hard player but never gone for the eyes. And in his 50th cap game??
Bakkies Botha's citing is worrying because you could easily count hundreds of similar (and worse) ruck clearing efforts on this tour which have been accepted as hard but fair. Do you think it is because of the damage done? and indeed to a superb player?
Bryn, how do you feel about Sheridan's blow to Bekker's private parts? Is this to be excused when gouging and rucking gets punished? Once again, why did Sheridan do it? We don't really know him that way.
BOD's head high shoulder charge was possibly the most dangerous of all (to himself also), and the fact that it was from an offside position and not expected by Rossouw. This could have resulted in a brain haemorrhage! How can Bakkie's challenge go punished and not this one?
On a positive note, I know both teams and rugby cultures have tremendous respect for one another and that does lead to some fascinating rugby. I hope the new shape of Springbok rugby and those in positions of leadership, respect that ( I could have crawled under the bed when I heard PDV comment on Schalk). These are things we have to deal with on our side, so please understand our position as well. We are positive that a balance will be reached sooner rather than later.
Will the Springboks ever play a less physical, uncompromising game? Is it wise to boast beforehand on how one is going to 'smash' the Boks? Perhaps better to find a different way to beat them. Can and has been done.
Well played to the Lions thus far and Congrats to the Boks!
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It's very hard to keep a balanced view in light of such atrocious cowardice - some of those players were as yellow as the 'buttercup' embalzoned on their jerseys.
We were physicaly superior in the contact and the scrum to which SA had not answer.
Unfortunately, the IRB's leniancy has set a precedent in the wrong manner, as the indication to impressionable proffesionals is that if you attempt to blind someone you get a 2 month holliday, and 2 weeks for dislocating a mans shoulder, but thats ok, because he was 'clearing out a ruck'.
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He definitley should have been sent off! An eye gouge is a straight red card. Usually the ref or lines men don't see eye gouging and it is picked up after the game when the player complains. I will say in Burgers defense that when oyu play sport you have high arousal. This means you build up yuor adrenalin before the game and you do stupid things. It was out of order though and he got what he deserved!
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Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha! PdeV - "this is sport, this is what it is all about". Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha. I wonder if anyone at SARU has yet got around to impressing on numpty and his goons just how much money he and all their stupid, locker-room BS are now doomed to cost south african rugby over the next few years - players, clubs and supporters alike? You wouldn't have thought it would be possible to invent a scenario more damaging to the reputation of rugby played in RSA than the Kamp Staalraad farce but they have managed it. Laugh out loud? Weep more like.
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There is absolutely no doubt that Burger has got away very lightly for what he did. He knew exactly what he was doing and the failure of both the officials to adequately punish him and his coach to condemn his actions speak volumes. It doesn't matter whether it was in the first 30 seconds or the last 30 seconds - that is a red card by any form of sense and de Villiers' comments are nothing short of a disgrace either. We knew the South Africans would want revenge for 97, but the fact they were so clearly prepared to go to such depths to help secure it is a stain on an apparently great rugby nation.
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You know the plot is lost when the loss of this test is placed on one incident. Rugby, like a number of other sports has to be governed by the referee, citing players after the incident is simply a complete waste of time and only fuels he dedate further. The game I saw was completely different to that reported, I saw a game lost, by the ability to allow a comeback and the misguided run of play in the last minute.
As my children commonly state, 'Build a bridge, get over it'
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Joost1e - you are much mistaken.
I think most of the Lions supporters feel much pride rather than pain, in that 5 weeks we can put together a scratch side to push the world champions all the way.
You are probably too young to understand.
Congratulations to South Africa on a hard fought win
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Any deliberate act of violence should draw a year's ban. Then rugby would become the fabulous, skilful game it deserves to be.
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From his coments, it sounds like De Villiers has really lost the plot
His credibility as an international coach must surely be in question.
If SA carry on with dirty tactics, and these are condoned, then no other nation will want to play them .
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There is a trait in sport where referees dont administer the rules because it happened too early in the game, its as though there is a reluctance to "spoil" the game for the TV by sending guys off in the 1st minute. My advice to any thugs, do your dirty work be it eye gouging or a double footed tackle in football early on, the ref will get the flak for spoiling the game if he sends you off.
How many times have you heard commentators say that someone would either have got a card or been sent off but for the incident happening so early in a match.
Refs have got to remember that they are there for 2 purposes, to apply the laws and to protect the safety of the players and that applies whether it is the first 1 minute or the last.
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The Schalk Burger incident was regretable and marred what was a spectacular rugby game.
However, due proces was followed: The referee, appointed by the IRB,and vetted by his peers as competent enough to manage a game at this level judged it to be a yellow card offence. Later the citing commission, after hearing all the evidence imposed an 8 week ban. End of story.
Issues: (1)By now the IRB should have a table of offences and a tariff of sanctions in place. All the touch judge had to say was "eye gouging" and the ref would know what to do.(2) Why did the enquiry take so long? Why was the sentance "Light". Could it be that Burger was retailiating to a previous foul? e.g.
interferance in the groin area? Sadly this hysteria from UK fans is something those down under have become accustomed to. Always, the UK plays it by the rules and everyone else is the agressor. Judging by the number of times the Boks were reacting to incidents in the heat of battle I do not think the Lions were tickling them with feathers or pinching their bottoms.
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Only way you could gain parity in the physical contest was when it went uncontested.
I could see the whole SA pack shuddering in fear as they realised they were undone and their beloved scrumaging was smashed to pieces.
Maybe because botha and burger lacked a back cone that the scrum collapsed so, so easily.
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Burger's behaviour was bad but I can kind of of accept that this sort of thing will sometimes get done by hyped up players who lose their cool. His ban is lenient but at least the game has dealt with it.
However PDV's reaction was outrageous and I think SARU should take action against any couch who expresses these views. Coaches have a responsibility to acknowledge transgressions and be contrite in these circumstances. He's condoning this thuggery,that is totally unacceptable and brings the game into disrepute.
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1st TEST:
Punch on Habana, no citing or yellow card. Late tackle, no arms against Fourie du Preez, no yellow card, no citing. Well done to the Lions for getting aways with that and cheering inthe pub when you committed these fouls. No comments from the B&I supporters about these incidents even when invited to comment on them :)
2nd TEST
No arms charge on Rossouw resulting in injury. B&I Lions supporters laughing in the pub where i was watching the game and the fact that Rossouw could not stand. No complaints from the supporters there. Punch in by Sherdia on Bekker, again supporters thought this was funny. None of these incidetns resulted in a citing or yellow card.
As a South African, i am disgusted by Burger and he deserves what he gets.
Any as for the comments about the Lions dominating all the scrums and contact areas, please watch the game again.....nothing like Vickery popping out how many time? :)
Point is, don't just judge the Saffers, the Lions are no angels and should also have been punished for a number of offences. At finally, I recall all this we are going to take the Boks on physically and 99 crap, perhaps you should have come up with a different strategy. Before youg uys left for South Africa, this was all you guys could talk about on here and Sky News. Oh and 99 was a myth....perhaps you should listen to what WJM had to say about it.
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Burger should have received a longer ban and the officials concerned, banned from international duty for two years or more.
The feeble punishment meted by the IRB will be interpreted as sanctioning dangerous play by thugs of all nations that exploit the rules in this way.
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Whilst the majority of people would agree that eye gouging is wrong and doesn't belong in the sport, may I draw your attention to the affect this had, not only on the player, but the team. In the Lions game, if the referee had applied the appropriate law, then Burger would have been red carded - potentially putting the series open at 1-1.
By failing to deliver the appropriate punishment, referee Christophe Berdos cost the players, the staff and the supporters the opportunity to enjoy an unbelievable final game. The IRB need to rectify inconsistent refereeing now - or it will begin to affect the game - not only in player satisfaction & viewing numbers, but in cold, hard cash!
What about sending decisions that could result in a red card to the TMO? This would allow a better interpretation of the offence and allow the TMO to refer to the laws of the game for the appropriate punishment?!
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No 47.... what are you smoking pal? Must be some good stuff :) Shuddering in fear, and smashed to pieces......i only recall 5 Lions going to hospital, never mind no backbone, just broken bones.
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Joost1e - please do not try to excuse Burger's actions. We should all condemn them.
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While Schalk rightly got suspended for a few seconds of absolute madness, calling the Boks thugs while turning a blind eye to many of the Lions incidences really is ridiculous.
In a "highly" competitive series like this, generally played in an amazing spirit by all 5 nations (and supporters), taking cheap shots at the whole team sort of nullifies the whole experience for me.
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Considering that Seru Rabeni got 14 weeks for 'assumed intent to gouge', with no evidence of him actually doing anything, (just an assumption that he had intended to) I think Burger has got off very lightly indeed.
But then having said that, at least he was cited unlike the atrocity committed by two Kiwis on Brian O'Driscoll on the last tour.
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Joost1e, please refrain from your baiting comments. You are perpetuating the image we are gaining (thanks to WUMs like you) that we are ungracious winners.
To the objective rugby fans reading this...I believe you will go a long way to find a Bok fan who condones what Burger did. 8 weeks is not enough.
As for PdV, he's renowned for only opening his mouth to change feet. His inability to at least acknowledge that what Burger did was shameful is inexcusable.
He has been called up to explain his comments to SARU, so let's hope he can go some ways to regaining a semblance of credibilty for himself and SA rugby.
P44cka & wel5hexile...well said, and credit to your team who have shown great determination and courage, and have made the last two tests of the best I've seen (apart from the Burger incident).
Here's looking forward to what will hopefully be another great test on Saturday
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Burger deserved far more than he recieved.
2nd test we destroyed SA in the scrum, and that is not an exageration, which is why the offence on Adam Jones leads me to believe that it was pre-meditated as you simply had no answer to it, and no body on the bench to make a difference.
Turnover conceeded - B&I Lions 11
SA - 16.
Why?
Simply because we had the physical superiority on the day, and you poor chaps could do nothing about it but employ dirty gutless tactics.
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I understand spear tackling was properly outlawed after a load of players damaged their necks and backs.
Anyone know of stats on eye damage from gouging? The assumption is that it is very very dangerous play, so I'd be intrested to know just how dangerous it is.
Well done to the springboks, you were better than us, so you won (no wingeing from this pom ;-)) - but I hope you get a new coach that can represent your great nation as you deserve.
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When the "officials" and the "rulers" show some backbone and actually ban the scumbags who commit these cowardly acts for a year for Gouging then it may stop. Until then it's just a talking point and allows a way of causing bodily harm by the more inadequate of these pathetic sportsmen.
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Bring back rucking !
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Smoking? It must be you that is halucinating or you clearly weren't watching the same game on Saturday - rest assured that there is no exaggeration in that statement.
You seem to be as deluded as PDV and even worse, condoning your countrymens actions by gloating about the fact that one player had to go to hospital after he was hit late and required surgery.
Is this acceptable?
If this is your view, I'm afraid that puts you squarely in the same category as the cowardly duo of bota and burger.
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Burger will look back on his gouging and feel ashamed. You can hear the conversation, " Daddy, did you play against the Lions back in 09 ?" " Yes kids, but...."
He can start on the road to put it right with an apology and an honest appraisal of his action, but I don't think he has the character to do it.
The coach de Villiers needs to be bought to book by the IRB. His comments totally outside the game that we all love.
8 weeks, should be 8 months.
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A red card should have been the least Coward Burger received. Probably at least a 6 month ban. De Villiers said he didn't mean it. Really, so he just accidentally had his fingers in somebody's eyes. Of course he did.........
..he should face action as well, for breathtaking stupidity.
How 'small-time' are South Africa?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Can I point out that, this same weekend, an Italian player was also banned 8 weeks for eye gouging against an All Black player. Without in any way condoning eye gouging, I just wonder why it is that this case barely registers as a point of interest amongst people here, whilst the Lions case has become such a frenzied outpouring of disgust?
Personally I think, once a ban has been issued, all these responses are nothing more than the usual whinging that has almost become synonymous with Lions tours these days.
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Shalk 'ooh I'll scratch yer eyes out' Burger is fine example of the brave and tough SA Rugby players!!??
What a shame that his reckless and clownishly stupid action has overshadowed a 'colossal' and in most respects wonderful game of Rugby football. As for De Vilers, he has shown a complete lack of moral courage, judgement and integrity by effectively condoning Burger-Van's schoolboy behaviour. Where do you draw the line? Why not send out the teams armed with pick axe handles would seem to be his argument, ie anything goes in so far as his warped view of the game of Rugby is concerned. Shameful.
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64.... I have made it clear that I don't condone violence and will be glad to see Burger never playing for South Africa again. And if you think I am alone in feeling this way, rest assured, so are most South African rugby supporters. We DON'T support thuggery, contrary to popular belief. My comments was out of frustration that this argument is so one sided and the Lions supporters are blind to their own teams indiscretions.
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Saffavescent, I'm sure Bekker would be very touched at your concern for his groin. Unfortunately I was watching the ball rather than staring at players groins so I missed the incident. No chance of significant damage though, the way the boks played the match demonstrated that the entire team has no balls.
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I think most South African rugby fans will condemn both Burger & Sheridan's un-sportsmanship actions. The way the media carries on about this does make it seem as if the Lions are a bunch of moaning sissies - it's as shameful to be such bad losers as the unlawful actions themselves. Get over the 1 minute of unfortunate incidents - accept your loss with a bit more dignity.
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Wales are the 7's world Champions
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Sorry that should be the 7's World Cup Winners.
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1) You do coke, harming nobody but yourself, and you get banned for 2 years. You must then self flagelate in interviews saying what a terrible perosn you are.
2) Gouge an eye and get 8 weeks. No comment
Hmmmmm......anyone else see a problem here?!
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Well the debate rages on! And why is that? Some guys determined to defend the indefensible, thats why. PDV has rather let the cat out of the bag huh....he condones the "whatever it takes" attitude, including the odd eye gouge, or dislocated shoulder. He has lost all credibility!
By the way, I would like to thank some of the sensible people from SA who are obviously real rugby fans and have expressed regret about what has happened. There are a few players, one coach, a few fans and bloggers who should take a good look at themselves in the mirror...
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Do you remember when that SA prop Johan Le Roux bit Sean Fitzpartick's ear in 1994?
There was outrage and he was given a 18 month ban!
Kevin Yates got 6 months for biting on Simon Fenn's ear in 1998.
Where's the comparable sentence for gouging?
Richard Loe did get 6 months for eye gouging Greg Cooper back in 1992, in a Waikato v Otago game.
Seems like we are going backwards!
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@Joost1e
I agree. if the Welsh and Irish think last week was bad then they better buckle up!
Granted, Burger's actions "looked" dangerous and deliberate (and probably where, but things are sometimes not what they seem). Maybe lets wait for his take on things before we crucify him.
It's very very hard to take this article seriously (the article, not eye-gouging and other offences mentioned) because, again, it seems like another instance of the British media trying to deflect attention for their team's inadequacies. And to say Schalk's not receiving a red card cost them the game (Phillips, among others): Should we take that to mean that the Lions believe they had no chance of beating a full Bok team? Yes we should.
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Martin Johnson was one of the dirtiest players that ever lived YET a hero to the people on this blog who continue to whinge
The offence was committed - Burger has been punished - moveon will ya!
Stop the bleating
You got smashed two weeks in a row
Worst still, you blew the 2nd Test after gaining a commanding lead
The Lions absolutely blew it
No one to blame but themselves
Get over Burger - concentrate on how you can IMPROVE
Burger didn;t cost you the Test - you lost it
And even when a draw looked likely O'Gara decided to take a man out in the air - game over
Soundly soundly BEATEN - AGAIN!
As you will be this Saturday - AGAIN!
Not good enough
End of!
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71.....as i said, one sided and blind.
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Er Dave - do your research buddy
Sth Africa clinched it at Twickers a couple of weeks ago
WORLD 7's CHAMPIONS!
That's why we so enjoy seeing English claret on the pitch
Ignorant!
Looking forward to the Ashes - yet more misery unless of course your Sth African batsman KP can win it for you - AGAIN!
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My my my, what a lovely article. Unfortunately a lot of people will recognise it for the propoganda it is. You can argue that it was not done on purpse, the same cannot be said for the cheap groin shot, or the tackle without arms by the lions players. Still, at the end of the day SARFU and the Lions board are loving this, more free publicity to get more people to watch the third test.
In another couple of weeks no-one will even remember this Lions tour and the majority of whingers on this site will be complaining about the football or thinking up some other excuse after the Aussies win the ashes. But at least now they have stopped fighting amongst themselves for a while (English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish) so you owe us that much.
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Yes, Sheridan should have been cited. Given the 8 week ban for Burger, and the fact that no harm was done I would ban him a proportional ban: 33 minutes.
Also, I hear that PDV offered to represent Sheridan at the hearing if he was cited with an "it's not ballet" defense.
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Usual sour grapes from the Brits when it comes to sport in general! Poor from Burger but people forget O'Driscoll's tackle which was hardly exemplary!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
77
Richard Loe got 9 months for gouging Cooper
Worst still - he broke Paul Carozza's jaw in a Test vs Australia in plain view of everyone while Carozza lay on his back on the ground having just scored a try
Sentance - absolutely NOTHING!
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Joost1e. You're not by any chance related to de Villiers are you? I detect much confusion within you, young one.
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I'm not blind in my assesment or one sided, but I won't stand back and be objective if I feel that there are certain members who are unfortunately your compatriots, being inglorious and ungracious in victory - I am not being a sore looser in anyway I'm big enough to take the defeat.
My gripe was with the officiating being cowardly, but I did get drawn into slanging match because I feel that the retrospective punishment was insufficent, and that mocking the injury of players in a sport this physical when there is no other intent but to cause injury is unacceptable, and a gutless act itself.
I certainly don't condone it - all I have offered is the reasoning behind why some of the B&I Lions conducted themselves in that manner and that again was as a result of poor officiating once the tone had been set, and if the referee had quashed it then none of these incidendts would have occured.
Burger would have been off, the precedent would have been set, and there would be far less off the ball incidents which marred a great game of rugby.
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no 85, i am disappointed that you have never met a nice South African. Have personally not been too fond of the poms myself. we are direct yes and say it as it is. not as devious and underhand as you lot.
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That ban is a disgrace. How can someone like Alan Quinlan get 12 weeks and Burger only get 8? He should not only have been sent off, he should also have got banned for at least 6 months.
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@ Ruck_Maker
If I've never seen an attention seeking post.....From the bitterness in your post I'd guess you're 40, have always been the smallest kid in class, played 5th team rugby (position: water boy), and never got the love you thought you deserved. Am I close???? Steroids...LOL, have you never heard of drug tests? I give you a 9.5 on my patented DIV-ometer.
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No 88, ......Peace. Let's hope Saturday's game is a victory for rugby and its supporters. I have attended many internationals involving South Africa in the UK and even when we have lost, i always congratulate the opposition supporters and join in for a drink. Hopefully this weekend will be no different. And yes, as a South African supporter, we are not helped by this idiot coach PDV we have but if we say too much it will be considered as racist so we have to put up with him. I can honestly say though that since he took over from Jake White the bok disipline has been sliding. I have even e-mailed the South African Rugby Union to this effect yesterday and needless to say, won't get a response. Jake would never have aloud these things to happen.
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I have met plenty of decent SA and work with one who is a great bloke and someone who I respect........
One thing that I don't do 89, is tar everyone with the same brush.
I would appreciate the same courtesy - the opinion of one does not constitute the whole, so please direct them at the person who has rattled you, not the collective.
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A deliberate attempt to permanently maim an opponent on a sports field should draw the same punishment as someone pushing a glass in someone's face in a bar... actually as there is no alcohol involved in the former, the punishment should be worse.
As for de Villiers... 1st he should be made to look at how Iain Robertson took Graham Henry to task over spear tackles... then he should be sacked...
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some sort of an apology.....little pathetic i fear
http://www.sport24.co.za/Content/Rugby/LionsinSA/954/90086ce6c1b34903b7a62d8ad26c5236/29-06-2009%2009-06/Div,_SARU_apologise_
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Yeah, no worries ctmanbok, wrote my last comment with a bit of haste and just trying to keep the topic on rugby and this particular incident so appologies if it seemed a bit hasty.
I have heared that the politics in SA rugby are very delicate to say the least from my friend JJ - but how PDV can make those statements re the mechanic / car and expect to get away with it is ridiculous.
Hopefully he'll read this and get the hint - PDV engage brain before opening mouth.
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1. Most important Burger was crazy - dont know what he was thinking and got what he deserved.
2. Botha's citing was pathetic he was CLEARING Jones out of the ruck as he did to Kay in the world cup (check out the 2 clips and tell me what the differnce is - NO DIFFERENCE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ0_L9EjdCk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FV7GDD--w
3. BOD the saint having a swipe at Du Plessis and sending Roussow off (people in glass houses shoudnt throw stones). What Du Plessis should have done is give him a proper smack for starting it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcGyWqQNPBs
4. The Lions team and 80% of the supporters and saying that SA are thugs - hahahaha look at your own team boys they no angels I can promise you.
5. SA WON THE SERIES NOW DRY YOUR EYES AND MOVE ON!!!!!
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CTmanbok, thanks for your comments. This is what rugby should be about, hard fair competition, strictly refereed to prevent gratuitous violence. And some real cameraderie between opposing fans, united in the love of the game. Nothing to do with ballet or tutus, or slagging guys off.
Not sure whether all this is at all possible after all thats happened, there is badfeeling all round, but with two offenders not playing next sat, and maybe just maybe a ref who can actually control a game....who knows?
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No 93.... Thank you for the response. Your comment came over as if you have never any any nice South African and that rattled me. That was the reason for my comment. So if i misunderstood your comment, then sincere apologies. I don;t honestly feel that way about the Poms....considering that half my family are Poms, including my son!
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http://www.planetrugby.com/lions-09/story/0,25883,16024_5406164,00.html
This makes for quite an interesting read........ PDV Gold!
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99 I fully understand mate, nothing wrong with showing a bit of national pride! Can't wait for Saturday allready! I do wish that the Lions tour was on for a bit longer - you wait 4 years ans then it's over in the blink of an eye...
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He is such an idiot :) ha ha
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#88 DaveParade: "My gripe was with the officiating being cowardly, but I did get drawn into slanging match because I feel that the retrospective punishment was insufficent,"
No. Your FIRST comment was "Gentlemen Vs thugs is more appropriate - getting convincingly stuffed in the scrum so botha runs in and takes out Adam Jones off the ball - theres a term for that: Coward."
I'm glad you've made peace with CTman, but please sort out your selective memory.
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Has anyone actually heard what Burger has had to say in his defence? The guy's played 50 tests and, as far as I'm aware, doesn't have a reputation for cheap shots and thuggery. As with Alan Quinlan I'd like to know what actually prompts a player, with a hard won reputation for hard but fair play, to commit such an act? What was he trying to achieve?
As for Botha this "clearing out the ruck" has always in my mind been a dangerous area. It gives licence to a bloke upwards of 20st to come flying in on his terms, ie. braced for contact, straight into a guy normally static, prostrate or bent at an ackward angle. This just invites injury. And yet some joker bans the collapse of a snails paced rolling maul cos it's 'dangerous' even though all the players involved are braced for it to come tumbling down at any moment.
Sheridan's tap in the gonads was petulent not 'dangerous'. If there had been any real force involved the guy would still be rolling around the turf now.
BOD took out the guy chest on aiming to wrap his arms around him so not sure how this was deemed dangerous, he just mistimed it and heads clashed.
On the general rough house tatics, SA have a past poor reputation for 'cheap shots', Butch James is the star in that field, but teams need to just respond with interest.
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Just to add an extra edge to the Neil Best gouge incident, he was actually deemed to have accidentally gouged James Haskell, as he grabbed his head in a ruck and and his finger went into his eye. I do not condone his actions but for him to get 18 weeks and Burger to get 8 weeks is just madness.
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No Saffa, it's not selective - Jostl1e's 1st removed post initialy got my blood boiling, as he was making light of what had happened by mocking the fact that there were players that had been hospitalised, and so I spoke my mind on the matter, but my intention was to point out that the poor officiating was what set the tone for the remainder of the game prior to being dragged into the finger pointing slanging match.
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how is this for arrogance :) funny, pot, kettle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BdsTh2oP6o
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106: Ok, I agree that Joost's comments were provocative. Peace from me too.
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Thorspants - "He (PdeV) has been called up to explain his comments to SARU"
Hmm. Just posted on the SARU site ....
We would like to apologise to the rugby community for the erroneous impression that acts of foul play are in any way condoned by South African rugby, said Mr Hoskins (Oregan Hoskins, SARU President).
and
"Mr de Villiers added that as Springbok coach he stood against play that was not in the spirit of the game. Eye-gouging is something that we as a team will never be part of, he said. The same applies to biting, head-butting, spear tackling or any other foul play that doesnt belong in the game".
Well, I guess that clarifies things properly and means that the paying-punters', sponsors' and foreigners' view of RSA rugby from now on will be merely that its run by hypocrites and apologists, who can be depended upon fully to position Springbok rugby as the object of derision rather than say, prosecution. Good job.
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Peace from me to :0)
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Disgraceful; replay the match.
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111.....yes, that would be useful. what is the point!
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Just want to add my voice here as a South African who proudly wore the green & gold at Loftus on the weekend - Schalk Burger should be ashamed of what he did, he should feel lucky to have escaped with only an 8 week ban, and Pieter 'div' de Villiers is a ridiculous human being who should just be ignored in the hope that eventually his racist and fanciful rantings at press conferences will fade away into the ether and all we will have to remember him by is a memorable coaching record.
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An opponent inadvertently "gouged" me in handing me off in a game. His digit hit the back of my eye socket and we were both genuinely not happy, knowing where his finger had been. I firmly believed that he had punctured my eye ball (refusing anybody access to it and holding my free hand on it until a doctor prised it away two hours later), he firmly believed he had popped my eye out (driving me, in kit, to the eye and ear hospital, and remaining there while I was thoroughly checked). He visited me every day thereafter, until I appeared out on the playing field again. To this day my eye ball has the scar of his badly manicured nail visible umder the iris and to this day he buys me a drink whenever I appear in the bar. For anybody to do this in (even the name of sport as PVD says) is a mandatory life sentence, no question.
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The International Rugby board have the power to solve this in a instance. The first occurance of a deliberate eye gouge should be given a 5 year ban from ALL rubgy.That would stop it in its tracks. However, I can't see them doing this as they appear to be without any backbone
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What we in the nothern hempisphere have to realise is the brutal truth that when a Lions party crosses the equator the very last thing one should expect is justice - as we saw with the spear tackle on BOD in NZ and now the eye gouging in SA.
The worst 'offenders' are not the likes of Burger (lowest of lows that he has become) but the complete prats that run Rugby Union, who rather than defend the honour of the sport, drag it through the gutter. It really will take the blinding of someone before these idiots wake up to their responsibilities and irradicate this foul practice with suitable retribution. Burger should have been banned for life - simply as that.
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Springboks coach De Villiers should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute after his outrageous comments. At the same time, the IRB should stop banning people for a number of weeks, and make it a certain number of games instead.
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Daveparade - you need to get a life. The rugby was tough (more than you probably could withstand), but mostly fair (some egregious things happened like they do in all rugby tests). I am sure if there was no eye gouging (which was terrible and Burger needs to be harshly dealt with) there would be less vitriolic comments. Let's focus on a tough ,great game than petty nonsense.
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What are the press labelling him in SA??? Is it P.Divvy?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FV7GDD--w
What is the difference between how Botha clears out, and how the Lions' hooker the tries to clear out Botha? I don't really see anything spectacularly different from how most Test-level forwards clear out rucks...
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I'm a Bok fan and am ashamed at Burgers actions, I used to like the player but this is a step too far, and I don't really care if he plays again for the Boks. Also, PDV is an idiot who is quickly loosing support in SA. All the Bok fans I've spoken to share these sentiments, we do not want to be tarred with the "dirty team" brush of the past. People haven't taken notice at how much we've actually cleaned up our game, and Burgers actions are taking us a step backwards.
But I do take some pretty extreme offence to how our entire team is being smeared by the actions on one. All the Lions supporters seem to have an opinion that we won because we're cheats and thugs. Let me ask you a question - apart from Burger, in the 2 tests so far, what have we done wrong? I mean specific, citing worthy incidents. You will no doubt mention Botha's ban - this is the most ridiculous thing I've seen, he did nothing wrong, that was as typical a clearing out as you get. This is standard stuff in the super 14 and tri-nations, the only reason he got cited was because his name is Bakkies Botha. That challenge was just hard and fair.
The Lions had their fair share of niggles too, but most Lions fans seem to forget that. There is this mob mentality that they lost because they weren't playing 14 men (very ambitious) and that they were unlucky and cheated - this is loser mentality.
Also for a little bit of missed irony, people here are making moral judgements on Saffers and Burger regarding eye-gouging, but the blog post includes Brits and Irish players who have been banned for the same offense. So surely if we're evil thugs based on the actions of a single player, so are you?
As for the length of Burgers ban - yes it should have been much longer, but that decision has nothing to do with South African Rugby!
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No 120.... first time i have seent he Bakkies incident and think is can feel a little unlucky to be banned for that. Yes the injury was unfortunate but the hit was still within the laws of the game.....
Please, if anyone really knows the laws here, no emotional response, can you please say if you believe it was not in the laws, why?
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I guess the best way to resolve it would be to ask the citing official as he is the person who had put him forward for dangerous play.
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Newlaager, you're wrong. Due process was not followed, because the appropriate punishment was not handed down on the field at the time. Are you proud to win a series through resorting to that kind of behaviour? I know I wouldn't be.
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A little note to all those not engrossed in the myopic world of rugby: It comes across as a revolting sport. One where braun prospers, skill and wit is minimal, casual violence prevalent: Ear biting, eye gouging, spine snapping, punching thuggery. That this absolute inhumanity by Berger is punished by such as measly sentence just about shows the sport's base level of values. Eveywhere I have come across rugby - school, university, friends in later life - and its the same animal behaviour one experiences. We have one dead relative in our wider family from a spear tackle. There are memories of viscious student union fights started by the rugger "lads", alongside the other japes, like goading each other to drink to the point of critical illness and leaving vomit around the town... Gentleman's sport. What deluded clap-trap!
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The only reason I can see for it being deemed cite-worthy, is that it resulted in a serious injury...at the time, the referee was standing about 1 meter away from the incident, and didn't seem to think there was much to it
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Saffajon
1. You have it spot on mate.
2. Bakkies Bothas clearance was just how it should be done but unfortunate for Jones that he was taken off!
3. Ive posted so many video clips of the Lions foul play but NO COMMENTS!
4. People need to take the mud out their eyes and look at them/Lions first before pointing fingers!
5. But most of all I still am battleing to find people who say WELL DONE SA YOU DESERVED TO WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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No. 122
'All players forming, joining or taking part in a ruck must have their heads and shoulders no
lower than their hips'
Fact: There is no way his head/shoulders are above his hips.
Of course you could argue that this happens in every ruck. That's probably true but it resulted in a serious injury and deserved a citing.
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Its shocking. The South Africans had a game plan to take our players out and ruffle our feathers by any means necessary. 8 weeks is a joke. As are the actions of DeVilliers, he too should be penalisied. The Lions have lost a series because they chose to play fair. Surley the IRB can not sit back and ignore this.
Dave
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facemandave
Apart from burgers (disgraceful) actions, can you name one other incident to back-up your statement, across both tests?
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So if something happens at every ruck, but on one occasion resulted in injury, it deserves punishment? I can't see how that would work, otherwise you'd end up with soccer-like situations of people feigning injuries to get others sent off or banned. Of course that's different if someone is deliberately causing injury, stamping on knees or eye gouging for example, but I didn't think Botha had done much wrong (or in any case anything worse than anyone else in international tests) and Jones was just unlucky to have been injured
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
No 128.....thank you for the feedback..... not because I am a Saffer, I still feel he was a little unlucky to be cited on that evidence and considering the ref was standing there.
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FACEMANDAVE
Please dry your eyes seriously you think the Lions have been saints on this tour???
If you hounestly think the Boks had more off the ball stuff than the Lions go onto utube and view a few clips mate!!!!! BOD, REES, SHERI and the list goes on high tackles, late hits, punches and a lot more so please do me a favour (and im not saying SA did nothing but the Lions were just as bad barring an eye gouge!!!!!)
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No. 131.
This wasn't just a head down clear out. Botha had a long run up, took a hop skip and a jump, looked at Jones and targer his upper arm which was extended. Given Botha's well documented history of foul play, it would not surprise me at all if he targeted Jones to cause injury. If it had been Juan Smith, I might be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Some might say Botha was unlucky, but he caused a serious injury, and technically the way he entered the ruck was illegal. In any event, he only got 2 weeks.......Jones might have a career ender....so he can cout himself lucky.
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There's alot being made of a few incidents involving both sides - none of which really warrant as much commentary as they're getting with the exception of Burger's actions.
It's ashame Lions fans will get tarnished with the 'sore losers' brush because the Lions have played a big part in a tremendously exciting test series and I believe the South Africans can counts themselves fairly lucky to have won the series after two tests.
That said, people are judged by how graciously they take defeat and victory and on the evidence of the above comments the majority of fans should change their attitude.
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Two reasons why I'm angry with Schalk!
1. It was stupid
2. Now every site I read I have to listen to all the moaning.
However, it will emerge why Schalk did this. There is a reason. Perhaps if someone grabbed my testimonials I would also gouge him.
On a lighter note: I wonder which official was 'volunteered' to tell Bakkies about his citing?
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SO the Lios destroy the Bok scrum, the Beast pops out.... good Lions scrummaging or Jones boring into the Beast :)
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The referee was present at the scrum, and all French referees are particularly vigilent in this area. Do you think that Jones was boring into Mitwaria?
I must confess that the bulk of the issue in the first test was due to the lack of powere behind Vickery - the selectors got that wrong and all credit to the SA forwards they exploited the weekness.
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1.xpat
well then if thats the case rees and sheridan should have been sent off!
It happened under the refs eyes and the exact thing happened in the worldcup under the refs eyes and nothing was done!
Im afraid you wrong on this one mate.....
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No 140...i agree with you. Reason i ask is because the Lios supporters were crying foul in these blogs that there is no way he could do that to Vicker and must have been scrummaging ilegally.
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Look we all agree that Schalk messed up here and desrves to get punnished, 8 weeks enough? Well i dont think so, and as a SA fan i guess that means it should be alot more.
Regarding PDV.... he is a complete idiot, seriously what is he going on about, the man made racist coments last week and nobody says anything.
As world cup winners, as 7`s champs, and as super 14 champs we should be at our proudest but i feel embarresed by our pathetic political BS that is still ruining our game. And even more by being labeled "dirty"
Dont want to divert attention either but why isnt anyone saying anything about bakkies getting smaked in the nuts?
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DaveParade
On a lighter note again. After the first test which I did not watch live, I read all these headlines about the beast and boring. I found it amusing as other reports suggested he had an exciting game!
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Getting back to the original point - Burger should have been red carded during the game. PdV is a disgrace, his comments were shockingly misinformed at best. And the sentence given out to Burger was inexplicably lenient. I am not content.
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143. I asked the question.... no one responded re the nut cracker..... and it was Bekker, not Bakkies.
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146. Sheridan shold have been cited and banned for 1 day.
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Oh, an addendum to my last comment - congratulations to SA on winning the series!
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Lads we can go on and on about this, at the end of day they won whether it was fair or not. We were unlucky with injuries on the whole and I do believe we would of won the match bah the injury list.
Some Saffer wums no names mentioned believe players like Schalk can do no wrong, lets have more people like Thorspants on both sides who at least can be reasonable. Laws need to be more harsh, O'Driscoll, Sheridan, Botha, Schalk could of all been disciplined on the pitch, I can see why refs and linesman miss unlawful tactics sometimes..but in that case Rugby's ruling bodies need to find better ways in spotting it straight away and giving a correct decision and not a interpretation .
Fact is the laws and interpretations should be looked at as the ref seems to decide who wins the game nowadays and not the players!!
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Oh how fickle we are!
Gouges and nutcrackers and high tackles and dislocated shoulders and boring and refs and disgraced and sanctimonious and pot/kettle and rods in the eye and mad coaches and holier than thou and moan moan moan!!!
Wasn't Habana's try delicious?
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Habana's try was well worked, also thought Rob Kearney was fantastic, I'm a Lee Byrne fan but I tell you what Kearney if he continues his form is right their with him. I think the injuries were a big factor in the tests as I would of loved to see the likes of Euan Murray, Lee Halfpenny, Tom Shanklin, O'Leary and others to have played. would of liked to have seen a on form Shane Williams but it was not to be.
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We seem to be missing the point with this, and getting distracted by some could have, should have mud slinging. It would seem that pretty much everyone here agrees on the two main points.
1) Eye gouging = red card.
2) 8 weeks is not enough.
With regards to the other incidents, Botha may have been a bit unlucky, but he was pinged for not binding into a ruck, which resulted in a dislocated shoulder. I didnt think it was a particularly bad hit at the time, but that is one of those 50/50 calls afterwards. Sheridan should consider himself lucky and probably should have been cited. BOD should not have been on the pitch after the previous double tackle with Jenkins, he has been consistently making that rush hit throughout the tour but it obviously becomes harder when you are seeing three men to hit!
What we have to admit though is that South Africa did what all southern hemisphere teams do so well and when the lions gave them a chance they were clinical. We didnt finish them off in either test and therefore they deserved to beat us overall. Well done South Africa. The sad thing is that the most eciting two tests i have seen in a long time have been overshadowed by the eye gouging and question marks over the referees.
Ps. Where did you find that idiot coach and have you still got the receipt? Seriously, he has done at least as much damage as Burger with his response and it will be interesting to see the SARFUs response. I suspect that anything other than a successful tri nations will see him gone.
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Signing out.....Hope you guys enjoy the game on Saturday, may the best team win be it the Lions or the Boks (Go Bokker....little biased i know), but honestly guys i hope aftyer Saturdays game we have more positive things to talk about....
Oh, and by the way, PDV is also referred to as HELIUM....i'm sure you know why :) he is such a prat...i am sure history will not be kind to him.
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No 150.... Fourie's try was better :)
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It seems to me that in order to eradicate violent play the culprit's team must suffer a penalty during the match, say 7 points for red and 3 for yellow. Dealing with the issue later for the individual's personal penalty is obvious but if the team don't suffer at the time, it is a recipe for deliberate behaviour by a losing side or a winning one hanging on. What happens at internationals will be copied by schoolboys..surely the ultimate failure of the authorities.
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Re Burger's shameful act, the real issue concerns the leniency of the decision taken by the referee to show a yellow rather than a red card and the leniency of the disciplinary panel's decision to ban him for only 8 weeks. Until the IRB take a stronger stance on applying the rules in relation to such acts of thuggery, certain players will continue to engage in acts of foul play and not suffer severe repercussions.
As for PDV,it looks as though he has been forced into eating some humble pie by the SA Rugby President! His credibility has been shot to pieces and will be lucky to survive in his post beyond the end of the season.
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ctmanbok seriously though it's in the past now and history will say it's a Fourie try but hand on heart how sure were you that it was?;]
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There certainly needs to be more stringent guidlines on this matter and set time periods as opposed to deemeing what a relevant time frame is for punishment.
Regardless, the games officials are the ones that need to be more aware and more assured in the decision making within the laws, their interpretation of laws is far to varied, it's no wonder the players are never sure where they are regarding whats acceptable - advantage is another ambiguous area. My own opinion of it is that if you have gained ground, you have gained an advantage, where some refs play a certain period of time of posession etc.
ANyway, point being is that some things have to be fixed sentence (for a better way to describe it) and done with conviction safe in the knowledge that the decision is made as per the rules - this isn't wendyball, you don't have the players crowding around and verbaly abusing the referee so there is no real intimidation for the referee to be influenced into making the wrong decision.
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OK, now I'm seeing a lot of posts from South Africans trying to justify some of their thuggery. (I'm not saying all the SA team were thugs, nor that all Saffers accept it.)
Let's begin with the suggestion one genius (46. newlaager) made, that Burger was merely retaliating for having his groin interfered with. Mate, you need to actually watch the incident before you comment on it. Burger is lying outside the ruck, with his body away from Fitzgerald, reaching back over his head to gouge at Fitzgeralds face. No-one is anywhere near his groin.
Moving on to the groin. (No giggling you at the back!) Andrew Sheridan and Bekker. Both 15 Saffavescent and 50 ctmanbok refer to this incident.
You can watch it on Youtube, in slow-motion if you like. It's not a punch. Bekker doesn't 'have his hands in a maul'. Bekker is off his feet, grabbing at the head of Shaw or Heaslip, and Sheridan is driving in under him. Bekker loses his cool and yes, Sheridan does touch him inappropriately. Maybe he went to boarding school?
OK, it's not very nice, but it wasn't a violent assault, and Bekker was misbehaving.
BOD on Rossouw. BOD is onside when du Preez picks up the ball. Again, watch it on Youtube, pause when du Preez picks, BOD is onside. Now, seeing what happened is difficult, you have to freeze at just the right moment, and my initial impression was a swinging arm. But in fact it's a clash of heads. It's very clearly BOD's head on Rossouw's head. BOD's head was harder, but he still had to go off. Not a shoulder-charge, if he had led with the shoulder he would have been fine himself, but as he had his arms open to wrap up and stop the off-load he ran right into Rossouw as he turned.
Croft on du Preez, first Test. No arms in the tackle, clear penalty.
Punch on Habana, did it connect? Rees got clobbered into the back, he reacted. Thought it was foolish, and a penalty, but no more. Can't find a video.
All in all, pretty meek stuff. Personally, I thought the Lions should have been a lot tougher. They certainly weren't dishing out as much as they were taking.
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I saw the Lions vs South Africa match live on the Internet from the USA. Being a US citizen, I had no bias for either side. I just appreciated an intense, hard-fought rugby match. The Lions were clearly the better side in the first half. Unfortunately injuries messed up their game plan and the Boks came on really strong in the 2nd half. Physicality is a huge part of the Bok's game, as shown by the Burger and Botha incidents. In my opinion, Christophe Berdos, the French referee needed to be much stricter on the illegal physical stuff. Both sides were doing it to a certain extent, but the Boks seemed to be instigating it most of the time.
I'm amazed that Berdos wouldn't have even given Burger a yellow card unless Bryce Lawrence had recommended it. He was on the verge of walking away when Lawrence pulled him back. Berdos then realized he hadnt asked him his recommendations. So he then said to Lawrence, "so what are your recommendationsa yellow card. Lawrence replied "I think its at least a yellow card". What Lawrence should have said forcefully was "if I was the referee, it would be a red card" as he was right there when the incident happened. Because of Berdos lack of English, he only heard "yellow card. Any other English speaking referee would have clarified/discussed it with his touch judge before he made a final decision.
If you remember, Berdos was the video referee the previous week in the 1st test. When the ball was ripped out of Monye's hands as he crossed the goal line, the referee (Bryce Lawrence) couldn't quite understand what the video ref was saying and he had to ask him numerous times what his decision was. In his broken English, it was very unclear what he was saying. In the end, Lawrence awarded a drop-out 22, when the video ref said a scrum 5, Lions ball. It clearly wasn't a try, but his poor English and lack of knowledge of the laws, led to a very confusing situation.
It is clear from the de Villiers' comments about the Burger yellow card that he full-supported and actually encouraged the over-zealous physical side of the Bok's game. As a mouthpiece of the South African Rugby Union, he should have thought about his response very carefully. But clearly he didn't care about the repercussions. I firmly believe that he should be reprimanded and that someone higher up in the SARU should apologize for his remarks.
The Boks are very a talented rugby team, but the Burger and Botha incidents and the coach's response, leave such a bad taste in one's mouth. They have won the series, so they should celebrate and be humble in victory. Antagonistic, inflammatory remarks are totally inappropriate and uncalled for at this time.
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to be honest, i honestly believed it was a try....and had it been a Lions try, i would have felt the same....
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Unfortunately refs do not have eyes in the back of their heads, I thought that's what the linesmen are for?? Anyway a example of interpretation of the law was in one of the midweek games when the ref kept on penalizing Gethin Jenkins for collapsing the scrum, I'm not a prop but how is the Ref meant to tell who is doing what when he is on the other side of the scrum??
Maybe we should have a video ref looking for misconduct, if he see's it he notifier's the ref in the next stoppage of play and makes a ruling?
If you commit a illegal movement it will be punished in real time far better!!
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sweetchariot26 - cheers for a reasonable post. Agreed the Burger should have been carded and that his ban isn't long enough. No idea where we found our coach, can't see SARFU keeping him around too long, he's quickly becoming an embarassment...
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ctmanbok I would of said the same, you have to give your own team the benefit of the doubt.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Eye gouging is dispicable and Schalk got off lightly, but apart from this incident, there's not much else to complain about! The Lions were just as guilty of off the ball stuff, even in the 1st test. Perhaps the Boks took their que from the Lions in the 2nd. The lions are pure class but so are the Sprinboks. Just because the Lions played well and felt they were in control at times doesn't mean they deserved to win. Losing is horrible but it happens, so intead of labeling the boks as bullies and dirty players just accept that while the Lions gave the Boks fierce opposition the Boks managed to pull it off! The Lions lost, even the Lions coach admitted "through a lack of composure"! Boks for a whitewash!!!
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Now we're back to the fickle again!
Thuggery and over-zealous and can't speak English and Burger/Botha and physicality and bias and blindness and red cards and yellow cards and 8 weeks and no try and bad tastes and violence and rucks and mauls and moan moan moan!
Now wasn't Jones' kicking sublime?
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Yes I just can't see us winning the last test now with the likes of Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones,Lee Bryne and possibly O'Driscoll, Jamie Roberts. We have some hot prospects the likes of Keith Earls and Fitzgerald but will they have the know how to pull a victory off??
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Sorry type o That's without the likes of Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones,Lee Bryne and possibly O'Driscoll, Jamie Roberts.
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#158 "you don't have the players crowding around .... the referee so there is no real intimidation for the referee to be influenced into making the wrong decision."
Well, we all wish it were really so ....but if you can get to watch the last 10 minutes again you'll see green/gold's captain waving his fingers around in the ref's face on a penalty in that well-known snivelpansy-gesture from soccer of "Sir, sir, please sir - card sir; sir, please!".
Those of past times would hang their heads for embarrassment if they'd had to watch that sort of antic from their field-leader - and don't let me be misunderstood, JWS is a good player and a good cap' but ..... jeez mate, try and grow a bit of self-respect and if you have to have a go at influencing a ref. then at least growl it next time, not grovel it!
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First off I only saw the first half and the last ten so i didn't see the botha incident or the sheridan one however if either botha tried to break jones' arm or sheridan whacked whoever it was in the groin needless to say they should be banned.
Secondly on the burger incident - I think it was a red card and should be a longer ban. However as to wether or not he intended to do it I doubt when he woke up in the morning he went "I know i want to rip someones eye out". Of course not, in fact I'd bet about 3 seconds before hand if you could take him out of the game and ask him he'd have said he would never do that. However in the heat of the moment things happen, this event will tar his reputation which is a shame as he is a great player. So yeah I guess I can almost understand some of PDV's comments, although some of them are plain ridiculous, i doubt other thant 10 seconds of that match burger will ever have thought gouging would be acceptable. He will probably regret it for a long time as well
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it is clear that eight weeks is not enough for this cowardly act. It is also clear that PDV is a complete joke. Obviously the ref bottled the Burger incident but the lions didn't need this decision to win the game. They had the Boks on the rocks in the first half when they concentrated on playing good open attacking rugby. At half time they decided to try and sit on their lead, not a good idea against such a good side. They kicked the ball away far to much and alloweed the boks to attack from their own ten metre line at will. Yes the lions played well and maybe they didnt get the rub of the greeen but as a lions fan im very disapointed in the way they let the game go so easily with a very negativ change of tactics. They played well got into a strong position and bottled it end of story.
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Smellslikesalmon - I would argue that gouging is worse than biting; both are despicable, but biting cannot leave you blind.
Burger really ought to have gone for the gouge; even the touch judge put in a big hint to the ref by saying "a yellow - at least", but, perhaps expectedly for a Frenchman, he bottled it. I recall Labuschagne assaulting Jonny Wilkinson in the opening minutes at Twickenham in 2002, obviously reckoning he could get away with it due to the early timing and the major status of the Springboks, but the ref rightly gave him his marching orders.
The (too short) suspension won't make a blind (ahem) bit of difference now, in fact it will probably help the Boks, as Heinrich Brussow has been their most effective back rower of the series.
Finally, I didn't think De Villers could make any more of an idiot of himself than he did during the First Test, but he managed it with aplomb. What happened to the promises after the last World Cup to scrap the affirmative action racial quota system? Both on the pitch (Jacobs over Fourie?!) and off it, with this buffoon replacing Jake White, the best coach in rugby.
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You can only dream !!
Lee Byrne; Tommy Bowe, Brian O'Driscoll, Jamie Roberts, Shane Williams (ON Form); Stephen Jones, Mike Phillips; Gethin Jenkins, Jerry Flannery, Euan Murray, Simon Shaw, Paul O'Connell, Tom Croft, David Wallace, Jamie Heaslip.
Replacements- Matthew Rees,Adam Jones,Rob Kearney,Tomas O'Leary,Martyn Williams,James Hook,Leigh Halfpenny.
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I had the pleasure to be in Durban for the first test and watched the Loftus game back home. A sensational series so far. Durban was my first time in RSA, and I found all the Saffers I spoke to absolutely sound and balanced - once they realised you weren't going to moan or criticise their team's physicality. And its clear from above, that we all appreciate our teams taking the opposition on toe to toe.
We all know Burger should have walked, but he didn't. The biggest issue was that we couldn't keep 15 on the park - the reasons irrelevant as the only incident that could be construed as cynical was Jones.
The Lions have played, against all the odds due to the consistent marginalisation of the concept by the professional game, the most exciting and creative rugby I have seen in many years. The Boks are a cracking side, well drilled and big but with limited attacking creativity.
It is disappointing to hear what, I assume are intelligent rugby people, retreat to cliched hemisphere types and have to defend their team, often without objective assessment rather than be grateful for a fantastic series of games where the best team in the world have been taken to the edge by a scratch side of players from countries that they think are nothing but whingers from third world rugby back waters.
It should be 1-1 with all to play for but it isn't. Well done Boks for showing fantastic strngth of character - treasure Fourie and du Preez and beware Du Plessis - great kicker but what else has he got. And the boys in red - you are heros. Not for the claret split, but by proving that the strength of the game North of Bloemfontain is in rude health with wit, creativity and heart.
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Aside from the confusion over punishing the offence on the pitch adequately, and punishing Burger appropriately after the game, Peter de Villiers should be censured for his denial and endorsement of illegal practices during the game. Peter de Villiers' retraction does little to redress his 'anything goes' attitude which is a very poor advert for rugby anywhere, and taint's a wider perception of Rugby in South Africa.
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PDV is nieve in his thoughts as to where the line of physical conforntation is drawn. A boxer enters the ring with only one thought in mind - to knock his opponent out - but can not hit below the belt use the head excessivly and has no fingers are on show to gouge. Even in the most barbaric of combat sports there still exist "basic" rules.
PDV has shown an insight to the second half tactics issued at half time at the least.
If physical sport is to survive - without entering into the pantomine of professional football - then unquestioned physicallity at the breakdown must be expected by all - players, officials and spectators - but with the "basics" adhered to.
Lets not be stupid if we let this go lightly punished we are entering the slippery slope to behaviuor like this becomeing the norm with our junior players aspiring to be like Burger.
A line must be drawn in the sand - as players, coaches and supporters we do not want to see the game becomeing soft, but can not tolerate such barbaric behaviour. PDV and Burger should be ashamed of themselves. There is no place for the pre appology thought of PDV in todays game and should - as Glen Hoddle - e force to stand down for misguided comments.
Physicallity YES Cheating NO.
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Peter de Villiers=George Bush They must be clones or something as their mouths open and the neurons fire thirty minutes later!!!
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Whoareyoukiddin #170, agreed about Smit making the "give him a card" gesture at the ref; reminded me of Ronaldo - what a prat.
Causewaycoaster #156, knowing the politically correct lunacy that pervades in South Africa, I would be very surprised if De Villers is given his marching orders. Sad for the Springboks - I can't imagine how good they would be if Jake White were in charge, and allowed to field his best team.
Regarding the loss itself, not having had Burger off would have changed it; and as for Fourie's try, the simple fact is that there was no camera in the right place, and it was impossible to see whether or not he touched the line. Would that that had been the case in the World Cup final!
But I feel that O'Gara cost us the match, and perhaps the series: not only through the well-documented and incredibly foolish concession of the last minute penalty, in which he was too scared to challenge aerially for the ball, but also thanks to his pathetic attempt to stop Fourie seconds before the South African replacement's try. Watch the replay, and see O'Gara bounced off, making as significant an impact on Fourie's progress as a wet fart. Given how close the "try" actually was, had O'Gara managed to impede him for even a split-second, Fourie would not have scored. The fact that O'Gara was fresh off the bench at the time simply highlights his feebleness and cowardice.
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At 16 I was eye-gouged, and blinded. End of union career, end of story.
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Seems that a few of the saffers on here think that winning makes it all OK. It's not and Sheridan and probably BOD both deserved yellows.
But Schalk (whers the beef?) Burger - why did Bryce Lawrence bottle it? And is he the video ref for part 3, guess we'll get nothing off him again then. Gouging must be at least a years ban, no arguments.
Almost as bad though to someone who tries to show the better moral side of rugby were the actions of a few saffers .....waving imaginary yellow cards about like tarty footballers. What sort of "men" do that and why? Even the captain, Herr Smit, who I thought was a gent, was caught clearly doing it like some pathetic little kid.
Great game, lots of nasty smells and tastes though. Mostly SA, how proud they must be. And with PDV as the glorious leader, what do we expect?
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I had a argument with some O'Gara fans? the other day when I told them that O'Gara could not tackle properly and that he was week in defense. they got extremely annoyed when I said Wallace had to protect him..they got even more annoyed when I said Worsley was protecting him!!;]
Enough said!! I do very sorry for him though whether the bang on the face he received was a factor only he knows!
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putto1 So sorry to hear that Mate....I guess no one should argue about your views on gouging then.
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Wallavce protected Littlke O'Gara for the last 12 months! protected the chanel behind him, protected the inside ball,and still O'Gara kicked maost of the ball he had, for Irelan and the Lions. On top of that he cant take the pressure - not Wales v Ireland in 2007 - the poor boy need his mum as well as Wallace on the pitch to look after him. The only consolation is that Worsley and the other 7 in the engilsh pack couldn't have done it thsi year.
The Lions needed Martyn Willimas from the start to give the back row true balance and to get the ball moving! Something none of the other home nations would have understood.
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Oh dear! I seem to have ruffled a few feathers. Actually, I have a number of South African friends. They take pride in being a bunch of arrogant b*******s, and often sing the first line of that song at me. But I just went and searched it up on Youtube and :o ! Hadn't heard that before!
Sorry if I offended. Saffers have a funny sense of humour!
Now, back on topic. I'm not saying the Bokkes won because they were cheating, or through using rough-house tactics. In fact, I think they won because they played better, and had a better bench.
Nor would I have liked to beat the Boks by playing against 14 men.
Perhaps the Boks deserved to lose Burger to a red card? And therefore perhaps deserved to lose? Whatever, we're not discussing the result here.
We're discussing the acceptance of foul play.
Some Bok players did cross the line. Burger aside, there was a campaign against O'Driscoll. Matfield, Botha and du Plessis all made a point of cleaning him out at rucks, which is fine, and getting in a little afters, which is not.
I can accept that fans may not believe their team has done wrong. We all have our blind-spots.
But when you accept that they have done wrong, can you not condemn it?
Re: Bakkies Botha's ban. I couldn't see anything wrong on first view.
When I read 128 above I re-watched it, and he does dive in. His shoulders are below his hips, and he hits Adam Jones in the arm.
He got 2 weeks for dangerous play, so the citing panel didn't judge it deliberate. My question to the South Africans on here, who would know Bakkies better than me; do you think it was deliberate?
If you did think it was deliberate, is that acceptable? Adam Jones had the upper hand in the scrum, by his action Botha gained South Africa a huge advantage. If he was deliberately trying to injure Jones, would you endorse his actions?
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Some Saffers say Burger retaliated to one of the Lions by gouging. Sorry if one of the Lions gives you some verbal...give it to him back, if he punches you..punch him back, if he grabs your crown jewels scream like hell go off the pitch and get them sewn up AKA Wayne Shelford...but do not try to take someones eyes out!!!
I can see with emotions running high why people punch, give verbal and headbutt but gouging is just like someone stabbing you in the back when your not expecting it!!
Alan Quinlan shame on you also!!!
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Ruck_Maker fact is first test Lions no platform in scrum got stuffed first half.
Fact second test-Had the advantage in the scrum and therefore winning then uncontested scrums Boks come back into it...then the injuries and to many changes simialar to the Boks making changes in the First test (without injuries) and losing their cohesion. Conclusion Bok victory. But that's rugby?
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bluecardiffwelsh who do you reckon will replace Martyn Williams eventually??
Sowden Taylor?? They were talking about Ben Lewis at the Ospreys but he's just getting back to full fitness.
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I watch rugby union occasionally, usually only when England (or the Lions) play and not much else. I've never played the game. On the other hand I play and watch football regularly.
I think the footballing world can learn a lot from rugby, in terms of respect to the ref, respect after the game, and lack of diving etc. However, I wish some of you rugby fans would get off your high horses with respect to 'pansy footballers'. I understand it's a far more physical game than most other sports, but IMO that gives no player any right to punch, let alone eye gauge, an opponent. Eye gauging in particular is a complete act of cowardice, and I'm glad to say I can only imagine the uproar there'd be if it occured on the football field.
If I go out to play a sport, I'll be prepared to take knocks and the odd kick off the ball. But to know there's a fairly decent chance that I'd get smacked in the face, or even the smaller possibility of an opponent sticking a finger in my eye, I think I'd be less keen. I have friends who play, and one of them in particular comes back every other week with a fat lip.
There might be respect in many aspects of the sport, but this is one area where I feel rugby falls spectacularly short. A tougher stance should be taken before someone is blinded.
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187. Flytaff:
Would agree that the scrum was absolutely vital in this series. But this was flagged well in advance. How could the Lions scrum have been that bad in the first Test? How did the coaching staff mess up those selections?
Could it be that we all over-reacted, and Vickery just had a bad day, and the Beast had his best day ever? Is Adam Jones that much better?
I wouldn't have thought so. But more relevantly, Rowntree and Gatland didn't think so, and they're being paid to know!
So, can blame ourselves, rather than the Boks, for our defeat.
PS Hope we play Sheridan-Ross-Hayes-Shaw-O'Callaghan-Hines-Worsley-Powell in the 3rd Test and just clobber every Bok into the dirt! :)
Only joking! Hope we try to win instead.
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lolthebraps I went to a Leeds V Sheffield Wednesday with my English girlfriend around 15 years ago just to see what it was like......not good my friend..the hatred was incredible..I know they were rivals but it was beyond a joke and i was on the edge sitting between both crowds!!!
Don't know if it's changed or not but unfortunately the few give your sport a bad image and that gets out with the media and so on.
As a rugby fan to be honest I nether hate your sport or like it...it's just like a non entity to myself. Blame the likes of Ronaldo and the other pansies for giving your sport a soft reputation and not every rugby supporter;}
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Ruck_Maker I was thinking it was Vickery's height that was the factor, the beast is 6Ft 2 inches also and probably more powerful, if Vickery had been shorter the more technique he might of been able to use against him.
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To one particular Saffer wum
Sth Africa clinched it at Twickers a couple of weeks ago
WORLD 7's CHAMPIONS!
That's why we so enjoy seeing English claret on the pitch
Ignorant!
YOU DID NOT WIN THE ACTUAL WORLD CUP SEVENS TOURNAMENT IN DUBAI THOUGH DID YOU.........WALES DID......IN YOUR LOGIC THAT WOULD MEAN THAT WALES ARE A FAR BETTER TEAM THAN SOUTH AFRICA!!!
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Right - Let's be clear - eye gouging is bad and is no part of the game (well except that clearly some members of the original Lions squad clearly weren't above it). Burger probably should have got a longer ban but the ref and assistant conferred and gave a decision during the match - was I alone seeing B'OD 'failing' to use both arms in one 'tackle' during the second half and not being penalized?
I am a bit sick that the Lions captain showed his stuff and complained about over zealous refereeing after the first test and that the scrum were looking forward to having a ref who was a bit more streetwise about the 'practicalities' of forward play only to complain that violent conduct was only partially penalised but lets put it into perspective it didn't cost the Lions the game - or the series- poor execution did that. The Bokkies shouldn't have been in touch in the second test and they were let back in. In the first test they spilled plenty of points.
I guess it isn't sexy press to say that the Lions have earned what they deserved from the tour (great club results but nothing from the tests).
Perspective please.
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The postings arein relation to unsporting dangerous and reckless conduct - I have no complaints regarding the results all is fair in love and war - but there were no bad performances in either test from either side.
The biggest culprits havee been the match officals - especialy the NH refs - Wayne Barnes, Berdos and even Nigel Owens (!) - with their management of the game. Barnes in particular really disapointed.
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Flytaff, I know going to games can be pretty intense. I'm only 20 so don't really know how much it's changed over the years really. I like the way there's more songs/chanting at football matches but it often gets to the stage where people feel intimidated to the point of not going/not taking their kids. I don't see what can be done to change that though really to be honest. Are the fans more passionate? I'm not in a position to comment really.
Personally, I think gouging an eye is more cowardly than feigning injury though. "Simulation" (as commentators annoyingly call it sometimes), the lesser of 2 evils you could say.
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If the RFU are serious about clamping down on malicious injury with intent such as eye-gouging, they should ban de Villiers from all rugby stadiums for at least a year. (I would make it life).
His comments were stupid at best, and will justify such behaviour amongst young rugby players all over S Africa even more than Burger's moment of thuggery (and if he does it minutes into a Test match you can bet he's already had many such moments before).
We're all aware he's just "apologised" to get off the hook, but as he well knows and as he well intended, the damage has already been done and everyone knows what he really thinks.
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Whilst I prefer the round ball game, I cannot beilieve the soft punishment handed out to the saffer for his eye gouging. The ref and his, so called, assistant saw the incident, it had to be a straight red card. As far as the citing bit goes, I would reccomend a minimum 18 month ban as this is exactly the sort of nastiness that has to be banishied from all sport, just like dug taking. As far as PDV is concerned, this horrible little cockroach needs to be booted out of the game, as it is the only way SA will rescue what is left of their dignity.
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There isn't a single country that can claim moral authority when it comes to foul play on a rugby field. So turning this discussion into a tit-for-tat for or against SA rugby is not the point. The point is that eye-gouging is despicable, dangerous and should be punished with a straight red card and a very lengthy ban (or financial fine if the player is professional). As for PDV, his words say it all. He has as much no common sense and is devoid of any rugby values. The IRB should publcily censure him.
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Quote- McGeechan
Lions head coach Ian McGeechan earlier voiced his displeasure over Burgers actions that left Ireland Grand Slam winner Fitzgerald requiring treatment to his eye before he was able to continue.
I could never condone actions like that, said McGeechan. I would hate to see those again.
It should automatically be a red card, as I understand it.
McGeechan also hit back at comments from his Springboks counterpart Peter de Villiers.
He added: I heard a quote (from de Villiers) that it might be part of the game. To me, that is never part of the game.
I am very disappointed he (de Villiers) said that. I cant see that ever being part of the game. It certainly wouldnt be part of a game I want to be associated with.
Mike Phillips Quote
MIKE PHILLIPS has branded the foul tactics of the Springboks disgusting and accused South Africa of gouging and punching throughout the brutal second Test defeat in Pretoria.
The Wales scrum-half fired an unprecedented broadside at the World Cup holders following the agonising 28-25 loss.
Phillips was adamant Schalk Burger should have been sent off after just 32 seconds of the bitter battle for blatantly gouging the left eye of Lions winger Luke Fitzgerald.
Shaun Edwards Quote
Shaun Edwards, the Lions defence coach, says South Africa's flanker Schalk Burger should have been sent off for eye gouging in the brutal second Test defeat at Loftus Versfeld. In the event he was cited and, after a disciplinary hearing in Pretoria.
Edwards was incensed that Burger stayed on the field after an incident in the first minute in which he gouged the young Irish wing Luke Fitzgerald in front of the touch judge Bryce Lawrence. In his Guardian column Edwards says: "When Bryce Lawrence saw Schalk Burger's fingers in Luke Fitzgerald's eyes he should have recommended something stronger than 'at least a yellow card'. In the heat of a Test match with fans bellowing, if Lawrence meant red, he should have said red."
I guess as these coaches & players are British that their views are bias, incorrect and do not matter?
De Villiers Quote
Springbok flanker Schalk Burger should not have been given a yellow card for gouging the eye of British and Irish Lions wing Luke Fitzgerald, South African coach Peter de Villiers said.
"I don't believe it was a card at all," De Villiers said after the Springboks won the second test 28-25 on Saturday to clinch the series.
South Africa are deciding whether or not to appeal Schalk Burger's eight-week ban for eye-gouging.
Springbok coach Peter de Villiers is backing his flanker even though he says he's watched the video footage which shows the back row with his fingers in both Luke Fitzgerald's eyes.
De Villiers claims it wasn't a deliberate act and also refused to apologise for saying it didn't even warrant the yellow card issued by French referee Christophe Berdos at the time.
Burger's ban will last until late August, ruling him out of the third Test next weekend and South Africa's opening three Tri-Nations games.
What a nugget!!!!!
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Eye for an eye: men who have been sighted doing wrong
Dylan Hartley (Northampton)
Banned for six months in April 2007 after Guinness Premiership game against London Wasps and missed England selection for World Cup.
Neil Best (Northampton)
Banned for 18 weeks in September 2008 after Premiership game against Wasps and missed out on selection for Ireland.
Alan Quinlan (Munster)
Banned for 12 weeks in May 2009 after incident with Leo Cullen during Heineken Cup semi-final against Leinster, ruling the flanker out of the present Lions tour.
Olivier Azam (Gloucester)
Banned for nine weeks in May 2009 after incident with Jamie Roberts in EDF Energy Cup game with Cardiff Blues. Will miss start of next season.
Sergio Parisse (Italy)
Banned for eight weeks in June 2009 after incident with Isaac Ross during match against New Zealand. Will miss start of French Top 14.
Schalk Burger (South Africa)
Banned for eight weeks in June 2009 after incident with Luke Fitzgerald during second international against the Lions and will miss four internationals.
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The issue I think, comes with the player (Burger) pulling against someones head face to get them out of a Ruck or Maul (Same situation with Quinlan). The chances of coming into contact with someones eyes are going to increase if you put your hands on someones head.
Now I'm not saying that it isn't right to pull someones head via their face to get them out of the ruck, as it's not illegal (I personally don't do it when playing).
The more it happens the greater the risk of fingers coming into contact with the eyes.
In Burgers case though you can see the reaction from Fitzgerald that it wasn't just a case of pulling on his head, the fingers were actually in the eyes and digging.
I personally agree with the common consensus that it should have been more.
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Bakkie Botha's actions weren't a lot better. Does anyone else think it was a coincidence he targeted Adam Jones? The Boks were getting murdered up front - losing Jenkins and Jones cost the Lions the Test and the series.
PDV is a joke - he won't last another year in that job. And when he's sacked, he'll play the race card.
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If the gouging was somehow accidental and in rare cases it can happen as Taibadog refers to, then you would expect Burger to make an effort to remove his hands pretty quick and as soon as he gets up make the utmost statement and apology to let Fitzgerald know that it was a accident...I did not see any of those actions. It's not like he did'nt know where his hands were after a instant and then there was the cuffing of the hands in the pulling action.
So in this instant I do not believe it was a accident.
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Flytaff - in response to your question as to who will replace MW when he retires, I don't think it will be Sowden Taylor, he is just not good enough. Decent enough for the Blues, but not international level. I honestly think it could be Sam Warburton, he was immense at u21 level, and played very well for Wales against USA and Canada. Ok, not great teams, but the lad is very talented. Actually reminds me of a young MW when he started playing for Ponty.
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When I reviewed the Botha incident it looked like to me that he targeted the arm of Adam Jones. Why do I come up with that conclusion...I just can't see how a player as coordinated as Botha in clearing out could miss the body (and it's no small body..sorry Adam) and end up hitting the arm (a extremity) instead. Maybe it was just coincidence I guess we have to give Botha the benefit of the doubt on that one....maybe his contacts had fallen out!!
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An eight-week ban is pathetic. Was it so lenient, compared to Best, Quinlan et al., because it was a "world champion" who was guilty this time? No-one has a mandate over morality in rugby but this decision stinks. It is also apparent, their coach's feeble "apology" aside, that the South Africans simply don't care and probably feel aggrieved.
It is almost impossible for gouging to be an accidient. It is premeditated and clearly designed to severely injure a player. It can cause career-ending damage and as such, all gouging should see a minimum ban of two years from all forms of rugby, as a minimum penalty. Then those who do it, like Burger, Quinlan, Best, etc. might think about it.
There is a clear double standard at play in the decision to award only an eight-week penalty to Burger. There should be a simple, manditory ban and that would end any bias and make it clear to everyone that this can't be tolerated.
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Agreed tomo1978, Sowden's form has dropped off last season...really like the look of Warburton...hope the Scarlets play him more this season.
They were talking about Ben Lewis the 22 year old at the Ospreys before he got a serious injury last year, anyway hope we have a few lads coming through this year as we need some cover in that position.
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In one respect I'm happy that Burger was only given a yellow.
If the card had been a straight red, there is not the slightest doubt that the Lions would have won, and won well - maybe even to the extent of holding a significant psychological advantage for the decider.
In which case we whinging Brits would have had to endure months - no years - of bitter comments from SA fans about how the Lions only won the tour because of a debatable sending-off. Because while no-one seems to doubt the red was deserved, had it actually been given the torrent of abuse against the ref would be far worse than it is now...
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hermannredux I would still prefer to win with 14 men as I would thrive off bleating Saffers;]
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Anybody give us a chance on Saturday? Jones and Jenkins out, Roberts and O'Driscoll maybe out?
Scary.
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The idea that this was an isolated incident by Burger is patently wrong, anyone watching him in Currie Cup, Super 14 or international only has to watch how many times his right arm comes swinging in toward an opponent when making a tackle, mostly toward the head area,to see that the man is far from a hard but fair player, although not quite the thug that Bakkies Botha is it is clear that his intention is to hurt an opponent as often as possible as opposed to trying to play the game as intended. He would go down very well in French Rugby along with a lot of the Eastern European's of very dubious moral backgrounds that are inhabiting a few of the Top 14 Packs nowadays.
There does appear to be a double standard in the meting out of bans also although not to the extent found in New Zealand 4 years ago in the infamous spear tackle incident when neither transgressor was given anything but a slap on the back for taking out the Lion's captain in the most cynical way, and as for Mr Lawrence I am afraid his ineptitude was evident in the 1st test when he repeatedly allowed the Beast to bore in ,which is illegal, and only penalised the Lions for having to suffer this illegal act and cetainly gave the Boks the advantage they had early in the scrums. I don't blame the Beast by the way he tried it and got away with it, the Ref is there to stop this sort of thing and obviously had no idea what was going on.
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Sorry I really want the boys to win on Saturday just to give them a boost but I don't think our replacements are as good as the boys we lost. The props would be ok but without O'Driscoll and Jamie Roberts I can't see it happening...god hope I'm wrong though!!
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I'm a bok supporter and was pretty disturbed by PDV reaction, clearly the guy is just trying to defend his players as all coaches do, but the way he went about it just defied stupidity. The fact remains, burger should have been sent off, the touchline asst. called a yellow, end of dispute. It was clearly a refereeing error, so live with it. Could it have changed the outcome of the match??? Yes.
I don't for one minute believe that burger's reputation can be tarnished for the one error, such incidents happen all the time in rugby and it happens all over the world. The ban schalk got was fair if u compare other incidents that happened in the past. I predicted a bok win last week and we got one. Close match, great game, now for the whitewash.
GO BOKKE!!!
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Agreed ChelseaSaffer a whitewash as we have no players left......they are considering playing in wheelchairs and crutches though....they might even use them to defend themselves;]
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No 193. Out of interest, who is the current no 1 Rugby 7s team?
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ctmanbok-We know who that is, I acknowledge that but that's not what am getting at...put it this way it's like winning the Six Nations but not the Grandslam or being World No.1 in Tennis and not winning Wimbledon!!
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Flytaff no 207...... thankfully in South Africa we have only had this one incident of late taking place, that being the recent Burger gouging. Thankfully we don't have such a ill disciplinary record in either our Currie Cup or Super 14 competition with regards to gouging as you appear to have in the UK looking at your stats?
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ctmanbok-As for Wales being better at 7's than South Africa I am not that blind, they are getting better and we do need to promote and invest in it more but we all know that they were indeed lucky to win it....but they did and that's what matters right?
Anyway I was just having a dig at one particular Saffer wum not you good Saffers;]
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Flytaff.... cheers mate. Only asking as I thought South Africa were rated no 1 this year and as i don't usually follow the 7s thought my information was incorrect.
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ctmanbok I know the Stats I was the one who put them up, I'm not denying that. The records speak for themselves.
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215 JimmyQ... so then I can say Adams was boring in just because this week the Lions dominated the scrum....get a life mate and read what the Lions coaches had to say on reflection...even Vickery.
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Must say I can't wait for Wales V South Africa in the Autumn, reckon we might have a better chance than the Lions being together longer as a squad and being at home. Injuries allowing that is.
Lets face it the Lions don't have long to gel as a unit, have had end of season injury problems hence a depleted squad and had to play the World Champions in their own backyard and at altitude in some cases. They have done extremely well as a enigma in modern age rugby and may it go on!!
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Please let us have an end to the constant "The Lions would have won against 14 men". At the end of the day 15 played 15. After Burger was sent off, Matfield pushed BOD, who moved away, Matfield was then pushed by Phillips who has been very vocal about the physical approach of the Boks. It was not the Boks who injured BOD, 0'Gara, Roberts. I keep on hearing how the Lions were dominant in the scrums? Go back and count the total number of scrums in the game, 12 of which the Lions won 1 on their own line. The Boks took the lineouts, scored a try from one and scored two from broken play. They missed 4 kicks at goal which had Steyn been on from the start would have made the score 40-25. If I remember correctly prior to the match it was all about the Lions matching the physicality of the Boks and look what happened to BOD. At the end of the day Burger should have been sent off.....but who knows if the Lions would have won?
Prepare yourselves for 50+ on Saturday.
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both the yellow card and six week ban are not severe enough. eye gouging is not in the spirit of the game and actually amounts to assault, though it will clearly not be treated as such until permanent damage is sustained. the weak punishments administered by the referee and the disciplinary hearing will prove to be as guilty as the perpetrators if, eye gouging continues and inevitably, somebody is permanent damaged.
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226. Flytaff...I also can't wait....just hope the Saffers can maintain their winning record of 96% over the Welsh. Will be at the stadium as I always enjoy the Welsh fans in Cardiff...
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To be honest, what Burger did was unaccaptable and I'm sure anyone with anything to do with rugby would agree. However, he was cited and banned so at least something was done about it. The ban may be seen as being too lenient but I don't recall Tana Umaga or Kevin Mealamu being penalised for their spear tackle on Brian O'Driscoll during the last Lions tour, let alone either player being cited or banned. Things are looking up, something was done about the incident. Maybe come the next Lions tour the IRB will be able to provide 3 referees capable of refereeing at the top level.....
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The issue over Burgers disgraceful behaviour and that of his moronic supportive coach is clear. In this case it is incumbent upon the IRB to step up and impose serious minimum penalties for the more heinous foul play and in particular, eye-gouging. The IRB cannot escape their responsibilities since the SARFU clearly will not undertake their ethical responsibilities. Rugby is tough but it is not about thuggery and the thugs should be taken out of the game - permanently.
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it certainly was an eye catching moment...but what to say?
the boks are yet another brood of southern hemispherians with a massive chip on their shoulders...here in the UK we can see things objectively and admit to wrongdoing, they are blinded by their inability to appear to be answerable to us..
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At "yebogogogo"
I will hazard the guess that you are an Aussie or South African, which then in turns justifies your blindly arrogant comments. Big words do not an intelligent man make.
Look most here are not that distraught over the loss, in fact most kind of expected us to lose against "The world champions" with a team put together in a few weeks. However it can not be denied that the Lions were on balance the better team.
If the ref in the first game had given penalty after penalty against your team ensuring that you couldnt get going then I imagine you would be on here ranting.
From my perspective, it was the manner in which two of South Africa's talismen conducted themselves is what sticks in my throat. Botha & Burger were out of order and far removed from the spirit in which the first test game and the majority of the second test game was played. I understand the mentality of letting the lesser regional teams send out some inept bruisers to take a few of us out. But come on when it is two of your most repsected internationals in the most important test game it makes it harder to take. Also the touch ref bottled the decision.
In the southern hemisphere there seems to be a very football nature creeping into ye're game. This asking for cards business, kicking out and sneaky digs, sickening truly sickening. That kind of sportsmanship should be left to the likes of ronaldo et al. Also I remember being on a forum after BOD's spear tackling against New Zealand and there again most of the southern Hem Boys were adamant we were whinging again.
There is my friend a substantial difference between the glaringly obvious and biased media reporting.
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I don't think the Beast was boring all the time..I did see him do it once though. Anyhow if he got away with it you can only blame the Ref. With Vickery I believe it was more of a height issue (both 6,2) and the Beast more powerful, Vickery could not use technique to counteract his power due to their heights.I also think Vickery had a bad day at the office also.
Adam Jones just used 15 years of experience/technique with his lower height to counteract the Beasts power and lack of experiece (3 years) which is a short time for a prop to get good.
The only time I saw someone consistently boring was I believe a midweek match where one of the Saffer props got away with it against Gethin Jenkins how the ref could tell on the other side of the scrum I will never know?? Anyway someone must of said something at half time as Gethin did not give away any penalties away second half.
Just another point Vickery has done a bit of boring in his time also!!
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234. Flytaff....can't agree with your more. Finally a balanced view, no matter which side of the fence you sit. Cheers.
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232.. secretblueboy....don't use the same brush on all us Saffers mate! Be a little more balanced in your opinion.
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ctmanbok still that 4% must hurt, i remember the time you came to Cardiff all confident, World Champions for the first time and what you get beaten by a inferior race;] World Champions but not undefeated!! you know we put out our third team to play you when you come over, they consist of sheep farmers, potato pickers and some English players we feel sorry for;]
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Flytaff.... yes, you did beat us and played fantastic rugby on the day. And no, the 4% does not hurt me....in fact i don't mind if it were 50%....i want to watch a game of rugby not knwing what the outcome is going to be before kickoff even and that is why i have enjoyed the Lions series....too close to call. The Welsh have a great bunch of rugby players even though they are sheep farmers......oh that reminds me also Bismarck is a farmer and so is Bakkies, and incidently so was most of the former Boks players....suppose that is why they are so battle harderned....not sitting in an office all day like us.
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For those who have not scrolled up, the stats speak for themselves. The worst case I saw was with Garin Jenkins the Welsh Prop, the photo just wants to make you turn away.
Eye for an eye: men who have been sighted doing wrong
Dylan Hartley (Northampton)(English)
Banned for six months in April 2007 after Guinness Premiership game against London Wasps and missed England selection for World Cup.
Neil Best (Northampton) (Irish)
Banned for 18 weeks in September 2008 after Premiership game against Wasps and missed out on selection for Ireland.
Alan Quinlan (Munster)(Irish)
Banned for 12 weeks in May 2009 after incident with Leo Cullen during Heineken Cup semi-final against Leinster, ruling the flanker out of the present Lions tour.
Olivier Azam (Gloucester)(French)
Banned for nine weeks in May 2009 after incident with Jamie Roberts in EDF Energy Cup game with Cardiff Blues. Will miss start of next season.
Sergio Parisse (Italy)(Italian)
Banned for eight weeks in June 2009 after incident with Isaac Ross during match against New Zealand. Will miss start of French Top 14.
Schalk Burger (South Africa)(Saffer)
Banned for eight weeks in June 2009 after incident with Luke Fitzgerald during second international against the Lions and will miss four internationals.
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Eye gouging is completely repulsive and the scum that perpetrate it should be thrown out of the game. I was gouged in a school game in the seventies and have never forgotten it. It was one of the scariest things that has happened to me. It was against a public school and the referee did not nothing about. Still what do you expect from the Saes.
Rugby officials have to act now and stamp this out completely. when you are fighting for the ball to have your eye poked at is just cowardly. These cowards should not be allowed to play and be banned sine die. However the officials will be wek and kepp allowing this ubtil soemething very serious happens
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ctmanbok-You have a point about farmers alright, some of our best players were also farmers, like John Davies who played for Llanelli or miners who are even harder!!
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I was as disgusted by the Burger gouge as I was the Quinlan gouge.
There are other similarities too in the sense that management (Munster and Leinster in Quinlan's case) were quick to defend their players - in Quinlan's case, I even remember Paul O'Connell saying what a 'good bloke' he was.
Players found guilty of eye gouging should receive a lengthy ban.
Now to the Lions, once again, the Lions can't live with losing so they have to blame something. It was the ref's fault last week, the linesman's fault this week.
In NZ, it was because of the infamous 'spear' tackle, and then, it was Clive Woodward's fault - he was to blame for losing the series.
These guys need to grow up, they're supposed to be the best of the best from 4 rugby playing nations..... start winning or lose with dignity.
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Octorber 4th 1999 -
World Cup officials have decided to take no action against Argentina's Roberto Grau, accused of gouging Wales hooker Garin Jenkins' eye during the tournament's opening match at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium.
Well I guess they are trying to do something about it now.
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http://wesclark.com/rrr/tenpin.html
Garin Jenkins photo (gouging)
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I am so tired of hearing about this all!!! Burger should have been sent off but wasnt, and that is sport!! Should Jannes Labuschagne have been red carded for tackling Johnny in Nov 2002? NO? and that is sport!! Burger has been banned, as he should be, i dont agree with what he did and he let his team mates down. Would the Lions like to be remembered for winning against 14 men? i dont think so and lest we forget about the foul play from the Lions and BOD's cinical shoulder charge from off-sides! Suck it up and get on with it. The Lions were 10-0 up after that and Schalk did not even feature, so dont be bitter for the Lions throwing the game away and being outplayed in the second half. Its disgusting how the British media and public have taken the glory out of this win for the Springbok supporters. A true rugby supporter, like most of my mates, have congratulated us and moved on.
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that_is_sport - BOD'S Shoulder charge could hardly be put into the same category as Burger's offense!! Yes it should be yellow but if it's yellow Burger's should be red.
I disagree with the Lions throwing away the match in the second half or being outplayed, more a case of injury disruption, losing a scrum platform (going to uncontested scrums which allowed you back into the game) and lack of cohesion with the new players coming on.
Yes well done on the victory but I don't think you should be patting yourselves on the backs.
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South Africa have earned areputation as ateam that plays dirty down the tywears and am not suprised by Burger'actions.
Remember James Labuschange in 2002 someone correct me with the spelling
He took out James Wilkingson with a high tackle and was red carded. Its apity Sooth Africa are defdking Burger'actions.
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at "Erico1977"
this is what i cant believe.... Geech chose a big pack to tour so "we can take the physicality to the Sprinbok pack" but then Botha hits someone hard (which i dont think was illegal) and everyone is up in arms?? if there was no injury to the Lions player, no body would be saying a thing. Lets talk about BOD's shoulder charge on Russouw shall we... he was a long way off-side, and used no arms, while we were building phase after phase and were approaching the 22, that is cinical play and a yellow card in my book!!! But of course no one wearing red saw that did they let alone the ref!! The Ref also failed to see the Lions players falling on the wrong side of the ruck time after time. I think all you Lions supporters should watch that game again and watch how both sides played the same rugby!
this is pathetic, even my responding to all this, but it has got under my skin (not you really, the whole thing) because the media have soured the victory and a good portion of the supporters have adopted the Whinging Pomm attitude. To think I supported England after the Boks gives me a lot of regret.
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The Saffers raved about The OX, Os Du Randt then Scott Gibbs came along, then came the Beast (another animal name?) and then Adam Jones came along.
Wales V South Africa this Autumn can't wait;]
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then came Brussouw, Steyn, Spies.... :) see you at the game Flytaff.
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re- 236. At 08:59am on 30 Jun 2009, ctmanbok wrote:
232.. secretblueboy....don't use the same brush on all us Saffers mate! Be a little more balanced in your opinion.
Sorry I never conducted a survey of all S.Afrikans before posting my comment. But S.A's having chips on shoulders t'wards Brits remains my perception, just as 'inbalance' 'is your perception of me. pride n prejudice an all that..
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that_is_sport Watch the Botha incident again my son, is he so uncoordinated that he can miss Adam Jones huge mass and take out a arm instead...yeah maybe it was by accident and maybe his contact lenses fell out...I give him the benefit of the doubt on this occasion.
ctmanbok-yeah maybe we can have a few beers together and sing of a Welsh victory afterwards, we do have a better National Anthem than you after all!!
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ctmanbok-I will look for a 6 Foot 10 inch Boker who will most likely be in the Strip joint (Fantasy Lounge) after the Match drinking cheap and nasty beer;]
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"South Africa have earned areputation as ateam that plays dirty down the tywears and am not suprised by Burger'actions.
Remember James Labuschange in 2002 someone correct me with the spelling
He took out James Wilkingson with a high tackle and was red carded. Its apity Sooth Africa are defdking Burger'actions."
Mate, your English teacher should be shot.
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Having lived in the UK for ten years I am used to the whole whinging pom thing. Every time they lose anything they have to find someone but themselves to blame. Burgers actions were disgraceful and yes he probably should have been handed a more severe punishment but the Lions lost the series due to their own mistakes. They opted to kick the ball away rather than keep it in the hands of the best set of backs I have ever seen. Possesion is everything especially when you are playing against a team as physical as the springboks. During the second test the Lions were sublime for the first half but a bit average in the second half. Surely you didn't expect to beat the world champs by playing well for half the match.
You guys have so much to be proud of. The Lions were fantastic and played with grit and determination. Don't focus on one mans moronic actions. If you want to ponder anything, look at the missed opportunities and how you can improve rather than shifting the blame. It's called moving forward, something the UK public are not good at.
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Blobbage at 175, I thank you for your kind and gracious words.
As a South African please accept my apologies for an awful two seconds of madness. Burger should have been sent off, but he wasn't. We had the same terrible ref for both sides and got away with something disgusting. I dare say so did Sheridan.
I'm glad you were well received in Durban and I promise you, most Saffers I know would be honoured to play against your like again.
That's all anyone wanted: "well done". Beating the Lions is a mammoth thing and one eyegouge - disgusting as it is - should not make a whole series.
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I was just having a think there aboyut recent lions tours and th rough justice served on the Lions.
In Austalia O'Gara got assaulted by Mc Rae. I seem to remember he got a fairly long ban in terms of time but very little in terms of matches missed.
Richard Hill was smashed off the ball ( think it was an Aussie centre, maybe Daniel Herbert but totally to correction, who gave a glancing elbow to Hills head and kocked him spark out) He got no ban.
Then there was O'Driscoll and Umaga in New Zealand. Think that was mentioned once or twice on these pages!
And now Luke Fitzgerald.
Yes Rugby is not ballet etc (it is a sad day when I am reduced to quoting PDV!) but surely an entity as historic and, yes profitable, as the Lions need some more protection...or at least an even playing field
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shano1 - Actually I'm a Taff and not a Pom.
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I tend to agree with the Bok fans who are moaning about our moaning. Why blame Burger (moronic actions aside), when we should be blaming McGeechan's selections (Vickery, Mears and Monye in the first Test, and O'Gara ahead of Hook on the bench in the second Test), and also O'Gara's 10 minutes of madness.
We're so busy slating the Springboks, we're ignoring our own deficiencies.
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Whilst I don't agree with eye gouging and thought what Burger did was disgraceful. What we all can't disagree with is that we have had too great games of Rugby between two highly competitive teams packed with lots of talent. As a Lions fan I was deeply upset by the loss, but proud at the same time.
We can argue all day long who should and should not have been yellow or red carded, if all the SA & Lions fans were honest there were bad aspects of play from both teams, whilst good at the same time, there is not much to be done about it now. Only the officials can ensure that they get the decision right in the future and given the support they need.
Whilst Burger maybe should have been sent off, rightly or wrongly it would have ruined the game and therefore enabled a hard fought match. Both matches were very similar in the fact that one team dominated the first half. In the 2nd half key players went off, through subsitutions or injuries and affected one teams dominance, however hats off to SA for fighting to the end and for Morne Steyn to have the nerve to slot a kick from 55m to win the match, as much as I take my hat off to Elton Flatly in WC final 03 for the kick to take the match into extra time.
I would have liked to see a final this saturday, but it is not to be. Lions is a fantastic thing and long may it live, bringing 4 nations together to play the best teams in the world and unlike the last tour were the All black were far superior, this tour provided some fantastic matches.
I would say however, that SA deserve a coach that is a tribute to a proud rugby nation, but a big Congrats to SA for their win.
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FINAL WORD
It is totally clear SA only won on Saturday because they had a player on who shouldn't have been on for 79.5 mins and because (possibly under coaching orders based on PdV's appalling comments it now appears) SA 'worked hard' to get Lions key players disrupted and/or off the field. To narrowly win at home against a scratch side who were playing several players injured and out of position most of the 2nd half, after they battered SA first half is hardly a stellar fair and square victory. SA had no outstanding performers, and spent most of the match tackling and living off Lions mistakes, and then being brought home by a specialist kicker. In a well refereed game played to anything like the rules and even maybe one not conveniently missing a vital TMO camera view Lions would have won by at least 15. That's the truth. No argument. Every neutral knows it.
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fabuniquemembername - Hey I've slagged O'Gara off no end, had a argument the other day with O'Gara fans?? said he could not tackle and cannot defend and that Wallace had to protect him in the channels all the time, they got really annoyed when I said that even Worsley (Englishman) had to protect him!!!
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Flytaff: Wish I'd been here for that one! I have no respect for a guy who can't/won't tackle. And how one man could do so much damage to his own team in 10 minutes is mind-boggling.
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It is a disgrace how Burger "got away" with this. 8 weeks is a paltry Ban for this most heinous of offences. There is no point in Banning him for a Year as some have suggested here. The reason being is that it will be appealed and therefore reduced. The best option was a 6 month ban. Alan Quinlan must feel really aggrieved at hearing the outcome of Burger's citing.
The next option is for the I.R.B. to hit the next professional player with a large ban and make an example of them. Albeit it will be too late for this particular incident. Burger can count himself a lucky boy and Peter De Villiers needs to to get a bit of cop-on, What Burger did was indefensible.
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hammersmithjack at at 261.
So if you'd played against 14 men for 79 minutes, you would have won?
You must be so proud.
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People say if you can't defend and tackle then you should not be playing rugby. However O'Gara has managed it with Munster and Ireland for years, even Paddy Wallace confirms it. As long as he is protected it is possible but you must have a dominant team behind you and not get into a position where the weakness is evident. Whether the bang on the face was a factor in the second test I do not know, it did occur before the Saffer try?
He is one hell of a infield and goal kicker though and I guess that's why they put up with it.
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251.. secretblueboy - what you must understand it is not English brits the Afrikaaners have a problem with, its even the english South Africans, so don't take it personally. :) You know, Boer war and all that crap that took place way before our time.
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Flytaff....oohhh national anthem comment...that was a low blow. But i must agree, you boys sing beautifully!
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253 Flytaff, you will actually find me in the finest wine bar that Cardiff has to offer...sorry if i don't fit the typical Saffer image...some of us do have taste :)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ctmanbok - anyway why do you get 2 Anthems is it because they really bad!!
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261... hammersmithjack - is that not how you won the series in 97.... no tries vs 3 from the boks and a kicking boot got y6ou there in the end :) cheers mate!
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ctmanbok response to 269 nah you need some Skull Attack (Brains SA) good for the heart u know!!
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I wonder how many parents/kids have been put off a visit to their local rugby club because of this. These days there are plenty of sports to choose from - why pick one where you might get deliberately blinded?
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180. At 00:17am on 30 Jun 2009, putto1 wrote:
At 16 I was eye-gouged, and blinded. End of union career, end of story.
Poor guy, says it all really.
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Flytaff.... actually it is 3 anthems.....one african, 1 afrikaans and 1 english.... lucky we did not have to squeeze in alol 11 OFFICIAL languages.... and little boys no, i do however have a little boy :) mail me your number so i can join you in your victory drinik mate. :)
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Yes the outrage is justified. There are two issues here.
The ban of 8 weeks is pathetic. For me if any player is shown to have deliverately perpetuated an act that could have caused such a horrendous injury then the bare minimum sentance should be 6 months.
The decision not to send him off was wrong by the laws of the game, however I understand the problem for the referee hee and think it needs a more cerative solution. The offence was perpetratd by one man alone, it would never be a part of the teams game plan, so why should the entire team be punished by being reduced to 14 men for the entire game? For me, Red cards should be issued only for continued transgressions (effectively two yellows).
Instead I would suggest a Black card for offences like Gouging, spear tackles, headbutts and anything else more dangerous than the usual fisticuffs. The card would result in a 10 minute sin bin period just like a yellow but crucially would also bar the player in question from returning to the game, effectively forcing a substitution. That gets rid of the offending player without hurting the team, which would take a huge weight off the referee's mind when making these decisions (which is why only a yellow was awarded in this case), it also reduces the impact on the match if theref is wrong. Anyone given a black card is automatically cited and the process goes on from there.
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interesting read....
http://www.sport24.co.za/Content/Rugby/LionsinSA/954/94584a7e6a4e4e43a2b4db4dd9d8f42a//Lions_legend_Pick_Br%C3%BCssow
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Schalk Burger has been found guilty of his offence and rightly so! What is not right is how the 'press' are trying to make him the villain because the British & Irish Lions lost the test series. We have seen lengthy bans recently handed out to Alan Quinlan and Nick Best for eye gouging with no where near the outrage shown. The press need their escape goat and Schalk is it!!
One could argue that Brian O'Driscall should have been cited for his off the ball challenge on Danie Rossouw that ultimately lead to him going off as well. Could BOD not be blamed for his actions in ultimately adding to a number of contributing factors that led to the British and Irish Lions losing the test match and ultimately the test series?
The press love to have their moan as to why they lost and need an outlet to voice their displeasure. The Lions lost because they simply were not good enough on the day. Their opening games were against weak opposition and the Lions were built up to be bigger than they really were. Realistically, most fixtures where against weaker opposition. Of the two side where reasonably good siders were put out against the Lions, they only just won (Cheetahs and Western Province). I'd argue that the blinkers were on very early on and expectations set so high by past players and press that now that they have failed the knives are out. If you ask me you need not look no further than your own doorstep.
The rugby media are now only starting to wake up to what most rugby fans in South Africa have known for a long time - that Peter de Villiars is not a National Coach/ Manager of quality. He is certainly no Jake White and his appointment is political at best.
More importantly, what does this South African side have to achieve in the rugby community to be considered one of the great sides of their era? If this was a New Zealand side we would be hearing how fantastic or unbeatable they are!
It is sad reading news reports based on what "if" scenarios - You could learn from Ian "Geech" McGeecan in his post match interview that you play to the referee and the conditions. The fact Schalk was not sent off in the 1st minute is neither here, nor there. Its how you react to what is in front of you on the park at any given time or circumstance that determines who is 'victor' and who is the 'loser'. Had the Lions done this they would have one the test match on the day.
To the British & Irish Lions we salute you for a great test series and look forward to next weekends game with excitement and not to mention future Lions Tours.
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Concerning Botha...the man has never intended to injure influencial players in the ruck before has he!
FFS youtube is full of this thugs handywork...Phil Waugh certainly remembers it....surely its too much of a coincidence!
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ctmanbok - 07902949251 see u their cheers to the victor!! Anyway been online for hours now, got to go and feed my baby daughter again, take care Mate TTFN
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Joost1e - you are clearly as much of an idiot as your national coach - I love your pain..ooh big man don't make me quake in my boots!
Anyway....it was a tough test as it should have been and I think that if you could read properly you would see that on the whole people feel the ref had a good game. However, gouging, which it clearly was, in unacceptable, big hits - fine, and I agree that Botha was a bit unlucky as it was 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other but putting your hands in someones eyes is outrageous. I was a big fan of SB, havinf played England schools against him he was an awesom guy on and off the field but that was just wrong. If the type of rugby you like to see involves that type of action then you are the type of rugby fan and person that the rest of us would rather not have associated to our sport.
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Cheers Flytaff...will sms you my details.
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What a shame, that all the BIL`s is shouting blue murder and complain about injustice and unfairness. BURGER GOT WHAT HE DESERVED!!!!! OK!!!
What about your beloved Lion teams unfair play? Its always the Bokke that will be the sinners and never the British. Yep same old story, no Bok can play fair and your players are angels and gentlemen! Grow up, this game is called rugby, in other words tough, and Schalk made all Bok supporters angry with his eye gouging. But guess what, he got an eight week ban. In other words guilty as charged, where as quite a few players from the Lions got away clean. No one moaned about it, so please LET ME ENJOY ANOTHER DRINK WITH THE VICTORIOUS BOKS IN MIND!!!!
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If De Villiers publicly is willing to defend this behaviour, he too should be cited, and banned for a considerable period of time - if not suffering a career ban: totally unacceptable, and tells us a lot about the SA mentality.
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Shame on you Peter de Villiers
It seems to me that if you pull on a Lions shirt, you are no longer seen as a fellow sportsman and Rugby player but an object to be systematically targeted and taken out of the game. The last few Lions tours have been the same choreography - the warm up games and the big hits and frankly anything goes in the Southern Hemisphere and its win at any cost against the Lions.
Who can blame parents turning their children against this sort of sport? Even Cage Fighting rules against eye-gouging. Rugby was never intended to be a game of lethal combat and that is why we have fastidious rules designed to prevent serious injury. But unfortunately referees when faced with the big important decisions prove to be feeble.
World Champions have a responsibility to lead by example and what does this say to and about SA society, that it must be so infected by violence that it sees it as perfectly ok for its sportsmen to seek to 'take out' a fellow sportsman.
South African Rugby will never earn my respect playing this way and I wont watch the final game. The Lions will rightly feel incensed at the treatment they have received and I hope that this does not lead to retribution - violence only leads to more violence.
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Rugby needs to get its house in order after such a high profile incident. Peter de Villiers should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute for his comments and action taken against him.
Rugby has always had a reputation for being hard but fair, in the main, but this incident and the comments that followed from de Villiers are an absolute disgrace.
I accept that, when the Lions visit South Africa, they have to knock them out to get a draw (to borrow a phrase from boxing), but not punishing conduct like this and then having to listen to a coach condone it is well beyond what is decent or reasonable.
Win and win fair, or don't play the game.
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Joost1e- I presume you're living in the UK as you're commenting on a BBC website. Thought so. South Africa what a great country and nation- funny how so many come over to the UK to live.
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#279 akaRugbyFan
Great post. You're right regarding the Alan Quinlan 'incident', the Munster and Leinster management lept to his defence and Paul O'Connell waded in with his 'Qiuno's a Great Bloke' speech.
In 2005 Tana Umaga was the villain for his spear tackle on Brian (I wonder how Danie Roussouw is doing) O'Driscoll although I think the press post mortem pinned most of the blame for losing on Sir Clive Woodward - helped by some of the players.
The Lions are a fantastic side and I get really excited about the tours but the last few tours have been turned into thoroughly negative affairs because the Lions lose.
As you say, great rugby on the pitch but the blame culture that's erupted is just not rugby and the players have got to learn to grow up.
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#284 bokkoors
Less of the self pity - it was the same for New Zealand in 2005.... remember the 'spear tackle'?
Oh, and Australia got it too in 2001.
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I think all this hype is unjustified , I think the lions management require little justifications for there losses. Let me show you some examples of what citings were missed and how the Brittish media especially like to forget to portray a diffrent picture.
Brian ODriscol flies in, from an offside position, with a swinging-arm, head high tackle on Dannie Rossouw, concussing Rossouw.
Law10.4 (e) states: Dangerous tackling, A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously.
A player must not tackle (or try to tackle) an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. A tackle around the opponents neck or head is dangerous play.
A stiff-arm tackle is dangerous play. A player makes a stiff-arm tackle when using a stiffarm to strike an opponent.
Andrew Sheridan maliciously makes contact with the groin area of Andries Bekker.
Law 10.4 (a) states: A player must not strike an opponent with the fist or arm, including the elbow, shoulder, head or knee(s).
Law 10.4 (l) states: Acts contrary to good sportsmanship, A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.
Ronan OGara makes no attemp to go for the ball in tackling Fourie Du Preez in the air, causing Du Preez to spin around, falling dangerously to the ground
Law10.4 (e) states: A player must not tackle an opponent whose feet are off the ground.
Law 10.4 (h) states: A player must not tackle nor tap, push or pull the foot or feet of an apponent jumping for the ball in a lineout or in open play.
In light of recent events, using a Schalk Burger example to argue my point probably isnt the best idea right now, but I do feel it justifies what Im arguing. Below is a clip of the mid air tackle from Burger during the Springboks VS Samoa game in the 2007 IRB Rugby World Cup in France.
Schalk Burger initially got a 4 week ban for this, a tackle which I feel is less dangerous than the one Ronan OGara performed on Fourie Du Preez at the weekend, as the Samoan player had no chance of landing on his head/neck.
The fact is SA are hard on the field and yes they do make mistakes However the Lions are no saints and instead of Harping on about the bans that Burger and Botha got feel very lucky for the ones you never received for the hit to bekkers groin from Sheridan and the blatant shoulder barge from Odriscall that has left Dannie Rossouw out of Action for a few weeks. Please try do fair articles about unfair play for both sides.
ZandbergJansensSon
Sport is hard at the top
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I have heard that Olivier and Fourie are going to be the center pairing on Saturday - Now I can see a big score on the cards!
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Another day, but the same old words. I suppose however that trying to move on and end this blah,blah,blah is like Gordon Brown resigning !!
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The failure of the referee to deal properly with the incident simply reflects the different approach to discipline that exists around the world. Lets face it the Four Home Unions have to a great extent cleaned up there act since the advent of professionalism, but that isn't to say that some thuggery and unacceptable behaviour doesn't still go on. We have no right to think ourselves beyond reproach.
In speaking to a former French A International recently, I said that I was suprised by the number of major set toos there were within twenty minutes of the start of each game below the top 14. He replied that he felt France has still not bitten the bullet regarding some aspects of behaviour and that some referees just didn't take there responsibilities seriously enough., Twice over here, once in the match between Clermont and Toulouse last year at Toulouse, the whole of the Toulouse back row were given a major seeing to by the Clermont pack. What action did the referee take, he straightened up his jumper and blatantly ignored all of it. But he looked good nice and clean and very well turned out. This year in the first 20 minutes of the French Championship final there was blatant infringing from both sides with at least two incidents deserving a minimum yellow card, action taken none.
To lay the blame at the hands of the Springboks for all the dirty play that goes in is a none starter. Some of the greatest players in the world have come from that part of the world, the sight of Danny Gerber stuffing even the great Phillippe Sella is a memory I will guard forever.
The IRB have been put in place to run the game, that means sort out the discipline and sort out the referees. They have a responsibility above and beyond making money. The quicker they clean the game up then the more likely it is that more youngsters will come into the game for the right reasons. To play a great open athletic and physical game within the law and with a total respect for opponents no matter what creed or colour.
Lets face it we always get back to petty nationalism, but mutual respect is far more important.
P de L
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Burger's gouge was deliberate and deserved a red card.
The SA coach's attempt to justify it was a disgrace.
The committee's ban of only 8 weeks was weak.
If this becomes the norm - we'll get a lot more gouging in the game, more's the pity.
End of.
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Well done, a very good article. My view on the matter being he has got off very lightly. Where is the consistency of penalty from the citing comission?
SA image tarnished in my book. In the past hard but fair was a real badge of honour for the boks. This is no longer the case, now it's a cynical win at all costs mentality has emergeing. Don't get me wrong, to win is the goal in sport, it's all in the manner of achieving this.
Agree PDV is a joke, the ballet comments may well be his downfall in the fall out from this incident.
I have a theory: SA insurance policy... The game was perceived as lost at half time. Solution: Cause as much injury damage as possible & leave it all to play for in the 3rd test giving themselves a weakened & tired team to play. Now I'm being cynical.
Yes I believe several Lions should have got a yellow for foul play, but why? No protection from the ref (who was shocking), intimidation , both legal & illegal from the boks, what do you do? You fight fire with fire.
Sport does go to the edge, but what I saw on this tour took the step beyond.
However, that said the boks were beautiful to watch when the ball was moved. The tries superb. Something just niggles me about the means to get to that beautiful stage.
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Out of interest, how many South Africans required hospital treatment after the game ?
And how long before Schalk Burger is headhunted (pun intended) by a Northern Hemisphere team ?
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288.... conwayconman - some of my best mates in South Africa are Brits...should we start making comments about the number of Brits living in South Africa or have you forgotten your history.
Secondly, not all South Africans living in the UK decided to move here because of the problems we have in SA. Many of us line myself have been transferred to the UK by our companies..in fact the South African company i work for employ 18,000 people in the UK alone.
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If you prepared to play dirty at that level or push buttons expect reactions and let me say this-what Burger did does justify a supension- and of some length , however thats not in our hands - but for the lions players were you watching the same game or you guys just sour loosers.
O'driscal and Sheridan ARE VERY VERY LUCKY to not of been cited and banned themselves. These things always have a way of evening themselves out.... so lets hope the 3-0 whitewash that will happen wont scar the lions to badly.
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Conway man seems you forgot what the topic really is about , has your intellect eluded you or are you that biased? As for us SAFFAS being in the UK - the seeds of your ancestors in our countries so many years ago allows some of us to be here for ancestral or in my case Passport reasons .... stick to Rugby chats and not Xenophobic remarks!!!!
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Too many comments here about who won and who lost and whether the result was fair. What is important is that if you intentionally go after someone's eyes during a game (and after viewing the footage there is little doubt there was intention) you should not be on the field. There is no excuse for that. We are talking about potentially blinding someone here. How can the price of a victory be worth that?
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we all know that PDV is making a fool of himself. we all agree that SB acted in a way that is not acceptable in this amazing game called rugby. hopefully people realize that most people sometimes act out of nature and make mistakes. i am sure that SB made a real serious, but silly mistake. he will pay for it. a 8 week ban is hard enough on any rugby player....imagine your employer told you that you are fired for 8 weeks for watching porn online or something like that?
the only problem i have as a south african and springbok fan is that fact that the british and irish lion staff and coaches, and players, have not even had the decency to take the series loss on the chin and say congrats! i have seen many great captains or coaches say wonderful speeches after losing very important matches, praising the oponents...but the current B&I Lions management and players obviously dont have it in them.....
at least, i have heard from many B&I Lion supporters, who have been fantastic in defeat. That is part of the game, sometimes we win, sometimes we lose....i still remember the 1997 series loss...i think we should have and could have won all those games....but we did not, and i accepted it. it sucked, but life goes on...the B&I Lions in 1997 played a better tactical game that the Springboks....
I hope to see some congrats on this website soon......
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288 (& 299) conwayconman.
Well said ctmanbok. There have been too many derogatory remarks about why South Africans are in the U.K. On another debate the question was asked why so many live in "hovels" in London.
You will find that many youngsters come to work in the UK and broaden their horizons...something the British chavs seem to need.
Don't forget the U.K. couldn't function without all its immigrants and investment from S.A. plus gold and diamonds are everywhere.
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I clicked on the BBC story: "Bok Coach backs down Over Burger" and clicked in the video interview expecting an apology. The title is rubbish!!! He does not back down at all rather he starts ranting about ballet!!
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Lots of postings about other foul play incidents and citings being missed: that makes this one right, does it? All foul play and cheating is unaccepatble, but an attempt to scrape someone's eyes...............
Life bans for de Villiers and Burger. I would 'do' Burger for assault and expect a serious response to a criminal offence..
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304... welshwi_za_rd - it's the very gold and diamonds that kick started the Boer war as the Brits decided the Boers are not allowed such riches....it could only belong to the Empire and had to be brought back to England :)
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reading from all these comments, it is very clear that DaveParade is a real bad loser....all i can say is "at least try to come accross as a good loser...take it on the chin mate....don't cry....the series is over....the Springboks won"
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Bryn, I note you have left 'punching in the groin' off of the worst offences in rugby - would like to hear a comment/blog about Sheridan's behaviour? Seems to be a lack of will on the part of Lion's supporters, journalists and management to comment on that act?
Burger was caught, carded, cited and suspended - his coach not gracious in putting his hand up to admit guilt - agreed! The Italian player cited on the weekend received the same suspension as Burger - seems to be equal treatment to me?
Drop the topic already - eye-gouging is not in the spirit of the game, but it happens and players will continue to use dirty play, whatever the technique. The fact remains, the series is at 2-0 and we all hope to see another fine display of rugby on Saturday. Rest assured all you whiners, there will be more dirty play and just hope the player(s) gets punished, unlike your man Sheridan!!
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What about O'Driscalls tackle on Rossouw , and for the record - Jean De Villiers was injured in the game for reasons unexplained , Rossouw out for a few weeks cause of BODS so called tackle and bekker is out - wonder if Sheridan has had anything to do with that???
To smack a bloke in the NADS or shoulder charge a man to the extent he cant even stand-And by the way it does cause brain some damage or eye gauging whats the diffrence - they all not acceptable forms of behaviour.
Once again access all the facts before judging others.
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Burger's actions were disgusting, and I certainly agree with all the above regarding this incident.
While his return after just 10mins obviously had an impact on the result, I do feel that this should be less of an issue. We wanted to beat the boks fair and square, not have to rely on a red card win it for us. The boks subsequently played their part in a fantastic game of rugby, which they deserved to win despite some heroic efforts from the lions.
As for the other incidents, I think we gave as good as we got (thinking of O'Driscoll's hit among others), and the injury toll from both sides reflects the physicality of this match.
Hopefully we will still be able to put out a competitive team on saturday, and we can now look forward to future tours confident that the lions can compete against the best in the professional era.
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to # 306... I have yet to read ONE comment one here supporting Burgers actions. What the Saffers are saying is: TAKE OFF THE BLINKERS... simple really. The Lions are certainly not innocent themselves.
Burger has tarnished his reputation, by the SA Supporters as well. He has got punished for it, and lost alot of credibility... end of story, get over it!!
Why is it that in 120 odd years of SA / AB rugby that we never end up taking cheap shots at each other. But a world cup final and a Lions test cause so much bitterness and hatred...
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What bugs me most about this is that it seems South Africans can only comment on the Burger incident by referring to an incident by a Lions player.
Can we keep to topic please....
As a lock who's played for 25 years I've had more than my fair share of on field skirmishes going toe-to-toe with opponents on occasion, but I've never walked off a field where I couldn't look my opponent square in the eye because I had committed an act that could have seriously damaged them or taken advantage of a defenceless player.
Schalk Burger deliberately stuck his fingers in Luke Fitzgeralds eyes, and for this he (or any other player willing to take this kind of action on a rugby field) deserved a straight Red card. There is no argument about this, it was caught clearly on camera.
Let me also cleary state that if it was committed by an Irish or Lions player I would be equally disgusted and expect them to be punished to the full letter of the law also.
But what is far more concerning is that in the same weekend you have two world class player banned for this foul play, so in criticising Perisse or Burger the main failing is by the IRB who are not directing disciplinary panels to punish players who gouge to such an extent that it completely discourages them or any other player from even attempting something similar.
The penalties have to be much more signficant to stop this type of cowardice than they currently are, does anyone really think that an eight week ban will stop a player who could stoop this low from doing something similar?
By setting the punhishment so low in these high profile cases they are also opening up disciplinary committees across the rugby world to appeals by players caught doing similar to reduced almost insignificant punishments.
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I don't normally have much sympathy for a referee but I do have some sympathy for Bryce Lawrence.
The referee or the linesmen have to be absolutely 100% sure when taking a decision like that. In deciding on a red card, they would have effectively ended the game as a contest as, by sending Burger off, the game would be over for the Springboks and the series levelled.
That is no small matter to decide.
You would have to be absolutely certain when taking a decision such as that and I am sure that we would all expect the referee to only give a red card (and finish the game off) if he was totally certain.
Lawrence was clearly 90-95% sure but that's just not enough.
Burger has been punished subsequently and, in my opinion, let off a little lightly. The citing commissioner is there to ensure that serious infringements are dealt with and offenders punished.
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I think most people on this blog need to be a little careful and not to be exagerate what happened and split on a nationalistic basis.
To be Nationalistic and set the scene! I am Welsh (live in England) and supported the B&I Lions. I also like to think I am as biased as any supporter while the game is going on however I like to think I have a balanced view after the game has finished.
The record books are going to indicate 2 SA wins and that can not be removed and probably in balance deserved. There are 2 clear things which would have changed these results:-
1) Penalty Converted in the 1st test by Stephen Jones and tries scored.
2) A more of a killer instinct in the 2nd test and conversion of the opportunities that we did have.
I think the games have been extremely hard and even though we lost I felt they were probably the best test matches I have seen in the last few years and I think congratulations is due to both sides.
There are a few things that have concerned me throughout the tour.
1) The management of the scrum laws. There is a definite difference in opinion in the way that the scrums are refereed in the SH and the NH. It is the IRB's responsibility to make sure that there are one set of laws and potential interpretations.
2) I don't think the rules on the tackle and the use of the arms is clear. There were a number of penalties given against both sides during the tackle. The one that was most obvious was the BOD tackle. I am not convinced that it was an illegal tackle and I am proabably looking at examples from Samoa, Fiji, Butch James as examples. But again it is up to the IRB to ensure that the interpretation of the law is consisten.
3) Burger should have been sent off. Eye gouging is just not acceptable.
4) Sheridan should have been given a yellow for his punch in the groin. No matter whether it was or wasn't seen by the officials during the game he should have been cited.
5) Phillips should have been penalised for his stamp (Rather than just told not to do it again!). But I don't have a problem with rucking if people on the wrong side.
6) It seems to me that Botha's challenge was reckless. 2 weeks ban is probably fair.
The big thing that concerns me is the differences in the way the game is referee'd at the top level compared to grass routes. Some of this will be down to the competence of the referee as the ones at the grass routes will not be as good. We are almost getting two seperate rules for the top sides and the grass routes and this worries me. This includes discipline - A player in our club got banned for 16 weeks for a punch in the groin which was seen by the official - yet Sheridan gets nothing, there was a stamp on the head and the perpertrator got 8 weeks.
We do need to make sure that we are consistent through all levels of the game and the pro's need to realise that they are role models but they are also human. When they do something seriously wrong they need to be disciplined accordingly. This will give the right impression to both the grass route players and the kids.
Sorry for the long blog! But one last comment - Rugby has always been a game where opposition supporters have taken the mickey out of each other, disagreed, agreed and got drunk together. Lets make sure we don't become kissballers and go over the top!
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Comment no. 20
"Typical Pommie crybaby response to yet another loss by the British (ahem... Irish & Welsh really) cubs. Instead of facing up to being beaten, once again, the biased British media tries to find excuses and belittle the achievement of their vanquishers by resorting to the tabloid tactics of gutter journalism. Predictably all the locals jump onto the spinwagon."
SPOT ON MATE!
Whenever a English side looses any contest, the media use any excuse.
To post no. 4 and 8...I thought for a moment that only South African players, eye - gouged players, but aparently according to your comments you have experienced this whilst playing Rugby.
So to the media, Shut Up you no saints but as ever sore losers!
You couldn't beat a side with a less man, whilst in the sin bin. You still lost.
So next game Burger wont play, try beating the Springboks...
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As an England fan and a big supporter of getting together with the celts to bring about the Lions, I am of course biased, however, after having time to calm down and think about what was another decent game of rugby for the neutral, if not for us, two incidents really stand-out for me. Burgers gouge and Sheri's punch. Both are citable offences and should be dealt with harshly, in Burger's case I don't believe a year is over the top - Fitgerald probably still can't see properly. The Botha incident, he was just clearing house. Pity it ended in an injury, but I've seen that a bunch of times and have always supported it. In and around the ruck I have no problem with this.
In terms of how you handle the rough stuff, I think this is the key. In general both teams have been put through it, it's a hard game played by hard men who have been doing this all their lives. They play right on the edge and in the heat of battle will over step the mark from time to time - note I am not condoing the two cowardly acts I outlined at the top; that is not overstepping the mark, that is flat out cheating! Not rising to that provocation and coming back stronger is the measure of a man and for the most part these two teams are made up of players with huge characters and resolve.
Having said all of this (and I don't necessarily believe that the players feel this way - nor do I) the Lions guys will even this out on the field if they feel they are being harshly dealt with and are not being afforded the same protection from the officials. This weekend should tell us how they feel!!
In closing, the best team always wins and this test series is no different!!
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O'Driscoll flying home as we speak. Maybe next time, he'll use his arms.
Great player, mind. Better than anything South Africa has ever produced.
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"it's a hard game played by hard men..."
... and Ronan O'Gara.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
308 Phill bok - read the remainder of the posts PAL!
Nothing sore here mate, you wont have seen Jostl13 initial comment that generated the debate in the first instance because the moderators had to remove it due to it's nature and the subsequent comments he made were also removed - again due their content.
If you had cast your impatient eye on the rest of the blog I had allready explained the reasoning, not prepared to stand by and allow someone to mock the severity of some of the injuries that were incured (and that is passing judgement for both parties involved as I can and have conceeded that there is no place in rugby for this type of behaviour from both teams).
What your doing is deflecting attention from the heart of the issue and that is malicious violenece in rugby - theres no place for it, and there was one SA opinion here (Unlike the majority) who was advocating it with his controversy - where are you going to fall Phill - do we need to pencil you in with the ignorant? Or can you also conceed that burger was out of order in potentialy blinding someone.
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Re my previous post - it appears I too am guilty of being a bit quick into the fray having seen one of your later posts phil bok - I was just annoyed with what had initialy been laid out by one of your compatriots.
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I have for the past hour or so been reading the lob sided comments from the lions supporters,here are my views:
A)Burger was spotted by the assisstant ref and correctly given a yellow
card as the main ref saw nothing and was relying on his assisstant,in
oppinion a fair call.
Conclusion
In the time that burger was off the lions amassed 10 points.
B)The IRB made a decision (lenient yes)but thats that no use crying about
it
C)PDV had a bad moment,made a fool of himself agree with all on that
point
D)Bakkies was a 50/50 call Sheridan was also running close to the wire
Again IRB made a decision full stop...
Finally lets be honest over the two tests,the first test the lions played well for the last 20 minutes,thanks to PDV getting too smug.
3 tries to 2 in that test.
The second test the lions had a good 1st half,their kicker was on song ours wasn't and that at 1 try all if we had got our kicks at half time we would have been more or less level.Final result 3 tries to 1.
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According to article 20.1.8 of the IRB Code of Conduct "all persons (this includes coaches) shall promote the reputation of the Game and take all possible steps to prevent it from being brought into disrepute". De Villiers refusal to condone a blantant and manifest case of foul play brings the game into disrepute and he should be sanctioned accordingly by the South African Rugby Federation.
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So much has been said about the gouging, and we all know it is wrong, but the whole point is that it does not belong in rugby. Thugs have always played the game, and have long been tolerated, but if such people want to cheat - because that's what it is - and inflict physical injury on somebody who is in no position to defend themselves then they should recieve a loooooong ban from the game. Gouging, stamping, raking, all the violent acts that can result in serious injury to a person who cannot defend themselves. Then it will soon stop and rugby can be enjoyed for the tough, physical yet skillful game it is.
If the likes of Burger want to get involved in serious pain then they should try their hand at MMA. http://www.loserscomesecond.com/
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I agree 100% that Burger should have been sent off on Saturday! And I'm a Saffa living and calling the UK home now (and proudly supporting both teams, albeit in a slightly confusing way!). What should have been a great celebration for SA has been tainted and stained by the idiotic behaviour of one has-been who should have known better. And their idiotic coach, PdV, is a complete PR disaster! Rugby at this level is professional, not some schoolgirl playground fight! And Burger was acting like a schoolgirl! (If there were a punch-up in the pub, Burger would be the only one to grab a barstool or some other weapon! Everyone else would fist-fight) These rugga guys spend their whole year striving to better themselves and their game for the sake of national pride, and one twit comes along and sets them all back a country mile! Idiot! He should be banned for good, especailly as he bring bugger-all to the game these days.
LittleRew is correct regarding the ref's interpretations, as well. There seems to be great disparity, at times, between the SH and NH decisions on the field. There were other decisions made (and NOT made) on Saturday that could have turned the game either way (Sheridans groin punch, for example should have had him sent off for 10) but overall I think it was mainly the poor performance by the refs that was the most depressing.
With everything that happened, it is ultimately the more resilient team that come through. The Boks did on Saturday what the Lions couldn't do the week before...come from behind to win it. Poor decisions affect both teams somewhat, and the Lions seem to have been short-changed this time. I just hope that the final game will be exciting to watch..clean, hard, running rugby, but somehow I dont think it will be! If the Lions lose, it'll be because of injuries, demoralisation etc. If they win, it'll be because the Boks have lost interest. So I'm not going to hold my breath. Sad really, as the game could have been a humdinger if the Lions had levelled last week.
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Removing my expensive Lions Supporter's Shirt for a moment and being objective - the problem (as with most sports) is consistency in both; the interpretation and implementation of laws from officials on/off the field of play. Referees make mistakes the same as players do and it's one of the strengths of rugby that respect for officials is maintained, unlike in the roundball equivalent, yet standards are inconsistent across the world and it's the responsibility of the IRB to address this.
The recent ELV debacle has only made the job of officals (as well as players/coaches) harder, when what is needed is clarity and consistency in areas of the game which are allowed different interpretations around the world based on TV/Sponsorship revenue and parochial interpretation. Bryn's example of the use of eye gouging in French rugby being acceptable highlights the parochial aspect and you'd have to be a football supporter not to have seen the difference over the years between Super 14 refereeing and Heineken Cup. Top Level League and International Officials across the world should be monitored/reviewed regularly by the IRB to ensure consistent interpretations. Everyone will have their view on how they want areas of the game to be officated but this is a seperate debate. The key is to ensure that an agreed consistent interpretation is applied throughtout the worldwide game and eliminate regional interpretations. The laws of the game do not need to be changed to make it better, they just need to be interpreted and applied consitently.
Back to the point - Burger should be banned and the ban should be longer. There was clearly intent to gouge which appears to have been accepted by Steve Hinds, who as stated, offered no mitigation for the offence. According to Jeff Blackett, this is at the higher end of the spectrum for disciplinery measures and as I understand it carries a minimum 12 week ban. If you listen to the inference on 'at least' in Bryce Lawrence's "I think it is at least a yellow card", it appears he wants Christophe Berdos to award a red but is bottling out of making the recommendation himself. I would hope that the IRB will review the ban and lengthen it, together with take action against Peter De Villiers for bringing the game into disrepute with his subsequent comments, irrespective of him now back tracking.
Continuing my theme of consitency - Mike Phillips who has been noteable in his condemnation should also feel himself lucky not to have received a smaller ban following the 1st Test. During a defencive phase near the Lions' Try Line, he is clearly seen on TV (in both real time and replays but as usual ignored/missed by the commentators) to place his hand over the face of a prone SA forward. Phillips roughed up the player's nose a little to make his eyes water (a common tactic) but then continued to 'rake' his fingers upwards, across the eyes and then pull off his scrum cap. According to Blackett's definition this at the very least is in the lower end of the Spectrum for making contact with the eye area and although not an outright gouge, is not inadvertent.
Players always have and always will, look to gain an advantage wherever they can and in so doing, will push the letter of the law. It's the responsibilty of the IRB to identify this and ensure that officals worldwide are trained and equipped to address it. At a time when the game is growing and being marketed worldwide (as a look at the IRB Rankings will show), the respect for referees and players is a selling point which should be enhanced not undermined. Poor management from the IRB coupled with the selfish interests of National Rugby Unions and Key Stakeholders only weakens Rugby Union as a Brand to sell and a Sport to play.
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Re: 242. extremesense:
"I was as disgusted by the Burger gouge as I was the Quinlan gouge."
I know you're just a wind-up-merchant who doesn't care or know anything about rugby, but I'll bite this time.
"There are other similarities too in the sense that management (Munster and Leinster in Quinlan's case) were quick to defend their players - in Quinlan's case, I even remember Paul O'Connell saying what a 'good bloke' he was."
Think you'll find that was Michael Chieka, the Leinster manager. Leo Cullen, the victim of the alleged 'gouge' also testified to the citing tribunal on Quinlans behalf. Their finding was that Quinlan had NOT deliberately gouged Cullen, but that he had not taken sufficient care.
So, you think that accidental is the same as deliberate? And that the managers of both teams, AND the player 'gouged' defending the accused player is the same as what happened with Burger?
In the slow-learner class are you?
Later you wrote 289 extremesense:
"#279 akaRugbyFan
Great post. You're right regarding the Alan Quinlan 'incident', the Munster and Leinster management lept to his defence and Paul O'Connell waded in with his 'Qiuno's a Great Bloke' speech."
Besides repeating yourself, what are you saying here?
279. akaRugbyFan:
"We have seen lengthy bans recently handed out to Alan Quinlan and Nick Best for eye gouging with no where near the outrage shown. The press need their escape goat and Schalk is it!!"
You mean Quinlan getting 12 weeks and Neil Best getting 18 weeks? And neither offence was considered deliberate? So, minimum 12 weeks for the lowest order of offence, 18 weeks even for an accidental. Why should the press be outraged about that? By that logic, Schalk should get 24 weeks minimum. What is he being made a scape-goat for?
Are you just arguing against yourself? Are you perhaps a not very intelligent person who just starting typing and got confused?
"One could argue that Brian O'Driscall should have been cited for his off the ball challenge on Danie Rossouw that ultimately lead to him going off as well."
Now, perhaps you are talking about some other incident. But O'Driscoll and Rossouw had to go off after a clash of heads, when Rossouw HAD THE BALL. You know, the ball? Oval thing? Can't be 'off-the-ball' when one player has the ball?
So, you just don't know what you're talking about. Bless. Run along now.
But extremesense thinks it was a "Great post." Perhaps because he is equally stupid? I don't think so, I think he just saw one thing that he agreed with and jumped in without thinking.
Of course, it makes him LOOK just as stupid as you...
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Wow, I've read most of the comments on this blog. I'm waiting for the marriage of ctmanbok and Flytaff!
I'll try not to go over too much of the same ground, but IF, the Lions had beaten a 14 man SA team, then there really would have been an opportunity for Burger to hang his head in shame at letting down his country - not for whingeimg Poms to glory in an unfair victory.
Lets hope the 3rd test is as exciting as the first two - I hear they are calling up McGeechan to play in order to make up numbers!
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What I would like to know is that if OConnel and Geech have to be accountable to the world media, why arent the officials being interviewed and questioned about their actions too? They are as much a part of the modern game as coaches and players. As far as I am aware, Andre Watson has never spoken publicly about nearly reffing England out of the 2003 WC final when it was clear to the world that it was the Aussies who were infringing in the scrum. Nor can I recall Stuart Dickenson speaking out to defend his decision in the last World Cup final when he single headedly changed the outcome of that game by disallowing an obvious try. Some come on BBC, lets here what Bryce Lawrence has to say about his decision to award the series to SA.
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You know what upsets me the most about british press? The fact that when the team loses, all other factors are emphasized...WHY? What SB did was bad but if you disect the whole game you will see that the lions were not so clean. I'm not justifying what SB did but be consistent in your reporting! One of the lions guys literally hit a bok in the groin! What you call that! If you report on all bad things, be objective at least!
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Having watched the game again yesterday, Yes Burger is an idiot and deserves all he got
But
In the second half the Lions were far from blushing virgins when it came to dishing out the dirt
Any clash between these two great rugby sides will be intense but I get the sense once again that the moaning and whingeing is typical
When the Poms win there are bus trips around London and visits to the Queen, when you lose its everybody elses fault.
For goodness sake the Lions threw it away, they had a win in their grasp but blew it. That stupid last minute tackle that give the Boks seems to be forgotten
Methinks next Saturday is going to be even more brutal
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329. At 2:46pm on 30 Jun 2009, Lambo51 wrote:
Funny boy we can't all be dougie no mates like you boyo;]
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We had a couple of people say that the Lions players are to soft and that Northern Hemisphere players are inferior to the Southern Hemisphere ones.
Nonsense again....last year for example Jamie Roberts played on another 15 minutes with a fractured skull before going off in the Wales V Australia match!!
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I am saddened by the whole affair. It is very harmful to Rugby when the Team Coach for South Africa openly suggests it was a fuss about nothing. Burger should have been sent off. An 8 week suspension is very lenient.
The Match Officials should be suspended - they failed.
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In summary:
1. The Springboks won. It hurts, but there you go - nothing will change that, so as Lions fans we should be the bigger men and applaud the win, even if we deplore some of the events included in that win.
2. Based on the game in front of them and the actual rugby played, the South African players deserved to win - mental toughness was on show, skill and physicality (!) were in evidence, two of the tries were well taken, and the winning kick was immense.
3. However, it is not the same to say that South Africa SHOULD have won - a very clear red card offence was committed by Burger, and that alone would almost certainly have changed the outcome - as a Lions fan the inevitable win would have felt slightly hollow, but I'd have taken it, if I'm honest.
4. Yes, it is possible to get into tit-for-tat arguments about Botha being unlucky to receive a ban (he was), BOD's tackling being dodgy once or twice (it was), Sheridan being worthy of citing attention (he is), or the video-ref being wrong to award one of the tries (he was) etc etc - but all of that is overshadowed by (and does not change the fact of) Burger's lowest-of-the-low, dangerous act, for which he has been inadequately punished by any standard (including the IRB's own).
5. SARU's / PdV's semi-retraction and apology - too little, too late. Sack him, for the good of a proud rugby nation, which has recently done so well in replacing a reputation for lawless violence with a reputation deserving of world champions, and now faces the undoing of all of that.
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Seriously, you Poms take the cake as the biggest pack or whingers and sore losers on the planet. Go back to soccer if you want to have a cry about the ref.
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SJBCAPE One thing the Lions did not do was throw the match away. We lost our advantage when-
1) We lost Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins and therefore lost the dominance we had in the scrum when it went uncontested.
2) We lost any cohesion and our better players when again Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins, Tommy Bowe, Jamie Roberts and BOD etc went off, similar to when your clever coach made all those changes in the first test and nearly blew it for you lot.
3) Refs interpretation-you could argue that your try was 50/50 and could of gone the other way and also that O'Gara's challege for the ball was exceptable though clumsy (he was in the air going for the ball as well)
Anyway that's rugby, that's how the ball bounces sometimes you won...hope you don't ever lose as the amount of moaning will double over night!!
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These responses by the brits are a joke, I got to see the test yesterday and it was not the same game the brits have reported. The only real dominanace occured for the lions was when the boks were down to 14 men, so stop crying. The lions have been dirty from the 1st game in Rustenberg, and try to instigate problems. They are definitley not the gentlemen. There is never as much dirty in tri nations, the northern hemisphere tries to bring di to that because they can't compete. As for coaches who are a joke, Gatland is the man that is a joke and tries to instigate issues. Just learn to play the game boys, and stop being so biased. This is not even worth responding to anymore. Wait til saturday for the crying to begin, this is only goping to be worse when its 3-0.
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Just looked at Botha's 'clearing out' of Adam Jones on YouTube.. Not at all surprised to see quite a few related videos of..... Botha 'clearing out' others.. Hmmm.. He could have a go at my garden shed - that should keep him busy for a while.
8 weeks for eye-gouging? Thought the minimum was 12? Who was on the panel: Mr and Mrs Burger and their very friendly next-door neighbours?
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tenniseveryone37 - Nonsense again, put your contacts in Mate. The only thing I would agree on is both sides were dirty, Botha, Burger, BOD, Sheridan etc and all should have been booked one way or another!!
Oh as for Saturday yeah you will win with 5 of our best players missing that would be a pretty obvious assumption to make.
By the way Gatland is twice a man than your sorry try to be coach!!
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ScarletIeu He would of missed a garden shed!!
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I agree, Flytaff - what's your team for Saturday? Mine is: Kearney, Bowe, Flutey, Roberts, Fitzgerald, Jones, Phillips, Powell (give him a shot), Williams, Croft, Shaw, O'Connell, Hayes, Rees, Sheridan. Bench: Vickery (I can't believe he will ever be as bad again), Ford, AW Jones, Wallace, Blair, Hook, Earls.
I believe Hook at his best can change a game. And he can kick. And he can cover most back positions. And he's a mate of my son. So I'm biased. Still, not the worst call in the world..
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LOL! Just read 342... But he would have landed in my compost heap next to it (and still come up smelling of roses, no doubt)..
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I speak for all of the many Lions fans I have chatted to about this when I say:
1) Of course we're upset about losing. Who wouldn't be? It was close, there were calls that could have gone differently, but at the end of it all, we lost and that's life - we can hack that.
2) We see the Burger incident (and de Villiers' ensuing behaviour / comments) as basically a separate issue - does the fact we lost make it even harder to take that Burger wasn't adequately sanctioned (and de Villiers threw petrol on the fire)? Of course it does. But we'd still be pretty appalled by Burger's actions and PdV's behaviour even if we'd won.
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eye gouging is IMO as bad as it gets on the rugby field. not only should it have been an automatic red card (no question), it should have been followed up with a suitable punishment. 8 weeks is frankly laughable. PDV has inflammed the situation with crass remarks that the SARFU are now trying to address.
i dont see how we can win the final game after losing our best players due to injury. this tour has left a very nasty taste in my mouth
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Out of interest, does anyone know who has been picked the least amount of times on tour? Not including out through injuries.. Not a test, I don't know.
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And the most starts?
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337 - got no problems with the ref on this issue, it was the touch judge's call. I just think that its time the officials were put into front of the camera and asked to justify their actions in the media.
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Well I was there, sitting in main pavillion amoung mostly Boks.
Discussion before the game was how long until Burger got a yellow.
Most after the game comments were along the lines of - well we escapoed from a game we didn't deserve to win.
Burgers actions should not dominate - what a game. Lions never got far enough ahead, and throughout the second half you could feel the Boks were stronger and gonna come through.
Genuinely heroic performance by the Lions, just not quite good enough.
Met nothing but funny, charming Boks - what a great weekend.
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PS. Boks who were gracious in victory - so everyone shut up and get a life.
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If a player is caught going for the eyes should be red carded no ifs no buts. The IRB needs to take a firm stand against ANY player sent off or cited for such offences and increase the length of the ban to at least 6 months(only way to eradicate it from the game). With regards to last Sat. Boks won end of story. Well Done
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I played for 30 years. I had a few pokes in the eye but I never even considered one to be deliberate. I accidentally got a player in the eye once I felt sick because it could have blinded him. I apologised and brought him copious amounts of beer in the club house afterwards as was the custom then. I cannot fo the life of me think how a person could do this deliberately. If it is Blatant and obviously premeditated An automatic 2 year ban if not a life ban would be appropriate.
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Well said, bionicFrankButcher and 10mangame.. I am optomistic about Saturday, though. BOD and Welsh props big losses of course, but there's still fire, pace and imagination there.. Time for everyone to put their hands up for the last game. MW said in his column that nobody wants a whitewash. Well, now's the time.
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Should have written optimistic, sorry..
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Why don't we all just move on......
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I am - read my team for Saturday above.. Think it could make it 2-1? Or fold for 3-0? (#343)
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We'll win in August as well as always and it will be the refs fault again! Just never ends! More worried about Tonga, Argentina, and Fiji in the future thasn the NH! The Wallabies, All Blacks, and Boks play tough physical games in year in, year out and we never hear crying like this.
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I am getting totally fed up with this constant idiotic behaviour from people from
SA/SH whingeing that the NH crying and lack of objectivity.
and
NH not being objective.
As doug15 says - MOVE ON!.
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Flytaf
Gatland doesn't have players anymore, and thus has to do anything to create problems!
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How the Lions expected to win scoring only one try is a mystery. Did not see the game but wherefore their attacking game?
I think the Berdos - Lawrence dialogue illustrates the potential for cross cultural communication problems. A great shame. I'm sure Berdos feels some regret he did not red card Burger but I don't fault Lawrence.
Add a second red for PDV.
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tenniseveryone37
You are kidding right? When England were the best team in the world the SH never stopped bleating and tried to stop one of their key weapons by changing the rules.
And that you don't hear the SH complain about foul play? Does that make them hard then or just plain stupid? Or maybe you just don't care enough?
Rules are in place for a reason - you break the rules then you expect someone to pay the price. Burger didn't. Trying to defend the ref by saying that it happened in the first minute of the game is a nonsense. By implication that makes a free for all viable in the first five minutes.
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Having just flown back in from watching the 1st 2 tests my perspective is this, Burger should have been red carded and received a ban of at least 6 months - gouging is the most cowardly offence in rugby!
To comment on the Bok fans and hospitality - they were magnificent particuarly in Durban after the game - the true Bok rugby supporters were reserved and dignified in victory and enjoyed sharing the Lions party once they had enjoyed their victory, there were a few Bok fans that were pathetic (a bit like Jooste1 on this thread), they could only come up with 1-0,1-0 and 2-0, 2-0 as a response to any Lions singing.
It's been a great tour apart from a Lions win, I hope the patched up Lions can produce anohter great performance on Saturday - the true Bok rugby fans already respect the Lions and they will alos be hoping for another great spectacle on Saturday.
The general feeling was that PDV is patently not up to the job and is only in it because of his skin colour - he will be gone by the end of the Tri Nations!
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I'm mildly surprised that Berdos didn't completely misunderstand Lawrence and awarded Fitzgerald a yellow card for attacking the tips of Burger's fingers with his eyeballs. I'm sur PDV considered saying as such when defending Burger's honour after the match.
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As a follower of rugby for over 50 years, sadly, I don't think it will be too long before an international player is made a paraplegic or even killed by "professional" fouls. The authorities must stop the game, use TV replays and not shirk from sending a player off even in the first 60 seconds of a match.
If they don't they will will share responsbility along with the "honest and talented" thugs for a terrible incident that's just waiting to happen.
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What Berger did was wrong in a great number of ways.
Least of all being the replays that we could all see, but not the referee.
In that case, with something as serious as gouging, can the video ref not be charged with making a decision whilst berger had a breather? I know it takes away the power of the ref, but it could help stop people thinking they can get away with this....
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I don't condone gouging or any of the other infringements not cited in a tough game. But it seems the Lions and a lot of their supporters are greatly indebted to Burger for giving them the opportunity to do what they do better than play rugby - whine.
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I think we're all agreed:
* Burger's actions were inexcusable and eight weeks is too light a sentence.
* De Villiers should be made to apologise for his pathetic defence of an indefensible act
* The Lions have lost the series. Live with it.
* While Geech is a great coach, some of his selections have been flawed.
* Without BOD and the two good props, we're going to get spanked on Saturday.
* If Ronan O'Gara never plays rugby again, it will be too soon.
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fabuniquemembername - I was with you up to the last point. ROG may have been responsible for the final nail in the coffin, and may not have exactly excelled, but that doesn't make him the sole villain of the piece. Collective responsibility and all that.
Although I'll admit to making donkey noises at my TV when he gave away that fateful penalty.
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fabuniquemembername - I agree with everything you said, except one point. We may not win on Saturday, but I think we'll see the most committed performance by the BIL of the whole tour and we won't be spanked. Yes, we'll miss BOD, AJ and GJ badly, but there is enough grunt and class left to give the Boks a really good game. Will the Boks miss Burger and Botha? Botha more so. Bekker is no Botha (however big he is) and Brussow is a great 'fetcher'. Put Martyn Williams in - that'll be a good contest. A spanking? No. Hopefully...
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ScarletIeu: I really hope you're right, mate, but I think the fight may have gone out of this squad. They're looking to get on that plane.
With those two props out, the Boks will probably edge the scrum, and without BOD's attacking prowess and defensive brain out wide, I don't think we'll finish within 15. And any more than 15 is - officially - a spanking. :-(
And I think Brussow is a good early tip for man of the match. The kid can play.
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Rugbohper
You have a short memory my friend, what about the Brad Thorn tackle (??) on John Smit last July, there was no end of whining from SA after that and lets be realistic here the Burger incident is every bit a unsavoury as that.
No one is complaining on the result, the Boks showed they are a canny outfit but the game could do without some of the unsavoury stuff and as for gouging there's just no place for it at any level in rugby....
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fab - what do think of a Roberts/D'Arcy pairing? Could be good.. Could Sheridan and say Hayes or Phil 'last chance saloon' Vickery pull through?
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D'Arcy? Surely not - Flutey is the only other guy out there with the weapons to break open the Boks. D'Arcy hasn't played well at the very top level for some time.
And I think Sheridan is a flat-track bully who won't like it if things get tough - he enjoys playing Australia, but so does every prop. Hayes looks like Tarzan but plays like Jane and Vickery is yesterday's man. "The Beast" isn't actually that good a scrummager - he's certainly not experienced - yet he wiped the floor with Vickery. He should have retired after the World Cup.
Optimistic, aren't I?
P.S. I'm not sure Roberts will be fit for the game. Then we're REALLY in trouble. Player of the tour?
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The 8 week ban Burger received is a joke and a travesty. I challenge Schalk Burger to voluntarily increase his ban to the minimum 12 weeks.
http://therugbyunion.blogspot.com/
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No arguments on that one, fab.. Bowe started the tour well, and Byrne.. But Roberts major, major threat every game he's played..
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Biggest disappointment of the tour? Shane Williams. Last year he took the Boks apart - scored 2 great individual tries. This year? A human tackle bag. He hasn't become an average player overnight, being a proud Welshman I hope it's just a dip in form and roll on the Autumn series..
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Fluety Roberts partnership for me - Darcy cannot play 13 - I don't understand why, as centres should be able to play in both berths - but Fluety is a bit more creative and should make for a decent replacement for BOD with Roberts moving to 13 and Fluety at 12. Lets hope that both sets of players keep there tempers in check and let the (hopefully high) standard of rugby be the dominating feature after the game.
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If you watch the games O'Driscoll and Roberts have been constantly interchanging with O'Driscoll often slotting in to the 12 berth to give Roberts room wide so either Darcy or Flutey could slot in.
As for the prop situation if John Hayes plays we will be running back in the scrum faster than a springbok on speed, Vickery has to be given another chance.
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343. At 4:01pm on 30 Jun 2009, ScarletIeu
Sorry Mate I was offline there for awhile, the team you picked looks about right.
Kearney, Bowe, Flutey, Roberts, Fitzgerald, Jones, Phillips, Powell (give him a shot), Williams, Croft, Shaw, O'Connell, Hayes, Rees, Sheridan. Bench: Vickery (I can't believe he will ever be as bad again), Ford, AW Jones, Wallace, Blair, Hook, Earls.
tenniseveryone37 stp being a wum!!
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Joost1e your the biggest wum on here get a life
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SARU's mismanagement of events since "Schalke's Gouge" has made this by now into more than merely a dangerous piece of off-the-ball action by a player of the old brigade. In particular, PdeV's post-match comments and his subsequent head-stand apology forced by SARU make this now a matter of profile for the country's game as a whole - in which regard, in front of today's fee-paying, global-TV, rugby audience of millions, there is a lot more at stake than whether or not the ref. got the colour of the card right - starting in Saturday's final match.
PdeVs original (and honest, very honest) comments allowed a sad glimpse of the beat-em-up message that still goes unchallenged as a starting-point for Bok team-talks. In consequence, SARU is now undoubtedly on-watch in front of the IRB for their ability to keep the national game relevant to the game outside of RSA. Likely message to SARU:
Its been clearly demonstrated that your Boks know how to win by playing poor referees for fools (match 1) and youve certainly shown that your Boks can still win big matches by injuring the other side off the field (match 2); now, please, please prove that OUR world champions still know how to win within the spirit as well as the letter of the Laws of the Game of Rugby - as you declared just last Monday Mr. Hoskins.
Of course, the IRB is on-the-spot as well for its ability to provide top-notch refereeing for top-class games. Yes, the players have to run their own game and there is certainly a limit to what any ref. can do but that limit has been nowhere near approached in the first two Boks/Lions games of this tour and the IRB now has a lot at stake as well in Saturdays match.
Needless to say, current Boks players have to deliver for their union and their country. But the world will be watching. Youre certainly good enough to win against this touring Lions side without cheating everyone knows that. The question to you is Can you?(because you havent managed it so far).
Finally, the Lions. Actually, the one party to this ****-up who dont have a lot left to prove. Magnificent but only just. You came with the highest of standards and have just about managed to keep to them under provocation. Just dont lose it now. Prove not only that youve been plenty good enough to beat South Africa in the right way if still needing a good rub to the green to actually do so but that theres been at least one team on the pitch each week classy enough to know how to lose in the right way as well (which as we all know, is by far the more difficult task).
Good luck Lions. Play up Boks.
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Within Rugby Union as in all contact sports there are several ways to hurt someone (if that's your intention) within the rules. Therefore by Burger going for such a cowardly action he should have been clearly reprimanded by the refereed initially and then the IRB. There need to be set parameters if its against the rules then it needs a set ban of I would say atleast 12 weeks possibly more so the clubs and country will see the loss too. So too for players like Alan Quinaln we showed that we wouldn't tolerate such behaviour by him being dropped.
Lastly does anyone else feel slightly synical about the fact that Burger was brought into the team as a possible enforcer to do as much damage as possible in as short a time as possible in or outside the rules!
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If you can't take the truth, remove it!
Surprise, surprise! As the trumped up outrage continues, my previous comment was quashed for allegedly "breaking the house rules." No explanation in the email as which rule it actually transgressed. Ha! Thanks for proving my point about British media bias.
I will attempt to repost my comments, removing any word that could possibly be construed to offend you sensitive British souls:
If you can't beat them, vilify them!
Typical [informal term for a British person of unknown origin; said by some to be short for pomegranate] [a person, esp. a child, who sheds tears frequently or readily] response to yet another loss by the British (ahem... Irish & Welsh really) [the young of a fox, bear, lion, or other carnivorous mammal]. Instead of facing up to being beaten, once again, the biased British media tries to find excuses and belittle the achievement of their vanquishers by resorting to the tabloid tactics of gutter journalism. Predictably all the locals jump onto the spinwagon.
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@Erico1977
Having read & responded to my comment, do you think my comment warranted being purged? I'm sure you'll agree that it didn't, which must also lead you to suspect that it was only removed because it broke the nice drumbeat of righteous indignation that this site is trying to cultivate. Does this not prove my point re. bias?
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in response to Dave (DaveParade) - glad to see that you read my previous blog too. as a very proud south african and springbok fan, i totaly agree with all the comments about the un-sportmanship-like behaviour of Burger. To be honest, i have always thought the guys was a great rugby player, but a dirty player that results in too many penalties. I believe we have better and more effective flankers in SA. he deserves his 8 weeks, and probably should have received a 12 to 16 week ban. to be honest, his actions were stupid.
to address my other point, even on this forum, and most other forums, i have not seen many B&I lions fans that congratulated the boks for winning this series. It was a bloody hard series. The B&I Lions have a fantastic touring party (except for the coach, etc...) and it is always an honour playing agains the Lions. I am just dissapointed to see that all supporters are looking for excuses why they lost....the facts are that you played agains the world champs who showed BMT and beat the Lions on both occasions. i will even put money on winning this weekend. Like most of hte people on this blog i grew up playing rugby since i was 6. I remember watching the lions in the 1980 tour...i was a young child. I was raised to always shake hands with the opponents and congratulate them, winning or losing....tell the Lions coach to start doing the same...stop whining and complaining. we all agree on a few of things...the SA coach is a dump arrogant nut, burger acted out of place, and the boks won this series fair and square!
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If Burger had been red carded at the beginning of the match, would the Lions have been satisfied with a win? He got 8 weeks as punishment after the game!! How many players get 8 weeks suspension? I think this is punishment enough.
Is this whinging really all about the poms wanting burger to get 12 years suspension, instead of 8 weeks, or is everyone just sore about losing again? If anything, his actions should have helped your cause. Fitzgerald was fine, and the poms got to play against 14 men for 10 minutes.
If you want to blame someone for losing again, blame O'Gara. He gave away the penalty in the last minute. Didnt really have a chance of a series victory against the inform World Champions did you?
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why are these players not banned for twelve months then if they reoffend
with the same offence again ban them for life gouging can so easy turn to blindess
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Burger was palbably guilty and did deserve a red card. No argument from this avid Springbok fan.But the thing that surprised me was that the Lions gave the impression that they would have been perfectly content with a victory over a 14-man team. Hardly a vote of self-confidence and indicative of more than a hint of desperation. Which is strange from a professional team that has impressed with its skill and aggression. i fear the worst for Saturday if this is their attitude.
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I agree that Schalk should be banned for the act he performed. Lets' not harp on about it though comparing it to Neil Best's 12 week ban. Judges in the law courts don't all sentence criminals all for the exact times. It varies. Schalk is lucky. I do fid it unbelievable that O'Driscoll has said that he is repulsed by this incident. Did anyone here the comments from the LIONS commentators (Dewi Morris) in particular thought the game almost condoning the "Legal or not legal tactics" that the lions were employing during the later part of the game? I think they should (sky commentators) pulled up for almost saying it's OK to do the odd illegal thing during a game. Come on guys. You win some you lose some. It's the game of rugby. Let's face it the Boks are superior and "World Champions" Before the tests started the Lions and supporters were harping on about how great this team were and demolishing every "thrown together" or under strength provincial team so far. It's pretty much like saying lets get the cream of the crop from NZ, OZ, SA and heck lets throw in the Pumas. Brilliant team and then getting them to play the likes of some of the local teams in the UK, Wales, Scotland & Ireland. They day of the lions being a great touring team has gone. They were brilliant but they have lost their way in tours of late. The last good one being '97. Come on Lions supporters rubbed it for 12 years let your opposition enjoy and maybe rub it in for a while! Bokke!
Stop crying......
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I would just like to nail one thing that has become apparent from following this blog and its this: so many of you have accused the Lions supporters of crying, whinging and so on....we should just accept all and shut up, say well done boks and then we will be real men, I suppose. The issue now is: violence, illegal "challenges", plus coaches seeming to condone such behaviour, is OK, or do we, and the rugby authorities stand up and say enough is enough. Perhaps some of you think BOD is a whinging crybaby for criticising PDV today. Perhaps you would like to voice that criticism to his face on a rugby field? If you believe in a game of rugby that allows the kind of rough stuff we have seen in the last game, then maybe you should go off and start another game called K1-Rugby, and have a fully equipped portable hospital by the edge of the playing field? But if you have any shred of regard for the game in the wider context (yes I know its a stretch) then you could start by respecting the right of those who object to things like eye gouging becoming "part of the game", to actually say so.
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Biltongpete
There is a huge difference between what Dewi Morris said and what berger did... I agree he should be removed but that is a different topic altogether.
The boks did deserve to win, and congratulations to them (I'm sure they'll feel better for that)but I am concerned we could just carry on the NH/SH arguements until we are all blue in the face - the IRB needs to pull its finger out and show some leadership rather than sitting on its hands
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@pascot re. 391
"...and have a fully equipped portable hospital by the edge of the playing field?"
OMG, what a drama queen. Way to keep escalating this contrived issue. Keep swigging on the Kool-aid, it's a great way to avoid the bitter taste of defeat.
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Bryn, you mentioned Perpignan's Romanian hooker Marius Tincu was banned for 18 weeks after a match against Welsh region the Ospreys. I was at that match and the incident was right in front of me.
As they rose from the scrum Paul James held the offending finger in one hand and punched the jaw of the guy who it belonged to - Tincu. The match was stopped for a full 5 minutes whilst Tincu recovered from being flat out.
Both incidents took place in front of the referee - no official punishment was given except for the later citing. I do not believe that referees are quick to take action on gauging and applaud Bryce Lawrence for what he did in the first 30 seconds of a major test. If no official action is taken then players will take retribution - even if they come off the bench to do it.
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yebogo: Ha Ha, when you have no arguement throw in a bit of name calling, "drama queen", "whinger", or whatever....not serious mate, not a real debate. If you can't do better....don't bother.....Do you have any serious response, by the way?
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My response is to Pascot - mate, you clearly are whigning....we all agree that what burger did was wrong. no saffer or springbok supporter is supporting him or what he did....we all believe that the IRB should take a harsher stand against these kind of things....
the problem i have with bloggers like you is that cannot look beyond that incident, and you will use that as the reason why the Lions did not win.....at the end of the day mate, the game was played 15 on 15, as it should be. that is the real measure of a game...not 14 on 15...which is not fair.....what burger did was wrong, but no one got hurt. no one cried but for a few B&I Lions supporters...like yourself.....and in the end the Springboks won. As mentioned, blame O'Gara for losing the match. Blame BoD for playing a rough game, and for going in with a stiff arm for a tackle....but i think you are incapable of doing so....you are truly a sore loser mate. As our dump coach said it best..."take it up the chin" mate.......
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yebogogogo did your mummy leave you in your pram to throw your toys because guess what your still doing it. Calm down have some milk and cookies.
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Hi phil bok, you are just another name caller and you confirm my argument. Its not about one incident, its about a systematic approach and the standards that are set and maintained by national rugby teams and their coaches , and backed up (or not) by the powers that be. The only thing you are right about is that SA won. But if you win due to the injuring of other players and bad refereeing decisions: this is wrong. If you can't grasp the idea and cant get beyond slapping a label on somebody then you make no real contribution.
And now having said my piece (thanks to the kind auspices of the BBC and this blog)excuse me but I am going to get on with some work.
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phil-bok There are plenty of Brit bloggers on here that have reasonable debate just scroll up and find them.
I'm sure you would agree that even though you won the circumstances for your victory could of been better.
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First of all, Pascot, you just proved my point. you cannot look beyond the incident. to sum it up....the Lions played against 14 men for 10 minutes, scored 10 points....that is what the Lions got as a result of burger's mistake....but unfortunately the Springboks were too strong and came back and won the game....
Flytaff, i completely agree that the incident discussed in this forum leaves a bad taste in every springbok supporters mouth...but you know as well as i do that these things go on in a rugby match.....i hope none of you Lions supporters are claiming innocents as a nation now...i can name plenty of your own countrymen that have done things as serious....does not help condemning only burger. it is a problem in rugby and does not belong to any specific nation or team....they all do it...it is a personal problem with some people....i could name many incidents of the game that shows dirty play from the Lions players that also did not contribute to the circumstances of the game......but i dont....i look at the result and the overall situation. it was 2 great test matches where the boks deserved to win....
the way i saw the game, and i am sure you all did, is that O'Gara did something that could have resulted in a broken neck or something worse...and was penalised for it....and the Boks showed the BMT to kick that penalty.....that is more than enough reason to forget the burger incident and celebrate a series victory.......
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If The lions had won on Saturday would we still be talking about this? The game was thrown away and now some one needs to be blamed for it.
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I believe Burger has been treated too leniently and that PdeV was a fool but I do have a few questions for those who are harrumphing on about it and claim there was sustained foul play by the Boks:
1. How many actual other pieces of foul play by the Boks can you actually identify?
2. How many Lions were injured by foul play by the Boks? Please name and shame the parties.
3. Given your righteous indignation about foul play, please tell me what, if you were manager of a team, you would do if a player was caught on video committing foul play:
(a) condemn the foul play
(b) refuse to select the player for a number of games and, if so, how long?
(c) praise the player for being hard and standing up to the opposition?
(d) other (state what)?
4. Would your answer be any different if the foul play
(a) related to the eye area and no-one was hurt?
(b) related to the groin area and no-one was hurt?
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You can line them all up really,
Burger's offence was inexcusable (straight red by law)
O'Driscoll regardless of mindset failed to get his arms up and make the tackle properly (dangerous tackle/charging is a sin binning by law)
Sheridan clearly had a crack at that fellas groin and as a No6 I would never make a move like that at any point.(again another yellow card offence by law)
Botha although the timing was tight against him it wasn't his attempt to clear it was the intent he showed entering the ruck, I was taught to clear from low to high botha came crashing down on him and it looked more like a spear tackle than an attempt to clear (again a yellow card offence by law)
I think what I'm getting at here is that they were two ferociously competitive matches which made for fantastic viewing...you can't point the finger at either side and you notice I use the term 'by law' alot above the disappointment for me is the refereeing teams failure to control the game and give both sides good reason to kerb there enthusiasm.
I am a Lion but I am also a rugby player, Peter DeVilliers is a disgrace to the sport. I am a 6....Burger used to be someone I looked up to I admired the way he played but now he has also disgraced himself and should have recieved a red for his offence as the match officials spotted it. Would that have changed the outcome of the game... probably but I cannot and will not ever agree with a referee that makes a decision based on how it will look on TV.
Lions fans overlooking what some of our boys did is just sad and to all those Boks saying we wanted Burger sent off to improve our chances of winning...this isnt football...the vast majority of rugby fans are former players and just want to see the rules enforced. We all know you are held accountable for your actions on the pitch.
Football is a game for gentlemen played by animals...Rugby is a game for animals played by gentleman lets keep it that way.
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phil-bok
well done on the series win. i'm not trying to take it away from you, but that doesn't mean i'm not entitled to chew over the key incidents for a few days afterwards... and this doesn't mean i don't acknowledge the part the lions played in their own downfall (failure to register points at key stages in durban, poor selection and use of bench at loftus, o'gara's rush-of-blood, o'driscoll getting injured in an over-physical challenge, to name but a few) as well as the contribution of the officials and the opposition...
"no saffer or springbok supporter is supporting him [burger] or what he did" - sadly that's not the case. the clown who coaches your team was clearly supporting him and using the tired old 'contact sport' defence, up until his belated and all-too-insincere retraction.
and playing 15 against 14 is "not fair" you say? so red cards shouldn't be issued in any circumstances, certainly in the first hour of a game, because the resulting imbalance in the numbers would be "not fair"? do you want to take a little while to think about that comment some more?
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thomthepom
first of, i appreciate your response in general. to answer your questions....if you look at my other blogs above, you will clearly see that i mention our dump coach. if you are a saffer, and you know the man called PdV, you will also agree that he is a stupid, dump coach....some people use the excuse that english is his second language and that he is not comfortable with english in interviews....english is also my second language, and if i am not comfortable saying something in english, then i shut up....that would be my advice to PdV. either learn the universal language of english, or shut up..., that would by my advice to PdV. in my eyes, although his comments are very strong, i dont give that guy any credit, whether he makes good or bad comments......
as to your second point....my point was merely that we all know a well balanced rugby game is between 2 teams of 15 players. once you have 14 players on one side, it is not balanced.....i would rather see a game of 15 on 15 with a real winner than 14 on 15, and when the side with 15 win, you know what everyone will say....i am not implying anything about not handing out red cards...i believe that burger deserved a red card.....but he did not get it, so get over complaining about it...history wont change...in 20 years from now people wont even remember schalk burger, but they will remember that the Lions beat the boks in 1997, and that the Boks beat the Lions in 2009....start accepting that mate and stop fighting this issue that we all agree on.....
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400. phil-bok
You deserved to win the first test so well done, the score as far as I'm concerned flattered the Lions as De Villiers made a terrible mistake by taking to many of your best players off at the same time letting the Lions in.
I disagree that you deserved to win the Second test, yes you won but as you have said that's rugby and the team that wins has not always deserved to.
My home team has won many games but some they have won by simply luck a good bounce of the ball etc. Some they have won by a bad ref who makes a wrong decision or interpretation....some they have won through sheer thuggery...yes we'll take the win but to say it was deserved is nonsense.
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phil-bok Yes I agree that 14 Boks to 15 Lions is a imbalance and I would rather beat the Saffers fairly but if Burger had been sent off and the Lions had won...yes I would take the win..but again I would not say it was deserved!!
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Flytoff, you i respect your opinion. you are more than welcome to have your own opinion about who you believe should have won....but to say that my opinion is nonsense is not right mate.....it is my opinion....we showed BMT and came back to win the match....the Lions did not lose the game, we won it.....i think it was deserved.....
as Boy Louw, a Springbok great used to say (in his broken PdV kind of english) "looks at the scoreboard". that is all that counts. As mentioned, in 20 years from now, we will only remember who won the series, but none of the details of the match...that is all that matters at this point....SA won, Burger got punished, the series has been fantastic and delivered great rugby, and the game lives on even stronger....that is why i love rugby. i do however agree that the IRB needs to take a much harsher stand towards certain things like eye-coughing, etc...ban the player for 12 months....you will put an end to that kind of behaviour...
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phil-bok I did not indicant that your opinion is nonsense, I said when my home team have won sometimes to say it was fair was nonsense;]
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I still think a decision for incidents like this should be made on the field accurately, we need more eyes to spot them and do whatever necessary to deal with them, we send people off for minor offenses so why delay the issue with something like Gouging, we all know it should of been red. It would of been unfair on the rest of the Boks..yes but the Lions would of took it. Same goes with Sheridan and BOD yellow. Botha is a hard one, was their intent to do damage to Adam Jones shoulder, did he aim at his arm rather than Adam jones body?? Was he uncoordinated enough to misplace his clearing out?? I'm sure he knows, the camera can only tell you so much and then we are back to interpretation or the 50/50.
O'Gara was he not in the air going for the ball (I admit it was clumsy) but again we are back to all these points which the Ref has to judge and make a decision. Sometimes it is wrong, sometimes right and sometimes he guesses as there must be a decision.
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phil-bok. at least we agree on PdV
but continually criticising lions' fans objections to some of the officiating and the way SA played the game, and calling us whingers is disrespectful. most of our comments are legitimate. we narrowly lost a big game and we have every right to discuss everything that happened for a few days afterwards, especially on a british blog.
are you saying that after the final whistle blows in a game, supporters of the losing team shouldn't be able to vent a bit of frustration, express their opinions etc? (by writing on a blog, or discussing it over a pint, rather than kicking seven bells out of each other as might happen in football) this would be a pretty lame site if all we did after the game was criticise our own team (for all their faults - see above) and offer facile congratulations to the winners...
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Flytaff, that is fair. Good blogging and good points made! take care
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What annoys me are the wums who call the Lions soft because of all the injuries in that match....there not rugby fans!
Yeah Jamie Roberts is real soft when he played on against Australia last year with a fractured skull!!
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thomthepom, you are 100% correct. i appreciate well thought out comments. there are many valid comments on this blog which I 100% agree with. i am responding in general. take your Coach for instance, he has not even had the decency to congratulate the Boks....shame on him...the same to any of the Lions players.....
also, believe me, i would also have complained if we lost, but would have congratulated you all!!! congrats on a great test series!!!
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Talent on tour
Brussow what a hot prospect!!
Jamie Roberts improving all the time.
Ferris showed some really good work before his injury.
Kearney-up their with Bryne.
Steyn - calm in the storm
One we missed Lee Halfpenny (reckon he will be better than Shane Williams)
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I just cannot believe Burger's actions. The Springboks are famous for physical intimidation, as part of their normal play and this is OK--but if you are good enough to play international rugby, WHY do you need to engage in low, unnecessary acts like this? As for the coach--what more needs to be said? deranged comments littered the Tri nations last year. Why be surpised?
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phil-bok I do think the coaches were flabbergasted at the time, Geech and Gat are descent blokes and I'm sure they would of offered congrats if they were not so shocked, maybe they did afterwards??. Geech was trying to remain calm and collective he could hardly get the words out properly.
Simon Shaw-even though I'm Welsh you have made us proud in showing how committed you are.
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Flytaff, i hope you are right. i know it must have been a shock, and i know as a springbok supporter not to be too big mouth, because tomorrow we might face the same situation agains the ozzies or the all blacks, but they all have been really quiet after the game...
anyways, looking forward to the 3rd test match. should be another cracker. its gonna be a tough one for the Lions to win on Ellispark..especially if some of the better Saffers play like Olivier, Steyn, etc....
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Is winning by any means coming into the game more (Not talking about last test) just in general? Have players been told to specifically enforce?
Is fairness being subtracted as winning has gotten that important?
How much do Refs interpretations decide matches (this really is my hate)
I would say at least 5-10 matches I go to each season at the Ospreys I see some of these factors.
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phil-bok To be honest I can't see us winning that one, just to many injuries and the players coming in are good but not as good as the ones we have lost. I hope they come out and stand up though;]
Looking more ahead to the Wales V SA match in Cardiff, if we put out a full team I think it will be closer this year, we let u off the hook last year;]
Injuries allowing Wales team might be
Adam Jones? (Eifion Roberts), Matthew Rees, Gethin Jenkins, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Gough (Ian Evans), M.Williams, Jonathan Thomas, Ryan Jones, Mike Phillips, Stephen Jones, Henson (Hook), Jamie Roberts (Tom Shanklin), Lee Halfpenny, Shane Williams, Lee Bryne.
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As a proud SA supporter I cannot condone this behavior by Burger at all. This is rugby not thugby! If you do not believe that you have the ability to win based on your skills and have to resort to this then you don't deserve to be playing international Rugby.
As for the coaches comments and logic!! Perhaps he needs to "eat some more beetroot and garlic". Boxing is also a physical sport, but that does not give you the right to kick your opponent in the nuts, butt him with your elbow or flout the rules of the sport. You win on the basis of skill irrespective how physical the game is and according to its laws. Hallo there PDV "is there any one inside there"? ... idiot! with this kind of mentality from a leader no wonder there is so much crime in SA: its OK just turn a blind eye (excuse the pun) to unlawful behavior: its OK!
I have tried to get onto the SARU rugby site and write a compliant - conveniently the section containing - "contact us" does not work.
I think all true rugby supporters - Lions and Boks alke should bombard the SARU site with complaints (when it one day works). The more noise the supporters make, the more officials will feel the pressure and meter out the correct punishment. We do not need this behavior in rugby - the punishment is far too lenient!
Sincere apologies to the Lions and their great supporters - You have lost the series (which easily could have gone your way - I think sport can so often be cruelly unjust!) but have won the moral high ground.
Lions supporters: Voice you complaints to the SA press and SA radio stations (not just BBC) - make a noise equal to your support at the stadiums. Make SARU squirm, they deserve it.
ANGRY!!!
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I'm not sure anyone disagrees that (a) Burger should have been sent off and (b) PdV was wrong to condone it.
I think there is a pattern emerging here:
1) Nathan Grey on Richard Hill in 2001
2) Mealamu and Umanga on BOD in 2005
3) Burger on Fitzgerald in 2009
In the first two cases the victims were clearly the most influential players in the Lions team but injuries from pre-meditated and cynical foul play ended their tours.
The fact is the SH believe their NH counterparts have a soft underbelly and anything goes in attempts to expose this. This practise is tacitly sanctioned by "neutral" SH referees, touch judges and TMO's that carry the same ex-colonial chip on their shoulder.
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As a South African I find it quite embarrasing when listening to Peter de Villiers. I find him to be unprofessional, evasive, incompetent as well as incomprehensible. Fortunately most people cannot understand what he is saying and I can confirm that it is usually not rational. I agree with Brian O' Driscoll that the IRB should deal properly with his controversial outbursts as clearly the South African Rugby Board are incapable of competent decisionmaking. Nevertheless this has been a great tour and I have the utmost respect for Ian McGeechan and team who have put up a fantastic display. Hopefully the Lions tours will continue far into the future as they are a great event and it is wonderful to have the BIL touring in SA.
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Flytaff - as long as it is a good game. that is what is all about. i am sure that the Lions will be pretty tough!
i have always loved Welch rugby. One of my biggest mates are Welch. Watched the first match with him. Cardiff is always a great place to play! Looking forward to it! i actually think a strong Welch team is better than the current Lions team....
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here are all the contact information for SARU that you need:
sarfu@mweb.co.za
Acting MD of SA Rugby (Pty) Ltd.:
Mr. Andy Marinos +27 (21) 659 6728
CEO of SARU:
Mr. Johan Prinsloo +27 (21) 659 6710
Please use this and complain about PdV and anything else...
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check out this clip on saru website:
http://www.saru.co.za/video.aspx?id=6717
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@425....i already wrote a complaint to SARU and needless to say, no response. To all the Lions bloggers here. Don't think the Saffers support the current state of affairs in South African rugby. I can appreciate the fact it may appear so however rest assured, it is not the case. We a Bok supporters want a clean hard fought game and would also prefer that these types of incidents never occur again.
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phil-bok - I'm not sure whether anything can be read into this but, of course, Andy Marinos (the acting MD of SA Rugby) played his international rugby for Wales, so he should have a reasonably good view of NH sensitivities on these issues.
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This is my first attempt to blog on this site. I can no longer bear to read the vulgar, partisan and often illiterate comments that appear, so I have to respond.
I'm a Lions and an England supporter, and I'm astonished at the hatred that many of the so-called Lions bloggers have for the other 3 nations that are not theirs. Too many people are supporting the 2/7/6 Lions players from their own country, rather than getting behind the 15 men in red on the field.
Quite often when I read of the anti-English ranting of some of the Celtic bloggers I'm tempted to look for (and rejoice in ) the mistakes of the Welsh & Irish players, rather than to appreciate the heroic efforts by all the players. I'm sure that many Celts will feel the same about England, in view of the foolishly one-eyed comments of a couple of the English bloggers here.
Let's all rejoice in the great tour that O'Driscoll, Phillips, Roberts, Byrne then Kearney, and the Welsh front row are having. Shaw, you're a hero. Vickery has been a great player, and his sad decline should be a mourned by Lions supporters, not an occasion for glee. O'Gara has been a great player, the highest point scorer in the 6 nations, and his horrific few minutes on Saturday again should be looked at with sympathy.
Look for the positives in all players, and don't try to analyse every 'what if'. The best team usually wins, and it did on Saturday. I wish we had a national anthem like the Welsh. Happy to sing Cwm Rhondda. Come on the Lions!!!!
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Oh, by the way, does anyone have contact details of who we should complain to about punches in the groin area?
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430. Niel1952
Contact the RFU
by rfu.com
To contact the Rugby Football Union by post, please write to:
Rugby Football Union
Rugby House
Rugby Road
Twickenham
Middlesex
TW1 1DZ
Please Include the department you wish to contact.
You may telephone the RFU Main reception on 0871 222 2120 and then be connected to an appropriate member of staff.
The Rugby Store is also contactable by phone: Twickenham Stadium Store 020...; York Street, Twickenham Store 020 8892 9250 and for mail-order or internet orders/enquires call 0871 222 2003.
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playingadvantage : agree with you about lions' fans who see things through their national blinkers. i'm also happy to sing cwn rhondda on a lions tour - i did in oz in '01, altho i also heard plenty of jeering celts when english fans had the temerity to air 'swing low'. they hate it, i know, but i don't like 'flower of scotland' but i'll 'take one for the team' for a good cause like the lions...
one of the most outspoken british journalists, stephen jones, has picked up on the 'lack of credit' angle from SA as phil-bok has banged on about here in 47 of his 51 postings, and addressed it in his daily 'rolling maul' email...
link attached if i'm allowed:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article6617721.ece
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playingadvantage from a Taffy
I thought the scrum coach made a mistake playing Vickery against the Beast. I am no prop so I may be wrong. Their both the same height and the Beast younger and more powerful. Due to the heights I believe Vickery's technique was negated.
Not sure how he does well against smaller props if that is the case??
Whether the smaller size of Lee Mears next to him was a factor I do not know.
Whether A lighter Alun Wyn Jones behind was a factor..again I do not know.
Was the Beast Boring?? I did see him do it once....but not all the time..and anyway blame the Ref for missing it.
Anyway it was a shame to see him getting stuffed like that.
Simon Shaw-To be honest I was probably a bit bias towards him before now, the typical Welsh thing maybe...he has proved his worth, what a great lad.
O'Gara-One of the best kickers at goal and infield out their. Unfortunately I still believe he cannot tackle or defend well and in past matches has needed the cover of Wallace or Worsley in the Channels to protect him. Paddy Wallace confirmed this but agrees he makes up for it everywhere else on the field.
Shane Williams-Out of form, Out of Luck, a shame we did not see him at his best.
Stephen Jones-Proved his O'Gara doubters wrong in the Second test. Solid.
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thomthepom Sorry have to agree swing low just sounds to pomped up for me, why you need to sing a song which has it's origins in Alabama is well strange;] and it's just to easy to alter so us taffy's can take the mick out of it, why do you think we invented our language with all those y's and double l's etc to confuse you lot so we don't get any come back;]
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Quote
On this date in 1840, The American Registry celebrates the writing of the hymn Swing Low Sweet Chariot.
It was penned by Wallace Willis, the black slave of a Choctaw Indian. Known as "Uncle Wallace," he was inspired to write this well-known American hymn by his current home near Oklahoma City.
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thanks for the welsh input...
in other shock musical news:
* blue moon revealed not to have been written in the moss side area of manchester
* cornish and welsh fans quarrel over the origins of 'oggy oggy oggy', but agree it shouldn't be permitted for use by wasps' fans
* cult '80s warwickshire ccc song 'doing the gladstone small' revealed to have originally been about an area in south london
* bear heads into woods humming to himself and clutching roll of toilet paper
* bill beaumont refutes claims he wrote 'swing low' in the bath while at twickenham while celebrating the 9-8 win over wales in 1980 (who remembers 'schalk' ringer?!)
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@pascot re. 395
Being overly dramatic will lead to you being called a "drama queen", pascotty. I made my argument (see 384 & 385), if you'd care to take a breather from your fomenting & read it, that this is all trumped up outrage stoked by a biased British media machine. You could have read it at 20, but for some reason it was removed - couldn't have a contradictory opinion so high up in the comments, I guess. Need to keep the drumbeat of indignation going.
@flytaff re. 397
WTF? You're accusing me of throwing my toys? How ironic, considering all the hysterical wailing going on here. I won't say no to tasty milk & cookies, better than all the contrived Kool-Aid being served in this blog.
.
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yebogogogo- You can't see both sides of the story or be reasonable Mate your just another moaning Wum. While your mummy's at it get her to burp you and change your nappy as it's full of brown stuff!!
20 was probably removed for your sad remarks!!
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interesting video.... perhaps all here can watch this without blinkers
http://www.sport24.co.za/Content/Galleries/Video/Top%20Videos/Was%20the%20ref%20unsighted/22248eab9539494686ad971f80af07ae/Was_the_ref_unsighted
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ctmanbok -Yep Mate both sides as bad as each other the only difference are De Villiers earlier comments which i just can't get my head around?
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Believe u me, the majority of bok supporters will agree with you re PDV aka HELIUM :)
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Just found this one he said..interesting. He's a bit like X-President George Bush the mouth speaks the brain responds many years later;]
Quote PDV
What I learned in South Africa is, if you take your car to a garage and the owner is black or a black man, and they mess it up, you never go back to that garage. If the owner is white, you say ag, sorry, they made a mistake and you go back again.
Sounds like reverse racism?
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that is the story of South African Rugby politics....shame though.
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