Why Calzaghe deserves his place among the greats
When multi major-winning golfers retire, no-one feels the need to discuss whether they were 'great'. They went toe-to-toe with the best, week in, week out, year after year. They imposed their will on the biggest stage. Of course Nick Faldo was 'great'. The only pertinent question is: 'how great?'
Greater than Colin Montgomerie. There are facts to prove it. Faldo won six majors to Montgomerie's none. Faldo glowed like a rod of iron in the heat of battle, while Montgomerie so often wilted.
But greatness is more difficult to quantify in boxing than in other sports. So many imponderables, so many unanswerables. Too many 'ifs' and 'buts'.
The story of any sportsperson's career is littered with 'ifs' and 'buts', and the story of a boxer's career even more so. As one boxer once told me, "if 'if' was a drug, every fighter would be as high as a kite".
Joe Calzaghe's career has far too many 'ifs' and 'buts' for some people's liking. But Chris Eubank was past it. But Roy Jones was shot. If only he'd fought Nigel Benn. Forty-six wins and no defeats, 21 world title defences at super-middleweight, world titles at two different weights. Still not good enough for some. Have a look on the 606 messageboards if you don't believe me.
Part of the problem is boxing's. Boxing is perhaps the only sport in which it is possible to go year after year, ostensibly at the highest level, without competing against the best. Roger Federer, whose greatness is beyond doubt, is unable to turn round to his masters on the ATP Tour and say, "you know what chaps, I don't fancy playing against Rafa and Andy this week, I think I'll try my luck in the Parsons Green Lawn Tennis Club singles instead".
As I have mentioned on this website before, why Calzaghe never got round to fighting Roy Jones or Bernard Hopkins earlier, or the dangerous German Dariusz Michalczewski, or indeed his charmed compatriot Sven Ottke, we may never know.
But it is boxing's scandal, rather than Calzaghe's, that five world title holders in and around the same weight class were able to go fight after fight, year after year, without facing each other.
The proliferation of weight classes also means it is possible for a modern fighter to spend years rattling around in a sparsely-talented division, and it was Calzaghe's bad luck - or good, whichever way you want to look at it - to come along at a time when those marquee names of the British boxing scene had either just hung them up or were fading.
Just as the blossoming of Rafa Nadal has in no way diminished Federer's greatness (as BBC Sport's Piers Newbery recently wrote on this website, "Nadal has made the value of any future major wins [for Federer] so much greater"), then the brutal series of fights between Eubank, Benn, Michael Watson and Steve Collins only served to enhance their legend.
As Calzaghe puts it, "it wasn't my fault that I couldn't fight guys like Nigel Benn, they were just before my time". The flip side is a fighter like Kevin Finnegan, who went 45 rounds with future world champion Alan Minter, another 16 with Marvin Hagler, and never even got a world title tilt. Finnegan died last year, poor, unappreciated, largely forgotten. If he had been fighting at middleweight today, there's a chance he'd have been an undisputed champion.
But let's not get too maudlin, for Calzaghe's is a talent to celebrate. For my money, he would have beaten Benn and Collins. Too slick, too accurate, every bit as tough.
Calzaghe has admitted the bigger fights should have come sooner ("I thought America and the big-money fights had passed me by," he told BBC Sport last year, "I was struggling to fill the Cardiff Ice Rink, fighting guys whose names I was struggling to pronounce"), but when they came, he dazzled in the spotlight.
Against Jeff Lacy, sent across the Atlantic to sort out the uppity Brit, Calzaghe was beautiful. Many good judges called it the finest post-War display by a British boxer. It gave boxing a good name.
Against the Dane Mikkel Kessler, tipped by many to end Calzaghe's unbeaten run, the Welshman showed off deep reserves and tremendous adaptability to weather an early storm and end up a comfortable victor. Calzaghe calls it his finest hour.
The result of his bout with the 43-year-old Hopkins, his first on American soil, was debatable - and, my, did people debate it. But Hopkins' subsequent mauling of middleweight king Kelly Pavlik revealed the old fox was far from finished.
Calzaghe's valedictory fight against Jones in New York last November proved little, other than that Jones had turned to vinegar while Calzaghe was still fine wine. Still, it was an old score settled, and the right time to go. Little left to prove, and no-one around to prove it against.
Calzaghe deserves to sit alongside Ken Buchanan and Lennox Lewis as the greatest of Britain's post-War greats. When Ricky Hatton retires, they may have to budge up to make room.
'Ifs' and 'buts' cling to all four of them like barnacles. However, it would take a brave person to argue against Calzaghe's 46-fight unbeaten run, his 21 world title defences, his 11-year world championship reign.
If you're really intent on seeking out the tragedy in every story, you might want to point out he retired never really knowing how good he was. But tucked away back in Newbridge, admiring his belts, I'm sure he'll cope with your doubts just fine.
Hello. I have been working for the BBC for almost a decade now and cover almost all sports, but particularly cricket and boxing. It would be good to hear from you - just don't be nasty or my mum might get upset.
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Good article Ben, always enjoy reading your views on boxing. Joe, for me, retires as a bona-fide great. What a fighter, what a credit to Wales and Britain. I say fighter as he drew on the warrior spirit many a time. Could he have carried on winning? I think yes, without a doubt. Is it right, then, for him to retire now? Yes. Boxing, more than any other sport, is littered with men who carried on too long and it takes a smart man, a satisfied man - like Joe, like Lennox - to have the strength to say, 'that's it, I'm going out at the top.'
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My only frustration is that he could've been even better. Too many years spent defending the lesser-regarded WBO belt, staying at home, perhaps sometimes unfortunate but also sometimes unwilling and unambitious to go that extra mile to take on the best guys around.
The last 3 years have been a major boost to Joe and he is one of the UK's best ever boxers. But I can't just ignore the many wasted years, no matter how churlish that may seem to Calzaghe's fans.
Probably the right time to go.
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Joe was a great Champion , not a legend and in my opinion , not in the same sentence as Lewis.
He was a decent fighter, who got dropped by 2 old and way past thier prime fighters. the real jones jr wouldve killed him.
Against Roy Quite how he thought it entertaining to show boat when beating up the remains of Roy Jones is beyond me. It was a gaudy spectacle and a measure of his lack of power in a single shots that it went 12 - no doubt as with Lacy it would have been better for the opponent had he just put them away quickly
Calzaghe is in no way a top 30 all time, never mind top 10. As I said, he is a very good fighter who was very carefully managed. There is no doubt that had he faced Bhop or RJ earlier in their careers, both men would have wiped the floor with Joe. To try and compare Calzaghe with mayweather is laughable. Unlike Joe, Floyd has impressive name after impressive name on his resume, most of which he did face in their prime. I absolutely concur with gordon in the opinion that Calzaghe and Jones have similar stories, only I actually would give Roy more credit.
During his prime there were really few mountains to climb and I think he wound up messing his career up with that heavyweight excursion. The physical toll it had to take made him old too soon in my opinion and with out it we might still be talking about Jones as the greatest lightheavy or super middleweight ever.
Back in the real day, LEGENDARY consisted of various rematches with other worthy LEGENDARY fighters (Like Hopkins)
Calzaghes performance in the (traumatized) Roy Jones fight further convinced me of how good Hopkins still is.
To be an IMMORTAL LEGEND (Like Hopkins) Calzaghe needed to fight Hopkins in a rematch, and Chad Dawson, and perhaps a few other fights that develop after that.
If Calzaghe lost in his quest to become an all time legend its ok. It will be what it is. But do everyone a favor and make boxing what it truly is not the joke it has become where paper champions like to retire simply because they are scared to lose.
Hopkins has showed his commitment to the sport and his commitment to being legendary...Will Joe?
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I was lucky enough to witness Joe whup Lacy live and i have nothing but the upmost respect for him. He beat Eubank ( whether he was past it or not is irrelevant) and has has remained an undefeated champion since then. I'm pretty sure several champion boxers have faced "questionable opponents" before Joe and since. You can only beat who is put in front of you. I think he deserves all the plaudits. We have to celebrate the success of Britains greatest fighter / boxer
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He is a living legend. I would love for him to have claimed 50 unbeaten fights, but I suppose we can't have it all!
My only 'if' was Pavlik, and since he got beat, Joe's right... nothing left to prove.
I believe re-matches should be between prime fighters and only with fights in between, so Hopkins & Jones are really a no go! The naysayers will never be happy, but Joe is no spring chicken himself, and there really isn't a young buck to pass the reigns to.
So, good luck Joe, and thanks for the memories!
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Joe is not the same caliber of a fighter as Lewis. Lewis was ducked by American fighters. Calz ducked everyone until Lacy and Kessler. Kessler is the only prime fighter he beat. Beating RJJ is nice but proves pretty much nothing. Now, if he fought Chad Dawson and beat him like he beat Roy, it'll be a different story.
I really think the main difference is that there was NO one left for Lewis. Dawson is a legit fighter and the only fight that makes sense for Calz. A rematch with B-hop would prove very little.
P.S Joe is the man! Do I think he is one of the greatest fighters of all time , NO! WHY? I'll tell you. the only good fighter he has beat while they were in their primes are Jeff Lacey, and Kessler. Now I admit I though Lacey was going to crush him, but after that Fight I was very impressed with Joe. He beat a past prime B-hop, and a former shell of himself Jones. Yes he has those name under his belt, but what are those name worth during the time he beat them that the real question. For those who love Joe, you cant hate on Floyd ( probably a modern day legend) because mayweather has beaten a lot pf people while they were in their PRIMES, (Coralas, Castio, Hatton, Juda, Baldomir, Cheves,Leija, Manfredy, Genaro Hernandez!( the champ),N'Doy,) and the list goes on. Beating fighter in their Primes, before and during your prime is what makes you great. Calzaghe good YES! VERY!, great , sorry but NO!
Calzaghe waited until these guys are past their prime to come here and fight, and now acts as if he is the GOATman. He is still still in the same sentence as Hatton of you ask me. Hatton seeks the best and fighters in their prime. But Joe kept kidding himself his stable in Wales. Enjoy your retirement Joe. TOU REMINDS OF Sven Ottke the man who retired undefeated like you. Alegend NAH, a good champ YES
. Jones, in his day, had enough pace to fight his unorthodox style with his hands down and against the ropes, he just got slower and too old to be effective. Calzaghe does not know how to jab, he slaps like a girl, and again, the fact the judges gave him the Hopkins fight is a joke. Hopkins NOW can still beat him, and did beat him..
I DONT BUY A LOT OF IN CALZ's victories of old men out of their game, just like i hardly give credit to Danny williams fighting MIKE TYSON
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I agree with 77 pence.
Whilst Calzaghe was and is, unquestionably, a very very talented boxer he certainly hasn't proven himself to be a 'great'
I think his record is more a product of 'careful match-making' as opposed to greatness.
The only credible opponent he has actually beaten in the last 4 years is Kessler. I don't believe he beat Hopkins (they should have had a rematch), Jones was washed up and Lacy was a myth!!
I agree that he's been slightly unlucky in that the opposition available is lacklustre but if he really wants to be remembered he needs to settle the score with Hopkins and beat a genuine challenger in who is in their prime. I still don't believe he'd get past Pavlik. Sure, Hopkins did a number on Pavlik, but Hopkins is a wily character and Pavlik's style (one-dimensional) suited him.
Be interesting to see how long he stays in retirement.
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Anyone that thinks Eubank was past it should go back and watch that fight I watched it again 3 weeks ago. It was a battle.
Joe was one of those boxers that was only as good as his competion. I don't mean that in a bad way either. He always came up with goods, adapted well, and always did enough to beat his opponent.
That 50 fight thing bugs me though, but there really isn't anyone I can think of that deserves a shot against him!!!
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A truely great fighter and in my opinion probably the greatest British fighter of all time, to go your whole career undefeated is unbelievable. Hope you enjoy your retirement Joe, you deserve it.
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It's possible to argue the toss about his record until the end of time, but there's no doubting that he had all the toys. Great jab, blurring hand-speed, great combinations, sound chin, great resolution and, until his hands started to let him down systematically over the past four years, decent power.
In British terms, the post-war comparison with Lewis (L) and Buchanan is apt - these are the best three of the past sixty-five years or so. The comprehensive nature of Hatton's loss against the best he faced leads me to place him, with Hamed, Conteh and Turpin, a rung below the top three.
For what it's worth, I make Calzaghe Number 5 of all fighters to come from these shores. Only Buchanan and Lennox Lewis and the two undeniable superstars of around World War 1, Ted Kid Lewis and Wilde, sit ahead of him, in my view.
There may always be a slight annoyance that Calzaghe left it so late to make his proper mark, but he did at least get there in the end. Had he retired at the end of 2005, "So what?" would have been the only possible response. As it is, he deserves to be remembered as one of the great British sportsmen.
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What are peoples thoughts on Carl Froch? Can he replace or surpass Joe?
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I rate Froch as a good fighter, who can maybe take the Champs seat for a while, but the Calzague's of the world are a class above.
Again, I say this knowing Joe may only work as hard as he has to in the ring, but that's because he adapts to a fight, so no matter how good his opponent, Joe could always had one more gear.
People can say all they want about Kones/Hopkins, but until you can invent a time machine I have to disagree. Joe would have adapted no matter when and done what he needed to for the win. See Kessler!
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None of the guys he fought(other than a 43 year old Hopkins) is HOF worthy. For that reason alone, i dont know how people can say he's a HOF fighter.
Lacy didn't have a chance in the world because he was a grossly over rated fighter who was fighting a grossly under rated fighter.
Calzaghe thinks he has nothing lefdt to prove but he hasn't proved anything fighting two 40 year old fighters
The only thing Joe proved was that Roy Jones should have retired probably after the RUIZ fight
I peronally think he got the split decission win because of the comment that Hopkins said 'about never losing to a white boy' which was absolutely uncalled for
Joe proved that with Kessler , ( a decent champion) one can win with all the support at home ..
oved that If you fight un unproven fighter, overated nonentity like Lacy you can pull up a clinic. Dont tell me anything about Lacy because prior to fighting Joe Lacy was a champipon with a belt, but had not fought anyone
Joe defeated two fighters that are far more accomplished than him that were way past their primes. A good win vs. Kessler. The rest of his 43 wins were against no-name bums.
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He's been a fantastic fighter and ambassador for the sport and for Britain. He retires as a legend of the ring no matter what anyone says. As Dirsy's said in the article, every fighter's career is littered with ifs and buts and Calzaghe's is no different. But who knows who did all the ducking and diving over the years? Who knows the reasons why all these fights didn't pan out?
All we have to go on are facts and the facts state the guy was champion of his weight division for over 10 yeas, over 20 defences, won every meaningful belt at his weight division and now retires undefeated. If you could offer that to any up-and-coming fighter just starting out in the game they'd offer you half their future earnings for a career like that.
Great article as well Dirsy, now get back where you belong commentating on the cricket, we could do with some cheering up the way our boys are going at the moment.
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jeremy-griffiths - Totally agree, quite relieved he's decided to call it quits on top.
Ryushinku - To be honest, I agree with you, and from some of Calzaghe's comments over the last couple of years, I think he probably thinks he wasted some prime years as well.
77pence - With the greatest respect, you do seem to contradict yourself. You say Calzaghe's not in the "same sentence" as Calzaghe because he got dropped by two "past their prime" fighters, while completely ignoring the fact that Lewis got dropped by two pretty average heavyweights. And unlike Calzaghe, Lewis didn't get back up...
therennes - I have to agree, I thought Hopkins won that fight.
gareth423 - Have to agree about the "only as good as he had to be" line. Anyone who saw his fights with Kabery Salem and Sakio Bika can attest to that.
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It's been a long time coming and boxing is better off without protected paper champions like Joe Calzaghe.
Joe Calzaghe is a typical example of a boxer who has been protected through careful management in what must be one of the weakest divisions in boxing's history. Calzaghe's "reign" consists of 21 title defenses in a division and at a time where Sven Ottke made the same achievement.
Until Jeff Lacy, which came nearly 10 years too late, Joe Calzaghe was virtually unknown. And since then, beating an unproven Mikkel Kessler, a shell of Roy Jones Jr. and a controversial decision over Bernard Hopkins is not the stuff of legends.
The argument from Calzaghe's fans who claim his 10 year "reign" is enough to grant him legendary status is absolute nonsense. Sven Ottke and Dariusz M made 21 and 23 title defenses - they're hardly great.
Hopefully boxing can pick itself up with fewer WBO-like titles and less Calzaghe-like management where the best fight the best.
Goodbye Calzaghe, it's been a long time coming.
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just one word ... RESPECT
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77pence, who did Calzaghe duck then? Come on, give us some names. If you compare Calzaghe's record with that of the other undefeated 12 stone champion of this era, Sven Ottke, Calzaghe's record is in a completely different league.
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Who did Calzaghe duck? He ducked America for the best of his career until Hopkins was 43 and Jones Jr. was 40. Calzaghe could've made fights with Hopkins, Jones, Taylor, Winky, Pavlik (but instead chose a 40 year old shell of Jones), Glen Johnson, Chad Dawson (an example of today), and the list goes on.
Calzaghe was happy to fight the Manfredos of the world with 35, 000 of his delusional fans supporting him in Wales.
Compare Calzaghe's record with Hopkins' or Jones' - big difference.
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It goes without saying at this point Calzaghe is the best post war fighter from Britain, arguably the best ever. Lennox Lewis was great but his losses were sloppy, when Joe had sloppy performances he still won. The only debate over Hopkins was how easy Joe won, only deluded americans and JC haters could doubt the man. Hopkins wasnt finished, and even if in some possible way you think JC wasnt that good well Pavlik showed us all in his own way that JC is. History will be kinder to Joe than current critics and it will take someone very special to topple the super tough welshman. Kessler,Lacy,Hopkins,RJJ, nobody else could ever follow. Every champion has easy defences, theyre not all classics, just a shame that even some haters are too naive to realise this, Ali, Marciano, Pacman, they have all had their poor fights with questionable Ws. Big Up JC from an englishman who is proud to say its a gritty welshman that tops the lot for Britain!!!
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You forget that Jones Jr was chastised for years for avoiding and ducking quality opponents during his career.
Dawson fighting washed up johnson and Tarver is hardley decent credentails either (he was lucky against Johnson too)
Hopkins has lost twice to one of the most over-rated fighters in the division in Jermaine Taylor. Hopkins' record hardley stands up to close scrutiny to mark him as a legend. I don't think there's a boxing fan on the planet that would have wanted to sit through 12 rounds of Calzaghe v Hopkins II.
People make up their own minds about Calzaghe. If you're to believe Frank Warren he ducked everyone out there, if you believe Calzaghe he was being ducked. There's probably truth in both but when Calzaghe fought he was exciting to watch and I personally enjoyed following his career. Not a great like Lewis but an undisputed champion and therefore one of the greatest boxers to come out of Britain.
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Julius, tell us when these fights could have been made then. Why don't we talk about historical facts rather than conjecture? When could any fight with Sven Ottke have been made, when Ottke never fought outside Germany and his record doesn't stand up to the same level of scrutiny that Calzaghe's does?
How many world champions does Calzaghe have on his record compared to his contemporaries? What more do you want?
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Ah Julius - the stalwart 606 Calzaghe Hater.
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Why on Earth would beating Dawson add to his legacy? Dawson is a nobody, Kessler has a better pedigry. The onyl slight can have against Joe is the fact that he didnt fight RJJ and Hoppo in their prime. Well that my friends is because hes been in his prime the last few years and Bhop and RJJ were in theirs over TEN YEARS AGO. He wouldve beaten Bhop anyway. Ill agree RJJ would probably have beaten him but thats because he was in his prime and Joe was nowhere near his. Different eras so stop bleating about it
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Oh Bhop is a great but i think youll find he only really has a blown up Trinidad, Oscar and a dead on his feet Pavlik on his record. How hes a nailed on cert for HOF and Joe isnt is anyones guess.
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These naysayers wind me up.
He battered Eubank, Collins (best of the rest) ducked him quite right too, average boxer Benn would have been absolutely destroyed - like Lacy but worse.
Kessler would have beaten all of the above.
Calzaghe beat who he had to beat and beat them well for the large part.
Let's have some big respect for him - Lewis and Buchanan - that's right in my book. And miles ahead of media lovies and journeymen pro like (sir?) Henry Cooper and Frank Bruno.
RJJ was in his prime 96-01, Calzaghe 04-07.
46-0 in the hardest of all sports - number 1 super guy and robbed of at least 1 more Sports Personality of the Year
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It's been a long time coming and boxing is better off without protected paper champions like Joe Calzaghe.
Joe Calzaghe is a typical example of a boxer who has been protected through careful management in what must be one of the weakest divisions in boxing's history. Calzaghe's "reign" consists of 21 title defenses in a division and at a time where Sven Ottke made the same achievement.
Until Jeff Lacy, which came nearly 10 years too late, Joe Calzaghe was virtually unknown. And since then, beating an unproven Mikkel Kessler, a shell of Roy Jones Jr. and a controversial decision over Bernard Hopkins is not the stuff of legends.
The argument from Calzaghe's fans who claim his 10 year "reign" is enough to grant him legendary status is absolute nonsense. Sven Ottke and Dariusz M made 21 and 23 title defenses - they're hardly great.
Hopefully boxing can pick itself up with fewer WBO-like titles and less Calzaghe-like management where the best fight the best.
Goodbye Calzaghe, it's been a long time coming.
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Who cares...this guy beat a bunch of nobodies his whole career, and nobody in America ever heard of him till he decided to fight 2 over-the-hill 40+ fighters in Hopkins and Jones. The decision over Hopkins was questionable at best, and Jones should have retired after beating Tarver in the first fight like 5 years ago. The only thing I'll give this jobber credit for is having a hot girlfriend and the ability to take a fight against washed up fighters. Ok, obviously Hopkins still has it at his age but in my opinion Hopkins beat him.
Calzaghe was a great fighter but still left a lot of questions to be answered. His only 2 victories the really stand out are against a shot RJJ and a questionable decision against BHOP. Jeff Lacey was extremely over rated. Who knows how big the Kessler win was because Kessler really does not fight any quality opponents. Joe also withdrew against Glen Johnson what 3 or 4 times? He should have fought these guys 6 or 7 years ago and we would of seen how truely great he was.
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One of the best post war boxers Britain has been graced to have. Shame to see him go as i would of liked to seen Froch vs Calzaghe but not to be. Wont be long before Hatton calls it a day aswell, then we will be left with "gone in 60 seconds" Kahn.
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Well said RobVilla.
The Naysayers aren't even critical for the most part. They seem to just be nagative.
Calzague has done enough to be talked about with the best. We can always talk about imaginary fights, but the fact is he was unbeaten, and can anyone honestly say there is a fighter around at the moment that could?
Should he hang on until he's 40 odd and there is new blood to take it from him?
Give him his due. Most of the legit criticisms are boxings (and the corporate shills that run it) fault (which maybe why UFC is growing), and not Calzague's.
The man served his time and made us proud.
On a funny note, I wonder what his tv deals are! I hope it's not bit part movie acting.
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The argument about greatness will go on but, for me, the fight against Lacy was his finest hour. Tipped to lose by most commentators, including many experts from the bbc, Joe destroyed his opponent in one of the best fights I have ever seen. I'd like to tip my hat to the man and say thanks for renewing my belief in the sport that night. Joe is a deserved champion and he should be celebrated as one of our finest ever boxers
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77pence the only thing I'll give you is that you are entitled to a really pathetic, illiterate opinion
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The naysayers and critics can gripe and moan as much as they want but they cannot get away from what Calzaghe has achieved.
Julius's pitiful comparison to Sven Ottke does not stand up to even cursory analysis. 77pence's whines about nobodies doesn't stand up either when you compare him to the records of other champions.
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Apart from Kessler and Lacy; all of the name fighters that JC beat were well past their best. Let's not forget that many of his defenses at supermiddleweight were against middleweights - most of which he won on dull as dish water performances - Sako Bika and Kabery Salem being two prime examples of this.
Saying that JC is a better boxer than Jones Jr is like saying Terry Norris is better than Sugar Ray Leonard - utterly ridiculous. Jones Jr was nearly 10 years past his best and had been heavily stopped twice. Likewise Hopkins was 40. Had he fought them in their primes it would have been a completely different story - which is why Frank Warren made sure he didn't.
JC wasn't a big puncher and whilst he had a great cardio engine; he slapped (and was never picked up for it) far too much. He talked himself up constantly - he was his own biggest fan. He fought outside the UK 3 times - 2 of which were his last two fights.
Had Warren not promoted both JC and Reid then the decision of their fight may well have been a fairer reflection. One thing was for sure JC definitely didn't want a rematch.
The casual boxing fan raves about JC and proclaims him "Britain's Best" - it will be interesting to see how the cold light of history views him.
JC may figure somewhere in the lower reaches of the British top ten - but greatest ever - nonsense!
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77pence
'Hopkins over the hill'
'Hopkins still has it'
'Calzaghe a jobber'
'Calzaghe a great fighter'
All from the same post - make your mind up!
All you're doing is showing everyone you have the wit and intellect of a peanut.
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4 time ABA champion 11 years world champion undefeated in 46 fights record speaks for itself well done joe have a good retirement.
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Nobody knows why the big fights didn't happen. Except for one, Hopkins, who suddenly demanded a trillion dollars for the fight becuase he got scared.
Who cares about the haters, they are not important
Calzaghe, a legend
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Blackknight, nobody is arguing that Calzaghe should be above Roy Jones in the all-time pecking order. I doubt even Calzaghe would argue for that. What I am arguing for is that Calzaghe should be recognised as a modern great, as he deserves to be.
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Mr Ben Dirs,
All boxers have their detractors. But Calzaghe i reckon has the highest number and i am one of them. He is not the only one i suspect, infact i feel similar about Lewis also.
According to one Welsh guy, Calzaghe is not even the best Welsh boxer let alone British, European or world. Apparently Jimmy Wilde was the greatest Welsh boxer.
I genuinely feel that if Calzaghe had the hunger he could have gone to the USA during the 1990s and challenged the best. But according to Warren 'he was afraid of flying'. But that fear disappeared as soon Bernard Hopkins lost to Taylor twice and RJJ lost 3 times. Both men were pretty much finished and thats when Calzaghe suddenly appears in the USA! Hopkins indeed pulled out a shock against Pavlik but that does not change the fact that he is too old. At 44 he should not be getting in the ring.
I can go on all night talking about the 'fraudulent legacy of Calzaghe but there is no need. It has been discussed many times on 606
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It's funny how all the haters claim to be the 'experts' yet anyone who's opinion that Clazaghe was/is one of the greatest is percieved to be part time.
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blacknight,
you are correct about Reid. Calzaghe snuck a decision there and refused rematch
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Great article. For all the opinion being poured forth on here about how Joe didn't beat x y and z in their prime etc, it is worth saying that regardless who he fought he always found a way of winning. Regardless of him fighting against great defence, big punching, fast hands etc he always found a way to turn a fight his way. That makes him a great and discredits anyone claiming that other fighters would have beaten him. Based on what Clazaghe produced that looks unlikely and at best pretty subjective.
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sonofthedestroyer, it's also funny that warren comes out with this status as soon as Calzaghe dumps him.
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I think that reading a lot of these comments just illustrates a large section of the British public's mentality towards their best quality sportsmen-why are many of us so quick to try and talk down the success of our best athletes?
What Joe has achieved is absoluteley amazing. No question about it. Anyone can pick apart Joe's record (as you can pick apart the record of ANY fighter) but the 47-0 is is really something. Joe managed to fight a mixture of contenders and world class opponents, in a pro career that spanned over 15 years without ever slipping up. Not many pros (no matter how 'padded' their record) can say that. Both Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis were KO'd by journeymen fighters in their time but Joe always found a way to win even when going into the fight as the supposed underdog.
I think it's pretty poor that there are people saying that 'the only decent fighter that Calzaghe fought was Kessler'. Some of you have short memories, Chris Eubank, Charles Brewer, Ritchie Woodall, Robin Reid all tough fighters that Joe came through in some memorable battles in the 'pre lacy' years.
I think the only blot on his legacy is that he didn't fight the truly elite fighters 7-8 years earlier because i think with more youth and power on his side he'd have destroyed any of them on his day, James Toney, Roy Jones Jnr etc and this would have proved without a shadow of a doubt that he operates on that sort of level.
I think that when Kessler goes on to dominate SMW division and Calzaghe is long retired, like Lennox Lewis before him, people will really start to appreciate what sort of a fighter he was. Unique style, exciting, fast, illusive, strong, courageous, and always professional. He came up the hard way and proved everyone wrong time and time again.
Deserves his health his money and his retirement. I'd say he also ranks in the top 4/5 british fighters of all time.
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I did like Reid, and conced that a rematch would have been in the interest of boxing. Reid blew it with his love of the ladies and the 'life' though.
Calzague has always trained hard and been hungry. I would have loved to have seen him fight Collins (medical? not ducking).
Anyhow, the man deserves some credit. He has helped bring in new fans, he has been an ambassador, he does a great deal for charity. Oh...I nearly forgot. He won 46 fights unbeaten too!!
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Plus, I don't think I've ever heard the British public say anything nice about anyone for about 20 years.
We only build up underdogs so take the sadistic pleasure in pulling the rug out.
We seem happier to laud people for PC reasons (ie making ourselves feel better for seeing special things that the majority disagree with).
I think we are the only nation that doesn't support our own. Even when we say something good there is always a "but...".
Just be bloody proud of Joe. Don't come up with hypothetical BS.
Treasure what he did and wish him the best!
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Thanks for mentioning Kevin Finnegan, I'd never heard of him before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVhakVyXh8g
Appreciate it.
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Good Boxer, shame he never went Prime v Prime against a Top P4P Fighter. He may have lost a few, but would have done a lot more justice to a somewhat mediocre career considering he has talent
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its great to see all these people who are against calzaghe deciding whether he is a legend or not.i will never knock anyone in sport unless i am better than them. so if i go by what i read here,there must be an awful lot of 47-0 boxers commenting on here.
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lol green1773. well said.
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observer123, probably the worst comment of the lot. to call someone with a 46-0,2 different world titles at 2 different weights,mediocre is a measure of what you know about the sport
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The difference between Calzaghe and Hatton, Lewis and even Naseem is that all the latter 3 actively sought out the best in their division to fight in a way Joe never did, Yes all three have suffered defeats, but prior to that Lewis actively called out fighters like Bowe, Ruddock and Tyson, Hatton put his record on the line against Tszyu and Mayweather, Naseem went up against Barrera in his pomp, all three tried to unify their titles, something Joe actively avoided until the fag end of his career.
As for who avoided who in Calzaghe's prime years, are we really to believe that the other champions in Joe's division were more afraid of Joe than Hatton's contemporaries are of him? or Prince Naseem's were of him? give over, when Bowe ducked Lewis everybody knew about it and who did the ducking, the fact is Joe didn't want to fight anybody who wouldn't come and fight in his back yard.
All Joe had to do was go to America and make the fights, Hatton is fighting a prime Pacquiao in his next fight, that's the sort of fight that makes greats, not beating up 39 year old former greats. Hatton can make the fights, Hamed could make the fights, Lewis could make the fights or made sure that people knew who was stopping the fights, whay couldn't Joe make the fights earlier.
Joe was a good fighter, very good even but he did duck the best in his division for far far too long to be considered great. I don't think being unbeaten is the be all and end all.
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Joe is not a legend in my book and never will be however i think lewis is and hatton could beand ill get slated for that but oh well, Yes he may have a fantastic record with 46-0 but what good does it mean you dont fight the best when their at there peak even in 2001 if we went and fought ODLH,Hopkins and Jones Jr and lost all three of them and had a record of 43-3 id have more respect for the man.
Im not saying his a bad boxer because to beat someone like kessler you have to be good but was he great i suppose we will never know, i think he would have beaten hopkins in his prime for sure ODLH and Jones Jr im not entirely sure on.
His a great boxer and of the greatest british boxers there will be but im afraid there will always be a what if element about him which hatton and lewis will never have.
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I think history will judge Joe more favourably than some of the posters on here. He's a credit to Britain and deserves congratulations and respect for how he has dedicated himself to his sport and for what he has achieved.
It's very easy (and British) to be negative and try and pick holes in the things he didn't achieve but then you can pick holes in Marciano's record quite easily... but is that important? is that what people remember about him?
e.g. Do people remember that he beat Joe Louis when Louis was clearly past it (age 37), won title from past it Walcott (38 years old - 16 defeats), beat shot Ezzard Charles twice (age 33 - 10 defeats), beat ancient Archie Moore (39 years old - 19 defeats) and ducked Patterson ...or do they remember that he retired as the undefeated heavyweight champion of the world??
...I'd also just like to remind people about Terry Marsh. Another British fighter who retired as an unbeaten world champion (albeit with 1 draw... and a no contest with Frank Warren :-)
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Joe was a great fighter and retiring unbeaten is I think the right thing for him to do.
I agree with some previous comments regarding the some of his previous years and the quality of the belt he held, however not really Joes fault and more a fault of the way modern boxing is organised too many world champions and belts.
I think the biggest compliment I could pay him is that if there was one World Champion at each weight Joe would have won a title for sure but would probably not have remained unbeaten.
I also didnt enjoy his showboating in the Jones fight but he beat him fair and square.
He fought some great fighters at probably the right time Hopkins, Jones and Eubank but lets not forget Hopkins destroyed the highly rated Kelly Pavlik in his next fight so he was hardly washed up.
Think his best fights were Kessler and Lacy I wish him well and resists the temptation to return. I somehow think we have not seen the last of him yet!
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I sincerely hope Joe looks after his money and never gets back in the ring. Yes, there will be always someone to beat but the someones will be younger and younger whilst he gets older and older.
Great career! You can't ask for more than to retire as a healthy unbeaten world champion with a bit of money.
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Sorry - he would have battered 2003 ODLH who was what Welter Weight at the time.
Hopkins avoided him to protect his record against lighter and/or mediocre fighters. RJJ did the same - no Hopkins rematch.
Those guys never gave Joe a match as they had to much to lose until Joe graciously gave them a match up when he had lots to lose.
Other than ODLH who after being beaten by Hopkins and seeing what happened to Lacy didn't fancy having his brains in his pants for the rest of his days.
Calzaghe fought them all and beat all who had to beat.
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I'm dissapointed, if joe had fought froch he would have laid the GB greatest to rest.I think joe has been fastastic but he could have renvigorated uk boxing by fighting froch.
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With the greatest of respect to Carl Froch, a fighter I admire and respect enormously, I believe he would be well beaten by Calzaghe. We saw in the Pascal fight that his defence was wide open. Calzaghe may not have the power he once had, but he would have enough to pick Froch off at will in my book.
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Total legend, thanks for the memories Joe. Not in the same sentence as Lennox Lewis? That is the best joke i've heard in years! Lennox Lewis, the Dion Dublin of boxing. Calzaghe- THE greatest British boxer of all time...by miles.
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There's no point saying he beat everyone who was put in front of him - he should have fought Jones and Hopkins 7 or 8 years ago - then he would have been a legend if he'd have fought and beat the best of a generation whilst in their prime.
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That's like saying Larry Holmes wasn't an outstanding heavyweight champion because he didn't beat Ali in his pomp. It doesn't take account of the sporting reality of the time.
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Only in terms of longetivity does Calzaghe stand tall amongtst the best in the sport.
Lennox had fights against more dangerous opponents and reversed any losses.
Buchanan went overseas to claim his title and defeat the best in his division. He was still boxing hard against Roberto Duran in the 13th round when he got hit low. One boxing magazine at the time had Buchanan ranked 17th of all time (all weights).
Where will Calzaghe be ranked in such a list?
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I agree RE: Froch
Tough fighter, but he would have been repeatedly decked and bewildered by Calzaghe.
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I love how people say that Calzaghe- or other fighters haven't beaten other "great fighters" because they haven't/hadn't been over to America to fight.
These so called "great fighters" are built up in the American media to sell shows on PPV TV and are not the best in the world (right now the heavyweight is not so bad, just no overhyped Americans to sell shows!)
Lacy, Palvik, Paulie Malignaggi... are good examples of this! (PROBABLY Chad Dawson too). Jusat look at HBO.com for future world beaters who turn into NO MARKS!
There are better Europeans, South Americans and Africans than these to fight.
Kessler still hasnt fought in USA, against a so called big fighter and he would dominate them!! Hopkins won't fight him because he'll lose for no money.
Last point- Calzaghe has defended his titles with one hand on a few occassions, having broke the other- sign of a true Great! True Warrior! True Champion!
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Certainly it is an achievement to undefeated. But let us look at this objectively, rather than letting flag waving nationalism cloud the issue. He fought some big names...but all on the downside of their career. He did not have knock out power, and was not a great fighter in the true sense of the word. He was a good fighter who had a lot of luck timing his fights.
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How do fighters earn the right to be called "great."? They beat other "great: fighters in their prime. For example:
Hagler v. Hearns
Duran v. Leonard (I and II)
Leonard v. Hearns (I)
Hagler v. Duran
Hagler v. Mugabi
Hearns v. Duran
I think you get the picture.
Joe is a nice guy, and a class act. He is a good fighter nothing more nothing less. He is not a great fighter.
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I get the feeling that is Calzaghe was Mexican/Phillipino/Puerto Rican/Panamanian he would be classed as a great on here by everyone!
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xpat73 - '..did not have knock out power'
70% KO's/TKO's says he did.
Has anyone KO'd Hopkins, Kessler, Bika, Jimenez, etc? I don't think so.
he is a 100% nailed on certainty to be in the hof. 'Good' fighters don't get into the hof, exceptional ones do.
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JC guy only fought bigger names when they were done. He would NEVER fight anyone good until he was sure they couldnt fight anymore. his Resume is a joke, he would sit in Wales and talk garbage about other fighters but wouldnt fight big names in US...not until he new it was safe. In 20 years time years, no one will remember him, if they do, Sven Otke will be mentioned as well
All in all Joe Calslappy ooops Calzaghe can retire undefeated for all I care, but don't give me an argument that he deserves to be compared to all time greats like Marciano, Ali , Hagler, Hearns etc. He's not even in the same league as a Roy or Bernard, Hatton Lewis even dare I say DLH
Lets just look at the title reign of Calzaghe. He won a vacant title against Chris Eubank. Eubank had already lost his title to Steve Collins and goes on to lose his final two fights. He was done at this point in his career. Can't blame a young Calzaghe for the fight but its a paper championship.
Sobot and Ferreyra where his two first defenses and both guys are C level fighters [and thats being nice]. Next up is Reid who was just beat two fights before that by a guy coming off a loss. Reid is not a bad boxer but at this point was deserving of a title shot. He also lost his next fight and almost every fight he ever had against better talent. Thornberry is next. Now this is a true bum. His previous opponents had records of 5-36, 18-23, 1-0, 5-17, and 0-2. Maybe that gets you a title shot in England but over here that is a complete joke. David Starie is his next pathetic excuse for a title defense. Again how many bums does he get before doing a real defense?
Omar Sheika is next and the first resemblance of a real fighter but even he lost EVERY title bout he was in. Next Joe tries to pass Richie Woodhall as a title contender. Woodhall had just been beaten by Beyer and than faced a guy who had lost last 5 of 6 fights. Again these aren't guys a title contender should be facing.
How can you defend a guy with that type of resume. Look at the records of the guys he's beaten.
Like you said, John defended his title a bunch of times, is undefeated, so if he goes on and beats 2 washed up featherweights, who were the best feathers of the 90's, Barrera and Morales, does that make him an all time great? No way, just the same goes to Joe. Sure, Hopkins and Jones were great in the 90's, but they were in their 40's when Joe got them. Bernard wasn't completely shot, so I give Joe a little credit there, but it still wasn't a decisive win. Calzaghe's certainly a very good fighter, but unproven.
Bernard and Roy are still way better than him, by a long shot.
I would have liked to see Joe face Dawson, a prime, young, talented light heavyweight. Had he fought and beat Chad Dawson, (which I think he is capable of doing) then I don't think there would be any doubts on his legacy. Kessler was basically another Calzaghe, protected overseas fighter. But a pretty good fighter. Lacy is garbage. Protected Kessler and a 43 year old Bernard by split decision are Joe's signature wins. and his claim to fame is defending his WBO alphabet title 20 something times against 2nd rate competition, and waiting until Roy and Bernard were over the hill to fight them. Roy was completely SHOT. So that's not the big deal Joe makes it out to be. "I beat 2 great legends, Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones Jr." But you forget to mention they were a combined 82 years old!
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77pence what is it with you, calzaghe and hopkins, you really have no idea what your talking about i take it from your ramblings that you have never thrown a punch yourself in your life in or out of the ring. Just tell me this has calzaghe personally offended your family or is hopkins donating 77pence to you every time you mention his name because you seem to have some real issues there. Strange man
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Calzaghe is a talented fighter but the biggest undefeated wuss ever! The only decent fighter he beat in their prime is Kessler. And I'm not saying he didn't have a lot of skill but he carefully chose his opponents
Sorry I cannot respect a man that boasts after beating SHELLS of great fighters. He calls himself the best fighters without beating anyone great in their prime.
I cannot respect a man who has fought virtually his whole career in his own protected country. He never had to face any adversity like the fighters who in the US regularly.
I cannot respect a man who has decided to retire when he is in the financial prime of his career. He is as popular as ever, but he decides to retire because he is afraid his record would be blemished by many of the contenders.
Most importantly, I cant respect a boxer who calls himself one of the best but doesnt fight the best. That's the problem with boxing and that "undefeated record". Boxers like Calzaghe are so scared to blemish that undefeated record that they go through their whole career not fighting the best opponents. Total disgrace. What happened to the glory days with Robinson, Chavez, Leonard, Ali, etc. who couldnt care about their record, only fighting the best. Gone, we need more warriors and less of the Calzaghe's who ruin boxing by not providing the best matchups.
The most UGLIEST, SLOPPIEST, PITTER PATTER FIGHTER who ever lived!!! He beat an over hyped young prospect. He beat a "Contender." He pitter pattered and beat a tattooed undefeated Champion who never fought anyone with a name. He pitter pattered and squeezed out a questionable win against a Veteran. He convincingly beat an over the hill "way past his prime" slick veteran. And yet, he finds the balls to say, "I'm retiring." Calzaghe, you haven't beaten anyone!!
It pains me to see you fight anyway. I'm so glad you're gone!!
P.s. Wake your father up!! He's still convinced that you're the best thing next to slice bread!!
I'm so glad you guys are gone!!!
I could go on and on and on, the only time Calzaghe will get the respect is if he fights 1 or 2 more contenders like Hopkins and Dawson, beat them and you have respect. Sorry but Joe Calzaghe is overrated and a disgrace to boxing.
Respect is due, but legacy is questionable.
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Ben - good blog, and good to see that you (a) actualy post replies and (b) aren't averse to being disgreed with. On the cricket blog, they remove your comment if you criticise Aggers! Poor love!
Anyway, I agree with the sentiments about Lewis, and more so. Yes he was a great fighter, but he got smoked by two completely average fighters, both of whom have been beaten by some other average heavyweights. McCall even lost to Bruno, who most would agree was very average.
Lewis seemed to be struggling for respect until he beat Tyson, but Iron Mike was completely past it by that stage - look at the guys he lost too since. Lewis didn't duck anyone, but he didn't beat that many prime fighters. I'm not even sure Holyfield was 100% at the peak of his powers in their fights.
In my view, his best fights have ot been that widely chronicled - Grant and Golota spring to mind, but they were not big names.
It seems that politics plays such a big part in boxing, and you have to have a mix of the right skills AND the right image to be considered great. Look at De la Hoya for proof - he got totally humiliated against Pac Man, but still was in the frame for a massive pay day against Hatton if the Hatton-Pacquiano fight fell through. Purely on his reputation.
Calzaghe beat everyone that they put in front of him and I don't recall him ducking anyone. Perhaps he just missed out on that career defining fight (like Lewis had when he beat Tyson)
You could make a sort of (vague) comparison with Marvin Hagler. He struggled to gain recognition for ages, whilst Leonard got it in droves. I think Hagler won their fight by the way. Point is though, he never ducked anyone and basically got on with winning fights. But because he didn't do as much PR he didn't get the recognition.
46 fights unbeaten has to put joe near the top, if not right there at the top.
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Well done Joe. Glad you're retired. Some really exciting fights.
In terms of best Bristish fighters of all time, Tommy Farr hasn't got a mention that I've seen. Another great Welsh fighter. Johnny Owen could well have been on that list if circumstances were different.
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Thanks Ben. I agree 100% with your article. Calzaghe IS a great fighter. I was there at arguably both his finest hours - his classic demolition of Jeff Lacy and that tough scrap with Mikkel Kessler. On both nights Joe oozed class and greatness.
I'm a firm believer that - as a fighter - you can only beat who you put in front of you. Granted, Joe fought a few 'gimmes' as WBO champion. But he also fought Reid, Sheika, Woodhall, Brewer, Mitchell, Bika and Eubank as well as Lacy and Kessler.
To end his career by doing what people thought he was afraid to do - fight an American on their turf - merely underlines his greatness.
Joe, have a great retirement. You've earned it! See you in Canastota in five years at the IBHOF induction!
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77 Pence - you've got real chip on your shoulder about Joe being considered great. Are you from across the pond?
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Calzaghe has a great record, but he is NOT a great fighter.
The only exceptional name on his resume is Hopkins. Who has Kessler beat of real note? Why not fight Jones in 1998 not 2008? What has Jeff Lacy done since he lost to Calzaghe? Why fight Peter Manfredo??
If you look at some of the other P4P Legends at the moment, like Pacquiao, who has world class names such as Morales, Barrera, Marquez and De La Hoya on his resume, the difference is startling.
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good article Mr Dirs - balanced and well thought out. Please now go back to the cricket world and distract me from the looming disaster there!
Its quite amusing to note that as you scroll down, the anti-Joe comments get longer and more hysterical. (and illiterate too in some cases)
Lets face it, the guy is one of the greatest Brit fighters of all time. There are some criticisms to be made, but hey, let's make it objective, not this ranting that certain posters think constitutes a balanced argument.
I think that a lot of the criticisms of Joe, eg 'ducking' opponents is more a problem with boxing as a whole rather than fighters individually - what other sport has four world champions, not to mention the plethora of lesser regarded belts? Look at David Haye - he has gone straight for the jugular by trying to land championship bouts at the first opportunity, facing credible opponents, and has ruffled the feathers of the boxing world right up! I would have thought that seeking out live and dangerous opponenets was to be commended.
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Sorry to see you go Joe, you were truly an awesome fighter.
Yes, you've had you're detractors and mockers, but you stayed at the top of your game for so long you deserve to be called 'a legend'.
There really wasn't a boxer out there who could beat you, and Jones Jr knew that, which is why he spent so long avoiding you, only finally agreeing to your bout once he realised he was going to get a major pay day.
The Lacy and Kessler fights were simply stunning fights - the patience and discipline you showed in those fights really does mark you down as one of the all time greats. Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise.
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Excellent article, Ben.
I am overjoyed that Joe has decided to hang up the gloves now, undefeated as i would have hated to see his legacy tarnished by defeat to an up and coming youngster with a point to prove and a legacy of his own to build.
Calzaghe is a true legend, a true hero and a sporting icon, he has been and is a fine ambassador for boxing and for Wales and the UK to be admired and to be proud of.
He has been a great boxer and he has achieved all of this in good humour and in genuine and respectful manner.
His greatest fight for me was the Kessler fight. He destroyed a fantastic boxer in his prime.
Ultimately, I am releaved that Calzaghe is going out, unbeaten, at the top and as one of sport's all time greats.
Congratulations, Joe, you make me proud to be British.
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Joe is a legend end of that argument. He tried to arrange the fight with RJJ and Hopkins years ago,but they wouldnt take it as the pay day wasnt big enough for them-so whose fault is this? Who is ducking who here? Joe fought everyone that was willing to fight him-and beat them, what more can he do? Even if he beat another overrated American in Chad,or Froch, Joe would still have people doubting him. Lewis got beat by average guys and took a rematch to beat them,Joe adapted during each fight to beat his opponent,average or class. He deserves to be known as a legend,46-0 and the americans wouldnt fight him,says it all.
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Joe Calzaghe was as near to perfect as you can get, in terms of pugilism. His winning mentality is unsurpassed and his ring smarts even exceeded Bernard Hopkins'.
Joe Calzaghe is without question the most gifted boxer Britain has ever produced and in a few years time you will notice people's perceptions change as they begin to realise that a modern great performed during their lifetime. Then the universal recognition will follow.
Happy retirement Joe, you've entertained and inspired me over the years. And for that, I am forever grateful.
PS - Good post LFCGiant
PPS - xpat - he was a great boxer, maybe not a great fighter, but then thats why he wasn't in the ufc. Carry on with your media machines who constantly get found out, and carry on sledging someone who you can't ever prove would lose.
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anybody who thinks calzaghe is the greatest british fighter of all time is making british boxing look ridiclous
hes a good fighter but not great
and nowhere near as good as Bhop or RJJ in thier prime
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Infected Beef, your comments are insulting; you would appear to have no knowledge of boxing or sport whatsoever.
To say that you have "no respect" for Joe Calzaghe is pathetic, ignorant and embarrassing for you. I am certain that whilst you are happy to cast aspersions behind the safety barrier of an internet pseudonym, you would not make such comments to his face.
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Infected_beef
Any pro boxer who puts their life and health at risk to offer us entertainment and make a living should be respected.
the only ring you've probably been in is a hula hoop.
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Younger boxing fans might think im crazy, but there used to be a time when fighters, especially in the lower weights would fight each other in great fights, and not fear about 'legacy' and being unbeaten, but merely worry about testing themselves against the best and it provided for a golden era of boxing.
I shudder to think that Marvin Hagler could have been called a great if he had ever beaten up a 43 year Jose Napoles and then cemented his legacy with a victory over a 40 year old Carlos Monzon.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I think Calzaghe deserves his legendary status.
I understand some of the doubts but in the complicated world of boxing politics how do we decide which fighter is ducking which?
I have no doubt on occasion Calzaghe took a couple of soft fights but you don't think he'd have rather had some more big name fights when he was in his own prime? Sure Hopkins in particular was getting on in years but his recent mauling of Pavlik shows he far from shot, Jones on the other hand maybe was just to long in the tooth as a fighter but he much closer in age to Calzaghe
There are enough impressive wins in there to show his class. It is a shame that he didn't mix it with some of the guys mentioned sooner but thats life.
People talk about Lewis being a legend, a class fighter no doubt but the couple of losses on his record I imagine probably still make him squirm.
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top blog!
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Matches should probably have been made with German supermiddle world champions Beyer (who was quickly KOed by Kessler) and the overprotected Ottke (who always fought in Germany and won a few terrible home-town decisions), but Dariusz Michalczewski (possibly the most protected champion in the history of boxing) was a different weight class (WBO champ in light heavy and cruiser) and retired in 2004 before Joe moved up.
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Calzaghe, like Lewis before him, is not everyones cup of tea because he concentrated on his alround fighting skills and fought in a measured way to win, not just chasing knockouts and trying to knock peoples heads off which makes fighters a lot more popular with the public. People harp on about him being a 'slapper' and other things, but how would his detractors mastermind an opponents tactics to beat him? What style of fighter couldnt he deal with? Good luck sorting that out.
Everyone knows that top quality and dangerous European and British fighters won't get fights in the states in their prime. American promoters are not stupid, they hold all the aces in terms of numbers of audience and money in boxing, they don't risk titles and big fights leaving their shores and happening outside of American prime time, and also have to satisfy the desire of the American public for home grown champions. Really good British fighters will only ever get big fights in the states when there is more to be gained than lost for their opponent, and that is when they are getting old and are more vulnerable, or their opponent is looking to either rehabilitate their reputation or launch their reputation by taking someone with a good record.
I feel sorry for the people who are so one eyed they couldn't enjoy Calzaghes fights. The performance against Lacy, one of the hottest fighters around when he fought him and favourite to win the fight, was absoloutely majestic. No doubt he has taken some wrong turns in his career, but who hasn't? He himself would admit in the years prior to the Lacy fight he was getting bitterly frustrated at not being able to get bigger names in the ring with him, but I'm far from convinced the reasons behind that were just down to him. Forget his record if you like, just watch his fights. Top fighter.
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To me this is very simple.Calzaghe was around when some of the great boxers could and should have fought him.It was they who chose to avoid him and promoters who refused to have their man fight him-it's clear for all to see why...We should congratulate Joe i say- Joe, enjoy your family and don't come back!
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For me 2 knockdowns in the first round in two fights rang alarm bells that, maybe on his one last final fight, he'll get caught with one of those and thats the night father time has decided to call. Imagine the headlines on sports writer pages "Calzaghe loses to Froch or Chad Dawson (No disrespect to them ) in the first round".
Quit while your'e ahead. He's done well
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To 77pence (post 70).
I understand the argument (you've got good points) but I don't get the animosity. You come across like Joe has committed a personal affront to you (which I assume he hasn't?).
Ranking fighters as great is subjective. For me, Mike Tyson is the best heavyweight ever but logically I know that is related to how old I was at the time when I was watching a kid not much older than me destroying everyone on the planet. Older fighters are stats in a history books so can't possibly have the same impact on me. No one else will ever come close in my eyes (rightly or more likely wrongly).
I think there's a danger we rate the fighters of 20+ years ago over the modern ones because we've forgotten the ins and outs of their careers evolving and just been left with an overall impression of them.
I was interested when you also said "...but don't give me an argument that he deserves to be compared to all time greats like Marciano..."
In post 54 I churlishly picked holes in Marciano's record. He fought a few great fighters way past their best and didn't fight Patterson. In some ways it's a record comparable to Joe's but history has treated Marciano well.
"Do people remember that he beat Joe Louis when Louis was clearly past it (age 37), won title from past it Walcott (38 years old - 16 defeats), beat shot Ezzard Charles twice (age 33 - 10 defeats), beat ancient Archie Moore (39 years old - 19 defeats) and ducked Patterson ...or do they remember that he retired as the undefeated heavyweight champion of the world??"
I'm interested to know if you think Joe will be treated well by history?
And also whether you think in 20+ years you might be telling your kids/grand kids that the new kid on the block "is no Joe Calzaghe"?
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Calzaghe is a true boxing legend. Forget all of this 'if he fought Jones Jr / Hopkins years ago...' JC blew away the big american hope Jeff Lacy (the next mike tyson?!) with the most flawless boxing display I have ever witnessed (being a 24 year old).
I agree with a lot of the threads on here in that Pavlik, prior to his humiliation by Hopkins, was the only genuine BIG fight out there for JC. So, since Pavlik's loss he has nothing to prove. Chad Dawson / Carl Froch, these guys don't get a legend like Calzaghe going.. so there are no big fights out there left for JC.
Boxing fans of my generation will always rate JC as the best ever British boxer, let's be honest, he was a heck of a lot better to watch than Lennox.
46 / 46, job done, money in the bank, place in the boxing hall of fame secured.
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Congrats on a remarkably successful career and enjoy your retirement in sunny Blackwood. The best bit of news I heard yesterday was hearing that he was born in ENGLAND. You've done your fellow englishmen proud Joe!!!!!! That's for my Welsh father-in-law ;-)
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Just have to say the last few years of Joe's career have been truly incredible. He has achieved the unbelieveable and I am so proud as a Welshman and a Brit to have been at the big occasions (especially Lacy, Kessler and Vegas) where one of my countrymen have truly delivered the goods and never let us down. His dedication, spirit and ability have been put to fantastic use and it shows how sensible he is to bow out now at the very top rather than become a cruel parody of himself like so many of his peers.
He is a true legend of sport and his legacy will be immense. Thanks for the memories Joe and good luck in your new life!
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to fatdwaarf (post 94)
I feel you are absolutely right that time has a great effect on how champions are looked on, and we probably wont be able to judge accurately about Calzaghe, or any other recently retired fighter until a few more years down the line.
I think the Marciano example is exceptionally valid, and i cant see those who rate Marciano very highly, could detract from the record of Calzaghe, who you could say are quite comparable.
Both beat marquee fighters of their time, but it would be foolish to argue that Joe Louis was the force he once was, as we all know he was fighting merely to keep the IRS at bay, just as it would be foolish to suggest that Roy Jones Junior was at his best, when all saw his scary aging over night between his greatest triumph and they being ko'd by bums.
In terms of how he will be viewed, In Britain he will be lauded as one of the all time greats, because of how we hype our sports stars here, in America he will be ridiculed as a protected fighter, because he is British - i suspect the truth lingers somewhere in the middle.
Im not a Calzaghe fan, and my one regret is that i dont think we will ever know how good he could have been, because he didnt test himself early enough, and there is too much emphasis in the modern age of keeping as perfect record as possible. Regardless of losses, i would certainly put a fighter like Sonny Liston, over Marciano in terms of boxing ability, in terms of achievement, then obviously Marciano has the edge.
In terms of achievement, no one can take away the decade long reign and 20 defences, but in terms of ability, we cant truly say, because we never saw him go one on one with an all time great who wasnt haplessly old.
A question to you fatdwaarf which might help illustrate my point, how do you think Calzaghe would have got on in the golden era of Hagler/leonard/duran/hearns/Benitez?
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I think a lot of this criticism comes from American commentators who just can't believe that someone from outside their country could be great.
Calzaghe was victim to all the same criticism before each big fight: that he didn't punch hard, wouldn't fight outside Wales and was, broadly, a sham.
Everyone told us he wouldn't beat Lacy (there wasn't any talk of Lacy being over-rated or anything other than the real deal before that fight) - he destroyed him.
Everyone told us Kessler would show him up. Calzaghe won.
Everyone said he would be showed up as a pat-pat merchant by a true great like Hopkins. Guess who won again?
Then it was, Roy Jones Jr will desroy him. He won't beat a true great. It was only after Joe won that RJJ was suddenly past it.
Hatton had the same when every US commentator told us how great Paulie Malignaggi was and look what happened there (BTW America does have a true great in Mayweather).
Yes, Joe stayed a home a lot and didn't go to America, but if he was such a no-one why didn't all those great US boxers come over and whup him in his back yard. These things work both ways.
Great hand speed and movement, a better puncher than he was given credit for and a truly great champion.
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I think the important thing to remember is that at this point in time, who else is there that would prove a suitable opponent for a man of Calzaghes record? Mary Popkins he has already beaten (admittedly tough fight but he edged it), RJJ is washed up, Pavlik doesnt deserve a shot after the hiding he took from Pops, Mundines style would be interesting but hasn't done enough yet and looks like hes going to fade into obscurity, Dawson is too inexperienced and doesn't deserve a shot yet, and Kessler he outpointed brilliantly. If Froch goes on to beat Taylor and then possibly Kessler and/or Popkins which I doubt he will, then there may be a credible challenger and at that stage, and calls for Calzaghe to come out of retirement to reclaim the unified SM belts would be legitimate.
Truth is for the next 1-2 years, there is no reason why an ambitious fighter like Calzaghe should resort to rematches purely for financial gains. They say that Joe is still pretty much intact mentally and physically - who knows maybe there might be a fight a couple of years down the line, providing the belts have been unified by that stage, which would be too good to refuse for Calzaghe and a chance to make history along the same lines as Sugar Ray Leonard. Otherwise I thank JC as a fan for the way he fought everyone they put him in against.
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I will never think of calzaghe as a boxing legend, without the kessler and lacy fight he would be the biggest paper champion of his time.
Even though he was 46-0, in his prime he should have risked fighting Jones Jr or BHop. But they didnt even respect him or they would have called him out in their prime, not at the end of their careers for a money making second-rate fight. I only hope most people dont become ignorant of this as proper boxers want to prove they are the best by beating the rivals at their peak.
However I dont think this was joe's fault, just his managers. And showboating in the Roy Jones Jr fight annoyed me.
I think joe will be forgotten worldwide just like nassem hamad was, hopefully the Hitman can go on for a bit longer and get another shot or at least give us some wars in the ring. As I thought he wasnt in peak condition against mayweather.
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As we all know sport is incredibly contentious and boxing more contentious than most. Some would argue that Calzaghe retires unbeaten and, having been world champion for over a decade, does so as a modern great. However, due to the seemingly incessant political wranglings that so envelop boxing, the questions and the doubts about the greatness of Calzaghe rumble on and will do so long into the future.
The problem lies with the standard of opposition that Calzaghe fought and systematically dismantled in Cardiff, and also with the dwindling powers of messrs Hopkins and Jones Jnr when these fights were belatedly staged.
There is, of course, no definitve answer to this debate. I would place Joe amongst the greats of British boxing by virtue of his record alone. A multi-weight, unbeaten world champion has to be given due reverence. In the pantheon of global greats, however, I would exercise caution before elevating Calzaghe.
For whatever reason, there were too many poor opponents, too many fights that failed to stir the emotions and too many missed opportunites when it came to fighting the generation's truly fine boxers in their prime.
Calzaghe retires at the right time. There is no one of note still to fight, certainly no one who would further enhance the Welshman's legacy. Rematches against opponents already vanquished do nothing but swell the bank balance and, as we have seen on countless occasions, potentially damage the health of the fighter. Joe should be rightly proud of his achievements and be content with being a great British fighter.
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Post #99
"Then it was, Roy Jones Jr will destroy him. He won't beat a true great. It was only after Joe won that RJJ was suddenly past it."
Whilst your examination of the other opponents may be accurate, there where plenty of people who highlighted the fading force that was Jones once he come back down from heavyweight - a contenious points win against tarver, then being KO'd and outpointed by tarver, then a one punch KO at the hands of journeyman Johnson - he was 3-3 in his last 6 fights before Calzaghe, and only scored wins over no-hopers and a man even more washed up than him in trinidad. There is little doubt that Jones Jnr was a spent force long before he fought Calzaghe.
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I still can't believe people doubt Calzaghe's greatness.
For me 46-0 says it all for two reasons.
1) To go unbeaten for over 10 years is incredible. It means that whatever shape he was in going into the fight, how many bones he broke in his hand during the fight, or how durable the opposition - when it really came down to it - on the night no one was ever better than him.
2) As Ben says, every boxer has 'ifs' and 'buts' on their record. From what most doubters say Calzaghes relate to BHOP and RJJ. But he beat those guys! He beat a BHOP who is still tough and recently beat a quality fighter in Pavlik. Ok RJJ is old but plenty of people have fought him after his prime, only Calzaghe had the class to retire him. It takes two to tango and BHOP and RJJ both went in to the Calzaghe fight expecting to win. Like 44 other opponents they were proved wrong.
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Just to probably reiterate a million points made above, but Calzaghe is a legend and will go down as an all-time great. He won't get the appreciation he deserves until probably another 10 years. The same thing happened with Lewis and it's only been the past couple of years that he has got true recognition.
I was there for the Lacy fight on that EXTREMELY cold Manchester night, and I was witness to what can only be described as a perfect performance. 12 rounds of demolition. The same people who say Lacy was a pretender are the same people who tipped him to knock Joe out in 3.
Regardless of who Calzaghe did or didn't fight and when, I think his box of skills alone are worthy of legendary status.
He's getting out now with his record intact, and no-one can argue it's not the right thing to do. There's no-one out there for him to fight and make it worthwhile, and if he continued he'd end up becoming a joke and ruining his past glories a la Holyfield.
Also in my opinion Calzaghe in his prime would have beat Hopkins in his prime. I think a prime RJJ would have been slightly too much for Joe's chin but it would have been a very close fight.
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Calzaghe - A modern day great? Hmmm...
Why did he not go to America 4/5 years ago to find the big fights? For me, he's one of these fighters that was simply happy to sit on a world title. Other fighters give up titles to get shots at the big fights (Hatton being the obvious from these shores, Pacman from overseas) and having an unbeaten run when you're fighting bums like Manfredo Jr is pretty worthless.
Why did it take all these years for him to take on BHop and RJJ? Rather than fight them when they're on the wane? For me a prime RJJ would have comfortably beaten a prime Calzaghe, people can say RJJ was protected but who the heck was there to fight? Plus i think he was just that good that he made decent fighters look average.
If you desperately want to make a fight happen you can (i.e. Froch v Taylor, the latter had no interest in the aforementioned), but Joe for me was happy to fight infront of 25000 delusional fans who were paying to see him beat some mediocre top 10 ranked WBO muppet.
He also went down in my estimation as a guy when he fought RJJ. The guy was cut badly, he couldn't move for being knackered through age and his pride was the only thing keeping him going. Rather than jab his way to dignified victory Calzaghe chose to taunt a guy that shouldn't have been allowed in the ring in the 1st place. Truly and utterly disgraceful.
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Being from Gwent and admittedly a little biased it's been tough to stay out of this debate but I think there are points being overlooked here that ought to be thrown into the mix.
Initially Calzaghe was very unlucky to turn pro at a time when the British Super-Middleweight scene had just fizzled out, the superfights had happened without him and he missed out on the opportunity to show early on in his career how good he was at that time. That said he still floored Eubank for the first time in his career and Chris was only 31, hardly the same age as Hopkins and Jones when he fought them recently and I have little doubt that he would have cleaned up that era.
He claimed the WBO belt at a time when the WBO were looking for credence, Calzaghe was giving them that and they were as keen to keep him as their champion as Calzaghe was to keep the title. In the 10 years that he held the title he beat everyone in the division that would fight him and in Kessler you saw a fighter completely dumbfounded by the increased skill levels of his opponent.
People are saying that De La Hoya, Jones and Hopkins should automatically be considered greater that Calzaghe. I'm struggling to see that argument for the reason that Calzaghe knows when to get out of the business, he's not getting beat up for a few big pay days because he knows he's achieved all there is to achieve. He's wealthy and healthy and to me that is successful enough in this sport, one look at Muhammad Ali should remind us what a brutal game it is when you take one punch too many.
And as far as the unbeaten record goes that's just phenomenal, Lennox Lewis will tell you that every opponent has a punchers chance in a fight and on the occasions Calzaghe has been put down he's got back up to win.
Isn't it funny how the so-called greats are past it when they are beaten? Well Joe will go down as one of the legends that wasn't.
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I still think Calzaghe leaves the boxing scene with more questions than answers.
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Five star post
98. At 2:13pm on 06 Feb 2009, General_Searso wrote:
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Joe suffers from the same hype as Gerrard and Lampard in football. Just because they are our best in a specific sport does not automatically make them "world class" or "great."
The fact is that Joe did not beat any great fighters who were in their prime....apart from Kessler...and I perhaps wouldn't class Kessler as a great fighter either.
Now that might not be his fault....but it is a fact. Fighters like Hagler, Leonard and Hearns , Aaron Pryor and Arguello were great. Joe is not in their class....sorry.
No I am not a yank.
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I think you people need that are talking down on JC need to have some respect for the man.Hes gone his whole pro life unbeaten and beat some of the best boxers in history.Anyone who says B Hop was over the hill are stupid in my opinion Bhop beat Antonio tarver and then winky wright two prime fighters so tell me whats all that about?he showed heart and come off the canvas to beat him infront of an away crowd.Ok Jones Jnr was a abit of a mis match but anyone with jones jnr on his record with a w next to it must be doing something ok.And also for the ppl that say lacy was overated .Overated or not JC stoped his carear because wat has he done since then? And then theres kessler a Proven Super Middleweight with 2 world titles.And for use ppl that know boxing the way JC adapted in that fight to beat kessler was truly amazing!And for use ppl that have said JC has ducked Fighters FRANK WARREN ducked ppl for the mandatory defences that made his wallet fat! Jones Jnr And BHop wer in there primes and differnt times to JC so it would of always been a miss match so all you JC haters have some respect for the man Sir Henry Cooper? SIR JOESEPH CALZAGHE!
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Who was it who said 'the greatest accolade a sportsman can recieve is respect and praise from his peers'
Hagler, Dawson, Taylor, Hatton, etc have all come out in recent days saying he'll go down as an all time great.
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Who are Wayne Powell, Gilbert Baptist, Roy Ritchie, Melvin Wynn, Segundo Mercado, Joe Lipsey, Andrew Council, Robert Allen, Syd Vanderpool, Morrade Hakkar and William Joppy?
They're all names on Hopkins' record, but really none of them are legends are they? Right, so You CAN fight people that aren't huge names and still be a legend? Oh, I'm glad we've cleared that up... He did beat Oscar De La Hoya, a man who won his first world title at super featherweight, so having moved up, what, 30 lbs over the course of his career that can be described as remotely reasonable as a fight? Not trying to take anything away from the old man, but if you want to pick holes in ANY fighters record you can. Just proving my point really.
while we're there, what about Percy Harris, Fermin Chirino, Danny Garcia, Thomas Tate or Merqui Sosa? Oh they're some of the people Jones Junior beat who went on to obscurity. Again, the argument that Calzaghe fought a lot of bums is fair, but only in the sense that any world champion gets the mandatory challengers that are just not that good. It's part of the game, and you really ought to talk to the governing bodies about it if you think it's wrong. Frank Warren is part of the problem too, he has a habit of not putting fighters into risky fights, and even holding them back in my book. Tyson wouldn't have been the youngest world champion if he had Warren picking fights for him, that I'm sure of.
It takes more than 2 people to make a fight happen, and when there's fighters that wouldn't travel to fight Joe, why should HE travel to fight them? It's a two way street, and you can't attribute blame to one party without asking questions of the other.
Did he beat rule the strongest Super Middleweight division of all time? Nope (at least not in my opinion). That doesn't take away the fact he held a world title for ten years.
Mr Froch is starting to learn that a world title belt isn't a ticket to The Garden and the big bucks. If the Taylor fight doesn't happen and he ends up taking a mandatory "unknown" fighter, what then? Is he going to get stick for not fighting Taylor?
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Calzaghe is without doubt the best British boxers ever to grace our shores..... Granite chin and a tenacious work rate. Appreciate him for what he was and probably still is.... Our best; Ricky even admits it! He may not have boxed everyone at their prime but promoters and purses make fights. Watch his movement; it's no wonder the yanks side stepped him before he side stepped them and enforced a display that should leave no question marks!!
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I think Joe reputation as a great will get better in retirement.
My reasoning, Hopkins will want to get Joe to fight again. I think the only option for Hopkins would be to fight Kestler, or Chad Dawson. The former being the best option.
I think kestler will beat Hopkins, and easily.
This will help Joe's reputation as being a great, the question will then be "should Joe fight Kestler again,
IMHO Joe was a great fighter, and the posters who said he only did enough for the win are correct. I saw him fight Robin Reed and it was a stinker.
Great fighter, yes. Legend that nearly was.
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@114
"Without doubt" is a pretty bold statement!
Nevermind being the best ever from these shores, i have doubts he was even the best in or around his weight division from this country in the last 15 years!
My reasoning being...
Watson's career was tragically cut short, but i'm left in little doubt he was easily the best out of Benn/Eubank after dismantling them both, until Eubank caught him in one of the most bizarre finishes to a fight i've seen.
Eubank took Calzaghe 12 rounds after he'd taken the fight at extremely short notice and was already a shot fighter. Calzaghe openly admits that this was his hardest fights.
Lets not forget Benn, a guy who had the biggest heart in the ring i've seen and who carried a big punch but not the finesse/ring smart of the above two.
Those 3 didn't have to go to America as they were the big draws around the late 80's/90's, they came here (McCullum being the highest profile fighter).
To mean someone is "great" means they've had defining fights that have gone down in history. Morales v Barrera (all 3 i could watch time and time again), RJJ v Hopkins have all gone up against guys who are not only the best in their division BUT the BEST in the P4P rankings. People can harp on about Kessler, but for me that was against a guy who would get dismantled the same way Pavlik did against BHop - they both box in straight lines and are one dimensional.
At the end of the day Calzaghe never went after the big guys until they were finished/past it. Did he ever really really stretch himself? Hatton craved the #1 fighter in the world and got him through effort, he could have sat on his backside and defended his IBF (when he had it) title at the MEN for the past 5 years, but he went after the best around his weight at the time!
Someone who stayed in their comfort zones, fighting at their home stadia, beating bums for years and years whilst leaving two modern greats in RJJ and BHop doesn't constitute the clear cut "greatest British boxer" tag for me.
All greats have 'ifs' 'buts' 'maybes' 'whys' by their name, difference is JC has about 10 years of those.
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what ,for the most part,a load of tripe. i wonder how many of the posters calling joe have actually ever put on a pair of gloves or climbed in a ring let alone won a bout.i suspect most of the critics are of the watching through a lager haze type of "fan".leonard respects joe ,acknowledges his decision and to me that says it all.one of the all time greats respects joe c but you lot don't.i bet half of you don't have a clue what goes on behind the scenes,purses, venues, dates ,promoters,approval of opponents ,mandatory defences, having to be sanctioned by the board of control,the guy has fought and beaten everyone who has been put in front of him.give joe credit where it's due.the man has retired undefeated ,financially secure and without his brains scrambled. i do believe that if he had been badly injured in the ring you lot would have been the first to post tributes,you can't forgive joe because he's actually done something,what sad lives you lead.
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To the above, so because the vast vast majority have never boxed means we're not qualified to voice our opinions? Steve Bunce hasn't boxed and he's got his own boxing show!
And yes Leonard says he's this and that, but that's his opinion - and i (among everyone else here) have mine.
A great British boxer but not in the top 50 all time greats, why? Because he's never had a career defining fight and that is in part due to him not looking for them. RJJ and Bhop were there to fight around 5 years ago, not to mention the German pair of Ottke or Dariusz Michalczewski. That's 4 fighters he never fought in their primes - Fair enough you may miss one but all four? Gimme a break. People say he can only fight who was around/put infront of him, then why didn't he push for one of those four?
That's my opinion and mostly fact based, because my opinion is different to yours doesn't mean i 'lead a sad life' - grow up sunshine
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Joe Calazaghe was and is one of he best all time best BRITISH fighter, but by no means a legend. When i saw the fight with Bernard Hopkins, I was in shock when Joe Calazghe got the result BHOP one that fight. Lets look at this fact, BHOP is 43 yrs old imagine BHOP even at 40 what he would have done to Joe.
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Joe Calazaghe was and is one of the best all time best BRITISH fighter, but by no means a legend. When i saw the fight with Bernard Hopkins, I was in shock when Joe Calazghe got the result BHOP one that fight. Lets look at this fact, BHOP is 43 yrs old imagine BHOP even at 40 what he would have done to Joe.
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Firstly, let me make it quite clear I am NOT a "JC hater"! Which is what all people who disagree with the JC Fan Club are called.
The facts speak for themselves. Eubank was past his prime. Kessler lacked experience and under-performed in JC's own back yard. Lacy was highly over-rated. Jones had never recovered from 2 KO's and was a shadow of his former self. BHOP was too lazy, and deserved to lose the decision.
JC and FW could have unified the SM division, but FW was not going to take too big a chance with his best pension potential. He could have moved weights earlier on in his career, he didn't....why not?
To be great, JC should have done anything to make the big fights happen. He and FW didn't want to, end of story.
JC will go down as one of the best British boxers, but thats as far as it goes. I think Collins, Eubank, Benn, RJJ, BHOP would all have put JC away early if fought in their prime.
Well done Frank Warren for a fantastic management job, thats what he is there for - to make money......In fact I think FW has more rights to a HOF place than JC does ;))
Again, I DO NOT HATE JC, I just don't like BS.
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BTW Does anyone know what is happening with Clinton Woods? Has he hung up his gloves?
PS. And there is a British boxer who did manage to make a fight with a prime RJJ......
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And he got destroyed, but at least he had a go!
If i head JC spout how he beat '2 legends in their own back yard' again i may commit a naughty sin. Yes JC you beat them, did you beat either in their prime? No. Did, if you really wanted to, fight them in your prime? No.
He boxes like it's an amateur fight in terms of scoring with the knuckle part of the glove. Very boring to watch.
I challenge anyone to argue how he has a legacy, he's fought twice in America (which is where you prove yourself) against OAPs.
I'm sorry, but JC you are a lightweight compared to a heavyweight legend in the league of Ali and co
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I think 77 pence is bang on the money... To be a great you have to have fought great fighters in great fights. Joe's 2 headliners Hopkins and Roy Jones Jnr were not victories in but pay days. When Joe fought Roy Jones everybody new Roy was passed it but just hoped maybe for one night he could rekindle his magic... Hopkins was a tough decision did Joe win did he not? personnaly I would have given it to Joe, but with the question mark over the fight a rematch should have taken place to shut up any critics, thats what real greats do fight whoever whenever. So great career Joe but to me you lacked ambition. A lot of boxers could of had the same career as you with 0 losses but they didn take the easy way out E.G De la Hoya Holyfield nowadays Pacman. There view of being a boxer " ill fight anyone anytime
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What is wrong with some of the people that leave comments saying joe calzaghe isn't a great what i would like to know is whether or not they think that they could do what he did as a fighter because i don't think so and i also think that there forgetting that hes the first britsh fighter to do what he achieved EVER so stop saying what if he fought this guy at this time in his career etc. and give him the respect and accolade that every boxer deserves for getting in the ring and achieving Legendary status as a fighter and i believe he will have the same success as a promoter as he did as a fighter.
Good luck Joe and thank you for being a legendary champion.
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To the above - Yeah no British fighter has retired undefeated. So that means he's one of the greats? What about Sven Ottke? He retired undefeated with the likes of Branco, Byron Mitchell and Charles Brewer on his CV. So why isn't he rated just as highly as Calzaghe?
Fact is he got a split decision against a Hopkins who was still in shape yeah, but at that age your reactions aren't what they were etc. Had he fought Bhop in his PRIME then i don't think JC would have won more than a few rounds.
Get your head out of your bum and look at the facts, he didn't fight anyone of any note, he didn't wanna leave the home comforts of Wales and that's why i don't have him anywhere near my top 50 all timers!
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Can i ask coxy001 hav u got a personal hatred of joe calzaghe becuase thats what it seems. Sven ottke only ever won world titles because most if his fights were in germany and they were rigged if he ever fought outside of germany he would have lost. how can you argue with calzaghes record your forgetting about people who he did fight the likes of chris eubank ok he wasnt as young as calzaghe but no one can stop that can they, reed, woodall, sakio bika, jeff lacy, manfredo, hopkins, jones jnr,shieka, veit, brewer, mitchell all either good fighters or greats at the end of the day he has nothing left to prove. Its a change to how boxers retire to late where they are left so messed up that they don't have much of a life after boxing he retired when he won all he could win and prove all he wanted to prove.
Why don't you check joe calzaghes record and see who he has beaten some of the people who you mentioned brewer, mithcell there also on calzaghes record and he knocked out mitchell in 2. Ottke didnt go over to usa and give jones jnr a boxing lesson did he now answer me that.
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coxy iv watched b hop fightin 4 a long time and his recent performances are his best. his experience has moulded him into the best defensive fighter out there right now. therefor he would have less chance of beating calzaghe in his youthful days. if it wernt for the flash knockdown it wud hav bn very onesided anyway. u can argue against any fighters achievments, even ali. it doesnt change facts tho. try all u like to belittle calzaghe. it jst goes to show how narrow minded u are. p.s u are questioned on hatred of calzaghe because an educated boxing fan wouldnt deny calzaghe of the recognition he deserves
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To retire unbeaten is an awesome achievement in anyones book....but i would have liked to see his fight with `roy jones`back in the late 1990`s....no disrespect but roy jones was just too good. calzaghe has fought some great fighters...in his time...but it was never the opponents `time`he avoided a few fighters for a while. i also would like to say `iron mike tyson`was the best fighter ive ever seen...its a disgrace how the `media and law courts treated him...ruined him. lewis avoided tyson until he knew tyson was finished.when tyson had all the champion belts..he fought the best fighters in the world... `razor ruddock, bowe, pinklon thomas` to name a few...those were hard men...then where was it `tokyo`...he got a beating off `douglas. didnt take a genius to see tyson was not focused at all....something in his water that night....and the 13 second count for `douglas`you have a think back to the odds on tyson losing that night....40 to 1 or around that....D K had a few million on that fight im sure...
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I don't have any hatred for JC, if you read my comments before i acknowledge him as one of the best fighters our countries seen in recent time.
As for reevesi89, he gave Jones Jr a boxing lesson because he was massively over the hill. The old RJJ was just as quick (if not quicker) than JC and had the power to boot.
And pundit2308, so his performances against Taylor were world class..? Or did he look slow and easy to hit hence why he lost both?
Again, i don't have any 'hatred' for JC, but i do disagree with him being as hyped as he is - The guy only went to America in his last year to face 2 guys he could and should have fought 5-8 years ago. The RJJ fight was an embarrassment, especially when JC started to mock when RJJ could barely stand up due to being old, tired and shot.
Ok, i ask this - What career defining fight has JC had that was against a prime, world rated fighter? LIKE a RJJ or Bhop 5-8 years ago..? NONE, why? Because he ducked America for the home comforts of fighting the likes of Manfredo in Cardiff.
If anyone mentions Kessler i'll scream - Who has he ever fought before and fought after?! FACT is JC stayed at home for all his career - does that make him one of the all time greats? No. Did he ever fight the ONLY 2 fighters that were worth fighting through the late 90's early 2000's? No.
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You can pick apart any fighter's resume at will if you want to. Take RJJ - Who was his only career defining fight? Toney - but then who else stands out? Ruiz - one of the worst HW champs ever? Hopkins was nowhere near his prime when they fought as well. Making a living off fighting D-list fighters throughout his prime. Not to mention being done for steroid abuse (which a lot of people forget). Should he go down as an all time great?
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I think you've just listed them there for me...
Toney was the undisputed #1 in the P4P rankings at the time, RJJ hand speed and movement was simply stunning.
Ruiz - Yeah, not a great champion. Still, for a guy to start at light middle and beat a guy fighting at heavyweight is a massive achievement.
Hopkins was 20-25 fights into his career and 28 years old, not to mention being ranked the #1 middleweight at the time. Prime - no, world class, yes.
And the drug you talk about was an over the counter drug that was actually legal until 2004, and that it was from memory only the IBF who listed it as a banned substance.
Failed drugs test or not, RJJ has achieved far much more than JC and i don't know why i've had to rumble through the obvious
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Well done, you've just proved my point. You can dissect anyones career and use the facts to debate your point until you're blue in the face. It works both ways.
Is that so difficult for your grape like mind to comprehend?
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some fighters are to dangerous for there own good. calzaghe unfortunately fell into that bracket. why would rjj and b hop take such a challenging fight against calzaghe wen they dont reap the rewards for beating a household name? thats why they neva met in the 90s coxy. calzaghe neva ducked he jst strugled to get the big names in the ring with him for obvious reasons. to answer ur question how does eubank fit the bill? u can call him shot but watch the fight and ul see a great performance by both fighters. plus i cant see any1 out there whol beat kessler right now. ye b hop lost twice to taylor who played him at his own game. they were very close fights tho wernt they very little between them. taylors world class anyway he shud hav ko'd palik in 1st fight and the second was vclose also.
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and yes he stayed home most his years. the yanks stil threw their best at him and he wiped the floor with them - sheika, brewer, mitchell, lacy, lets not forget his wins ova british world champs reid, woodhall eubank. the same wudv hapend to rjj and b hop at any stage of their careers, calzaghe was a better fighter 5yrs ago anyways hes lost his ko power these days. i must agree his showboating against rjj was a poor show tho. your right about one thing atleast coxy
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also have u seen jc's amatuer record! you'l struggle to pick holes in that one guys
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Pundit, my Eubank point was that he took Calzaghe into 'the trenches' having only had a very limited time training, let alone a decent period to get himself down to the weight with ease. A great fight though, but it's the same argument in that we'll never know if JC would have beaten a prime Eubank - for obvious age reasons. If JC had gone to the States in his last 20s i think he wouldn't have had to have waited too long to fight either RJJ or Bhop. I'm not doubting the guys boxing ability, just for me he never truly had a career defining fight when he took on a great in his prime and beat him, which i think is partly because he wouldn't go to America.
As for Kessler i'd fancy Pavlik to beat him. I'll admit against Bhop looked slow and very lethargic, i don't know what was wrong with him that night, especially when you look back at the Taylor fights where he's blisteringly quick in comparison.
If he was 30 right now then we'd probably be looking forwards to a summer super-fight against either RJJ or Bhop, such is the current climate of all the big matchups being made. As it is there's always going to be the doubters (like myself) because his measure of greatness always will have a big IF beside it.
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ok coxy your comments are very fair. i doubt many in the boxing world would HONESTLY agree with arguing against calzaghes achievments tho. if pavlik got in the ring with jc then it wouldv been another lacy display. pavliks vgood at middle but shud stay at that weight or hel just get bullied. hats off to b hop tho that was a fantastic performance which shouldnt be taken away from him by focusing on a below par pavlik. if they were to do it again wed see the same result
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I loved watching Joe fight but the RJJ bout should not have been his last. It was a poor choice of opponent and a painful spectacle for those of us who know what RJJ could do in his prime. He once produced a knock out blow from having both hands behind his back! Calzaghe just showed us the difference between being in your prime and being shot - hand speed and foot work.
Calzaghe has never had a re-match and there have been some good cases for them. Look at the split decisions over Reid and Hopkins and the strange stoppage win over Mitchell, who'd hurt Joe in that very round.
Fighters get defined by opponents and though I saw the Hopkins fight for JC, winning a rematch with Hopkins, who has been the best for so long and is still kicking, would define Calzaghe brilliantly. A 2-0 record over Hopkins is far superior to a heavilly disputed 1-0.
But there are some folks who just don't get it: Joe Calzaghe is a great, a true great, better than Eubank, Benn and probably Collins, who were all greats ten years ago. He is in the debate as to the best British fighter ever. But to enter the debate as to the best fighter ever would need a definative opponent - Eubank and Benn had each other then Collins had the both of them; Foreman had Frazier then Moorer; Tyson had Berbick, Holmes and Spinks (then drugs and women); Ali had Liston, Frazier, Foreman; Liston had Paterson; Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, Duran, Benitez all had each other; Lewis had Tyson, Holyfield and Klitchko (any who dispute - LOOK AT THE MAN'S FACE AFTERWARDS). Julio Cesar Chavez doesn't figure, despite holding an incredible sequence of a hundred fights unbeaten, because of another strange stoppage win over Meldrick Taylor. Rocky Marciano doesn't figure because of the mob culture around at the time. Joe Calzaghe doesn't figure because he's never had a rematch with Hopkins.
But, in reality, Calzaghe will never be seen as a true great whatever he does now because it's all too late. People need to believe a fighter can do anything, like with Ali when he was young, saying he was the greatest all the time - it seemed like the sky was the limit, the potential for anything was there. It's the same for Tyson and for Leonard - Joe's too old to be believed in because every fight is his last - he's not blooming anymore; he's already picked from the garden and sitting in a vase.
But this is irrelevent outside of PR land. For those who know their boxing: the man's a legend.
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JOE IS PURE CLASS AND WOULD HAVE BEAT ANYONE PUT INFRONT OF HIM NOW OR THEN. TOO MUCH SPEED TOO MANY RING SKILLS AND A GREAT CHIN.
DEFINATELY IN THE TOP 5 OF BRITIANS ALL TIME GREATEST AND CURRENTLY THE BEST P4P IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!!
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Boxing is a sport that requires an astonishing amount of dedication, sacrifice and pain to make it as a decent prospect, many fighters and champions have fallen at seemingly small hurdles because they have neglected their training. Many may think that Calzaghes record has many inconsequential names, but this disrespectful to Joe and his opponets. Joe didnt make a mistake in 46 fights! This should be recognised. As for this prattle about Hopkins, sorry but he got beat fair and square (though Hopkins doesnt know the meaning of the word "fair"), and his beating of Pavlik was inconsequential. Pavlik gave up once he realised he was going to lose but not relinquish the titles you even heard his corner say as much! Is Calzaghe great?, course he is for crying out loud!
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Erm, surely Manny P is currently the #1 P4P fighter...?
All in one year he beat Juan Manual Marquez at super-feather, beat David Diaz at lightweight and then beat De la Hoya at welterweight...
He isn't just #1, he's #1 by an absolute mile...
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lets argue pacman aint #1 p4p. i believe he didnt deserve the decision against marquez and he shud given him the rematch. diaz was a great win but de la hoya? he'd be more threatened by a one legged arthritic pensioner. i for one believe hattons got his number. his bullish style and stature will be to mch 4 pacman. de la hoya may b past it bt hatton aint and his size will tell in the ring over a natural featherweight
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pundit, for once i'm actually going to agree with you!
My statement was only a factual one (didn't deem it necessary to divulge), i too believe MP was lucky (in both fights) to get a decision over JMM. But unfortunately split decisions always will be open to debate, many people thought Bhop beat JC (myself included) and so the debates will always rumble on. Diaz was a game but lethargic guy for a lightweight and DLH, well, an average domestic fighter would have probably taken him that night. The fact that DLH wasn't TKOd earlier says alot about the power that MP doesn't carry at that weight.
My view is as soon as Ricky gets him on the inside it's game over. Probably the best thing that could happen for MP, because if he gets in the ring with a big welter like Cotto he could get hurt.
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