Haye does what he has to do
In boxing, you do what you have to do. Pleasing the crowd, fulfilling pre-fight boasts, they're nothing but peripheral concerns. Boxing's not a game, so you do what you have to do.
Against Nikolay Valuev, David Haye did what he had to do. No frills, no showboating, no flights of unnecessary machismo. He hit, he moved, he hit, he moved - all the way to the world heavyweight crown.
As the great Evander Holyfield said beforehand, the perfect tactics against the 7ft Russian lead to a "boring fight". Call it boring, call it boxing at its purest.
"He had his game-plan and he executed it to perfection," said Valuev's co-promoter Don King after watching the fight. "He did what he had to do, and he did it brilliantly."
"I had to find a strategy to beat him, and I did," said Haye, who revealed he had damaged his right hand early on in the fight. "I hit him more times than he hit me."
Haye overcame a damaged right hand to beat Valuev
Why would Haye have fought any other way? Seven stones lighter, nine inches shorter, only a madman chooses to stand in front of a giant like Valuev and trade - a madman, and most likely a loser.
Who decided a boxer shouldn't be allowed to win a fight on the back foot? Who said simply walking forwards wins you rounds? As Haye's trainer Adam Booth pointed out, "if you land two punches in the round and don't get hit once, it's you who wins the round", whether you're backpedalling or not.
With a partisan crowd behind him at the Nuremberg Arena, Haye must have been sorely tempted to let rip. While at times it felt like I was watching a spot of Flyball at Crufts - German boxing crowds are a rather refined bunch - when the Brits in the crowd got going, Haye must have felt he was going at it at The Den.
But he remembered what he had to do and stuck to his game-plan. Mercifully, he had more than enough juice to keep chugging down the stretch, which surprised a great many.
If it's excitement you want, you should stick around. Former two-time world champion John Ruiz is next, and he's tailor-made for Haye. Haye reckons he'll "knock Ruiz spark out", and this time I don't think he's bluffing.
But, in the meantime, we should savour the Londoner's victory for what it is, up there with the best by a Briton abroad: only Britain's third heavyweight world champion since Bob Fitzsimmons in 1899; only the second former cruiserweight world champion to claim a world heavyweight crown after Holyfield. It's quite some feat.
Don Curry, Ismael Laguna and Sugar Ray Robinson were far more illustrious scalps for Lloyd Honeyghan, Ken Buchanan and Randy Turpin respectively, but then none of that great British trio was giving away seven stone in weight and nine inches in height.
I'd advise you to disregard the trash-talk, that was just part of the plan. The real Haye is the man who arrived at the Nuremberg Arena with just his trainer and sparring partner in tow. He just wants to do his family, friends and countrymen proud, and he deserves all the plaudits he'll get.
Haye says he want to clean up the heavyweight division
"We've been waiting for someone like David Haye to enter the heavyweight division," said Richard Schaefer, head of Golden Boy promotions in America, one of the biggest players in boxing. "Today is the beginning of a new time for the sport."
If Haye can see off Ruiz, which he should have little problem doing, it will be time to go hunting for Klitschkos, and they shouldn't be too hard to find.
Wladimir, who was supposed to have fought Haye in June before Haye suffered a back injury, holds the IBF and WBO belts, older brother Vitali the WBC. In Haye, they'll see Vegas and glory and dollar signs. And Haye will see the same in them.
"This was just the first stop, taking the WBA title from this giant," said Haye. "I've got the British public behind me and it's on to bigger and better things."
It's been one of those rare old weeks, a week when Britain loved boxing again: Grandmas on buses, kids in playgrounds, mums trying to spark conversations with taciturn sons, posh people, poor people, texters, bloggers and tweeters.
And I bet you heard the question asked at least once: "How's that little British fella going to beat that Russian giant?" Well, on Saturday, David Haye provided the answer: he did what he had to do. And in boxing, that's all that counts.
Hello. I have been working for the BBC for almost a decade now and cover almost all sports, but particularly cricket and boxing. It would be good to hear from you - just don't be nasty or my mum might get upset.
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"I'd advise you to disregard the trash-talk, that was just part of the plan. The real Haye is the man who arrived at the Nuremberg Arena with just his trainer and sparring partner in tow. He just wants to do his family, friends and countrymen proud, and he deserves all the plaudits he'll get."
Notwithstanding the occasionally distasteful nature of said trash-talk (and as has been discussed before this fight, Ali and others were guilty of far worse) I entirely agree. Haye knows that he had to sell this fight, perhaps especially knowing that his gameplan was going to make it a bit dull, and he succeeded.
A likely KO of Ruiz will then remind us all of the excitement he can provide, and set up a fight with one of the Klitschkos - wouldn't care to guess which, nor the outcome, but it will certainly be the toughest defence either has faced in some time.
As for winning rounds on the back foot - crikey, if two of the judges in Germany gave it to him by four rounds he must have been dominant!
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I had Haye winning by four rounds too. I thought Valuev was very ineffective. He plodded forward without any urgency and barely landed a punch on Haye. Haye showed more boxing skill and although he didn't throw too many shots, the bombs he did throw generally landed. Didn't Herol Graham win a round without throwing a punch?
It would have been interesting to see the punch stats, but Haye was the better fighter and landed the more telling blows.
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Lucky so and so, wish I was there!
Cant help but feel a bit for Valuev, he looked very hurt afterwards but a good win for Haye. He didnt get to throw too many big punches but he definitely shook Valuev and at one stage I thought he may even be able to finish him off but Valuev made his head hard to hit.
Looking forward to the Ruiz fight!
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I had it 116-113 in favour of Haye.
I've seen Valuev stunned before, despite the 'indestructible' portrayal of him in the build-up, but I've never seen him so discombobulated like that, off a single punch no less.
Thank you for a fair overview, Ben. It was a pretty dull fight but then everyone has a pretty dull fight against Valuev, a guy that big just limits yours options.
I know journalists don't like to badmouth other pros but I would just like to make my feelings known on this...Jim Watt.
Terrible job from him on Sky, just terrible. Many people will come away from that fight, even worse people that haven't seen that fight as well, thinking Valuev was robbed blind just because Watt had it stuck in his head that only a bombfest would do for Haye. Watt's dreadful performance will be a detriment to Haye's image.
I hope most people will ignore that and see that the result was right, and the history books have been written - David Haye, WBA Heavyweight Champion on November 7th 2009.
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Haye was outstanding and thouroughly deserved the win. He made Valuev look very ordinary and one dimensional and very nearly slayed the giant in the 12th when his legs went. Don't know how one judge scored it a draw as Adam Booth put it perfectly if you hit and don't get hit then you win the round whether you are on the back foot or not.
Haye will destroy Ruiz next up and finally the heavyweight division is coming to life again after some very dull fights
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I haven't been that enthralled in a fight for years. Heavyweight fights often deterioriate into lumbering and hugging, but Valuev-Haye was something special.
Haye talked the talk and walked the walk. He's a worthy champion, especially considering his injury. He boxed beautifully and his movement was impressive. He must have covered at least four times the distance Valuev did.
It's during fights like that it becomes clear why judges all score differently. Most of those rounds were so hard to call that by the end I really had no idea who was going to be given the win. It's not until you get to see some of the replays that you see all the punches that connected. That's great for the suspense and atmosphere, but with all the cameras, they could probably come up with a reliable scoring system. That way audience and boxers would know the score. And then a losing boxer would come out twice as hard to get a KO. But having said that, I'm a traditionalist and would hate to lose the three selectively blind judges.
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Hi Ben,
Great blog as usual. You mention that you expect Haye to have "little problem" in brushing Ruiz aside. I was just curious as to what your predictions would be if, assuming he wins against Ruiz, David fights either of the Klitschkos and which of the brothers would you like to see him fighting first?
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I have to admit that i was one of the doubters, i thought that Valuev would take Haye to the cleaners. After watching the fight i have a new found respect for Haye's boxing abilities, i thought that Haye was by far and away the better boxer and he showed an amazing amount of patience. He is the deserved World heavyweight champion.
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Agree about Jim Watt, which fight was he watching ? I don't think what he said detracts from Hayes incredible show, it just makes JW look silly ! Well done to David Hayes, a brilliant game plan.
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Danno you are spot on!
Having PPV I expect expert commentary. It is time for Jim Watts to hang up his gloves! He (and Glen McClory) called the fight wrong. I watched it and it was clear that Haye was ahead, and having listened to the BBC radio commentary they called Haye as the clear winner. Raise your game Sky or people won't PPV again. This is not just my view but a number of people that also watched the fight. Sky cast doubt on a glorious British performance.
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Ben,
Having looked at your text commentary as the fight was taking place last night I fully expected Valuev to win and now this morning I discover that Haye has won and you have written a glorious article on him when last night you were highly critical!
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I had David Hayes to be in big trouble in this fight. But he did him, and with a broken right hand from the 3rd round onwards. Respect to Hayes, he deserved it.
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I dont think Jim Watt was as bad as some people were suggesting,If i am honest i think Haye should haave gone for Valuev more than he did as he could have easily got a KO,I am delighted he got the result and Britain have a heavyweight champion again and he stuck to the gameplan perfectly,Valuev was not a worthy champion and i really feel sorry for Holyfield who done more in his fight than Haye did in his,I understand it would be stupid to stand toe to toe with Valuev but i feel if he done raiding tactics yes he may have run out of gas but i think he would have got a KO,Anyway all credit to Davids ability to stick to a gameplan which i did not think he had in him and a win over John Ruiz should be comfortable enough and then perhaps a fight with the Klitsckhos which he would most likely get battered in
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Well done David Haye......
Even if I thought he had a chance against Valuev, my hopes nearly vanished when the fight started. Why: "how can you beat a man that is soooo big?"
He looked so tiny compare to him but he did provide me an answer for my question: "by boxing clever", that is.
He fought a very smart fight from start to finish and while it wasn't that exciting, it was boxing of the tallest order.
I am very happy for him but I still think is short on experience to take on the Klitchkos.
A good 4 or 5 fights should prepare him enough.
Now, let's see the Cotto-Pacquiao fight that should be like dynamite.
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comments no. 4,9, and 10. Absolutely spot on. Jim Watt is an absolute disgrace. If Haye doesn't get hit, how does Valuev score a point.? Didn't Sugar Ray beat Hagler on the bacvk foot? Didn't Azumah Nelson beat Juan La Porte, and Fenech (part 2) under attack? It's how many telling punches you land that counts. Valuev was made to look ridiculous, missing, and even throwing a punch when Haye had already moved away. I think in the Round 9 or so, Valuev didn't even land a punch.
Now back to Jim Watt and Nicky Piper, they should see the body languages of the two corners and see who was more anxious. Valuev's corner were slapping him up on his legs getting him to get out there more. Even after the final bell, did anyone see Valuev's body lingo? Head down, shoulders slumped and none of his seconds jumping up and down. All the photographers were on Haye and when the camera was on Valuev, there wasn't a single photgrapher near him. Haye corner was full and Valuev's empty.
Finally, and most tellingly, my mate watched it on a German Channel with his German bird and the German commentators had Haye winning the fight. That says it all I suppose.
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First of all congratulations to Haye for winning the title, I couldnt be happier for him. However, being impartial, the way Haye fought was almost like watching a Klitschko fight. Admittedly, there was more speed and fluidity in his evasive tactics than the Ukrainian giants, but his strategy of being evasive for the majority of the fight and occasionally throwing a two-to-three punch combination was somewhat reminiscent of a Klitschko performance.
The reason that I bring this up is that throughout late '08 and up until the fight with Valuev was signed, Haye had been lambasting the Klitschko's because of the defensive and nullifying way in which they go about their business. It was this style that he blamed for the decrepit nature of the heavyweight division. Even though the fight was good for Haye in terms of a technical standpoint, fights with long periods of inactivity dont grab the imagination of the general public. I think it's ironic that Haye had to employ the same tactics as the Klitschko's for his first major victory in the heavyweight division. There are some exceptional circumstances to this case, this comes with fighting the most exceptional heavyweight of all time in terms of size, and also the injury to David's right hand. Both of these perfectly validate Haye's tactics, but still don't detract from the fact that he had to fight ultra-defensive in order to pull out the win.
Again, I'm extremely happy that Haye has won the title and expect his defences to be far more explosive than his excellent display of ring awareness and discipline.
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"Having looked at your text commentary as the fight was taking place last night I fully expected Valuev to win and now this morning I discover that Haye has won and you have written a glorious article on him when last night you were highly critical!"
I don't think it was Ben doing the text commentary and to be fair to the guy who was, his doubts about whether Haye would get the decision were based on the history of judging in Germany and their preference for an attacking style.
It's disappointing that people are picking faults. When we have boxers who want to stand and trade they get called naive and unskilled, when someone genuinely outboxes their opponent, it's "negative" or "boring". Haye has skills and KO power which means he could genuinely rule this division. You can see from the post-match comments that America is starting to take note. We should be proud.
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What an absolute joke would Jones Jr, Lewis, Holyfield, Hide, Tyson, Ali, Spinks, Bowe or Foreman have looked so pleased at beating an out of shape, overweight over the hill journeyman. You cant even mention last nights fighters in the same breathe as those above. Is this what heavy weight boxing has been reduced too comedy match ups. Rediculous fights dreamed up by D King and the sky sports ppv media circus for a undemanding public.
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Sorry Ben, but for me he did not do enough to win the fight. I think he was not aggressive enough. I thought he edged the fight but was surprised that with such a narrow victory, in my eyes, he got the decision on foreign soil. I don't like the bloke but that's irrelevant, he had to sell the fight and went too far in my opinion, he had a gameplan for the fight and he convinced the judges.
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Wow, he beat a paper champion. What a way to live your dream. I would have been cool with Haye if he didn't first run his mouth and then duck and dodge the klitzschos. At least take the easy fight BEFORE making a t-shirt with the decapitated heads of fighters out of your league. I think we all know that this win over Valuev is meaningless. We knew that he'd win going into it, but come on! The only Heavyweight champs that matter are the ones that he ran away from. Hating this boxer has nothing to do with what country you come from, it's a question of how closed minded do you have to be to let this boxer take easier fights and still cheer him on.
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David who???... Maybe boxing champions would be more recognizable if there was only one belt per division... Not like the travesty of having a total of 4 champions for every weight class. If all the fighters compete for the same belt maybe there would be more competition, or bigger paydays, or who knows. What we do know is that the sport of boxing is in serious trouble.
that broken hand excuse is a bunch of rubbish.. Haye was running from the outset of this horrible fight... Haye should have been penalized for refusing to engage... having said that, he did land the only meaningful punches and Valuev wasn't able to land anything..
Haye ran from wladimir and Vitali so you need to get your facts right. Viyali Faught that tomato can Arreola because Haye backed out of the Dec. fight after pulling out of a fight with Wlad. Haye knew anyone could just stick and move all day long against Valuev so he took the fight after he signed on to get KTFO by Vitali who would be undefeated if not for injuries in title fights he was winning on all three score cards. Haye has a glass jaw and a typical big mouth like a true Brit just like Lewis who retired instead of taking a rematch with Vitali. Don't blame him, who wants to get knocked out by the best HW of all time.
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Amongst all the emotions I felt watching David Hayes perfect tactical display the overriding one was anger at Jim Watts coments.
I could not believe he actually thought Valuev should have kept his tiltle. For what? ,he did nothing but plod forward all night. It's people like this whose blatantly incorrect interpretation ruins many good fights and can ultimately lead to the title holders who are not worthy.
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I had the benefit of watching this on US TV with impartial commentators and then looking at the British media.
I had the fight 116-115 Haye, though I could understand variants around that score, many close rounds.
Haye needed to be busy in Rounds 4-7 and singularly wasnt-even the americans picked up on that. Strong finish by Haye in the 12th.
Imagine my surprise when I watched the SKY recording and read the BBC
Sport website.
Ben Dir's assessment of the fight reminded me of Soviet journalism, such was the slant on the piece.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/8347139.stm
Commenting how Haye fought the "perfect fight" was way over the line. Non boxing fans will be left thinking that Haye won every round by his summary.
An opinion blog is fair enough, but when sports news is being coloured by the writers pre-formed opinion of the fight it becomes pathetic journalism. Why not just give it to the Haye PR machine to write? They would have given a more accurate account!!
I completely agree with previous comments about Watt. Put Dirs and Watt in a locked room together for Haye-Ruiz and let the rest of us enjoy sensible commentary!
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McDennis, 16, the klits are lambastewd cos they can't finish off fighters who they the klits are much bigger and better than even of the guys are out of their depth. This is a 7 ft 2 guy and Haye was counter punching not being defensive. Please don't be that biased.
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20. Haye didn't duck the Klits. They wanted him to fight both of them, then rematches and at their own terms. Who would want that. This is all designed to keep the title amoung the Soviets. The Klits wouldn't fight each other. Ok, but why wouldn't they fight Valuev too?
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Now then, is the BBC going to step up to the plate like our boxers have? Instead of giving millions to a fraud who then ran off to the states with it, why dont we get these lads back on the national channel and REALLY give British people something to shout about? It's about time the BBC stopped messing around.
We've got two brilliant champions in Haye and Froch (I dont count Khan because he is looking for the first excuse to dissapear off to the states, and he's a Warren boxer anyway, which means his career is a sham). Come on BBC, Carl Froch and David Haye are WORLD champions and are actively seeking out the best in their divisions and are looking to clean up....if you want to give millions to anybody, these are the guys to give it to.
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Regarding posts 11 and 17
Quite right 'Innercity' - it was Nabil Hassan doing the live commentary last night and not Ben Dirs. I was also watching it on German tv with the text commentary but it didn't match in my book. Haye landed the most meaningful shots and more of them.
There was a stat that went up around round 8/9 that Valuev had thrown about 150 punches and connected with 24 - around 15% success rate. Haye had thrown about 45 and hit with 33 of them - 75% They were also cleaner.
The German commentary was telling. Not only did they have Haye ahead the whole way through - by the end they were waxing lyrical about how slow and cumbersome he was making Valuev look - they were also translating the words from the Russian corner which focused more and more on the Russian needing to come out and throw more scoring shots. Valuev's trainer was also insinuating his guy was getting caught too much and telling him to stop leaning in with his head so much.
There was quite an uproar at the end when they saw that the Spanish judge had scored it 114 - 114. The talk was all about which fight this judge had been watching! Clearly a worthy winner and Valuev pretty much said as much afterwords in the ring.
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For all those attacking Jim Watts, I watched the fight in a pub and heard no commentary and was amazed that Haye took the title. He was exceptionally negative, and ran for most of the fight. Plodding or not, Valuev was clearly the aggressor and landed with some stiff jabs and thumping hooks, even if they didn't look as spectacular as the few bombs Haye managed to dispatch. Even assuming that Haye scored more than Valuev, should this really be enough to take someone's belt? Running around the edge of a boxing ring and not allowing an opponent to set their feet doesn't require any skill as some commenting would have you believe. It looked like an exercise in survival, not the work of the Heavyweight Champion of the World.
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First things first, I wanted Haye to win. I don't particularly like his attitude but having a Heavyweight Champion of the world like Valuev is detrimental to the sport.
However, what happened to the old mentality of "you have to beat the champ". Consider Dirrell vs Froch only a couple of weeks ago, where Dirrell kept on the back foot and essentially outclassed Froch whenever he threw anything. Froch got the nod from the judges (I, as did everyone in the room with me thought Dirrell did enough to claim a points victory) and the mentality of many Brits was that "Dirrell just run away from Froch for the whole fight and didn't deserve the title."
Haye spoiled what was always going to be a terrible fight and I have no idea how the judges had him winning by 4 rounds.
At least we can look forward to Haye having to earn his title against whoever he fights next, although how he expects to clean up the division when he has to face Vitali Klitschko (who lets face it, is near invincible in a boxing sense) is beyond me.
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philpol - I didnt do the text commentary last night! Anyway, I've got to get out of this joint, speak later!
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Re post #21 "Haye has a glass jaw and a typical big mouth like a true Brit just like Lewis"
You just showed your lack of knowledge when it comes to boxing. Lewis had one of the best chins in the sport and there are plenty of clips out on youtube that proves that.
FWIW, I've said on other boards that I think the fight was tough to score; A draw was probably fair but I wouldn't of been surprised at a 115-113 score either way. I didn't have Haye winning by 4 rounds, that's for sure. That said, I'm pleased for Haye. To get a decision in Germany is notoriously difficult so he must of done something right.
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A brilliantly executed plan by Haye last night. Contrary to what some think he should have done, there was no way Haye was going to stand toe-to-toe with Valuev and I never expected him to. You make the bigger guy move, you get in hit and get out. Hayes work rate was excellent and whilst Valuev landed some good shots, just didn't do enough.
Haye deserved his victory
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Ben Dirs.... what is a stanza?
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There is no way that this could have been a draw. Original comment of the very good German commentator "116-112 is about right, it would have been a sad reflection on boxing in Germany if there had been any other result".
Personally I wouldn´t have given Valuev more than three rounds, Haye´s hit-and-run tactics were perfect.
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dmseiir - Come on kid, try a little bit harder, you can work it out.
A quick point on Jim Watt. So he didn't see the fight as many of you saw it, there's really no need to stick the knife in. People see fights different ways, and the guy's a former world champion and we should at least respect his opinion, whether it tallies with yours or mine or not.
As for all those accusing Haye of "running", I would never come on here and suggest you don't know about boxing, just that you have a differing opinion, but I would like to ask: how exactly would you have liked Haye to have fought? Standing toe to toe just to fulfill the wishes of the baying crowd? Beating up Valuev for eight rounds before walking onto one? And then perhaps you can tell me when exactly Valuev landed a punch of note. Just walking forward for 12 rounds does not win you points. From my position ringside, Haye landed significantly more punches, snappier punches, and more hurtful punches.
exiledpolish - "An opinion blog is fair enough, but when sports news is being coloured by the writers pre-formed opinion of the fight it becomes pathetic journalism. Why not just give it to the Haye PR machine to write?" Desr oh dear, I'd hate to be there when someone disagrees with you about something that actually matters. Were you also on here accusing me of bias when I said Joe Calzaghe was beaten by Hopkins? And were you one of those calling me a "disgrace to my profession" for thinking the American beat "our boy"? It's boxing, it's a game of opinions, and I strongly believe that Haye won that fight by some distance. Oh yeh, and funnily enough, two of the judges agreed!
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Wow - amazed to see so many folk apparently believing Haye won the fight easily. Very close one, with Haye landing little more than Valuev throughout - which in itself is a sad indictment.
I actually had to do a reality check after reading some of the comments here, so I went to a well-known U.S. boxing site, and was relieved to find a lot of people in agreement with what I saw (and Jim Watt, Nicky Piper, McCrory etc). Haye did not do enough in any round except the last to take the title from the champion - the result says a lot more about who the heavy-hitting promoters are now backing.
I am not a Valuev fan - I backed Haye before the fight and wanted him to win. But he didn't do enough.
And human beings' capacity for seeing only what they want to see continues to astound me.
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Oh, one other thing...
What's with the headline - "Haye shocks Valuev"?
Haye was the pre-fight favourite, at one point close to 1/2 on. Where is the shock?
Or are we talking electrical current here - is big Nikolay powered by lightning strikes?
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So can we agree that boxing's final throw of the dice to try and compete in an MMA heavy market, has failed. Valuev is a freak show with all due respect, a large number of people were only interested in this fight cause it was haye fighting "that 7 foot russian guy". The fight was dissapointing, and i dought people will be coming back for more. A split decision title change surely means instant re-match, but who wants to see it?
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The perfect right...who are you kidding? Haye spent the whole fight running away! Had this fight been in the playground everybody would have been laughing at his tactics. Valuev was the only one interested in boxing. I agree he looked awful, is slow and ponderous but at least he wanted to land punches.
Froch walked around the ring hitting thin air last month and won the fight because Dirrell hit and ran...and don't get me started about the Fury Mcdermott fight...the judging in boxing is laughable, and so is Ben's analysis of the fight.
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Sorry, Ben, but my mate and I need to settle an argument. Is your surname pronounced like Ders, rhyming with furze, or is it "Dears"?
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Well done David. Apt name.
But, just a word about his opponent. It's no joke being a freak of nature and you've got to feel a bit sorry for him. I once knew a basketball player here in Madrid who was enormous and had all kinds of problems in his everyday life. Like not getting any clothes to fit him, not being able to sleep in a hotel bed, not being able to drive a normal car, not being able to go unseen in a crowd and so on and so on. Top that with having the face of a monster and the poor bloke doesn't seem to have a lot going for him. Money can only compensate you so much.
So, while I think it's great that David won - especially after reading an interview with him in The Guadian, great bloke - I can't help wondering about Goliath. Time to go back to your cave and count your money is what most people are thinking. Not me.
BTW a boring fight, right? Maybe it's time introduce a special limit for the Goliaths who weigh more than 150 k or measure more tha 6ft 7in.
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I don't see what a fight with Ruiz will do for Haye. I know it has nothing to with what the public wants to see.
Please Don King go away and take John Ruiz with you.
Haye should skip a fight with Ruiz and go on a fight one of the brothers.
The sport needs to step it's game up MMA is killing it, along with these promoters not putting the best fighters in the ring until it's too late.
A victory over Ruiz will mean nothing. My god the guy lost to a middleweight, granted one of the best middleweights.
If styles makes fights then John Ruiz's style makes for a bad fight that no one wants to see accept DK.
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Congratulation to David Haye.
Hope to see you at THE DEN on Monday evening with your WBA Belt.
Up The Lions,
MillwallDon
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There are alot of people saying that Hayes ran... you call it running I call it boxing, he fought the smart fight, there have been a few big card fights like that namely Lewis-Tyson, Ali-Forman (lewis clinched when tyson got to close and boxed him with angles when seperated)(Ali Rope-A-Doped and tired forman out) the only difference is that some one got knocked out in those fights. Valuev is a massive 9" taller than Hayes which means Hayes would have to punch up we all know that you loose power as you punch up, so knocking Valuev out was never an option. There is also no way that Valuev would of been pushed back, Hayes would of ran to much risk of being cought with a 12cm fist, remember the Idea of boxing is to hit the other guy as many times as possible whilst avoiding as many blows as you can from him. Hayes did a briliant job and won, the fight probibly wount go down in history as one of the greatest bouts of all time but that doesnt matter, he won thats what counts, non of the critics out there were in that ring at the time and non of the critics have ever fought Valuev, so instead of critisising Hayes tell me how you would of handled it.
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This is not about "sticking the knife" into Jim Watt, its the fact that he just didnt want to get behind Haye at all.
If he cannot get behind a brit in the ring when doing the commentary, then its time to move on.
I have all resect for his record as a fighter, I just dont rate him as a pundit and never have. Sky's pundit line up are not that good.
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@ 42 - You obviously dont read around. Haye CANT skip a fight with Ruiz. He is contractually obliged to fight him. Those were the conditions for the Valuev/Haye fight. Ruiz took money and signed a contract to step aside to let Haye in to fight Valuev. Haye now HAS to fight him, he has no choice. He is now the mandatory challenger. As for "Ruiz's style makes for a bad fight" I have to question your knowledge of boxing. He is custom made for being knocked out by Haye, as Haye points out.
And comparing MMA to boxing is ridiculous. It's like comparing boxing to judo. Who would make such a comparison? And yet so many people try to tie the two together, it's starting to get a little old now.
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Some people on here seem to just look for arguments!
I predicted Haye would be too quick for Valuev and it prooved so! However when they were both in the ring together I did think how the hell is he going to win? It looked like a lightweight vs a heavy!
Great to have a British champion, good to see boxing coming back to the public's attention.
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Haye-Ruiz HAS to happen if David wants to keep that WBA belt.
And while it would seem a no-brainer to jump if a Klitschko big money fight came along, the whole point of this Valuev fight was to get Haye a much bigger bargaining chip in the form of that title.
So I don't think he'll be keen to drop it immediately if either Vitali or Wlad click their fingers.
And there's considerable kudos to be gleaned if he takes on Ruiz and knocks him out. Ruiz is not a popular guy amongst boxing fans so disposing on him for good would be lauded.
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Shock horror Frank Warren's trying to belittle someone's achievements now because they managed to win a title without him helping them!
Great win by Haye, wasn't the most exciting fight but then it was never going to be. I was still concerned at the end that he hadn't done enough to win it over there even though the only punches landing were coming from Haye. But credit to him he stuck to his plan the whole way through, executed it splendidly and now hopefully people can start getting interested in the Heavyweight division again. Finally there's a champion who likes to do more than just jab for 12 rounds!
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Ben,
Apologies, but I could've sworn that when I clicked on the text commentary link last night half way through the fight it had your name at the top..
Regards,
Lee
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Well Done Haye!
just really don't like at all the trash talking before the fight, business or not... Is the "noble art" the nickname for boxing?
Definetely the heavy weight division looks more exciting anyway.
There is another exciting boxer coming up, Tomas Adamek.
What you guys think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X42h6Jotc4
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Haye executed the right tactics to win last night. If this was a non-championship fight, with no belt on the line, then Haye clearly wins and no one complains about the result. I thought that Haye boxed like Eubank last night doing enough to win 2/3rds of the rounds. Valuev was simply poor. But I also thought that Haye took too many chances show boating in the last two rounds I didn’t think that Valuev deserved that. He may not be a great champion but he has always done his best with his own physical limitations. I hope Haye fights Ruiz next and then moves on to the Klits. He’ll be ready to fight them then but we’ll have to wait and see if he’s ready to beat them.
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I caught up with the fight this morning and saw another amazing performance by one of the undisputed all-time legends of the sport - a phenomenal triumph against a much larger opponent. But enough about the incredible Fedor Emelianenko. David Haye got the job done as well. I hope he can unify the heavyweight division and restore some credibility to the big boys of boxing. Time to give the Klitschkos some real competition.
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Ben wrote:
"As for all those accusing Haye of "running", I would never come on here and suggest you don't know about boxing, just that you have a differing opinion, but I would like to ask: how exactly would you have liked Haye to have fought?"
Nothing wrong with hit and run tactics in the circumstances, but he barely hit, he just ran. He landed combinations at the very end of certain rounds, to attract the eyes of the judges no doubt. But he needed at least two or three times his punching output to take the belt from the champion. He just didn't throw nearly enough punches.
Ben wrote:
"And then perhaps you can tell me when exactly Valuev landed a punch of note. Just walking forward for 12 rounds does not win you points."
There were certainly a few good stinging blows landing Haye's way - note the attention that was being given in the corner to his cheekbone from the early rounds. You're right to say that Haye landed the more meaningful punches, but Valuev was catching Haye with the jab, and with hooks in the corner. The fact that Haye was constantly retreating meant the full force wasn't absorbed, but they would still have been taking their toll. If your opponent isn't willing to engage, you're not going to land many punches. Simple as that.
There's defensive boxing, and negative boxing and Haye's approach certainly fell into the latter category. You could see what he was capable of in the last round... a couple more rounds of work like this may have convinced me that he'd done enough to take the belt from the champion. As it stands, I don't believe he did.
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first things first,haye is the FIFTH british heayweight world champ since 1899 not the THIRD,herbie hide,frank bruno,lennox lewis,henry akinwande and now david haye,the sun also made the same mistake looks like ben mirs been reading the sun again!lazy!,anyway well done david,never easy to go away a take title off the champ no matter his ability,well done david,WBA HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP
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@ 54 What about Haye's (suspected) broken hand? Does that not figure into the equation? Perhaps Haye thought that a world champion with a right hand mashed into pulp is not terribly useful? I know if I was in a fight with a mashed up hand, I'd want to throw it the least amount of times I could get away with too!
I'm really dissapointed that there are so many people on here who cant just be happy for the guy. Enough with the negativity already, I'm going for a pint.
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P.S TIME FOR JIM WATT TO PACK IT IN,EVEN IAN DARKE WAS GETTING THE HUMP WITH HIM LAST NIGHT,HE IS SO NEGATIVE,SKY NEED A NEW LINE UP,NICKY PIPER GIVING WORLD CHAMPS ADVICE!GOT SOME CHEEK I THINK
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#55 Tom.
If you read Ben's list of the British Heavyweight champions he mentions Hide and Akinwande in the footnotes but as he points out they held the least regarded title out there so in some people's eyes aren't considered true heavyweight champions. More like token champions. As for calling Ben lazy how about using some proper punctuation, maybe a full stop or 2 and some capitals, or in your secnd post some lower case. Actually you have given me a laugh calling someone lazy and then posting something as bad as that! Anyway lecture over.
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akinwande and hide both hels the wbo title,one of the four main title and # 58 is a sad little man
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I was actually only worried because he wasnt champ/was away from home. I had him winning the fight easily to be honest. The commentary completely focused on what Haye was doing and not what Valuev did, which was absolutely nothing.
Jim Watt was really reluctant to get carried away with Haye's work, but in doing-so I think he totally overlooked the fact all Valuev did was come forward and miss. But I like Watt because he generally doesnt get carried away with hype and is savvy enough to have seen results in the past where the challenger has literally had to wrestle the belt away from the champion, especially away from home and we all saw that recently with the decision Froch got. So I dont blame him, especially when Haye was a little less active in some of the middle rounds.
But yea, I think Haye really pulled away in the championship rounds and it was awesome to see the giant on rubbery legs for a moment in the final round to put a stamp on it.
Haye wasnt negative. He was elusive, barely getting hit, got all the meaningful shots. If you're fighting Valuev it's the only thing you can do, in trying to reach upto his head and avoid the shoulders. Fight him is just awkward.
I wasnt even expecting Haye to be as disciplined as you could see at times he just wanted to go toe-to-toe. Nor was I expecting him to continue being as mobile through all 12 rounds, especially when there were questions raised about Haye doing too much promoting and not enough training.
The heavyweight division just got interesting and i'm hoping this is the catalyst that brings an end to the sluggish giant era of heavyweight boxing where size has overcome skills.
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58,what belt did joe calzaghe proudly defend for 10 years?thats right the WBO belt,least regarded!!you and ben clearly have no idea what your talking about,goodbye for now come back when proper boxing fans are here...............................................................................................................................................
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re Post 45:
This is not about "sticking the knife" into Jim Watt, its the fact that he just didnt want to get behind Haye at all. If he cannot get behind a brit in the ring when doing the commentary, then its time to move on. I have all resect for his record as a fighter, I just dont rate him as a pundit and never have. Sky's pundit line up are not that good.
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I don't agree in the slightest. Firstly he's always behind British fighters. Secondly, and this is the trouble for some fans, he's also knowledgeable about boxing. A low-punch fight in the champion's back yard generally goes to the champion and that's more or less the history of Valuev's career. Haye should have done a bit more, he planned to do more, many felt he didn't do enough to prevent a home-town decision. If you remember the Holyfield fight, he seemed to have done quite enough, but he lost. And that's what Jim Watt had in mind. If you don't really follow boxing this will be mysterious to you.
Jim Watt distinguished between these two positions throughout the fight. He kept saying he didn't think Haye had done enough to convince the judges, but he hoped 'with all my heart' (Rd 12) that he had. That's pretty straightforward.
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I agreed with everything Jim Watt said and was surprised Haye got the decision. He was only launching one attack per round and the rest of the time keeping out of the way, it has always been convention that the challenger has to forceably remove the title from the champion not simply survive..."wars are not won by evacuations". I expected Valuev, who relentlessly plodded forward keeping Haye on the end on his jab to win by 4 rounds. Despite the fact he showed no initiave or agression.
Having said that Haye was not keeping out of the way through cowadice but as the result of a game plan, which was indeed perfect (as it turned out) but I thought to win it there should have been at least 2 or three attacks per round not 1 (or none).
Haye showed tremendous fitness and coolness under pressure, it was great to see him wearing a poppy on his way in as well. If he did break his hand early on then obviously all is forgiven, but maybe this excuse was part of the game plan too.
I hope he drops the bad mouthing next time, I hate that in boxing. It just drags the sport down to the Jeremy Kyle level. Boxers should show mutual respect as both men need tremdous courage to do what they do.
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Haye could have done more but I still think he did enough in my viewk. First couple of rounds was finding out what Valuev had, what his strategy was etc I think Haye was a little scared of getting caught by Valuev but he took the shots well.
Sometimes its just about doing what's needed.
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Scuse me since I'm not a boxing expert, but it seems fairly ridiculous to an outsider to allow someone as big as Valuev into the same classification as Hayes - what else can an opponent do but keep out of his way? How can you have a decent match?
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Ben - I do agree that Jim Watt needs to be respected for winning his title, but as a pundit I think he has picked up some bad habits. I think Jim was scoring the fight based on what he thought the judges would give rather than how he saw it, and because of that he came out with a decision that was at odds from what most people saw because he was trying to guess which way the judges would go.
I can't believe that anyone could score that fight to Valuev in all honesty, if he landed 3 power shots all night thats as much as he did. When you consider Haye damaged his hand I think the performance was sensational. My prediction before the fight was Haye to win TKO8, and I think if he hadnt damaged his hand he could have done that convincingly.
Interesting to note a lot of people were questioning Hayes stamina before the fight, and the second half of the fight was where he won it (on my card anyway), but for Nicky Piper to say that he didnt think Haye had proved his stamina because he hadnt been pushed was outrageous. DFancing around the ring for twelve rounds keeping your concentration is as draining as going toe to toe but in a different way.
To anyone who says Haye fought on the backfoot and stole a decision, Floyd Mayweather Jr as made a career out of that and is regarded as the best around, I think some people have lost sight of what boxing is supposed to be about - a game of skill and pugilism.
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Ben - I think you need to add some perspective here to the victory. To the casual fan watching Haye get a decision over a guy as big as Valuev probably looks hugely impressive but the bottom line is Valuev is an awful fighter. He barely threw a punch in anger over the whole fight and his sole tactic involves plodding forward trying to jab and slap. He made things extraordinarily easy for Haye as he never sought to use his size to effect whatsoever. The pre fight "David v Goliath" hype was good but look at Valuevs "big wins" - a couple of majority decisions over an ancient Holyfield and average Ruiz and then was beaten by Ruslan Chagaev who himself was outclassed by Wlad Klitschko. The hype machines wanted to gloss over this for pr purposes and there was very little mention of Chagaev beating him whatsoever - as if Haye was actually taking on an unbeaten fighter that couldnt be stopped.Its pr obviously but when analysing the fight it needs to be mentioned in context.
Haye in mind was quite lucky. In these kind of fights where you have a clear clash of strategy and style its going to be difficult to predict how the judges score - I was keeping an eye on the betting and going into the 11th Valuev was a handy favourite indicating most people thought he had been winning the rounds. When Haye caught him and wobbled him there was a huge rush which put both fighters more or less neck and neck but after the final bell Valuev was actually favourite to win.
I dont think this was a masterclass from Haye - it was obvious after a couple of rounds that Haye clearly had all the tools needed to win as most suspected. Valuev was very poor. But Haye could have done much much more. He never tested Valuev at all and was content on trying to win rounds by virtue of landing a couple of punches. This is extremelly dangerous when fighting on the back foot and away from home. Its not a question of trying to brawl and trade with the big guy but you need to do more than what Haye was doing. I was quite disappointed by both fighters in the sense that neither really tried to convince the judges either way. Haye was happy to gamble that his single digit punches would nick him the rounds and Valuev that his dull plodding forward would do like wise. any sort of reasonable flurry or combination from either guy would have easily stole the round. Did Valuev throw anything other that a jab all night? even the sight of the big guy winding up one or two big punches would probably have been impressive enough to convince the judges that he was actually trying. Haye was so ultra negative himself that he really risked throwing away a fight that he could have won far more comfortably and impressively. This was no Leonard/Hagler performance for my money. At the final bell I thought the better fighter got the decision but my gut feeling was that it was a fight both fighters never really went for and could have done a lot more to win. Id fear for Haye against the Klitschkos based on that performance.
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Ben
Good Blog. I watched the fight last night and completley agree that Haye did what he had to in hitting Valuev and then getting out the way. OK so it wasnt a classic but Haye is now a World Champion and at the end of the day thats all that matters!
For all those criticising Haye just remember that he broke his hand in the third round. It was always going to be difficult to beat the 7ft giant but to do it when struggling with an injury makes his victory all the more impressive! Like Haye himself said after the fight he wanted to be more aggressive but this prevented that. I believe he will sweep aside Ruiz in his next fight with a knockout before a showdown with either Klitschko after that. It is then that Haye can really be judged and we will find out just how good he is.
And in a final point just because Ben has a different view to a few of you doesnt mean you have to post comments ridiculing him. If his opinion wasnt valued im sure he wouldnt be in the job he is!
Keep up the good work Ben!
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Once again we have a big group of people that believe their opinion is fact ... grow up! Opinion is opinion and everyone sees thigns differently, who are you to decide who a "real boxing fan" is? someone who agrees with you or someone who enjoys watching boxing?! The fight was nothing special, but no fight with Valuev is! He is a monster and you just can't stand there and hit him or he would have had more than 1 defeat on his card prior to last night! Some people may not agree that Haye did enough, but the judges did andf thats all that matters, a lot of people thought Holyfield beat Valuev but he didn't get the judges call, all that matters is Haye now has the belt he wanted and can move on from there. If he has to face Ruiz then he can show a bit more explosivness then and if he gets past Ruiz he can really show what he is made of against one of the Klitshko boys and everyone can debate then if he really is good enough at heavyweight.
Good blog Ben, always seems to provoke a lot of debate!
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If I was Haye - I would stay well away from Klitchko - the guy is a totally different league from Valuev - Haye could get seriously hurt!
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Tom - No, not lazy, just right. Hide and Akinwande were WBO 'world' champions at a time when none of the top fighters considered it worthwhile to fight for. It was pretty much the same as claiming to be a world champion now if you own the WBU belt. Right, got a plane to catch... bye!
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Hopefully a saviour has emerged for this division of boxing.
May David Haye remain champion for some time to come.
But was the odious figure of Don King circling overhead with pen and contract inhand.
Beware of the small print David!
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I totally disagree coxxy.
Firstly Haye has made a career out of throwing himself in at the deep end so staying away from danger is not in his mindset.
The Klitschko's are different league to Valuev in boxing terms yes but far less awkward to box than Valuev who is simply a freak of nature with brick-like bone structure.
Haye has the power and speed of punch to definitely dismantle frail-chinned Wlad if he can find a way past the great jab and tight defence to connect clean.
And Haye's speed and movement can give the stronger, but totally robotic and open, Vitali many problems.
Both fights bring together so many possibilities. Both very intriguing.
Having watched Haye since amateur level I have faith in him beating both.
I think Wlad has the biggest achilles heel for Haye to exploit but in some ways Vitali's style is more tailor made for a speeder fighter with good movement as he's so open and lead-footed.
Haye could have him blowing early and cut him to shreds quicker than an out of shape Lewis did many years ago. But I just question whether his great heart and awesome power might still prevail.
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What a fight!
Anyone see Bruce Lee in Game of Death duelling with Kareem Abdul Jabaar? It was like watching that but with boxing!
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Tom your posts just get better! Would be a bit more interesting though if you actually wanted to have a debate instead of trying to proclaim to anyone who'll listen that your opinion's right and should be treated as fact. How about taking your head out of the sand and try to actually take on board what other people are saying. Fair enough you may think your correct but just because you think it doesn't mean it is so. Oh and calling me a sad little man and nobby, hilarious, have fun back at school tomorrow, make sure you pay a bit more attention in English though.
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A sad day for boxing. By all accounts a turgid, unconvincing affair by both protagonists. Emelianenko, the WAMMA MMA World Heavy Weight Champ, and compatriot of Val,would have pinned Val down with in minutes with a kick to the right leg, followed by a rush to the knees in a shoot hold, followed up with five cracks to the nose with a forearm attack using the bone, swung round to the top of the head with five knee strikes to the top of the head and then spun under the right arm with an arm lock with the left leg on the throat and the right leg on the chest.
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No 27. You couldn't have been more spot on with yourpost about the German channel. I said same thing about a mate watching on German TV on post 15. If they even think Haye won, I don't get the negative reaction of some people here. If some don't like Haye, fair enough but they should take their rose tinted glasses off beforer they comment about this fight. Again spot on with your post.
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@55. I agree but you have to remember that the WBO wasn't even regarded then at HW level so the likes Hide and Akinwande not being mentioned in the same breathe. ASnyway, you also forgot about one more Brit in your correction. Michael Bentt was beaten by Hide for the WBO title. Ok he was yank based and later turned yank but he was born in south London and later moved to the States.
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Ryushinku makes a good point. I am usually pretty good at calling fights, and I had Haye ahead for the whole fight, albeit not by much, but I began to doubt the result based on the comments of Jim Watt. I couldn't understand how Haye could be losing when Valuev had barely laid a glove on him all night. I appreciate that Watt was perhaps judging harshly because that was what he expected from the judges at ringside, but I still feel it was misleading.
Haye clearly out-boxed Valuev, and is rightly being applauded for having the only strategy that could compete with Valuev's physical attributes. It's just a shame that that could not be recognised by the commentary team on the night.
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For all those who are moaning about the match and the heavyweight division in general. If you don't like it, don't watch it! Simple as. If you all think it's easy to beat a 7 foot man and that this beast was just a paper champion, then put your money where your mouth is and jump in the ring for 12 rounds with him. Until you do, shut up.
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I thought the fight was interesting. Not exciting, more tense. Jim Watt seemed obsessed with the interpretation that judges might have put on Hayes tactics. Luckily the guy that hit the other guy more won. There's always got to be room in sport to use what you have at your disposal - just as there's nothing wrong with Haye's approach, there's nothing inherently wrong with Valuev using his size to his advantage, or a 10k runner their superior sprint finish (as I argue in my own blog).
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Great on you David, executed the plan perfectly.
Anyone see what Frank Warren said about David Haye? That he wasn't worthy to be a champion because Valuev is a poor boxer, and that he must prove himself against the Klitchsko brothers?
Hypocritical man, surely all his boxers have never proved himself against the best in the division and all secured the easiest path to a title? David beat a guy who may not be the best boxer but is certainly a tough obstacle, granted the divison is poor but FW should really reflect on his own fighters 'success' first.
Go on boxrec and take a look at where Dmitry Salita, Khans next opponent, is ranked.
To be honest, he's just jealous that a british boxer got to the top without his 'expertise'.
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Exactly alexjknight, the guy talks so much rubbish its untrue. Why is Khan fighting at light-welterweight now instead of lightweight? Oh because the lightweight division is too strong for him. Just because a guy has succeeded without him he has to try and rubbish the achievement. Sour grapes because somewhere down the line Haye probably rejected him.
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ben you keep saying he is only the third brit to be heavyweight champ but have you forgot about bruno already? well done to haye for a very controlled fight think he will walk through ruiz but cant see him toppling the brothers
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@55 hats off to your post never saw it before but thats what i was trying to say dont like it when people dont check there facts first
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David Haye was technically outstanding, Valuev was punching thin air for most of the fight. David Haye made him look like an amateur, coming forward like an amateur! The words of wisdom from Floyd Mayweather senior!
I don't know which fight Jim Watt was watching because he got it totally wrong, incompetent fool should retire.
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I agree with many of the comments here but especially no.4 by Ryushinku. Jim Watt was soemwhere between embarasing and downright annoying. Ian Darke is a sycophant who never disagrees with his co-commentators but even he seemed irked by Jims tunnel vision.
Ther were 2 points here. The first being the judges would score it in Germany. I genuinely thought that Hayes corner had got it wrong in there advice since I felt sure he would be robbed. But Watt actually thought Valuev was winning the fight which was laughable. The only thing Valuev it was air, again and again and again.
From the first round I said to the guys I was with that the fight was a no-contest...it was over. You could see that Haye saw Valuevs punches coming. Only Hayes confidence could lose it for him, and luckily he stuck to his task perfectly. If Haye was fighting just a normal giant like of say 6ft 8", he could have opened up more but as has already been siad, you just cant do that against Valuev.
Haye boxed to perfection. It should be use as a study for kids in gyms throughout the UK. Haye won on my card by 7 rounds 9-2-1, and that was being generous to Valuev because while they both threw a minimal amount of punches, Valuev just could not land properly.
One final comment on Jim Watt. I admired him greatly as an over-acheiver in the ring but he has been spouting this kind of nonesense for the past 5-6 years. The problem with Jim is that once he gets an idea fixed in his head he WILL NOT EVER deviate from that position. Jim its time to hang up the Microphone mate!!
Congrats David!!!!
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Fair play to David, he absolutely got the job done even if it wasn't the prettiest or most entertaining of fights. But I can't let his pre-fight comments go - I thought we were going to see Valuev laid out cold?
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#89
I rather suspect that his pre-fight comments did not make allowances for an injured right hand :-)
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lightsout - I haven't forgotten Frank Bruno, if you read the blog again I said Haye is "only Britain's third heavyweight world champion since Bob Fitzsimmons in 1899".
Pondo1664 - I can't imagine Haye lost any sleep last night worrying that he didn't knock Valuev out.
Yeh, heard about Frank Warren on the wireless, bit strange. As 5 Live commentator Mike Costello pointed out on air, I don't remember Frank complaining much when Amir Khan played pretty much the same game against Andreas Kotelnik. And Kotelnik was the same size as Khan.
I would love to sit down and watch this fight again with someone who thought Valuev won - with the sound down. Then I'd ask them as the fight progressed to point out exactly when Valuev landed with any meaningful shots, indeed did anything other than walk forward and stick out his jab. Again, while I must stress that I am not slating anyone's opinion, reading some of the comments above it's almost as if Muhammad Ali never existed. Watch the fight against Liston, he's backpedalling almost the entire fight, landing every now and again with flurries. Watch Floyd Mayweather, he's like a matador. And if you want to see boxing at its purest, get on Youtube and watch a highlight reel of Pernell Whitaker. It's called boxing, hitting your opponent without getting hit. Whether you're legging it while you do it is irrelevant.
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Ben,
I scored the fight to Valuev. 115 - 113. The examples you give are a little misleading. Ali fought Liston on the backfoot but as you say Ali landed with flurries. By this you mean combinations. Ali was in and out, but not once a round with a single shot like Haye, but several times a round with two, three, four shots, while Listons Jab fell short. Haye didn't do this, he stayed out of range, didn't zip in and out at all. Haye threw no flurries other than the 12th.
Mayweather dismantles opponents. He fights on the backfoot but counters continuously. His punch output is considerably higher than the five Haye threw every round. And the genius that was Whitaker stood in range and moved with upperbody sways while countering repeatedly. Sweet Pea threw punches after making others miss while in range, as does Mayweather as did ALi. Haye stayed out of range.
Valuev landed jabs. These are scoring shots. The rounds when haye landed his bombs, he took the 10. He didn't do it often. Haye got hit. His accuracy rate is high because he threw so little. The statement that landing two shots while not getting hit gives you the round is not accurate. Haye was hit in every round (the jab, and a few glancing rights) so each round came down to each hitting the other very few times (in the range of 3 or four punches) while one looked to fight as the other kept out of range and looked to engage for a single shot on one occassion.
Haye did not do anywhere near enough during the fight to win 116 - 112. THe draw, or a narrow win I can understand through interpretation. But winning 8 rounds to Valuev's 4 on a non-attacking, stay out of range, low punch output routine is strange.
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First and foremost, I would hope that all fans of British boxing would want to congratulate our newest world champion. For me, there was no doubt both that Haye won the fight clearly and that he fought the style of fight that gave him the best possible chance of victory against somebody of the dimensions of his opponent. That deserves credit, not criticism.
To take some of the other issues, I agree with the criticisms directed at certain pundits, particularly Jim Watt. Now I usually find Watt to be a good and reasoned analyst to listen to, but I thought his reading of last night's fight was completely wrong, as shown by his scoring of the fight in Valuev's favour. The number of times Valuev swung and missed was frightening and Ian Darke had it right when he said you can't just give points to a fighter for coming forward.
I guess that brings me to the comments of Frank Warren, which appear quite strange on one level and just silly at another. I don't think anybody has said Valuev is a great heavyweight, but his sheer size presents a unique challenge which Haye took on and the Klitschko brothers, who Warren apparently thinks so highly of, have not.
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ben - Nice name. Yes, but Ali and Mayweather never fought blokes who were seven stone heavier and ince inches taller! The point I'm making is, they often fought on the back foot. And I disagree, Valuev wasn't landing with jabs, he was throwing it out all night, but not landing. And if Haye was landing "once a round with a single shot", how come I had L-R-L, L-R-L, L-R-R, denoting combinations, written all over my notepad at the end of the fight? So, I totally agree with two of the judges - and the bloke next to me (I won't say who he writes for) gave Haye every round but one!
pontoon - Ian Darke was spot on if he said that, you can't just give points to someone for coming forward.
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" Hide and Akinwande were WBO 'world' champions at a time when none of the top fighters considered it worthwhile to fight for"
mmm --leaving aside whether Tommy Morrison was really ever a top fighter, by the time Akiwande was champion both Foreman and Bowe had fought for the belt. That's arguably 2 of the top 4 of the 90s.
Add to that that Vitali fought for the title whilst Hide was still champion. The next two champions were Byrd and Wlad
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Ben, he might not have lost any sleep, but he hasn't done his crediblity any good. Sure, Ali might have fought Liston on the back foot, but he ended up putting Liston on his back, twice. Haye wobbled Valuev once - once - in twelve rounds. Again, Ali wasn't fighting someone one sixth taller than him, but he called the fight and backed it up. Haye called the fight and then spent it backing up - no disrepect in that, mobility did the job for him, but if you're going to talk the KO talk, you shouldn't walk the timid walk.
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Hats off ta haye, as ben said he did the buisness, not particularly the most entertaining fight i ever seen but was shouting encouragement to haye afta valuev s wobbler. i suppose the next mega hype fight will b klitchko's but bring on ruiz i think that fight if he knocks him out will really begin his catapult to stardom
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Pondo1664 - HE'S 7FT TALL AND WEIGHS 23ST!
rigadon - Between 1996-98, when Akinwande and Hide held the WBO belt, the WBC champions were Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis, the WBA champions were Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield, and the IBF champions were Michael Moorer and Evander Holyfield. None of the aforementioned challenged for the WBO belt. Meanwhile, Hide defended against Willi Fischer, Damon Reed and a 39-year-old Tony Tucker, Akinwande against Brighton's Scott Welch, Alexander Zolkin and Jeremy Williams. Things have changed admittedly, but it was the B league back then.
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Ben,
I think you quoted the only three combinations Haye threw in the fight. I don't remember seeing three in one round. I'll go back and watch the fight again, but until I do, I'll stick to my first impression. I have watched round 11 again - through a post on facebook - and though I am not saying this is representative of the whole fight, Haye gets caught with Jabs, and a hook, while everything he throws bar a jab to the body misses. It's a valuev round.
on another thread, someone published stats for punches thrown and landed after 6 rounds. The percentages were heavily in favour of Haye, but the actual number was only edged by Haye (26 to 33, or there abouts.) Haye got hit.
I think the tactics were right, but his attacking forays needed to be increased. Throwing 15 more punches a round, broken into four combinations a time would have seen him score a shut-out. He didn't do this, and my scoring and impression - and I know this is an old-school thought - was that he didn't do anwhere near enough to take the title.
The better fighter won, but he didn't throw enough leather to prove his superiority. The only round he increased his punch output by the small amount suggested was the 12th, which was the only round clearly won by either fighter.
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Ben - Same name, but we were watching different fights...
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That was the worst fight I have seen in 40 years of watching boxing. It reminded me of a Tom and Jerry cat and mouse chase. Valuev wanted to fight and chased Haye for 12 rounds, but Haye ran away and had no intention of standing and fighting like a man and but just wanted to hit and run away. We know Valuev is massive but also know he is very limited. The bottom line is that Mr King and Mr Schaever (CEO of Golden Boy Promotions) were there and know that Valuev has had his day (as he does not speak English or even German)and know know that Haye will sell better than Valuev in the USA and Europe.
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Ok, those of you who are so quick to be deterimental of Hayes tactics, raise your hand if you think you could go into the ring with a 7ft 23stone man and stand toe to toe with him. This is a profession as well as a game, David had not only his current well being (which lets face it, against Valuev is not guarenteed) but his future in the sport to consider, if he'd gone in there throwing bombs from the first round, standing toe to toe, he'd have gotten picked off eventually. I challenge you to go and do what David Haye did with different tactics. You are all just looking for something to complain about, if he had done what you think he should have and lost, you'd be on this blog (although Ben would have written it slightly differently) and be complaining that David should have been more cautious, you just cant please some people.
Wonderful blog Ben, right on the button
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Boxing fans know Akinwande was never a "real" heavyweight champion but if we're recognising the belts then he deserves his due.
He was WBO champion in 96-97 - Joe Calzaghe became WBO super-middleweight champ in 97 yet I never hear anyone saying he wasn't a proper world champion then. It shouldn't matter what other champions were about.
Same with Terry Marsh. Everyone considers him a former light-welter world champ yet no one was bothered about the IBF belt back in 87.
Nowadays there are big fights for the IBO belt. Are these fighters true world champs?
This isn't a dig about Akinwande or any other fighter but just to highlight why it's blx to put so much faith in what belt any one boxer holds.
As for Haye, job done move on. I'd challenge any fighter to look good against Valuev.
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Ben - it is actually possible to give marks to a fighter simply for coming forward if his opponent is throwing hardly any punches himself and running for the whole fight.
This fight was a poor one from a spectators point of view. Valuev is slow, ungainly and not actually all that powerful given his size. This is because his actual technique in throwing punches if prett poor. His right hook is little more than a clubbing slap and his jab isnt hugely powerful either. I dont think he threw any other type of punch.
Ive absolutely no problem with the tactis Haye used and I think everyone would unamiously agree with his theory. However your drawing up comparisons with sheer masterclass displays with like Ali v Liston. This fight, and Hayes performance, was a million miles from that sort of thing. No Liston wasnt 7 foot but he was a hell of a lot beter a fighter than Valuev and far quicker!
People dont seem to be able to get over the size aspect. For all Valuevs size - he doesnt utilise it at all. If anything hes just a bigger target that is impossible to miss. Haye has vastly better skills yet he was content to rely on trying to nick rounds b the narrowest of margins. This isnt Leonard - esque tactics. There were no flashy combos or big power shots. His own trainer was making the point that if one fighter lands two punches and runs for a whole run he will win if the other fighter comes forward and lands nothing. Perhaps yes but is this really a smart tactic to employ. Valuev didnt land much but neither did Haye and its risky business doing this in the circumstances. Valuev was actually favourite after the last bell so clearly Haye wasnt impressing everyone. The impression I got was that both fighters felt that they were actually winning the rounds and were content to play it out. There was no urgency from either guy apart from a short burst from Haye towards the end. I wouldnt have expected Haye to start trading with Valuev but I would have expected more agression than he showed us, especially after all his build up talk. Its not a case with Valuev where if he lands on you you are certain to hit the deck - Ruiz, Holyfield, Chagaev and even more aobscure guys like Larry Donald and Sergie Lykhahovich have comfortably gone the distance with him. He isnt a devastating puncher - he is a big, solid jabber. The fight was a hype machine from start to finish and it really seems to have got in the way of a true assessment of the fight and its implications. I cant help but feel if it was one of the Klitschkos or even another Eastern European like Povetkin who had won the fight like this it would be slated from here to eternity as the most boring and timid HW display of all time and further proof that HW boxing is dead. But becase its a British fighter its being heralded as some kind of masterclass performance. It was a MD win in a very uneventful fight.
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Sounds like some want to over haul the rules to suit their own objective opinion. Haye won fair and square by being the smarter, busier and more clinical of the 2 fighters. Isn't that, among other things, what the judges are looking for?
You cannot stand toe to toe with someone like Valuev and expect to win. As champion, surely you should have the skills to adapt to your opponents strategy and counter? Valuev didn't in my opinion.
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RIGHT, I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS, WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME JUST... only joking, lovely arguing with you, or agreeing, and many thanks for all your chat over the week, it's been good fun as usual.
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105. At 01:07am on 09 Nov 2009, shinyAllspark wrote:
I dont see how you can say Haye was the busier fighter of the two. Valuev was clearly more agressive and throwing more punches.
I dont think Haye "clearly" won the fight either. One judge had it a draw and the bookies had Valuev winning it. So it was close. Hayes tactics were correct. Using speed and staying on the outside is the natural gameplan for beating a slow fighter like Valuev but for me he simply wasnt agressive enough. I maybe had Haye nicking the fight by virtue of winning the last two rounds clearly but I thought he played a very fine margin. Looking at Valuevs record will tell any fighter that the big guy has been the right side of plenty of narrow verdicts. Being the home fighter aswell and the champion Haye needed to be sure that if he was going to fight like this he must really show the judges he is doing enough to take the rounds. In my view he didnt really. He maybe won 3 rounds clearly and the rest could quite easily have gone either way. If Valuev was a murderous puncher and threw huge hooks and uppercuts I could agree with what Haye was doing but Valuev was just jabbing. Even if Haye did catch a few jabs in order to get in and land a big shot I think he would have been ok. I thought it was disappointing he didnt even really try - especially given the way he badmouths other heavies for safety first approaches.
I was disappointed with Valuev aswell for being so limited but I expected this. A bit more urgency and eye catching punches from him could have seen him snatch another tight decision. With Haye I was just hoping for a little more.
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How can people say that Lewis had a good this and a good that when he only really started to dominate when all the people were retiring and growing older? Also after all the trash talking i actually wanted Valuev to win as he just got on with it didnt say anything bad and came out of it with some dignity. Im all for a war of words but some of the stuff Haye said went a bit too far! On to the fight, how can anyone win a belt without beating the champion? im sorry but the last time i checked i thought someone had to CLEARLY be better than the other person to take their belt, and this wasn't the case! Bring on the Klitchko's and show Haye how its really done!
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"NickJames1989 wrote:im sorry but the last time i checked i thought someone had to CLEARLY be better than the other person to take their belt, and this wasn't the case!"
Nick i'd love to see where it says that in the rules?
Because so far as im aware, it doesn't matter whether you're miles better or milimetres better, better is BETTER, as the saying goes, "it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, a win is a win"
You dont get more points or in this case more belts by beating your opponent by a knockout as apposed to a split decision. The fact is David Haye is the world champion, and until someone takes that belt from around his waist, he is "better" than fighters that dont have one. As for your frankly ludicrous proposal that Lewis beat people who were retiring and getting older? Was Klitchko old and retiring when he beat him?
I assume you're a Muhammed Ali detractor too as he often went way way too far with "trash talk." The fact is this sport is not just physical pugilism, its 60% mentality and tactics, 30% skill and talent, and 10% brawn, im afraid the pre-fight verbal jousting is part of the tactics of out-psyching and out thinking your opponent, if you crumble under the pressure of some mind games, you deserve to lose for not being mentally strong enough to shrug it off as the banter it so clearly is
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@95.The point Ben Dirs and other are making (regarding the WBO HW title being little regarded then)is no one took it seriously. You say Bowe and Foreman fought for it. Fine. But what you are missing is, top fighters then vacated it as soon as they could fight for the WBC, WBA, or IBF. They only fought for it for to give them a chance to cahllenge for the established ones. But once they won a title, they didn't go hunting it down to unify it did they?
Bowe vacated it and Akinwande won it. Ask why Bowe even vacated the belt under no pressure to fight a Holyfield in a non title match? I will understand if one vacates a belt to fight someone bigger if being forced to fight a lesser opponent. But that wasn't the case. After beating Hide, he vacated it after 4 months. What does that tell you? Before that Foreman too fought Morisson when the WBO was also vacant.
And please, at the time they both fought for the WBO, an overweight and indisciplined Bowe and Foreman coming back were not ranked top 4. Maybe, by name not by what they were doing at the time of fighting for the WBO.
The WBO however was made credibly by fighter in the smaller weights like Benn, Eubank, De La Hoya, and Barerra. In the HW, it was lightly regarded at the time. Yes Vitali fought for it, but are you trying to put Vitali in the company of the illustrous people before him? You make it sound like he is in the same bracket at the top HW of all time.
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@104. When did the rules change? That you could award points to a fighter for coming forward (and harldy connecting)? Ray Mercer would have won every fight then.
Valuev, at one time, was almost shadow boxing. He threw alot of jabs, but majority missed and some lnaded on Haye but then most of his shoulder. People seem to forget how may of his punches missed Haye. At one point, he threw a punch whilst Haye had already ducked. I guess people scored that in Valuev's favour too.
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@107. Same guy who wrote 104. You say Valuev was more agressive and throwing punches. Is that how boxing is scored? Please take off your anti Haye glasses. Boxing is scored with punches landed, not punches thrown and if then punches landed at looked at for more telling shots. What agression did Valuev show? Just moving forward and missling wildly.
Ask why was Valuev's corner more concerned about Haye? It's absolutely incredible to see some people here having a pop at Haye and saying he lost the fight when Valuev himself was crest fallen after the fight. He and his corner knew they had lost it. His promoter said Haye did what he had to do and did it brilliantly. Even German commentators are saying Haye won. But some here are hammering Haye. I just don't get it. Very bizarre indeed.
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@108. It seems some people are here to bash Brits. I really wonder. We complain we don't have champions etc and when we do, we bash them again. I wonder what some people want? Yeah, Lewis and Haye are not called Ricky Hatton I suppose so they will get bashed by some of their own Brits.
Is this the same Lewis that Bowe, Tyson, and Hoyfield were busy avoiding till they couldn't anymore and eventually had to fight? Ask why Don King went tooth and nail to make sure he was kept out of the picture? Ask why they didn't want to fight Lewis when he was either no. 1 challengher or when he had the WBC belt.
Is this the same Lewis that most boxing experts and boxing mags put him in the top ten all time HWs?
I really wonder about some of you? I really do.
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#26
Now then, is the BBC going to step up to the plate like our boxers have?
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Yes, instead of wasting millions screening F1 cars that just go round and round (yawn!) why not try getting boxing back on terrestrial television - BBC you need to try and break the Sky monopoly!
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112. At 05:26am on 09 Nov 2009, U14175829 wrote:
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No actually I was up for Haye - I just dont think that this was a masterclass display that some would have us believe. I had him winning the fight - but narrowly and it would not have surprised me at all if Valuev had been given the nod such is the subjective nature of boxing. I watched Froch v Dirrell recently and also scored that that fight to the more defensive Dirrell for similar reasons. Froch chased but was largely innefective and hit far to much thin air. Dirrell didnt throw enough himself when he could have despite boxing better in my view and landing the better quality punches. However Froch being the champ and home fighter meant that Direll was going to be up against it with these tactics unless he clearly won the rounds. De la Hoya v Mayweather is another fight where largely ineffective agression caused a split decision.
Agression is actually something that judges take into account scoring a fight. Yes it has to be effective and Valuev wasnt particularly but Haye was so negative and threw so little back himself that he left himself in real danger of giving away rounds in my view he could and should have won more comfortably. The last round or two when Haye actually went out of his way to try and win them decisevly he showed that he could.
The fight was a disappointing spectacle - not Hayes fault alone but I do think this fight could have showcased him a bit more. As I said above if it was anyone other than Haye who had won this fight I think it would be dismissed fairly quickly as a snoozefest and not that big a deal - much like Chagaevs win. However since its a Briton we are being led to believe that this was some kind of surprise tactical masterclass in the vein of Ali v Liston when it really wasnt. It was a good, quick HW beating a large poor one. Too much emphasis has been put on Valuevs size and there seems to be no balance in highlighting just how limited the guy is and how his record is littered with tight decisions much like this one. Theres a very fair argument to say Holyfield beat him and even Ruiz. Chagaev did it before and some fairly average fighters have been well capable of lasting the distance with him - something that is increasingly implied as a hugely difficult thing to do (it isnt if your a top HW!).
However in Hayes defence, I dont think he will be content to bask in this fight and I fully expect him to gun for better heavies. My fear is they are just far more accomplished than Valuev and theres no chance Haye will get a decision fighting like that against the Klitschkos. I also think Haye is being a bit hypocritical in lambasting all the other heavies as being boring when in my view he fought just about as negatively as he could without giving the fight away.
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Lennox Lewis was a first-round pick for the International Boxing Hall of Fame. 'nuff said about his quality.
As for Haye, I'm amused that he can't wear the belt yet because they're re-sizing it! I'm even more amused to see ol' Frank Warren chime in, predictable as clockwork, about how terrible this all was.
If Sky did as many PPV buys as some rumours suggest for this bout, that'd be wonderful. And a clear sign of how much interest there still is in boxing in this country.
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ok. 155. Point taken. But one thing is you can't call Haye a hypocrite. He only had to fight like this cos of this giant being 7ft 2. If he fights like this against Ruiz, then please call him that.
Everyone knows, and let's face it, this wasn't Haye style. But the Klits are known to fight negatively even against opponents who they dwarf and are hapless. So unless Haye fights the next few fights against similar sized or smaller opponents that way, and becomes his style, he can't be called a hypocrite.
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117. At 10:13am on 09 Nov 2009, U14175829 wrote:
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By hypocritical I mean that he was ultra negative and I honestly dont believe he had to be. Valuev is big but not really a puncher. He jabs and slaps. The bigger danger for Haye in my opinion was he would get held and man handled thus leaving him exhausted later - not that one of Valuevs jabs would spark him out. I think he couldve fought alot more like he did in the last round. He can look back and say well all is well that ends well and I won the fight but had he dropped a decision or suffered a majority draw or something he would have really been kicking himself having blown his opportunity. I suppose I just think Haye was overly negative. I never expected him to stand and trade but I did expect a more aggressive fight from him.
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How funny it is to hear Frank Warren to spout his usual rubbish. Was n't Warren supposed to retire if David Haye beat Enzo Maccarinelli. Frank do everyone a favour and do as you promised, you will not be missed.
Anyway congratulations to David Haye, well done, take out Ruiz, then give Vlad and Vitali a beating.
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Congrats to David Haye a tactical and confident display I had him winning by at least 3 rounds but agree a lot of the rounds were hard to score as frankly not a lot happenend. But Sky's Ian Darke was right by saying you cant win rounds by just comming forward, I dont know what fight Jim Watt was watching but to be fair i think he was more worried about the judges scoring in Germany.
But today should be about congratulating David Haye and looking forward to what comes next. The heavyweight scene has now had a fire lit underneath it and if he gets past Ruiz than a summer fight with one of the Kiltchko's will be huge! 2010 should be a great year of sport!
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COME ON DAVID HAYE brilliant, i for one knew he had the skill to do it
however i thought he would do the typically english mess up by talking himself up with a strategy then go out and do the exact opposite like two certain other english boxers and get knocked out pretty much straight away not mentioning any names hatton and khan
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I'd advise you to disregard the trash-talk, that was just part of the plan. The real Haye is the man who arrived at the Nuremberg Arena with just his trainer and sparring partner in tow. He just wants to do his family, friends and countrymen proud, and he deserves all the plaudits he'll get.
Didn't come on to be advised, Ben, but to read a boxing writer's article. When will they post that?
Don't pretend he's a real heavyweight champ. This fight was just another sad sign of how weak the division has become.
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I think its sad that a slect few people on this blog are criticising David Haye for being world champion and claiming that he is not a worthy champion, you cannot expect David Haye to go toe-to-toe with someone who is 11 inches taller and 7 stone heavier than he is! He had a superb fight, went the full 12 rounds (which many thought he would struggle with, myself included), made Valuev do a silly dance in the 12th.......all with an injured right hand!! How people can say that this is not worthy of the World Title is beyond me, Valuev fought poorly, Haye went out there to prove that size doesn't matter.......well point proven if you ask me!!
And those of you that are knocking Ben Dirs........I have one thing to say to you.........JOG ON!!!
Ben gave his honest opinion of the fight and I believe exactly the same thing that he does!! Ben mate, keep it up because your doing a stand up job mate!!
All Haye has to do now is beat Ruiz.....I think he'll do it, it'll be easier than Valuev.....then bring on the Klitsckhos (can't spell the name).....that will be an incredible fight and David Haye is exactly what British Boxing needed to boost its reputation in Britain!!
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I watched the fight on the german channel. I must say they almost saw every round going to Haye. Even the corner of Valuev agreed urging him to come up with combinations.
Pre-fight descussions are always full with words like glass chin, no power, no movement, etc.
If I read some of the comments here I hear people saying:
David Haye must have enourmous power because to them he didn't hit. So with one punch he nearly floored the giant Valuev.
He must have a steal chin because he got hit by Valuev alot and never looked in trouble.
What I'm trying to say is people see the fight they want to see. I didn't saw Haye running. I saw him ducking and stepping a side. To me he never showed his back to Valuev (that is running). I hope he fights one of the brothers after Ruiz. That will be great because either fighter had the skills to win on points or with a KO.
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I meant both fighters will have the skills to win on points or with a KO.
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So happy to see the majority of the British Boxing Public being so spot on and well informed, unlike some commentators on the (ah-hem) channel that screened it. How could a so called "professional commentator" spend the whole fight bleating on about the judges not going to like Haye's tactics, when firstly landing one or two punches is clearly preferable to Valuev landing none in a round, and secondly as pointed out in the above article, how else would you fight someone with such a blatant physical advantage? Well certainly not by handing him a tactical advantage too!
I especially liked one of the panel of three pundits being asked before the fight for his opinion on the likely winner, rewarding us with his revelation that he was not sure. Decisive sports journalism!
I'm normally a beeb knocker but please renew my faith in you and start bidding for some descent sports rights and take it away from the current channel. You can't be short of a bob or two!
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Haye had a game plan, stuck to it and it paid dividends, and he rocked the big man in the final round. My only criticism was that he didn't gof or the bigger shots and combo's at least a round earlier, because i had it scored a lot closer then the judges (except obviously the one who scored the draw). But anyway, he did it, and i wasn't a judge. Haye looked classy yet possibly over defensive, Valuev hugely one dimensional.
I think this has worked very much in Haye's favour... he'll get a pay day against Ruiz (and hopefully not have to up his share of the kitty with trash talk) and then next stop Klitschko, now that will be a fight, and if he wins that then i'll bow down.
I have to say though, despite the above that Haye is my favourite boxer currently and is a breath of fresh air to the heavyweight division.
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Firstly, I thought the fight was extremely difficult to score. Valuev has been rightly critised for what was an abject performance. However, I am a firm believer in the challenger having to take the belt from the champion i.e. dominate the fight to a certain extent (whatever tactics are employed), and I do not think Haye achieved this (my opinion, perhaps not the opinion of others - had it been a non-title fight then Haye wins hands down).
As some people point out, it went along very similar lines to the Froch vs Dirrell fight and although Dirrell was the slicker boxer, he was on his bike for most of the fight and a few flashy yet ineffective combinations could not hide the fact that he was very negative and rightly lost a decision.
On the flip side of this argument, it was evident that the only way Haye could win was to emply the (negative) tactics that he did (and the judges factored this in, deciding that Haye had done his job effectively.....and also the fact that Valuev's ring skills were so poor that he could not cut Haye off, in what looked to be the smallest ring they could get away with....so perhaps Valuev's huge physical advantage counted slightly against him in the end?).
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Strange result, thought it would be points decisison against DH. DH clearly had it in the bag, but Holyfield had clearly beaten NG but managed to loose on points. Given it was in NG's adopted backyard, I can only conclude that Don thinks he can make more money with DH. Politics?
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123. At 11:52am on 09 Nov 2009, HamiltonOverButton wrote:
he is worthy of valuev's title, Hammy, but not of the attention, or comparison with champions from era's when there were good boxers in this division.
he is a rubbish fighter (as is valuev), with a fragile chin, and i don't fancy him to beat either of the VK brothers.
finally, if people want to criticise the rather lacklustre bbc journalism, maybe you should keep your feelings about this under your hat. it is the national broadcaster, funded by the public, with a comments section provided.
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Personally I had Haye by 2 rounds although some of the rounds were very difficult to score as not a lot happened. My overall impression was that Haye just landed slightly more punches and much better quality punches than Valuev. A lot of the jabs by Valuev were blocked or did not land cleanly so either do not count or barely count.
There were several rounds where I simply could not see Valuev having landed more than one or two jabs cleanly. Haye in the same rounds would land 4-5 clean shots - those are Haye's rounds.
End result is that any decision from a draw to a 4 round victory by Haye was a fair reflection of the fight
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I understand that David had some equally nice things to say about your book Ben.
The only difference being that at least you saw his fight I suppose......
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John Ginivan - Haha! Yeh, he ruddy loved that book, it's just a shame we weren't able to fit his whole quote on the front: he reckoned it was the most dramatic book written since the Bible.
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Great result for David Haye. He should have no problem dealing with John Ruiz - the fact that Ruiz rated #1 contender by the WBA baffles me. The Ring Magazine wont mind though as they have been saying for ages how they cant wait for Ruiz to hang up the gloves. Something tells me Haye is the man to make that happen.
GYMPIE - Just to add to your comment about Herol Grahame, many believe the great Willie Pep also won a round without throwing a punch (3rd round against Jakie Graves)
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Could it be that the questionable jaw and stamina were a result of dropping weight to compete at cruiserweight? Is Haye actually be a tremendously talented tactician who can change his style and tempo in response to things on the night? Possibly.
Do I think he has developed sufficiently to defeat a revitalised Vitali? No.
A great performance though it was, feet need to be kept on the ground and time needs to be bought before stepping into the ring with the older Klitchko. Ruiz will be a useful test, but he needs another top level fight ahead of meeting either of the Klitchko's (Wladimir first if he has the choice)and hopefully as the third fight within a 15 month period.
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Devilishly_Red - Yeh, I agree. This notion that a challenger has to be clearly better to take a champion's belt is just that, a notion. There's nothing that says it in the rules, a challenger just has to be better, by a round is enough. The idea that a challenger has to be lots better is frankly a bit dodgy and does boxing no favours, because the suggestion is judges have ulterior motives in scoring the fight.
Thankfully, two of them got it spot-on Saturday. As for those saying it was a difficult fight to score, I wholeheartedly disagree, I think Haye walked it, I only remember giving Valuev two rounds in the whole fight. And, as someone pointed out abovve, German TV gave Haye just about every round. I'll repeat my challenge: can someone please tell me when exactly Valuev landed a decent punch?
Oh yeh, and what have people got against Lennox Lewis all of a sudden? This county... wonders never cease...
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If you want an exciting heavyweight fight how about David Haye vs David Tua! Tua looked impressive in his return fight and still has his old power!
I couldnt see that going more than 3 rounds as they can both hit hard!
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Ben
Any chance you could find out the punch stats for the fight? They dont seem to be available anywhere.
I must say I didnt have Haye winning anywhere near as handily as that. Valuev was missing alot but Haye wasnt throwing. Judges, whether rightly or wrongly will often reard agression particularly in the event that the fighter on the back foot is throwing vey little. I wouldnt dispute the decision but I think your assessment is a bit one sided to Haye. Do you really consider this performance to be a masterclass? I can honestly say I would not be shocked if a different set of judges scored the fight to Valuev. I wouldnt entirely agree but I do think your glossing over Hayes complete lack of aggression outside the last couple of rounds. Its just naive to think that on foreign soil against a reigning champ (even a poor one) you can get away with being that negative and win comfortably. Also as proven time and time again in the past - its possible to win a fight without necessarily landing quality shots. Just think of Hopkins v Calzaghe which I know you gave to Hopkins. I cant remeber Joe landing many clean shots, certainly not for the first 7 rounds anyway yet one judge gave it to him by 8 rounds?? I say this as someone who is glad that Haye won but was disappointed in the fight.
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Ben, I know the figures - I'm sure Haye also knew how big Valuev is when he said this -
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"The combination of my hand speed and Valuev's immense head is going to cause an explosion. This is my chance to make history," Haye told gathered press. "I've dreamed of the moment Valuev falls to the canvas and I truly believe it will be one of the most jaw-dropping knockouts of all time. Valuev has never been properly hurt before, let alone knocked down or out, and I'm now being given a chance to become the first fighter to bring 'The Beast' to his knees," he added.
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If he hadn't been coming out with stuff like that - and all the hygene and Lord Of The Rings comments - I'd be happy to applaud his win.
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I think we have to remember Haye was fighting with a broken hard for most of the fight which basically killed any chance of a knockout, however he can very close in the 12th!
I think if they were to fight again Haye would be more confident and aggressive and would stand a good chance of achieving that impossible knockout!
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All this fuss over Haye's win seems to me to be a case of the 'Emperors new clothes'. He basically ran away from Valuev all night, in some cases landing no more than 3 or 4 punches per round.
There is always arguments over whether to score for aggression or not, and Valuev was totally ineffective, barely landing a punch so technically haye won but the fight was no more than a glorified exhibition. If Valuev had stood still in the centre of the ring and waved Haye on, would there have been any combat at all?
Andre Dirrell landed far more and infinitely better combinations against Carl Froch (whom barely landed at all), and yet his tactics were derided as negative.
On a separate note, Haye not even acknowledging Valuev after the fight, (even walking straight past him while celebrating) showed a complete lack of respect for his opponent. I am shocked that no one has mentioned this. He may have done so later but not for at least 10 minutes after the end of the fight and to my knowledge not at all.
Also, his comment 'I made him look like a complete amatuer in there' was arrogant and lacking in class.
Are we really that desperate for a heavyweight champion that we will only see what we want to see and hear what we want to hear?
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"Is this the same Lewis that Bowe, Tyson, and Hoyfield were busy avoiding till they couldn't anymore and eventually had to fight?"
Come off it Tyson would have absolutely murdered Lewis if the two fought when they were both in their primes! Holyfield would have won also. Lewis is not as great a champion as some would believe
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#142 Whilst I agree that the 1986-1989 Tyson would arguably have beaten Lewis, I think that Lewis' style would have always been too much for Holyfield.
And it cannot be denied that Bowe refused to fight Lewis, and also that Tyson paid him some £4 million to step aside in order that he could fight Holyfield.
Lennox Lewis never ducked anyone. The same cannot be said for Tyson and Bowe, - Holyfield, maybe.
As for those that say Lewis owed Vitali a rematch, well - why?
Vitali may have been marginally ahead on points but his face was hanging off as a result of the damage Lennox did to him after 6 rounds. He would never have lasted another round and Lennox was already coming back into the fight, having taken the best Vitali had to offer.
He may not have been the greatest, but he was great nonetheless and more to the point he behaved like a champion.
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Tyson would have murdered Lennox and Holyfield if they were all at their primes! Look what he did to Frank Bruno after Bruno won the title, 6 months after Bruno becomes world champion, Tyson makes him look like a fool.......no disrespect to Bruno intended as he was a brilliant fighter
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#144. You are the first person whom I have ever heard refer to Frank Bruno as 'a brilliant fighter'.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ben is it worth arguing that the reason we dont produce as many great champions as other countries is because win or lose someone somewhere in the media or public forum will slate them for it, David Haye is a perfect example, slated for winning, and would have been slated if he'd lost. Other notable examples are Lewis Hamilton, Andy Murray and any English footballer since Bobby Moore. The fact is most sportsmen these days are wondering what they have to do to get positive critical aclaim from the country they represent, how do you expect them to be motivated when they know they're going to get trashed whether they win or lose. No doubt if Haye had gone out and destroyed Valuev inside four rounds with his right hand tied behind his back, someone, somewhere would stand up and argue that he should have been blindfold too to be called a "worthy champion"
Its a sad state of affairs, i for one am glad im not a sportsman, i honestly dont think this country are worth fighting for, literally or figuratively
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Terrible fight from a neutral point of view but Haye got the job done. I didn't expect him to go in all guns blazing, but the last round was probably a blueprint of what he had intended to do if he had not hurt his hand. I hope people check out his other 21 fights to see he is a very exciting fighter and support him in future. He's one of the few fighters around willing to take risks to get the big fights and I hope he gets paid well for doing it.
I expect to see him back to his usual gung-ho self against Ruiz
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Although avoidance was a significant tactic, I imagine Haye would have gone for Valuev more if he hadn't broken his right hand - who knows he could have got that knock out (but also could have tired himself more)!? Haye probably went for it more in the last round partly because it didn't matter so much if he made the hand worse at that point. Anyway his tactics worked so onto the next fight which is sure to be alot more explosive - looking forward to it!
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@142. I just asked a simople question. If you are going to "murder" someone in a big fight, then why do you avoid him so you fight the likes of Bruce Seldon. It's that simple. There is a guy there that will generate a super fight that the public wants to see, yet you fight someone else and make less money. Just answer that. It's easy to say Tyson would have murdered Lewis when it's clear a boxer will beat Tyson, not a brawler.
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@144. Are you comparing Bruno's ablility to Holyfield and Lewis? Ok, if you think he beat Bruno so he would have destroyed Holyfield and Lewis, explain how he was knocked out by a lesser known Buster Douglas then?
Tyson, in his prime or not, was always going to be beaten by a boxer. Alot of fighter were beaten before they stepped into the ring with Tyson, and they traded with him which is his strong points. Box him from distance, he gets frustrated and get closer with clubbing.
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So the boxing world has it's new heavyweight superstar, just in time for Pac Man and Floyd to retire.
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@147. Can I buy you a beer please? You are absolutely bang on. We have become a nation of haters. We moan when we don't have champs, and when we do, we are busy praising someone else and dissing our own. But those who don't make it as champs and are losing finalists and bigged up all the time. "Oh what a brave effort". Bruno had been the darling of the nation (for going close) years before he won it. I bet if he hadn't won it at all, he would have been knighted by now.
When someone works hard to makes millions in business, you get people on Question Time getting applauded for bellowing out that the rich should pay more taxes and they are morally bankrupt with obscene money that could build a hospital etc, though they forget the amount of taxes they pay. But let someone win the lottery and have the same amount of money as the banker or the businessman and he will be column inches in the press day after day. People will say "good on him/her". "Good luck to him/her". But work hard, make sacrifices and make it and suddenly you are being clobbered from all angles. Instead of being praised for your work and dedication, you get hated.
Look at Eubank. He was hated throughout until he started losing and became a gallant loser then he was loved. People wanted to see Hamed beaten. They say he, and Eubank had big mouths, yet, let Tyson is mobbed everywhere he goes in this country and he was the king of trash talk. Threatening to eat Lewis' kids, and also telling another he will smash his nose into his brain.It's bizarre.
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@153
Im a pub landlord sir, the beers are very much on me, and the first toast shall be to the success of those who have worked hard for it, Mr David Haye included
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I second that, your excellency.
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Ruiz is one of the worst heavyweight "champions" in history and I don't think Haye is much better. Haye should beat him but he'll get a pasting from either of the Klitschko brothers. Trust us to over-hype yet another mug...
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@156
Or we, could back our home fighter and support him in glory and defeat.....just an idea.
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To Devilishly_Red:
I take your point and under normal circumstances, I'd do just that, whether a bloke was good or bad. However, over the past few months and in the lead-up to last weekend's fight, Haye's comments and behaviour has been simply embarrassing. Embarrassing for him and embarrassing for the nation. To be frank, I was ashamed, what with the attacks on the Klitschko brothers (he'll pay for that in the long run, I've no doubt) and with his unfunny remarks and lack of respect shown to Valuev. People can say that he was only trying to 'hype' the fight but I don't buy it.
To add to the above, from what I've seen of him, I don't particularly rate him. And if he's now making boastful comments about what he'll do to Ruiz, well, that goes back to my point in my earlier thread. Ruiz has to be one of the worst heavyweight champions in history. If you've ever seen him box, you'd know what I mean. He probably will beat Ruiz (remember, Ruiz has lost twice to Valuev as well as take a beating from Roy Jones Jr) so I'm not sure why this fight has any significance whatsoever and who'd bother paying to see it.
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#147. With regard to your comment that this country is not worth fighting for, a boxers' motivation - unlike a lot of other sportsmen, surely does not stem from a desire to fight for their country.
Likewise, I view a boxing contest as between two people, regardless of their nationality and I view it objectively.
Despite distaste at his remarks, I was rooting for Haye prior to the fight. However, his performance and in particular his complete lack of empathy toward Valuev after the fight to me was not a reflection of the core values of the sport. It is not a case of the British disease of slating those that are successful.
Haye can be good for boxing, he is talented and he just about won the fight - what there was of it. The first round of an average fight would deliver as many punches as were landed in the whole 12 of this one.
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I agree wholeheartedly with Ben Dirs' assesment of the fight here. I could understand the sky commentators scoring the fight how they did, but disagreed with them during the fight. Effective punches were all landed by Haye, and no effective punches were landed by Valuev, when he did hit Haye it was never clean.
The reason I say I can understand the scoring by sky commentators, is that if these judges had scored the Calzaghe vs Hopkins fight, the right result would have have been granted. In that fight B-Hop labnded nearly all the 'effective' punches, 2 or 3 per round, while Calzaghe connected with a punch cleanly, for the first time, in round 10!!! Likewise if the judges from that night were in Germany, Valuev would have won, just for being the aggressor and going forward; even though he was clearly out-boxed. Hopefully now people realise why B-Hop (correctly in my opinion) believed he had schooled Calzaghe when they fought....
I have been saying for a long time that JC is a fraud and should never have one that fight, now I understand that unless a knockout is achieved, it really does depend on the judges!!
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cleverLivernut - The Hopkins v Calzaghe fight was another case where had Calzaghe not constantly come forward there would have been no fight at all.
You hit the nail on the head yourself by stating that Hopkins only landed 2 or 3 blows a round - its not enough.
The fight was close as Joes work was untidy but he wore Hopkins down and but for breaks in the mid to late rounds where Hopkins faked low blows to get a rest, he would have been floored or even stopped as he was tiring very badly.
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Having now seen the fight again and scored it. I have Haye winning by at least 3 rounds. It was a stinker of a fight in reality with much of the fight containing long inactive periods with neither boxer scoring anything. However Haye did what he had to do to win it. If he had stormed in trading with Valuev he would have got smothered and caught with shots on the way out. You have to admire the fact that he stuck to his plan and showed great discipline to take the belt. He is a far better boxer than valuev and better for the heavyweight divison. Can't wait for him to attempt to clean up the division now! Heavyweight boxing is interesting again. As for Valuev if it wasn't for his sheer size he wouldn't even be in the ring with his limited abilities. He may have plodded forward trying to force the fight with Haye but he hardly connected with a decent punch during the whole 12 rounds - whereas Hayes punches, even though they were few and far inbetween, were far more effective. A deserved win, but as I say as a spectacle this will not go down as one of the greatest heavyweight bouts of all time!
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Hey guys, as a total newbie to boxing, im dismayed to see everyone picking at every small fault that they can find.
I did come into this rooting for Haye but i really didnt think it could be done, neither did my father who was really into boxing in his day and boxed a bit himself. This fight, and Hayes outspoken comments have got me enthralled with heavy weight boxing. Once again i say it, I've watched very little boxing compared to most of the posters here and take my comments with a pinch of salt if you feel that they are incorrect.
I see Haye as a cruiser who hit the gym and drank a bucket of protein shake and became a heavy weight. He's only had a handful of fights in the division and maybe this explains why he was so shy. He was criticised for being chinny in the build up to the fight. And not quite knowing what to expect from a giant so far above his weight class, I believe he took the safe option and stayed out of range as much as he could. His hand injury in the 3rd most likey compounded this. Further more, everyone who offered advice in the blogs and comments on them advised Haye to get in, throw some punches and get out and he did that to near perfection. He was critised for lacking stamina, he smashed those critics. He was criticised for not being a patient boxer, he smashed those critics once again. As far as i can see it, he was the under dog in every sense. He's fought less fights, and less that a tenth as a heavy weight of Valuev has. He's smaller in every sense and almost every facet of him was criticised except his speed. Even his usually respected punch got taken to pieces. On all counts he proved that he has what it takes to hang with the big boys, after only a few heavyweight fights(he only had spent a grand total of 6 rounds in a heavy weight ring before taking on Valuev).
Haye was forced to fight a fight that wasnt of his usual style as far as i can tell and this may explain why he did not manage to pull off the defensive style as well as Mayweather and Ali have been able to do.
I commend Haye for what he managed to achieve and Im a big fan, his comments outside the ring remind me of the Ali that I've heard about and watched. Haye has the potential to electrify the heavy weight devision in my inexperienced opinion and bring in the viewers, like myself. But you cant please everybody so I can see why some of you dont like it. We all have the luxury of being able to criticise the fight from the safety of an armchair, but things arent the way they appear to us looking at the fight from the safety of our armchairs. I and anyone else who has fought(my experience being judo) at any level knows this.
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I would like to point out that there was a world title fight between Carl Froch and American Andre Dirrell in Nottingham about one month ago, which ended in Froch retaining his world title on a split decision because "the British" press and Froch said quite simply Dirrell did not deserve to win as he was to defensive and stayed on the run he deployed tactics of hit and run (sound familiar to a certain David Haye). In fact the British media claimed to back up Froch that to go out and win a world title you have to be the offensive fighter pushing the fight to claim the belt and that you dont win world titles being on the run, American boxing media claims the decision towards Froch to be the biggest robbery of the last ten years so someone is in the wrong. This past few days i have seen a huge contradiction by the same British media on what it takes to win a world title during the Haye fight. Please someone help
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ronan1984 - Not me buddy, I had Dirrell winning the fight! Although the biggest robbery in the last 10 years? Don't think so - did you see the Tyson Fury-John McDermott fight?!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bendirs/2009/10/froch_and_fans_frustrated.html
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BigRighthand - '2 to 3' effective punches per round, to Calzaghe's none most of the time. For me another robbery although not as severe as Dirrel's...
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True Ben, but i was not pointing the finger at yourself but the media as a whole on the Froch victory, and yes the Tyson Fury vs John McDermott decision was a disgrace but it wasn't for a world title. I'm throwing my hat on Cotto on saturday night to cause an upset. Any one else backing Cotto over Pac-Man this weekend? The smart money will be on the pound for pound best boxer on the planet Pacquiao and who can blame them with the experienced Freddy Roach in his corner compared to the green Joe Santiago in Cotto's after he sacked in Uncle.
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cleverLivernut - Joe landed plenty of punches in the fight, and worked harder in that he made the fight by being the aggressor. He also cut off the ring very well, not an easy task against an excellent boxer such as Hopkins. His defence was also equally as good as BH's, given that he had to slip punches coming in whilst BH was static, or against the ropes - already in a defensive position.
Had he mirrored Hopkins' tactics there would have been no fight at all, plus Hopkins was nearly out on his feet in round 11 when he feigned a low blow for about the 5th time, at which point the referee even told him to get on with it.
I agree on the Dirrell fight, I thought he nicked it. He made Froch look clumsy and slow. Possibly he was a bit negative in the middle rounds but rounds 10-12 were his clearly. But, he was in England so maybe that swayed it. You have to win convincingly to triumph on foreign soil, it seems - like Joe against Hopkins
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