Keeping it real at the Lakeside
According to some scientist or other somewhere, Monday was the most stressful day of the year. Instead of moping about in his bedroom conjuring up equations of doom, he should have got himself down to the BDO World Darts Championship at the Lakeside in Frimley Green.
Like Scott, James, Andy and Nick, four 21-year-olds from Shrewsbury. They've each shelled out 850 quid for tickets and hotel rooms for the week and plan to spend another £400 each on beer. "It's worth every penny," said Scott, "although one mate pointed out that we could have had a fortnight in Benidorm." For that money, Scotty, you could have had a fortnight in Saint-Tropez.
Up on stage, Martin Adams, the 2007 world champion, is struggling with his doubles. Dave Chisnall, a debutant from St Helens, has taken him to a fifth and deciding set. Scott from Shrewsbury clambers to his feet and starts howling. Adams, nicknamed 'Wolfie', duly takes the next leg.
It was in 2007 that many first woke up to how great darts could be. Over at the rival PDC World Championship in Purfleet on New Year's Day, Dutchman Raymond van Barneveld came back from three sets down to beat Phil Taylor 7-6 in a sudden death leg. On a day brimming with sporting action, it trumped the lot.
A few days later, Adams gave up a 6-0 lead against fellow Englishman Phill Nixon before also triumphing 7-6. To paraphrase Sid Waddell, perhaps the greatest sports commentator who ever drew breath, there hadn't been that much excitement since the Romans fed the Christians to the Lions.
Sid, who was instrumental in making darts a fixture on our screens, doesn't do the Lakeside any more. He spent the festive period busting blood vessels and mixing metaphors at Alexandra Palace, the PDC World Championship's cavernous new home.
"The PDC crowd are awful and Alexandra Palace is a terrible venue," Wolfie tells me after finally defeating Chisnall 3-2 in a nervy old encounter. John Boy Walton, the 2001 world champion, is getting stuck into a full roast dinner on the adjacent table.
"The PDC is 'sports entertainment', while the BDO has a more educated crowd who love good darts. They have their favourites who they'll shout for and get behind, but it's respectful.
"They had blokes throwing beer around last week at Alexandra Palace, that's not a darts crowd. Some of the antics they get up to, they'd be shown the door at the Lakeside."
The vibe certainly feels slightly different at the BDO. In my previous visits to the PDC, there has been an air of 'ironic entertainment', that cynical and rather patronising modern British curse: "I'm not really a darts fan, but it's highly amusing pretending that I am for an evening."
"At the PDC, everyone's waving those boards about and just trying to get on TV," adds BDO spokesman Robert Holmes. "It's just one big booze-up and the darts is secondary."
The BDO (British Darts Organisation) and the PDC (Professional Darts Corporation) don't get on. Not since 16 high-profile players, including every previous BDO world champion still chucking, decided to set up their own world championship - which would become the PDC version - which was first aired on Sky in 1994.
The stream of defections from the BDO continues apace, and the PDC is the home of the greatest thrower of all time, Phil 'The Power' Taylor, who stormed to his 14th world title with a 7-1 beasting of Van Barneveld on Sunday.
But to at least some fans at the Lakeside, the BDO will always be the spiritual home of darts.
"The BDO has all the history, going back to the first one in 1978," says George Ivory from Bordon, Hampshire. "It's the one every player wants to win, like Wimbledon is to tennis players or Wembley to footballers."
"Even Phil Taylor, who won the BDO twice, will say winning here was a highlight," adds Holmes.
"The players that made the sport great - Eric Bristow, Bobby George, Jocky Wilson and John Lowe - all made their names here.
"For all Taylor has done, if you ask a man on the street to name a darts player, they'll probably still say Eric Bristow or Bobby George.
"There are 66 members of the World Darts Federation, of which the BDO is a member, and as many as 100m people will watch this year's event.
"We had the first player from Poland this week, and on Thursday we had Persian TV visiting, because Iran is a real growth area, with 500,000 members in the Iranian darts federation.
"They've latched onto the fact that darts can bring different groups together in peace. Instead of sitting down and debating things, they should have a game of darts."
Back out front, Northern Ireland's Daryl Gurney is doing battle with England's Garry Thompson. I ask Charona from Amsterdam why she thinks the UK and Holland are at the vanguard of darts. "Beer," she fires back, before jumping to her feet and waving a '180' board above her head. Thousands follow suit. It looks like a rubbish version of a North Korean mass games.
Beer is both the heartbeat of darts and a stick to beat it with. How, say darts' detractors, can it be a sport if most of its participants drink lager before a match and have the consistency of Spam?
So synonymous are beer and darts that when 2000 world champion Ted 'The Count' Hankey revealed live on the BBC on Sunday that he'd knocked beer on the head, it was like hearing Lance Armstrong announce that he trained entirely on battered Mars Bars.
"You can take darts out of the pub, but you can't take the pub out of darts," says Adams, before shouting over to seven-time women's world champion Trina Gulliver to bring him a pint.
"You don't have to drink. The generation coming up are slim, trim and exercise. Joey ten Berge (who lost to Martin Atkins on Monday) was drinking Diet Coke the whole time he was practising.
"But the image isn't unfair, we've obviously had a few beers and pies in our time. But so do golfers on the 19th hole and footballers in nightclubs, so we're not the only drinkers in sport.
"And we don't need performance-enhancing stuff to do well. We rely on talent and our mental state. And look at the mess cycling's in, there's always people getting caught out."
Aah, but Wolfie, how can you be so naive? Everyone knows that you can cheat to your heart's content in cycling and athletics, serve a two-year ban and all will be forgiven. Have a few lagers before you climb on the oche and you're nothing but a fat oik.
In the players' bar, I ask Bobby George, who sounds like fifty pence pieces being fed into a paper shredder, whether he cares if people consider darts to be a sport or not (it was recognised officially in 2005).
"I think it's a sport, but I don't care if anyone else thinks it is or not," says Bobby, whose right arm is cradled in a jewel-encrusted sling (ironic really, considering his left arm is weighed down with so much tomfoolery, a lesser man would require a winch to lift it off the dinner table).
"If people play tiddlywinks and they're world-class, they'll think that's a sport, so it's up to the individual."
It is difficult not to come to the conclusion that class has a part to play in much of the sneering. While snooker insists on its players wearing evening dress in an attempt to add a veneer of respectability (even though most of its participants would never wear evening dress in any other situation, apart from maybe at their own weddings) darts doesn't pretend to be anything other than what it is.
But while, for example, archery has been an Olympic sport since 1900, despite the fact that in terms of participation and audience its offspring dwarfs it, darts is still looked down on by many. Not that the Lakeside faithful mind much.
"You can relate to darts players, they're more normal than footballers or other sportsmen," says Neil Woodhatch from Bordon.
"I'll give you a prime example. I used to take my kids to watch Chelsea's reserves play in Aldershot, but they wouldn't sign any autographs. They haven't got time for you, they've lost touch with the public. Darts players aren't so distant, and that's what a lot of people like about them."
After Gurney has defeated Thompson 3-1 in the final match of the night, Holmes proudly tells me that the International Olympic Committee recently paid a visit to assess darts' Olympic credentials.
Sid Waddell only knows what the IOC members would have made of the sign on the backstage toilet mirror that reads 'DO NOT SPRAY FAKE TAN WITHIN THE LAKESIDE'. Something tells me darts' bigwigs have a lot more persuading to do.
Hello. I have been working for the BBC for almost a decade now and cover almost all sports, but particularly cricket and boxing. It would be good to hear from you - just don't be nasty or my mum might get upset.
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I agree, some of the PDC antics are "entertainment" but to say the darts is secondary when Tayor threw an average of nearly 110 in the final has to be a cynical, jealous comment from the BDO. I've watched some of the BDO this week and to be honest it is dull. Darts players as any other sportsmen this day and age deserve recognition for their efforts and money talks. It was mentioned over the PDC week that Co Stompe ahd earned more in his first year on the PDC circuit than in 10 years on the BDO. When you have a family to feed I think playing the game you love and getting paid more for it has to be a draw.
One final thing, BDO is still covered on the BBC and for those poor souls who do not have a red button on their TV, cutting off Martin Adams the other night at 8pm sharp must have been a real turn off. That would never happen on Sky TV. And we still pay a licence fee??
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Although I agree about the sports entertainment of the PDC in relation to the crowds, I also think that the PDC remains more popular because they just have BETTER players.. Look at the Grand Slam of Darts.. 2 finals, 2 PDC v PDC
Thats why the BDO champions move over, to play against the best and earn themselves some serious money.
Could Ted Hankey and Simon Whitlock really fill arenas week in week out like the Premier League does? I think not..
I'll look forward to Anderson and Webster following Thornton and King's example and moving to play with the big boys soon.
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The BDO may be the spiritual home, but the PDC has the better players and consistantly better matches.
And also, please can we get away from Sid Waddell being the best commentator in the world! His awful, constant rabbiting non-sequiturs he thinks are clever drives me to turn the volume down on Sky's coverage. The BBC's best strength of it's coverage of the BDO tournament is that Waddell isn't on it!
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The BDO do make me laugh.
OK, the history of the game is at Lakeside, but the BDO championships is nothing but second division darts let's be fair.
Averages of 80-odd winning games, 90-odd winning them comfortably.
There are possibly half a dozen to 10 max players that could make a living in the PDC arena.
Wolfie Adams makes me laugh. Yes the new venue isn't the best, yes the crowd is more boisterous, yes there is a certain amount of ironic snobbery that goes on, with people going so that they can say at their Chelsea dinner parties what they did and have a laugh, but it's the same at the Lakeside. Does the bloke wearing a horse's head all week do that all week, or is it to get on the tele?
Let's be fair. Fair play to the BBC for showing this tournament and for trying to big it up as the World Championships, but it's nothing more than a sideshow compared to the true Championships.
The PDC championships is comfortably ahead in terms of standard of play, standard of coverage and standard of commentary.
As for Bobby George, do we pay our licence fee for that? He gets my vote for worst tv pundit by a mile.
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I think 'Wolfie' is slightly biased in his comments attacking the PDC. I agree with him that the PDC is more 'entertaining', both the darts and the atmosphere. Truth is, 'Wolfie' would struggle to make it to the quarters at the Ally Pally so it's probably for the best that he remains a big dog at the BDO and captain of the England side whilst plugging some purist line and sticking close to the 'spiritual home of darts'.
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The article annoys me all you have is a one sided view from people within the BDO organisation. It no good only speakin to them because they are goin to bad mouth the PDC.
And for that clown Holmes to claim that most people on the street would still name Eric Bristow if asked to name a darts player, is he for real or is he only asking people old enuff to have watched darts in the 70's and 80's.
Also the comment about the Lakeside being the one every body wants to win is just plain stupid. If this is the case why do so many players move to the PDC before winning it??
I am not tryin to totally bad mouth the BDO because i think it does a lot for the grass roots of darts and developing some younger talent, but lets face it any one that has any ambition in darts has to play against the best in the world and thats in the PDC.
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very bitter article.
the BDO is so dull its untrue its like being at a morgue, and their is a reason why they hardly ever show the players averages on the BBC, its like comparing the premiere league to the conference the standards are so far apart.
The PDC is way better in all compartments.
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Really good article.
Agree with the comments so far - over the past 5 years or so the PDC has massively overtaken the BDO (as confirmed when Barneveld moved across). Indeed, when Jelle Klaasen won the 2006 BDO title he didn't even bother to defend it, he just jumped ship to the PDC.
The article relates to the sport entertainment factor v the tradition of darts in the PDC v BDO rivalry. Although this is true I just think this has much more to do with the way the two broadcasters treat sport / broadcasting in general: Sky hype everything, so they hype the PDC into something that whips the crowd into a frenzy. The BBC is obviously less garish and more subtle in its approach, so I think this explains why the atmospheres are different (not to mention the venues: country club v glorified pub - certainly in the case of the Circus Tavern when the PDC was played there).
But to say the darts at the PDC is secondary is incorrect. Having been to the world champs at both the Ally Pally and the Circus Tavern I can tell you that people genuinely go to enjoy the sport. And let's face it, darts is more enjoyable when players are averaging 100+, hitting big check outs and scoring lots of 180s. Unfortunately for the BDO this happens an awful lot more in the PDC these days.
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Just a couple of comments.
The spiritual home of world darts is and always will be Jollees in Stoke On Trent where it started in the 70's not the Lakeside.
Why do BDO players feel the need to make snidey little comments about the PDC when it's obvious that the PDC have the better tournaments, prize money , coverage etc it just proves that the original "rebels" were right all along and that darts was stagnant under the BDO.
Who would you rather see as a world champion 14 times winner Phil Taylor or someone who things he's a vampire !!!!! 'nuff said
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Let's face it, any shred of hope for darts to be taken even half seriously ended when it split into two different leagues. If the people who play and run the game can't see that, they are sadly mistaken. They should look at what happened to the Indy 500 when all the good drivers went off and formed a rival competition, leaving the big race but with no name competitors - very quickly people stopped caring about both.
And remember the rule for determining whether an activity is a sport or not. If you can smoke while you're doing it, it's not a sport.
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Very good blog, it's nice to see some realisation in the modern press that despite perhaps having some better players, the PDC is a bit of a charade. BDO is the main organisation breeding new talent and without the BDO the PDC would be nothing more than a pipe dream. T
he history of darts will always eminate from the Lakeside, no matter what outlandish stunts with it's slightly better players the PDC bring to us.
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Point 8
If it's merely entertainment you want, watch me and my mates play. We have a laugh, tell jokes, and the standard is awful, but close. And the interminable time spent trying to hit a double would make tension-filled tv.
Point 10
You can neither drink nor smoke playing darts any more.
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Point 11
Your Kidding your self if you think that the only way the PDC get new talent is from the BDO. Yes some start there and it is benificial to them but please dont tell me you think its the only place they get players from.
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The BDO offers more personalities and a far nicer atmosphere, both in terms of attending and watching on television. I concede that the standard is generally better in the PDC, but the better TV is with the BBC.
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#12 - I'm not talking about what's permitted during televised professioanl competitions, I'm talking about whether phsycially you, me or anyone can play a game of darts while smoking a cigarette. From personal experience, the answer is absolutely.
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I've only watched half an hour of the BDO this year and that was plenty enough. The commentator was getting over excited about a match where both players were averaging under 85 and one of them missed the board going for a double... I may try and qualify next year!
I'm not sure why Adams reckons the Ally Pally is a poor venue..? 2,500 people all having a laugh whilst watching some proper darts making a bit of a din (apart from a small minority who do heckle) is fun and some more. Was there on the 30th for the Baxter v Barney game and the atmosphere was absolutely electric, then you look at the Lakeside and it's almost graveyard-esque in comparison.
On with the BDO bashing!
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the better TV is with the BBC
don't make me laugh
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#15
I've played five a side with a guy who had a fag on. I know cricketers who smoke in the field....
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#15 - I've quite often played a game of football with a fag hanging out of my mouth and half my sunday side have a couple of pints before a game. OK, it's not big or clever but it totally negates your point.
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Hi All,
I cant disagree more. The PDC is where it is at. The great players, entertaining action, fantastic atmosphere, brill entrances and amazing commentary all make for a cracking competiton.
The BDO is boring, dull and the standard of dart players is shocking. Forget doubles, they cant hit treble 20's!
And when a good player comes along on the BDO, he goes where the real players are an switches to the PDC, as we all know from the many many that have switched.
When I watch taylor v barney, or even in the 1st round, jenkins and part get knocked out, barney v baxter, or taylor getting a 110 avg, barney's 9 darter. Thats darts for me. When ITV did the grand slam of darts, you once again see the difference in darting quality, against each brand.
I dont think the BDO comes close to the PDC in anyway.
And the players obviously don't either, or they wouldnt swtich. The BDO is the platform for players to make the PDC. FACT
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And someone meantioned bristow! he is now a sky PDC pundit! He knows where the game is at too.
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The BDO has been and always will be the heart and soul of darts; as another poster wisely said average joe public can only mane abut 3 players, i.e. the ones who lit up the Embassy stage...Jocky Wilson (come back Jocky son you are much missed) John Lowe Eric Bristow the holy trinity of darts in its BDO guise.
Sorry PDC you are simply the dart's version of football's Premier League: all money, no history and no class.
Long Live the BDO.
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The BDO has been and always will be the heart and soul of darts; as another poster wisely said average joe public can only name abut 3 players, i.e. the ones who lit up the Embassy stage...Jocky Wilson (come back Jocky son you are much missed) John Lowe Eric Bristow the holy trinity of darts in its BDO guise.
Sorry PDC you are simply the dart's version of football's Premier League: all money, no history and no class.
Long Live the BDO.
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Lots of people watching darts nowadays probably don't even know why we have the BDO and PDC. Bristow, Taylor, Lowe and the rest were right to start their own organisation after darts started to decline in the early 90's.
It's quite funny when Adams said after his first round match that he expected a tough game from an opponent who had had a good season at county level!!
Adams may well be scared of big time darts. He doesn't even attempt playing in the Grand Slam of Darts, an event which a couple of BDO players such as Anderson and Fitton have had reasonable success. Surely it won't be long before thay make the move over to where the money and quality players are.
A very one sided article which i'm sure the PDC won't even take notice of. And yes, you probably do get a few more excited people in the PDC crowds... considering Taylor and the like play in front of 2000 to 3000+ people instead of 500 to a 1000.
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Post 14, spot on mate.
I have always been a BDO fan despite conceding the talent in the PDC is far superior now. I was bitterly dissappointed when King switched back in early 2007 and when Barney eventually did that was really the beginning of the end.
Adams is and will always be my favourite player and last year's final was an epic, with my nose growing I never doubted him for a minute. It is just a shame these two sporting bodies cannot make amends because the sport in it's entirety will be so much stronger for a unification.
You cannot blame players for switching to the PDC, after all that's where the money is and the oppurtunity to pit your wits against the very best bar Wolfie of course.
Nice to see dart's getting a bit more recognition so well done Dirsy, the snooker comment was spot on aswell.
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I think something we are overlooking here is that if I want to watch the PDC I have to pay £40 to Sky.
The PDC also shows about 10 tournaments a year, which is fair enough but they are rarely evening matches that most people can watch, we only get the highlights after their football coverage.
The BBC offers the darts at no cost without a collosal dish being glued to my chimney, with the same 'New Year' excitment of when I watched the darts as a boy.
When Sky make it cheaper to watch, perhaps they will start to change my mind.
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Many of the players at the top of the PDC circuit have come from BDO simultaniously yet the BDO always replaces these players. Move players like Barney, Klassens, King, Van der Voort, Van Gerwen, Thornten, Stompe (all recently crossed over) back to the BDO & just think how much of a better BDO competition we would have had. Only Barney was a multiple major winnr on the BDO circuit but having to attempt to compete with Taylor has improved the standards of all the PDC players i believe. Once Taylor finishes im not sure the gap in class will be so obvious. The only difference between the two really is the money on offer, meaning any half decent player would be silly not to switch to the PDC.
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A lot of people are talking about the standards of play and it is obvious to everyone with a brain that Taylor is far and away the greatest player and that 110.9 average is untouchable.
What is not being discussed though is the actual difference in overall standard. A friend of mine calculated the average of the 3-dart averages in the last 32 of the PDC tournament just finished and the 1st round (last 32) of the BDO tournament and the difference is quite astounding:
PDC = 92.77
BDO = 84.30
It muct be said that the round of 32 in the PDC is over 7 sets to the 5sets of the BDO first round. However, I think this goes to show that the better standard of darts is in the PDC albeit that the BDO does have a few very good players.
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This is a very interesting article and is probably one of the major topic of debate amongst darts fans - which is the better organisation.
Without wishing to completely dismiss the BDO, I think it is quite obvious that the PDC is by far and away the best organisation. I am 22 years old and I have never in my lifetime known darts be so popular - and what is the reason for this? An annual tournament with a subdued crowd at a country club or 8 - 10 major tournaments a year (including a fantastic Premier League concept) in huge venues, with big crowds all enjoying themselves watching some of the greatest darts players on the planet?Sky have made darts popular - the way they portray it on TV makes it look appealing to people watching and makes them want to go or even take up the sport. I think also the influence of Phil Taylor cannot be underestimated. The man has made the sport his own and is a reason why it is so popular.
I admit that perhaps the PDC is more of an entertainment factor than the BDO but Sky have made the best out of what is basically a pub sport.
The standard of play is clearly higher in the PDC and I can think of only 3 or 4 players in the BDO who would make it in the PDC where surely the attractions are bigger.
The BDO is nothing more than a starting point for these players, and people like Martin Adams who it would appear is to remain in the BDO for the rest of his career, whilst being admired for their loyalty, surely must feel a sense of a waste of talent - that he hasn't pitted his wits against the greatest players on the planet and will always be a big fish in a small pond.
I think though the crux of the matter is that its ridiculous that a sport like darts should have 2 governing bodies anyway, but that's a totally new debate all together...
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martin adams says the PDC crowd is terrible!
look at the bdo crowd dull holiday makers that quite frankly would prefair a cabaret or something like that than watch some borting darts match averiging 80 thinking their great look at the pdc brilliant atmosephere at the events they care about the fans and love thier darts they look for sponsorship and get darts on the telly a lot more so to be quite fair the bdo worlds isnt the one to win the pdc is the one with the most money the better players so if you want to win a world championship who would you prefair to beat in a final martin adams or phil taylor
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Personally I prefer the BDO and the BBC darts coverage of their championship. I know the PDC is a higher standard and that's the place to be to earn serious money but i think the BDO and the Lakeside feel more cosy. Its not so boisterous, it seems people really are there to enjoy the darts. Also the commentator's on Sky are absolutely abysmal, all you get is inane chatter from them its awful! The BBC provide better statistical coverage during the match as well, giving you the 3 dart averages, averages for the first 9 darts and they tell you what score each dart's landed in as soon as its landed. Its sometimes difficult to know if a dart's hit the 20 or the treble but the BBC tells you straight away.
As i've said I can see why people would prefer the PDC as you can see from the averages that the best players are there but at the end of the day i'm not a die-hard fan. I watch it for a bit of enjoyable entertainment and for me the organisation and coverage that gives me that is the BDO Championships on the Beeb.
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Re: Post 6.
Actually Holmes is probably right about the average person on the street as my mate has no interest in darts and he can only name 2 players who are Taylor and Bristow
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I've regularly been to both the PDC and BDO events down the years and both tournaments have strengths.
I prefer the Lakeside venue and the fact it is accessible on the BBC. Like peoples' comment the PDC don't seem to have found the right venue and also the Sky factor just makes it cheesey and overblown.
Yes the PDC do have the better players and in depth. But the BDO do have about 6 players who could (and may still) go to the PDC and win plenty of matches.
People talk about the averages and if you want to be a slave to them you can be. But when you watch a game in PDC and BDO you will see 180s 140s and tons being scored in both - and it isn't that noticeable if you get a few extra in the PDC. I don't sit there saying "oh dear that was a 88 ave set whilst in the PDC that would have been 95 , so I am turning this off now".
No I look for good matches as well as the average. For example the Fitton v Whitlock game last night. There are of course good games in the PDC too. I am just saying the average isn't that vital as long there is some decent scoring the the legs are progressing.
Ok so Taylor hits a 100+ average , great, but watching him stroll to 13 world titles (and even when he doesn't win he looks most of the time as if he will) isn't the most interesting. I don't sit there at the end saying "never mind the fact it was a boring one sided match / tournament at least he got a really good average".
By the way it is Bordon not Borden.
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The boozy fagged up days of the old BDO tournies the best and grandest of 'em all. Bullseye was good toobck then; they all lined up to get on it like guests on Morecambe and Wise.
PDC not better just different, you pays your money you takes your choice.
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so fans at Lakeside don't get boozed up and wave boards around trying to be seen on tv?
oh right.. i must've been hallucinating when I saw exactly this happening.
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The BDO slags of the 'entertainment' aspect of the PDC, yet on a BBC Five Live interview with corrent BDO world champion Mark Webster - he confirmed that they are in discussion with Setanta Sports to take the game forward. Setanta copy everything that Sky does anyway. What will be their excuse for the inferior dart average when that happens??
Wolfie isn't good enough to live in One-dart Manleys shadow - and thats one hell of a shadow!!
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you leave Wolfie alone, he' s grrrrrrrreeeeaaaatt!
post 35. i'm talking about the players not the fans!
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TO say that standard is irrelevant is a very strange point.
I don't deny that you can watch good matches on the BDO because there are many I have enjoyed but it is the same with the championship in football many good matches and some good players.
Ultimately though if you want to watch the world's best challenge each other at the top of their sport you have to watch the PDC.
I agree watching somebody win a world title easily 7-1 in the final is not ideal but it is the same as in golf. Watching woods win majors by 5 or 6 shots isn't that exciting but it is enthralling because the sheer standard is mind-boggling. The same is true with Taylor. It wasn't exciting in the final vs. Barney, but to see undoubtedly the world's second best player taken apart by one of the greatest all-time performances was truly remarkable.
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BDO slags off the boards and walk-on etc. and then goes and copies it without remorse. Robert Holmes really is one unintelligent fellow.
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perhaps it's a generational thing, some of us who went to the famous embassy darts matches in the late 70s and early 80s are no different than football fans who long for the return of standing terraces; maybe the present BDO isn't so wonderful but it's a link with a glorious past, and it is one worth preserving.
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The only thing i'd agree with in the whole article is that sometimes the hecklers at Ally Pally and other PDC events lack respect. Booing in the Mardle V's Thornton was shocking to say the least. The real dart fans have respect for both players,whoever there supporting.
As for the rest of the article, you do have to laugh..........The PDC and Sky are lightyears ahead in both the organization and coverage. During commentary 2 days ago i heard dreary old Tony Green (while i was slipping in/out of consciousness) asking Ted Hankey which way will the player left on 3 would go to checkout.................Bobby George and his yellow teeth and his tacky bling are cringeworthy to say the least. His seventies/eighties bling is a sign of the past as is Olly Croft and his Maroon Blazer.
The whole Lakeside event is stuck in the Dark ages. Darts has moved on ten fold, yet the BDO stick to the same old floored system.
I do agree it has it's place at bringing youth players through. But once there good enough they will inevitabily move over to the PDC so they can use there talent to make a good living.
Martin Adams is a medium size fish in a tiny pond. Would he even make it through the first round at Ally Pally?
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"TO say that standard is irrelevant is a very strange point"
I think you are responding to me?
Nope I didn't say it was irrelevant, I just said it is not the ONLY thing and I am not a slave to it like some people are . "No I look for good matches AS WELL as the average."
I admire Taylor. He is amazing. Sure. I am just saying a great average does not always mean exciting darts like some people state here. Taylor scores a great average and whilst of course we all know how good he is, but sometimes the average doesn't make close and exciting matches, which for me is as important as average.
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SirPhillipTaylor, completely agree with what you have written. Yes there's booing and nobody suffered more than one-dart. He has managed to turn that around to his advantage and the crowds love him. Mardle and typically James Wade struggle to block the background noise out.
The PDC is exciting and for once I don't mind the staoppages for adverts so I can get up and dance and swing my pint around!! LOL.
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Point 26. 'The PDC also shows about 10 tournaments a year, which is fair enough but they are rarely evening matches that most people can watch, we only get the highlights after their football coverage.'
Are you kidding? We've just had 13 evening sessions shown live from 7pm and lasting until 10pm or 11pm. In a few weeks, we will start 14 successive Thursday night broadcasts in the Premier League. Later in the year, there will be live tournaments featuring evening broadcasts from Bolton, Blackpool and Dublin.
The PDC has revived my interest in darts which had disappeared when my only viewing option was the BDO. The quality is vastly superior and a 5 figure crowd will attend the Liverpool Echo Arena next month. You couldn't get 10,000 people who aren't ardent BDO fans to tell you who Martin Adams or 'Wolfie' are.
Barney has improved massively since switching to the PDC. He had to if he wanted to compete. I sugest that Adams and Wolfie know they'd be out of their depth.
The only thing I will say against the Sky coverage is Waddell. The man used to be a likeable idiot, but seeems to have become a parody of himself now.
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Point 26: BDO is moving over to Setanta. Subscription for PDC or BDO. Your choice!
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Martin Adams is simply running scared as he knows he can't compete with the talent of even "average" PDC players. When averages in the mid 80s consistently win games and tournaments in the BDO it shows the gulf between the two.
I wouldn't surprise me if not one player averages over 100 in a game in the BDO "World Championship" whilst Barney was annihilated with a 102 average in the PDC final and Taylor averaged over 100 for the whole tournament.
The most telling comment over the past few weeks is from Kirk Shepherd, "I?m going back to the BDO and back to work. I?m just not good enough for the PDC."
Talent and money talk, the PDC has both. The BDO is sadly second rate.
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Yeah it would have been good to have the alternate view of the PDC. To say the darts is secondary is completely wrong, everyone gets very involved in the games as the standard is so high. The atmosphere created at Alexandra Palace is absolutely electric, you can tell the players enjoy the event, right from the walk ons.
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Here we go more average talk. Yawn. In cricket I don't watch it because someone might get 35 average over a season or whatever. You go to watch a game of cricket, the contest, not the average. Runs can be scored at the most important time to win matches, it's not just about averages. People go to see a game, a contest, enjoy the occasion etc.
Yes the PDC has better averages and the standard is better. Great. BDO has better venue and better non cheesey Sky atmosphere. We don't know who will win every year like the PDC Worlds. Both tournaments are good IMO both have strengths.
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What happens to the BDO this year if Webster,Waites,Whitlock and Anderson move over to the PDC?
You will spend the next 10 years watching 'The Count' v'S 'Wolfie' in the final with Dreary old Tony Green snooring at the mic!
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I'd agree that the 'real' element of darts is one of the best things about it. I went to the Lakeside in 2004 and was sitting right next to a table on which a couple stopped Barney as he walked past to ask him for an autograph.
Barney stopped to say something to the couple and walked off. I assumed he'd given them the brush-off, but somebody next to me said 'he's just said he's a bit tired now (having just finished a match) but will come back in a bit and sign their programme'.
And twenty minutes later, Barney did.
In what other sport would you get that level of consideration from one of its biggest superstars?
Having been to a Premier League date this past year, I would say that the atmosphere's nothing compared to Lakeside, but that's to do with the size of the venues and their lack of character, not the darts being played.
I'd also say that it's unfair to brand people 'not real fans' just because they're throwing beer about. I saw plenty of drunken loudness at Lakeside and only the fact you wouldn't get away with throwing beer there has probably stopped some people. Lads spending £400 in a week on beer aren't going to be *just* there for the sport are they?
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"You will spend the next 10 years watching 'The Count' v'S 'Wolfie' in the final with Dreary old Tony Green snooring at the mic!"
And you will spend the next 10 years watching 'The Power' easily beating 'Barney' in the final with useless Waddell pumping up the Sky hype.
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Point 26. What are you on about being able to watch darts for free on the BBC, but you have to pay £40 to Sky to watch the PDC.
Let's be clear.
It costs £139.50 a year for a BBC license, that's nearly £12 a month and you don't have a choice.
But really, this is a tiresome argument. Sky dominate the sports agenda because they put their money where their mouth is and they back the sports appropriately.
I am not a subscriber, I might add. But I do have freeview and I grow tired of the times that the BBC brag about their sports coverage, but then show nothing but contempt for the viewer by leaving a programme in the middle of a darts/snooker match etc.
Under the BBC I remember the days watching late night highlights of an away cricket test match. With Sky - you see every ball live.
Whenever the BBC have a sports package, they just shove it anywhere in the schedules, with non consistent timings.
And as for Bobby George - he was never a great player (yet he is listed above as a player who made the game great). His legend has been made in the last few years as a dozy pundit.
If I could remove my £12 a month from BBC's pockets and add another £28 to get Sky, I would...
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#51
Any darts fan who does not appreciate 'The Power' and his achievements in Darts for me is not a real darts fan.
He is undoubtabley one of the greatest sportsmen ever. Darts fans should be made up in the fact that they are witness to the greatest dart player there will ever be!
Phil Taylor is up there with Ali, Phelps, Schumacher, Woods, Rod lehman and so on.
You can only beat whats in front of you. Whoever has moved across and gone toe to toe with 'The Power' has only made Phil Taylor play better. Living Legend!
The 'unification' of Darts has already happened within the PDC. All the best best and top players play there!
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Bobby George is an absolute joke. You only have to read his site to realise how deluded this man is - and that the BBC have created a monster. Here are a few snippets:
"BOBBY GEORGE is widely recognised as the best known and most colourful and charismatic darts player of all time."
Er best known - Phil Taylor, Eric Bristow???!!!!
"He's been featured in 'Gillette World Of Sport' (seen by an audience of 100 million worldwide) and it is hardly surprising that he is universally acknowledged as 'The King Of Darts'. "
Who by?
"He has more trophies, awards, honours and accolades than practically any player in the sport. "
Er - are you kidding? Any player in the sport? The lad won nothing - not even one world championship. Please. Somebody put this caveman out to seed...
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Point 51. Taylor has won only half the major events since Barney switched to the PDC. James Wade has won 3! Hardly evidence that Taylor will win the next 10 World titles!
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Am I missing the point here...but isn't the main reason people watch sport is to be entertained?
In my opinion the BDO, and World Championships in particular has been poor ever since Barneveld left. The loss of all the best players has only highlighted further how poor the coverage and setup is. How long before the BBC lose coverage to yet another sporting event because of this?
Adams has been in denial regarding the quality of the PDC for years. And the main reason for the atmosphere within PDC tournaments is that the quality of darts and setup attracts a younger audience who want to be entertained. Is that not a good thing for the future of darts?
Only Webster and Anderson have the potential to be successful in the PDC - Adams wouldn't handle the pressure.
I also think in 5-10 years time everyone will be talking about the history of the PDC and Phil Taylor.
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The PDC is better than the BDO.......period!
I was at the Ally Pally on the 29th of December and saw the Adrian Lewis v Paul Nicholson match, and it was a fantastic game which Nicholson, an unknown, won! The BDO only has 3-4 good players and they would struggle to make the top 20 in the PDC.
When i turned on to the BDO and saw someone throw a 43 followed by a 41 that straight away made me not want to watch, if you have a choice of watching somoeone throw a 1099 average or an 80 average which one are you going to choose?
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#53
anyone that tells me I am 'not a real darts fan' is not a real darts fan lol
I mean your name SirPhillipTaylor immediately shows where you stand on this.
If you read my comments above I said Taylor is amazing. I agree.
My point was I don't share the view with these people that say great average automatically equals great darts viewing and therefore that makes the better tournament. Average counds for something but I don't think it is ALL important. Personally I sometimes look at the PDC and seeing Taylor's procession whilst yes he is amazing and will have a great average it is not that exciting for some of us.
The PDC has the better players and the better average and Taylor is easliy the best player agreed. The greatest.
It doesn't mean we all look as individuals for those criteria too for enjoyable darts - and will dismiss the BDO because of it.
Some people will go to a game of cricket the highest quality as proven by averages and league table. Others will go to a specifc venue, or ambiance, for the contest and occasion.
Great golf tournaments can still happen when Tiger Woods is injured.
Personally I think the BDO has enough good quality players for it to be watchable and enjoyable, good matches , open tournament in that we don't know who is going to win, lower averages sure but I am not a slave to that and I still see 180s etc, it has the better venue and non Sky cheesyness and I get to see it because it is not on exclusive Sky.
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Bdo is seconda rate from the players to the officials and in particular that buffoon Tony Green, one player was left with 3 the other night and Tony says and I quote " let's see which way she goes" 1 double 1 by any chance - if you want darts fans to watch the bdo stop talking to them like childrfen and making stupid comments during the action. If you don't respect your audience you will end up having none.
Nevertheless I am happy that bbc shows this tournament annually even though it is a shadow of the PDC, it has now become like the boat race and the grand national - you watch it for the occasion rather than the quality
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#55
Taylor had a bad year in 2007, but he has won pretty much everything this year AGAIN. He has won 13 out of 16 world titles, so it is possible he will keep winning winning which for some of us isn;t the most exciting and enjoyable thing.
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Martin Adams has never said one good thing about the PDC.
He would never have a won a world championship if Barney, King, Klassen, Van erwen etc had not left the BDO. SUrley as a top sportsman you should want to test your skills against the best in the world, and adams has always declined the opportunity.
The BDO does not have the same atmosphere as the PDC and needs beeter cooentators who actually express some exitement about the game. The BBC coverage was a lot better when John Part was on the commantary team. There are some great players in the BDO Anderson especially, with Fitton, Webster, Waites and Whitlock more than capable of holding there own in the PDC and i wonder wow long they can ignore the challenges and rewards that go with the PDC!
Martin Adams show show some guts and and compete with the best proffesional dart players in the worls and show what he i smade of, instead of taking on pub players in a second rate championship!
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cs15hammer ;
You seem to be missing the point that in darts, averages ARE everything. Darts is not an athletic sport, there are so few variables in the sport that it doesnt have that much going for it to make it an interesting sport.
The ONLY thing that makes darts fun to watch, is high scoring and big checkouts.
No one wants to waste their evening watching largely overweight englishmen throwing "60....41....85....100...23....95....140....83...." there just isnt enough variables etc to make that worthwhile. The averages clearly show, this is what you get year in year out in the BDO. I really like watching the PDC darts, because I know im going to see guys at the top of their game throwing big numbers and big checkouts. There is absolutely no attraction in watching men in a quiet hall throwing average darts.... I dont watch the BDO but the thought of watching a tourney where mid 80s average can win the whole thing.....*shudder*
Averages DO matter in darts, because darts can only be a good spectacle if great darts are being thrown. PDC all the way
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Point 53...
Please don't call Phil Taylor a 'sportsman'
He is undoubtably the best darts player ever. But darts isn't a sport, it's a pub game.
And to compare him to Ali is just laughable.
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Im sure most people will agree with me that watching the PDC and seeing (for example) '180 - 180 - 140 - 137 - 140' type sequences, with the crowd going absolutely mental, gets the juices flowing immensely, this is the kind of fare that is regular at the PDC events, especially the latter stages, only need to watch anyone from the likes of taylor, barney, wade, hamilton, klaasen, baxter, jenkins, part , king etc etc they all produce this stuff. its brilliant
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Point #26
What are you on about saying that Sky only show highlights in their darts coverage? They have 5 major PDC events a year plus the premier league and every dart thrown is shown live. All of these events have evening sessions and the top billing matches are given a prime time slot to make it possible for people to see the best players at peak times.
Contrast this with the BBC's coverage of the 2 BDO majors. The masters action is all finished by 7pm and coverage is rarely of live matches - just selected highlights (oddly selected highlights too - no Gary Anderson coverage for example). And the flagship World Darts event is on for 1 hour live in the evening and for a few hours at the weekend with absolutely no flexibility in the schedule for live matches over-running (eg. Adams vs Chilnall, Whitlock vs Fitton) when coverage is basically cut off. Granted there is full red button coverage but it's done on the cheap with no actual content or match reaction between the matches. Also, the highlights are then on at around midnight, so hardly viewer friendly.
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comment 26 struck a chord with me.
I don't care about the politics between the BDO and PDC, but i have always watched darts just as the new year comes in and i've always enjoyed the tournament, since I was little. It was that which inspired me to throw a few arrows in a freezing cold garage in the middle of january. With all the defections the BDO seems to get weaker every year but like every other sport if you want people to get into these sports as kids then you need a strong BBC covered BDO tournament. The PDC rivalries take the game to a great level, but for grass roots you can't dismiss the importance of the stuffy old BDO.
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The PDC darts was probably the best thing on TV over the Christmas & New Year holiday - mind you that probably isn't saying much.
I have tried to get into the BDO tournament this week, but I just can't. The real reason that Adams doesn't up sticks and join the PDC is he just ain't good enough - end of story.
However, I get the distinct impression that the PDC draw is "managed" (doctored). I can't recall ever seeing Phil Taylor playing a match in the afternoon. Am I mistaken? I reckon that Sky Sports dictates when he plays so ensure a maximum prime time audience.
Also, is there ever a Taylor match on Sky where Sid Waddell isn't commentating. Is that also "fixed"?
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#62 Tenipurist
Excellent post, spot on!
-----------------------------------
'cs15hammer'
You may aswell watch your darts down the pub then. A colour TV Licence costs you £139.50. The pub offers better value with beer included!
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#60. Maybe Taylor is set on another period of domination. However, in my eyes this makes for great viewing. You switch on and see someone playing their sport to an exceptional standard or you get the drama of someone beating him occassionally. I've nothing against Taylor at all but loved to see him lose (2006/2007 slump excepted). It provided excitement of the 'ring up and tell your mates to watch' variety. As long as he loses because someone else has lifted their game, not because Phil has slumped to BDO standard darts, I enjoy it. If he plays at a level that no-one can match, as he did last week, admire the craft of one of the best sportsmen around.
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Its interesting that most people here seem fixated with whether the PDC is indeed better than the BDO. It quite clearly is better, but that does not in any way devalue the Lakeside tournament.
You can look at the averages and Taylors oustanding performance on Sunday and dismiss the BDO as second rate, but that is not giving the organisation the credit it deservces.
The BDO is where the young and up and coming players can establish themselves and learn to play at the top level. True, the majority of these players then move to the PDC to earn a handsome living, but who wouldn't given half the chance.
While it may be controversial to say that the BDO is home of spiritual darts, most of the PDC players started off there. After all Sunday's PDC final was contested by two fomer BDO title holders and five out of the eight quarter finalists at Ally Pally have plied their trade in the BDO within the last 3 years.
When the 100/1 outsider Klaasen overcame Barney in the Lakeside final at the same time that Phil the Power hammered Manley 7-0 at the circus tavern, you could have argued that the BDO version was the more entertaining that year.
I myself am a massive fan of both tournaments as I am a darts fan and player.
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Phil Taylor is the world champion and rightly so, he is the best in the world.
I simply can't seriously call whoever wins the BDO world title on sunday world champion because he clearly won't be the best in the world or really that close to Taylor. In the best five if he's lucky.
It may not be exciting watching a one-sided world final but at least it actually had the two best players in the world contesting it.
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#62 and #68
well if you are saying darts is solely about mechanical averages then obviously you understand it a lot better than me. Do you sit there with a calculator and graph following the average and if they suddenly hit 100 ave, do a little dance naked down the road? And of they go below 90 suddenly switch off in disgust?
So when Taylor hit 110 ave in an early round a few years back for the best average ever, that is your favourite match ever?
When Barney came with back with guts and style to win in 2007 final against Taylor the context and contest was more important than the average. When Adams played Nixon and almost blew his 6-0 lead when trying to finally get his world crown - I wasn't quibbling about the average, as there was drama there. When Taylor and Gregory fought out their great final once people don't say well that was a great final because they got x average.
There's more to darts than average, there is history, context, competition and guts and characters.
As someone said above the choice is there take your choice between the 2 tourbaments. I'm glad I can watch both, and I do not bad mouth either event. If the BDO seems dated some of us enjoy it.
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As most above me have said, the BDO is just a step up to the PDC which is by far the better league/organisation, looking at the averages shows you that.
The very fact that the BDO insist on giving 1st 9 dart averages as well as the overall averages says it all, their doubles are so porr that the averages are pathetic when put against the PDC.
The top 25 in the PDC could beat anyone in the top 5 of the BDO, simple as that, the money is better, the entertainment is better and the standard is far far better.
Wolfie doesn't like the noise and crowns in the PDC because he shakes like a girl when throwing a double in the 1st round of the BDO against a no-body and knows there is no chance he could cope under the pressure of the PDC, I notice that he also refuses to play the masters where both sides are welcome as he himself is more than aware that he is not good enough to compete against the best.
Look at those who have moved accross more recently, Van Barnevald, Klassen, Van Gerwin, Van de Vaart, King, and the list goes on, all were better than wolfie when playing in the BDO and yet, although not struggling (and take Barney out the equation for this one) thery are not immediately the best in the PDC.
Until the BDO accepts their place they will be a laughing stock (incidently even Bristow now only commentates on PDC).
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This debate will always rage.
But with all the transfers since Barney, the PDC undoubtedly have the better darts overall.
Yes, you get good matches in BDO Fitton v Whitlock a good example last night and you get some shockers in the PDC like Wade v Nicholson q/f but overall the PDC is where the best darts is and that's what matters to most of us darts fans.
The crowd in the PDC are horrible yes, but that's Barry Hearn ramming as many in as he can to generate the cash, doesn't bother me, a TV viewer.
Sid is starting to get on my nerves with his constant "stacking" and "use of the lie" technical ramblings, but that's not enough for me to prefer watching inferior darts.
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Its obvious that many players will go where they can earn most money. I watch both tournaments and enjoy both I do find wolfie a bit of a boring world champion but having said that i'm not a great fan of taylor.
The gap between the 2 isn't as big as many make out put taylor and barney aside who are quite clearly in a league of their own and you have mervyn king in the semi's who never won a BDO championship.
I watch alot of pdc darts and it is entertaining but the bdo is a bit more unpredictable pdc is dominated by taylor and barney.
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15: you miss the point that darts is played indoors and to my knowledge it is illegal to smoke inside.
The other point that everyone seems to miss on here is that every PDC player is an ex BDO player.
I agree that the best players are in the PDC but this is simply because of the money involved.
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Wrong!
Sky's coverage of the PDC World Championships, as with all of their darts coverage, is superb.
I went to the Ally Pally for a session of darts and the atmosphere was fantastic. It seems that the occasion transcends the sport - like the Football World Cup.
In comparison, the BBC coverage is lacklustre and the standard of darts is relatively poor.
Give me the Power and all that's great about the PDC over the BBC and BDO any day of the week.
Da dadada daa dada dada daa dada dada daa. Oi! Oi! Oi!
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Can't help but comment on the person who has saisd "the BDO has all the personalities and the better TV coverage" - are you mental?? seriously that is a ridiculous statement.
They have Adam's who has no personality, Webster, the same he's like a very poor James Wade, and a man who pretends he's dracula!!!!
what are you on, the BBC stops coverage at what 7pm, then you need the red button and even then converage stops between matches, an absolute farce, thsoe who disagree are watching something different to me or are just biased towards the BDO, I watch both and always hope the BDO standard rises, but it never does.
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one last comment cause the naivity of some people is annoying me now...
"every PDC player is an ex BDO player" - really? think you'll find this is not even remotely true
"Barney and Tayor dominate the PDC and outside of them the standard is similar" - really?? have a look at planetdarts.tv and see who won the PDC tournaments this year, Taylor won a few, Barney won I think 0, Wade won some plus a few others so don#'t talk rubbish.
If you're not going to do your research don't bother making these totally incorrect statements.
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POST 3 - regarding Sid Waddell - I completely agree
The PDC is obviously the number one tournament - however SKY's obsession with constantly ramming the point down viewers throats drives me nuts - for example prior to the Taylor/Barney final Sky were trying to bill it as the 'greatest ever darts match in history' funnily enough it turned in to the usual Taylor walkover, hardly worth watching after the 3rd set
I'm also dismayed that Sky tried to con the viewers into thinking that Barneveld's 9 dart finish was 'the first ever in the World Championships' - I think not - Paul Lim did one in the Embassy in 1990 - just another example of SKY's 'we own the whole of sport' attitude - pathetic
As for Sid Waddell, well annoying is an understatement..I used to love the guy, but over recent years his commentary has become predictable and repetitive to the extreme - in particular he's become obsessed with Taylor's 'scientific understacking' !! he must have coined this phrase about 100 times over the course of the tournament - someone should put him out of his misery
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Hi All,
I have read the posts with much interest and I have to say I was at Lakeside on sat and as good fun as it was its not a patch on the PDC. There is a pretty big gulf in class but as people I was talking to on Saturday said Lakeside makes for a good breeding ground for the PDC which is a fair point.
Personally for me if I am going to watch Live Darts I want to go and see the blokes i see on TV every week in the Premier League - The Barneys, Taylors, Manleys, Mardles etc - watching a bunch of fat old blokes chucking 80 averages is not the way forward.
Im off to Ally Pally this December!
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Everyone knows that the PDC is better, but there are some interesting points here...
Last week when the PDC was on trying to find the results on the BBC website was like pulling teeth, now all of a sudden while the BBC shows the BDO championship there is a darts section, funny that. Surely the BBC should be impartial and not try to big up it's own event by barely covering its rival?
Also I noticed in this article that no-one who has been involved with the PDC was invited to pass comment, despite the fact several BDO luminaries have had their say quite vociferously.
Propaganda? You decide.
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"Aah, but Wolfie, how can you be so naive? Everyone knows that you can cheat to your heart's content in cycling and athletics, serve a two-year ban and all will be forgiven. "
That's a bit naive yourself, Mr. Dirs. Look at poor old Dwain Chambers who has tried to atone by doing everything but put himself in the stocks for people to lob tomatoes at; he can't seem to get a race for love nor money. Or the wave of Italian cyclists (Magnani, Ricco, Basso, Sella, Chiappucci) who have been banned and all but ostracised from the Italian sporting consciousness.
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#82
Surely the BBC will always give extra coverage and priority to the programmes and events that it shows in it's own channels?
People put down the quality of the BDO. But Barney played 15 BDO world champs and Mervyn King over 10. Both PDC semi finalists this year and have played far less BDO tournaments.
Taylor and Barney (who is as much BDO as PDC) I don't think there is that much difference between the top 5 other players. OK someone like Lewis will have a good day with average sometime, but I am sure people like Anderson and Webster could beat him.
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I actually like both organisations... I'll happily watch both when they're on and the lower standard in the BDO hasn't really bothered me in the past. However, the standard of game's in this year's 1st round at the Lakeside was shocking - some very poor performers.
The problem with the BDO is that - rightly or wrongly - the masses and even casual-ish darts fans aren't particularly interested anymore. It's as if only now, some 20 years later, the effects of the split are REALLY beginning to show due to the increasing SKY coverage, all the best players leaving, the GSOD coverage on ITV, etc. The BDO only televises 2 tournaments a year, one of which lasts 2 days. They give live games 1 hour per night on BBC and a bit at weekends... Highlights at ridiculous times when noone will be able to watch... Even the stauchest BDO supporter will have to admit that it's poor...
Some other observations. While the PDC commentary is silly at times, and Waddell's nonsense is out of control these days, Tony Green really is dire to listen to. Ex and current players really do make the best commentators regardless of affiliation.
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I think the general agreement is there is room in this would for both the bdo and the pdc.
The Pdc has labelled itself the premiership of darts and this is true . It is where u can make a full tiem living from the professional sport you play, this is not the case with bdo so they will always have this amatueurish status.
Once again though if you are a darts fan you will watch both as they offer somthing competely different.
The PDC a high class polished product, the bdo a slightly stuffy old fashioned thing, but it is like visiting an old relative you are always happy to see it.
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could someone please tell me why the BBC persist in the afternoons showing 3 hours of highlights of the previous evening of darts, and then when it comes to the live coverage they cut the coverage of the one and only match shown live, just as it gets exciting?????
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about the commentary - I agree Wadell is awful to listen too but Tony Green and Bobby George on the BBC don't have a clue, get someone else in.
Yesterday I was watching and, can't remember who it was, but a player was on 82 with 3 darts in his hand and threw for bull, which you see all the time in PDC as hitting bullobviously leaves 32 and hitting 25 leaves 57 meaning a simple 17 double top is left - Bobby george's comment was "why on earth is he throwing for bull, I;ve never seen that by someone on 82 before it doesn't make any sense"
Tony didn't correct him and if they've never seem it finished like this before it just shows that the BDO are well below par.
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#86
i completely agree. Some people will like one or the other , others will completely dismiss one or the other. The choice is good. I like the PDC for the fact it has the best players mainly. The BDO still has some good players who could be PDC top 10 and it also has the old style unpolished school darts cr*ppyness that some of us like.
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Re: TeniPurist - "You seem to be missing the point that in darts, averages ARE everything."
Unlike a lot of sports, I assume the best darts players play better in practice that in competition, because of the lack of pressure. Is this the case? If so, we'd probably be better off watching them practice than watching them compete. Unless, that is, the interest lies in the competition rather than the stats....
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Blimey, it's all kicked off...
Difficult to reply to each individual comment, but here goes:
First, it should be remembered that the piece is a blog. If it had been written as a straight feature, then of course I would have sought to make it more balanced. But it is essentially a record of my day out at the Lakeside, and as such it reflects only the thoughts of some BDO members about its rival, and not vice versa.
DavidUnesco - "Surely the BBC should be impartial and not try to big up it's own event by barely covering its rival?" Erm, we did daily reports on the Sky event, just as we do daily reports on the BBC one, so it's not particularly helpful just making stuff up. Conversely, I don't remember Sky mentioning the BDO event at all.
As for the standard of play, of course the PDC is better, there's no getting away from that. But I would also point out that Sky were forced to pull away from one of their first round matches because the standard was so poor, so it's not all great over there.
Clearly most people replying to this blog prefer the PDC, and I can understand that: more razzmattazz, better standard, the best player ever. But of course BDO members are going to stick up for their organisation, and the blog reflects the thoughts of any of the fans I spoke to, namely that while they all loved the PDC event, they all believed the Lakeside was the spritual home of darts. But then they would say that, they were there.
culopelosa - You seem to have a great deal of sympathy for these cycling cheats that have been "ostracised". Poor lambs.
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Just one more thing...
A lot of grief for Sid Waddell, which I must say I'm surprised at. If there is one commentator who has done more for his respective sport, I'd like someone to name him. But I agree with his obsession with "stacking". What's that all about?
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Not sure if all comments have been taken or reported in correct context but as a half decent pub player who follows both I'd suggest that the BDO is still the main source of upcoming talent purely because it costs less to participate. It is true to say that the PDC has the better players and this is due to money. Robert Thorton moved to the PDC after getting £100 or so for reaching last 8 of a BDO Open whilst he was seeing one of the PDC guys get £8,000 or something for getting to same stage (albeit of one of the TV titles). I think that both the BDO and PDC have a part to play in darts but I do have a slight concern with the PDC at the moment. That is that in trying to take over the mantle of the "people's sport" from football (Barry Hearn has mentioned this I think) they go too far down that road and end up pricing the "people" out of attending the darts. The issue of the Ally Pally venue is intersting ... personally I wasn't that impressed with it and thought the Circus Tavern was far superior for atmosphere etc (albeit the Tavern is a bit of a dump essentially on the edge of an industrial estate) but the move is once again about money. The success of the Premier League (whether you believe that it's effectively a football crowd at a darts match or not) meant the jump to a bigger venue to make more money .... to be fair this money is getting fed back into the darts comps (albeit at the higher level of the game). Whilst the BDO claim a more "educated" crowd at Lakeside I'd suggest that these are people who play and watch darts most weeks whilst there are more non darters at the PDC event but to some extent that's because there are just more people. If the BDO people have a look back at some of the early tournaments like the News of the World or even the older world champs they'll see there was a lot more noise going on back then. As I say I believe there is a place for both, essentially the BDO being the feeder system to a large extent for the best players to move on and make real money via the PDC, however, I would suggest that whether it's Sky or BBC the commentators of Sid Waddell and Tony Green have both seen their best days ..... and those days were a long time ago ..... please get rid of both !!
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I am not sure why people are criticising BBC airtime. The games are all on red button which I am sure loads of people have access to, and included in the licence fee of 12 quid which pays for the overall BBC service for a year, and I find there is a lot more to watch besides darts.
If you want to watch PDC you have to sign up to the 40 quid a month sky service (I wouldnt find too much else to watch) , so I find this far more inaccessible.
#90 my points exactly. Looks like you have to have an excel spreadsheet to appreciate darts these days according to some on here.
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PDC are in a different league than the BDO. 1. they earn more money
2. they are better players (Taylor average 110 wont be beaten by any BDO players)
3. better coverage
4. darts walk on girls
5. Sid Waddell
You are not really world champion unless you are in PDC cause Phil 'The Power' Taylor is not in the BDO draw.
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I've played darts for years but because I'm an American living in Germany, don't get to play it much, let alone watch.
But Eurosport and DSF (German sports channel) were showing the two champs simultaneously, and without a doubt, the PDC was 10x better.
The pts about stats being shown was a good one (they never appear on BDO).
And sadly, when the women faced each other, the futility of them hitting doubles (and triples) was agonizing. True, more tension some of the time, but absolutely zero talent.
Are there equally talented women to the men on PDC? Or even to the men on BDO?
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t's not about the red button. I know it's there, we all do, it's fine. However, the BBC doesn't seem to have faith in actually promoting it's competition properly. On the red button you have to wait between games for half an hour with results and upcoming matches. Isn't it interesting that, nearly 20 years after the split, the BDO are still showing such a lack of ambition?
It's fair enough for those of who want to make the effort to watch it, but it's not attracting new fans, and doesn't seem bothered. Why?
I'm not a BDO basher, but it's slipping away drastically IMO. If Anderson, Whitlock, Webster, etc leave this year, we might see Edwin Max as favourite for next year's "World Championship" - know what i mean?
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#94
A thread elsewhere suggests the BDO signing up with Setanta so your licence fee won't get you BDO darts either.
Perhaps Ben Dirs can squash that rumour?
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#97
I understand your points. But as you say yourself " know it's there, we all do, it's fine." then surely the casual watcher can pick it up too and they will know it is there too?
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#16
Ever seen a professional football player miss an open goal?
I thought so.
Missing the dart board is very, very, very awful play but it can happen.
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#98
its ok thanks if it goes to Setanta. I subscribe to their reasonable priced internet service which unlike Sky's is accessible and good value.
And I will continue to find plenty of other things on the BBC to justify the 12 quid.
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Phil Taylor will win the BDO title without breaking sweat also.
Who does Martin Adams think he is also. He is so small. The PDC dont need him. Funny cause PDC are getting all the big players from the BDO.
Why you may say.
The reason is the PDC is Premiership & the BDO is Non league. Sorry but thats the truth.
U watch the Prem league darts filling 10000 seats BDO could not fill 2000.
I love darts but will never watch the BDO championships cause darts already has a world champion Phil 'The Power' Taylor.
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ATNotts - The BDO are already with Setanta, and have been for months. They broadcast five 'Grand Prix' tournaments between May-September last year. As for the world champs, as far as I know the BBC have just signed a new thgree-year extension.
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99.
I don't think it's conducive to attracting new fans that's all. I don't want to sit and watch screens for half an hour and i love darts. Why would a less fervent fan be bothered with it? Answer - they probably won't... Responses to this thread show that that's probably the case...
Yes, you can switch over during the breaks, but there's no analysis, no build up - basically no effort. Then they try to make you feel bad for saying so, like you're some sort of crowd-following hypemonger who couldn't possibly appreciate "real darts" - know what i mean? The BDO is losing the plot. I am genuinely sad about that.
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#104
once something finds it's way on to BBCi for whatever reason , it normally gets reduced dressed up coverage. For example the snooker does not have the waffle in between games either.
Personally I'm not to fussed about the intergame waffle and blarney. Sky over do it anyway.
The beeb now has full match coverage on BBCi when it used to get more BBC2 coverage. Now it has less BBC2 coverage but more overall coverage. I don't see a problem with it. There is still enough BBC2 coverage to get those that are interested interested to then wtahc moreon BBCi.
If BDO is struggling I think it is to more with the players than the beeb's coverage.
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But isn't the lack of/standard of coverage/tournaments a major factor in the quality of players?
Look at the PDC line-up. Look how many of those players are former BDO players... Why are they all leaving? Same reason they all left in the first place... Only now it's getting critical, but yet the BDO persists with the usual defensive reasoning and paranoid backchat instead of doing something about it...
Seriously, i dread to think of the 2015 championship line up...
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#88
I can't understand how Bobby George has never seen anyone throw for bull when wanting 82 as I'm pretty sure Eric Bristow used to go that way. If it wasn't him then it was certainly one of his contemporaries.
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Bored Bored Bored, I am so bored of this BDO vs PDC debate some of the points made are laughable obviously by people who have little to no knowledge of the game and would probably rather play the game on an xbox rather than actually get a board and throw some.
OK, this is how it is:
Many of the best PDC players begin life in the BDO and many of the best BDO players seek the better prize money of the PDC.
The argument that the BDO is of lesser quality is just not valid. When BDO players move to the PDC they do not suddenly overnight become a better player its the same player.
There is also a case of having the blinkers on for all other tournaments outside the PDC and BDO organisations. Yes Phil Taylor my dominate the PDC world championship once a year but he gets beaten in other tournaments by BDO players as well as other PDC players. He's been beaten by Martin Adams and Gary Anderson in recent tournaments.
Right, I'm off to throw some tonne eighties and checkout from 170 blindfolded and left handed. Finally, someone delete the word "Tungsten" from Sid Waddell's vocab, he uses it in every sentence and its getting tiresome.
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#97
Sky broadcast their coverage on a dedicated sports channel, whereas the Beeb have to broadcast on a general purpose channel. Can you imagine the furore if they cancelled Eastenders to allow a darts match to finish?
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#109
The darts is on BBC2, Eastenders is on BBC1. The worst that would've happened is we would have missed Bill Oddie describing his latest tit in winter watch or whatever.
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"The argument that the BDO is of lesser quality is just not valid. When BDO players move to the PDC they do not suddenly overnight become a better player its the same player. "
The strength in depth of the BDO is becoming increasingly poor - obviously the indiviudal players don't change if/when they switch, but the overall standard is decreasing and it seems that it's beginning to struggle to replenish itself when the big boys leave... I'm sure the guy can play much better, and i'm sure he was disappointed with his performance personally, but there was a boy on the other day who didn't throw a single 140 in 9 legs - know what i mean?
The argument is defintely valid.
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#111
Just like the early rounds of the PDC I think you'll find, with the random wild cards and overseas qualifiers.
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#110
some people like tits.
They show a decent amount on BBC2 and the fans can watch the rest easily on BBCi. Dont see the problem. More accessible than Sky.
The BDO still feels like the quality event to me but without many but not all of the best players. The BDO event feels like the one representative of the darting world and roots and its chavvy heritage which is kind of sweet. Some will see that as archiac.
The PDC one seems to be a hyped up tv circus designed to make money, bit like the Kerry Packer cricketing events. The BDO and Lakeside and Beeb feels like a permanent thing, whilst the PDC and Sky is not seen by so many and feels like the stage at Ally Pally and the rentacrowd can just be torn down and moved on.
What the PDC has is of course many good players and Taylor and better quality play.
I went to a PDC PL event last year and it was awful in the crowd, the tv screens were far too small and very poor hospitality.
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Okay, there was some poor quality there too, but a) that is a preliminary round designed to give the championships a worldwide flavour, b) this was in the last 32 of the BDO, not in the 65th-76th ranked players as it was in the PDC tournament...
There is no strength in depth in the BDO.
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@ 100
That was actually the first time i've seen a pro miss the dart board and hit the outer rubber.
When they miss a double by an inch it's described as missing by a mile, missing the board itself is something i'd expect to see on a Tuesday playing in our local (just for fun) darts league.
To the people who want to see 'close' matches rather than big averages... Would you rather watch 180s with everyone getting excited or hearing the announcer go "45, 60, 41 etc etc"... Generally the skill involved to snatch a leg is higher in the PDC as one bad set of darts and you're out the leg, it says alot that you can throw arrows like you're blind in BDO and still stay in the leg/match.
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#114
Reeeaalllly, rank 65 - 75. And how is Anastasia doing in the order of merit nowadays???? Roll up roll up.
#113
No, I agree. I am just saying to the guy before who complained about a darts match being cut off at its climax by eastenders. The red button is the way forward and lets be honest who hasn't got digital nowadays apart from the analogue die hards who won't get a new TV until the moment the signal is switched off.
#115
Obviously didn't see the Fitton vs Whitlock last night then, some brilliant scoring and high quality darts all round. A brilliant match.
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That is the rank in the tournament. 75 players (or whatever it is), those are the lowest ranked. 70-75 worst players might have played badly. In this the 32nd worst player was even worse than those players... Moreover, those guys qualified by winning the Carribean qualifier, Chinese qualifier, you would expect that to be less competitive, whereas in the BDO some of these guys qualified rightfully...
It's not important anyway, i'm only using it to highlight the lack of strength in depth of the BDO, which, as i have said, is getting worse. I'm not pleased about that, know what i mean. I'm not on here making these points to try to slate the BDO for the sake of it, i just honestly think it needs a kick up the backside or it's in trouble...
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Post 106,
"Seriously, i dread to think of the 2015 championship line up..."
The BDO, if nothing else, is the birth place of all the good players the only problem being they can't keep hold of them. This, as you quite rightly pointed out is due to the way in which they structure their calender. Very few big tournament's during the year equates to less oppurtunity for prize money resulting in player's having to leave to even get a sniff.
I remember hearing that kind of comment as long ago as 92 when the PDC was formed but here we are and the BDO is still plugging away. This is due to the wealth of talent they continually bring through and by the looks of it, will keep doing so.
As for Taylor, well, the man is awesome but I do think the sport will be better for his absence on the oche. I watch him and despite being in awe of his talent can't help but feel the competition would provide better viewing without that air of expectancy when he comes into a match. Last years final was one of the best ever, the fact Taylor lost made it that bit more special personally, broke the monotony.
On another note, much has been made of this average difference between the two bodies. Not but statistics, has no reflection on viewing pleasure and only serves to demonstrate that the PDC has better players. I think we already knew that...
High averages and good viewing don't always go hand in hand, besides how many people in the Ally Pally are sitting there with calculators? Exactly.
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@116
I saw highlights of it, admittedly wasn't a bad game. But that sort of game is few and far between in the BDO, the strength in depth just isn't there.
-----
Would people rather watch Tiger Woods win a major by 5 shots, or watch some journeyman on the Challenge Tour (the tour beneath the main European Tour) win their Tour Championship?
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"I remember hearing that kind of comment as long ago as 92 when the PDC was formed but here we are and the BDO is still plugging away. This is due to the wealth of talent they continually bring through and by the looks of it, will keep doing so."
I hope you're right, but I couldn't disagree more - it's in terrible shape, at least in short-term. If Anderson, Whitlock, Webster, Fitton and other top players leave this year (as has been rumoured), i struggle to see their replacements... I will, however, keep watching ;-) Others, however, won't...
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averages dont mean anything, i agree with the wenger way, i watch darts for the enjoyment of a close game. Of course its nice to see big scores and high finishes but ultimately i would like to see a close game than a taylor walk over.
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The one thing the replies to this blog do show at least is that there are still plenty of punters about who love their darts...
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People are taking this 'blog' completely out of context. This is not a BBC sports report by which someone is completely siding with the BDO. It's essentially the goings on of that particular day / week / experience.
We all know the PDC is the better darts, and we all know it's more of that boxing-esque entertainment, but that's sky and that's what a lot of people want to see - if darts is to appeal to a wider audience, it has to appeal and be more aggressive and in your face. PDC does this.
It does seem that BDO is for the purists as far as viewing goes, but i reckon if you asked any darts fan (regardless of what the crowd is like or the TV coverage is like) which players they'd like to see, most would say players of the PDC.
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"I hope you're right, but I couldn't disagree more - it's in terrible shape, at least in short-term. If Anderson, Whitlock, Webster, Fitton and other top players leave this year (as has been rumoured), i struggle to see their replacements... I will, however, keep watching ;-) Others, however, won't..."
I understand your concern and it is a considered one but it has been like this for many years. I thought, and may still be proved right, that when Barney left it was the beginning of the end but there is still people there to keep it afloat.
I will concede that the BDO need to do something sooner rather than later.
I would not begrudge any player leaving for the PDC, it is obvious why but as long as the magic of Lakeside remains there will always be a chance.
I hope.......
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I have been watching darts on the TV since it first started in the 70's and personally I feel that the PDC is the one to watch because it's more in touch with the times. Wolfie should be called sheepie really, the only reason that he hasn't joined the PDC is because he would get hammered and would struggle to make the top 20 in the rankings. There are pro's and con's for both. The coverage on the BBC is a load of rubbish but on Sky it can get a bit 'in yer face'. The BDO do a women's title but why not put them all together? Why would a woman be a lesser player than a bloke? The days of Jocky Wilson, Eric Bristow and John Lowe are long gone so move forward. There will always be arguments for and against and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't have a tv but brought a package for just 20euro which allowed me to watch the whole of the PDC event on my pc, perfect!
The only annoying thing about the PDC coverage is the players having to leave the stage for commercial breaks.
Now here's a clincher; after watching the PDC version I found the final a complete damp squib after some tremendous games. Phil Taylor should go join the BDO and leave the PDC to get a bit of entertainment back, the REAL final was Barney/Baxter, pure class. Phil Taylor is becoming as boring as man utd or the 70's/80's version of liverpool and he should take that idiot Wayne Mardle with him, I just wish that Stompe had burst his stupid palm trees..... That's entertainment!
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The PDC clearly has the higher quality players - trying to deny that is ridiculous. The BDO is little more than a feeder organisation now. That may be down to money but I don't begrudge players that and the simple reality is that the PDC are and have been just far more commercially aware.
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Every sport in the last 10 years has been glamourised by money and the media culture it inflicts.
I am a 22 year old, have been playing darts for around 5 years and can say that from watching, and playing, the standard is much higher within the PDC, however it is easier to get into the BDO on the national circuit.
I have played with local players who have played for both factions, they have said that getting knocked out in round 2 of standard PDC tournament earns more money than making the semi finals of most BDO tournaments.
Undoubtably the PDC has given darts the youthful kick up the backside it needed 10 years ago, if you watch any BDO finals from the 70's onwards it was relatively drab, the atmosphere was low, and looking at the standard so was the darts.
Why would this intice youngsters to get into the sport?
As a 15 year old boy i remember watching a Taylor final for the first time, and even to this day, everytime i hear the start of his entrance music, and the commentator building up the hype in a much bigger arena than the BDO, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
He is, and to be honest, the PDC is, the reason i picked up a set of darts.
I sit and watch the BDO now and cannot believe the standard of darts that is thrown.
I as a player would play in the BDO to get onto the circuit and gain experience as it is much easier to do so, however the PDC's prize funds, and for the sole fact that if it wasnt for them i would not be inclined to pick up darts, would probably move factions.
The PDC is entertainment, but it is also some would say, the saviour of the sport.
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#125.!
Clearly you are an idiot, who like many hate people that are successful.
Phil Taylor is one of the main reasons darts is growing and having more money in it and appealing to a wider audience.
The final wasn't a contest, but it was a show of pure darting class by a man who can only be compared with Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, in their sports.
Barney was outclassed, and considering how good he is, it shows that players must now do to catch Phil. 110 AVG!
PHIL TAYLOR got their too by working his butt off, practicing, practicing, practicing.
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Why waste your money and watch the BDO when you could go and watch the PDC.Far far better standard.
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#115 said "To the people who want to see 'close' matches rather than big averages... Would you rather watch 180s with everyone getting excited or hearing the announcer go "45, 60, 41 etc etc"... Generally the skill involved to snatch a leg is higher in the PDC as one bad set of darts and you're out the leg, it says alot that you can throw arrows like you're blind in BDO and still stay in the leg/match."
well Im glad other people have agreed that high averages doesn't always make exciting and interesting viewing and matches.
I think you over typically exagarate the scoring above with your "45, 60, 41 etc etc" above. Hughes scored 9 out of 10 doubles last night against Anderson which is very good finishing even for the PDC. Waites scored well in his match. Fitton scroed well and Whitlock too in an exciting match. There is still some good darts in the BDO, yes averages not quite as much of course as PDC but the old school atmos (non Sky entotainment cheese) and Lakeside and Beeb adds on a few extra points to a theoritical average in my mind. Also personally prefer the open tournament you get in BDO rather than always seeing Taylor win.
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I know Neil, one of the interviewees in the article, and can tell you categorically that the town he and his father-in-law George (also interviewed) are from BORDON in Hampshire. Not BORD-E-N.
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It really annoys me how PDC fans dismiss the BDO and its players. Its true that in the past 3/4 years the PDC standard has risen to a higher standard than the BDO.
To say that only two players from the BDO could make it across is just wrong. Look at players like King, Stompe, Thornton etc who are new to the PDC and startin to rise up the rankings very quickly. These are players that had some sucess in the BDO but never won a world championship or had consistant sucess. PDC old guards like Manley, Mardle, Lloyd, Preistley (all top 10 PDC players) are no different to BDO old guards like adams (who consistanly averages 95+) hankey (most 180's ever in a world championship) fitton (second highest average ever 113) o'shea (constitanly over 90).
If the old guard BDO players came over youd find them very quickly in the Top 15.
Thats not even mentioning top BDO players like Gary Anderson who I hope does move across because he can compete for Top 3. Waites who is averagen consitantly over 95+.
So many players have moved from the BDO to PDC in recent times in little surprise there strugglin a bit for true talent (outside the players Iv mentioned).
The PDC is definatly the place to be if your a top player and want to prove yourself and personally I would like to see all the top BDO players going over and proving their abilty.
But until that happens knocking the BDO players is just stupid because as last night second round games proved theres still alot of talent in the BDO. Talent that would replace the likes of manley, lloyd etc in an instant.
The PDC fanboys seem to be out in force but can Im a darts fan and I like watchin darts, whether its PDC, WDF or in the pub Im still enjoyin it.
Havin two organsations is stupid but it can work, but two world championships? No thats completly ridiculus! Surely the two org. can get together and make one unified world championship!
That is all.
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#132
I completely agree. There is still good darts in the BDO.
Barney played there for 15 years and suddenly he is a PDC darling and the 2nd best player there, well he was BDO for ages. Before he moved the PDC luvvies used to diss the BDO players but now Barney is 'quality'.
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That's a terrible blog. it's really unclear where the two darts organisations have their championships - in fact the article says that the PDC is at Purfleet and at Alexandra Palace ! - and therfore what the point of the story is. Can anybody help?
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Sorry PDC you are simply the dart's version of football's Premier League: all money, no history and no class
what are you on about?? The top division in football has been around, under one name or another since 1888.... that's a lot of history if you ask me!
And i'm looking at this from the outside, as a neutral to either side it's pretty clear the BDO is far inferior... I watched it to cheer myself up at the poor quality on display the other day!
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Many of the players at the top of the PDC circuit have come from BDO, yet the BDO always replaces these players.
Move players like Barney, Klassens, King, Van der Voort, Van Gerwen, Thornten, Stompe (all recently crossed over) back to the BDO & just think how much of a better BDO competition we would have had.
Only Barney was a multiple major winnr on the BDO circuit.
Once Taylor finishes im not sure the gap in class will be so obvious.
The only difference between the two really is the money on offer, meaning any half decent player would be silly not to switch to the PDC.
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Many of the players at the top of the PDC circuit have come from BDO.
Move players like Barney, Klassens, King, Van der Voort, Van Gerwen, Thornten, Stompe (all recently crossed over) back to the BDO & just think how much of a better BDO competition we would have had.
Only Barney was a multiple major winnr on the BDO circuit.
Once Taylor finishes im not sure the gap in class will be so obvious.
The only difference between the two really is the money on offer, meaning any half decent player would be silly not to switch to the PDC.
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Also if BDO goes to Setanta & players stay with the BDO due to increased prize money, we'll then start to have a more even playing field, then in 5 years lets see.
PDC isnt know for developing its own players is it now.
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'what are you on about?? The top division in football has been around, under one name or another since 1888.... that's a lot of history if you ask me!"
yeah but Sky insist the top flight started in 1992...
Yes the quality is less in the BDO but still some really good play and matches.
It would be interesting to see what would happen to the PDC if Phil Taylor decided to go back to the roots and home of the game and the BDO.
The BDO has the infrastructure, Beeb and Lakeside to give it stability that has meant it has been weakened and continued without Taylor and some its own champions that defected. The PDC is a travelling circus for the money men, and held together with a Sky deal, I am not so sure it would survive without Taylor.
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aredeegee - Come on mate, it's not difficult. The "BDO World Darts Championship [is] at the Lakeside in Frimley Green" - that's a quote from my opening paragraph. I then refer to the 2007 PDC final being in Purfleet, and two paragraphs later I say: "Alexandra Palace, the PDC World Championship's cavernous new home." From that, you should be able to work out that the PDC has moved from Purfleet to Alexandra Palace (in fact it did so last year).
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further to #139 i mean that the BDO event at the Lakeside and on the Beeb just feels in tune with that darts is, people's game , slightly dated and cheesy maybe but you love it for it. Trying to make it into a money oriented boxing entotainment circus on Sky just doesnt seem so right to me.
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Just to reiterate the point for these still banging on about the PDC being a better standard, yes, most of us accept that but it does not negate the enjoyment of watching the BDO, despite its flaws. For me, it has a bit more of the human touch about it.
But can't we all settle this over a pint and a few 'arrers?
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I watched Fitton vs Whitlock last night and the standard of darts was really quite poor. The BDO have no quality players at all and the ones they did have moved over to the PDC because they know you cannot be considered one of the big names in darts at the BDO.
Just finished watchin Martin Adams vs Daryl Gurney and it was unbelievably bad. Adams was regularly missing doubles by an inch and still won the match, his average must have been terrible.
How people can even begin to compare the PDC and the BDO is a joke. There is no way anyone in the current BDO could even come close to getting to the final in any major PDC tournament. Remember the match between barney and taylor when barney was still in the BDO??? Taylor destroyed him 21 - 10 and barney has had to really up his game now hes in the PDC. Even with a 102 average he still loses 7-1!!! Do people seriously think a BDO player could get into the final of the PDC world championships??? Ive yet to see an average of over 100 in the BDO worlds and i dont think i will. Commentator just said 'hes getin the cover shot, he's hitting everything'. He is only averaging 91!!!
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#143 - "How people can even begin to compare the PDC and the BDO is a joke."
Have you just ignored the majority of the previous 142 comments?
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#143
we've already replied to you PDC average watchers above. We acknowledge the standard is better in the PDC but there are recent BDO defectees that have done well in the PDC WC and some of the current BDO players would too.
The BDO is the tournament true to darts and personally I am glad it continues and people like Martin Adams etc remain positive about it and talk it up. As I said above if Taylor went back to the BDO I think the PDC would crumble as it is built on weak foundations.
I dont want sport to all become Skyised. Darts should remain for the general public.
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#144
yep hes ignored the comments. Hes an 'average' watcher. He monitors the average and when it goes under 90 he swtiches it off because Sky viewers demanding quality and boom boom boom all the time.
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#146
Quite right. I love watching a decent competition and like a lot of the bloggers here, terrestial TV coverage really got me hooked; Less gloss, more heart.
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and here comes the Count, what an athlete he is......now he doesnt drink lol ... "be on your way"
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I like old Ted.
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To be perfectly honest, this article just comes across as bitter. And I don't think the relationship between them is helped by stupid comments like Wolfie's.
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#151
i agree that there's a fine line between standing up for their organisation and 'darting life' they are proud of and want to defend - and being over-defensive and therefore 'sad and bitter'. I dont blame them because they are obviously proud of their event and organisation and have been under attack.
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yeh right im an average watcher. Its not because at the standard BDO darts players are, there is no way i can find it interesting. If i wanted to see darts played that poorly id go down the local pub. And ive ignored the majority of the comments above because a lot of them are made by BDO fans who clearly dont have a clue about good darts or a good atmosphere.
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#152
depends on what you call a good atmosphere and good darts. Ive been to the PDC WC live about 8 times and BDO WC about 15. BDO is far better DARTS atmos. PDC is a SKY drummed up boxing glam rock atmos which you obviously like, whilst BDO is a darts atmosphere because it is a true darts tournament. Having Taylor hitting 100+ average or not just not change that.
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I've never read such a bitter and one sided arguement about comparing the BDO to the PDC. I think that if Ben Dirs, Yes thats his real name who wrote the article was writing it for a newspaper it would be less biased towards both the BBC coverage and BDO.
There has always been drinking involved in the darts so drunk fans is nothing new and whats wrong with entertainment because i believe thats why people pay to go watch darts and any other sport for that matter. If we kept to our roots in there would be no progression in any sport. Imagine a game of football without your flair players because the players have been injured either kicking the early style ball or been snapped in two by the dangerous disgusting play that used to be rife in the game.
The PDC are showing just how much potential there is in darts which sadly under the BDO would never have happened. Who'd of thought we would have a premier league darts and full arena tours. The players can earn enough money to take the sport seriously and improve to levels way way above than what the BDO is offering.
As for darts being an Olympic Sport? If archery and shooting which are similar in discipline can be aswell as that funny walking thing they have can be class as sports then its a no brainer.
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wel the PDC has got all the better players in it and so will sell out bigger arenas and so the atmosphere will inevitably be a lot louder and in my opinion better. People want to go to darts and drink and have a good time and watch good darts, not go and watch mediokre darts in small venues with fewer people. Its like a football crowd at a fotball match. Bigger crowd = Better atmosphere
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#155
"Who'd of thought we would have a premier league darts and full arena tours. "
That's progress is it? Turning it into a hyped travelling rock n roll tour.
Personally I preferred the days when darts was darts had roots, was democratic and for the public and people, bit cheesy sure, and the nation en masse could tune into watch the world champs on terrestial tv. Not some elite money and player circuit on exclusive money grabbing Sky events that sport has become and lost its soul to.
Good luck BDO.
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#155 if the standard is so mediocre how can 4 recent defectees, Klassen, King, Barney and Stompe all get to the 1/4s of the PDC WC? Go back to your average watching!
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I enjoy darts and was at the Taylor vs Barney final last week and at the Lakeside on the weekend when Hankey won.
The PDC is very manufactured and top quality but really gets the crowd going. People go to be entertained and sing and drink and they do. However, they got to see some amazing darts and every throw was watched and cheered.
At the Lakeside people looked embarassed by Hankey. He looked like your dad in a silly outfit turning up and embarassing you at your birthday party.
On top of that I have never seen so many so call BDO fans not watching the darts. Many were more interested in reading the paper or texting their friends.
The atmosphere was more like a working mens club than a world championship.
The games I saw also just were poor. Most of the players look like average players and to call it a World Championship next to the PDC is a joke.
The BDO is going to struggle to exist longer term as the PDC can afford to pay players to play darts as a job.
If you had the choice - earn thousands and play darts for a job or do a day job and hope to make a bit of money now and then which would you choose?
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Probably because they were the 4 best the BDO had! and even only one of those has done anything in the PDC. BDO is just a stepping stone for the PDC. Once those players began to get better they moved on. Although i spose wolfie with his average of 90 isnt at all mediokre. Thats a good average!?
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britmod - I've already pointed this out (above), but I'll say it again The piece was written as a blog, it is not supposed to be a balanced article weighing up the merits of the BDO or PDC. It is merely a reflection of my experiences of one day at the Lakeside. Personally, I couldn't give a monkey's which one everyone thinks is the best - I can see the merits of both, with the BDO seemingly attracting a more hardcore darts crowd and the PDC a more general audience with more razzmattazz. Personally, being someone who's not a darts fanatic, I prefer the PDC, although there's no getting away from the fact that loads people turn up there primarily for the booze-up. However, if Martin Adams tells me he doesn't like the PDC, that's his prerogative. I would also add that it's a bit rich accusing the BBC of bitterness when we covered every day of the PDC event while Sky don't even acknowledge the BDO exists.
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#155
"Bigger crowd = Better atmosphere"
not at all ! ever been to the Crucible in Snooker? small but great venue. Wimbledon Centre Court is not the biggest but its fantastic.
Music, Id prefer to see a band I like at a smaller venue than Wembley Arena with my plastic beer.
Whats better a big room full of Sky duped chavs - or a smaller room full of true darting chavs?
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oh and tht last comment wasnt average watching, its just a fact used to highlight how mediokre the BDO is because surely the only way to show the true mediocracy of the BDO is through average. And when you do you call people average watchers.
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yeh im sure the atmosphere in the crucible is eletric. Not being able to speak.
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It is electric. And its not through quantity of people that makes it so. Sometimes small is beautiful as they say. Whether that extends to darts venues.....
As I said the main thing I think the PDC has that means anything is Taylor.. if he was to go back.....
Im biased as I wont pay for Sky , I just liked sport when it was terrestial and democratic - and to me Darts with its pub roots should be the most democratic and normal man sport of all and on terrestial with 1 world title. But it isnt. Its a shame. Progress?
Boxing went the same way with its world titles.
Yes there are better averages and more money in PDC but people dont get to see it now in the communal way the nation used to. I blame the Sky approach. But hey its the modern world.
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i agree, i think it should just have one world championship althought im not sure taylor leaving would cause the PDC to crumble. Anway enough on this subject. im off
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"Sky duped chavs or true darting chavs"
Now there's a blog just waiting to kick off.
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Thats the key of the issue for me. What Sky has done to Sport.
The BDO v PDC is this issue in microcosm. Public Tradition v Money & hype.
Darts in the 70s and 80s, was the normal guys sport. Up and down the country people used to tune in en-masse
to watch these heroes. Players like Eric, Jockey etc were true accessible true heroes on the street, mass tabloid public heroes.
Eric v Lowe was a huge tv event etc. I loved sport when it was like that. Captures the public imagination and therfore means more. Like McEnroe v Borg or Euro 96 etc.
Sky has marginalised this, and yes whilst the standard is great in the PDC and looks great on tv to those that see it and the rewards in the back pocket to these millionaires are big too I think something important has been lost.
Something in the glory, something in the public love lost.
So I prefer the BDO still because it reminds me of when darts was at its greatest and of the people. But from both sides it is diluted now.
Same applies to the Ryder Cup. There were Ryder Cup heroes and public emotional attachment to these European stars and the team was really high in the 80s and 90s.
Then it moved to Sky and whilst there have still been some great moments, something special, that sense of public democracy and sharing was lost in it.
The Olympics 2008 was such a hit because it via the BBC democratised sport again. People like Chris Hoy true public heroes because of this.
Anyway you will be pleased to know Im done on this topic too.
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oh my god, can people stop saying "it would be interesting to see if Taylor went back to BDO!!"
That will never happen.
COMPETITION
MONEY
PUSHING BOUNDRIES
ATMOSPHERE
and many more reasons Taylor, Barney, King etc etc won't go back. Sky and the PDC are making darts a sport, where the players are top professionals, who practice practice practice.
Has anyone seen the BDO this year.
The standard, and that is what matters, is very very poor.
In all sports you want to watch the best.
Also people seem to want the old days back. Well its 2009, not 1980. Sports need to progress, changes made. Darts is still, with other sports, small.
The PDC and sky are changing this.
The BDO brought us Darts, and we won't forget, but that is history. They refused to move forward, and will die more and more over the years.
Thanks BDO for the past but PDC is and has been the future a while now.
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sorry i havent gone
#168
COMPETITION Taylor wins all the time!
MONEY Great, money, whoopee
PUSHING BOUNDRIES how? girls walking on. Taylors average?
ATMOSPHERE chavvy, cheap mass produced, boxing non darts atmos
WHAT ABOUT?
DEMOCRACY
FUN
POPULARITY
STAYING TRUE TO THE ROOTS OF THE SPORT
ACCESSIBILITY
TRUE HEROES OF THE STREET
I used to love going to watch darts with my Grandad in his front room, the big matches, the big finals. He wouldnt watch it now , cant afford the subscription. Glad you thinks thats progress.
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The standard is poor, we all agree on that (I haven't played for a while but I used to be decent and am quite confident I could hold my own if you gave me six months to practice), but my main problem with the BDO world championships is just how depressing it looks. It's cheap, old fashioned and grim. You can almost smell the place through the tv. I know Sky go a bit over the top with the razzmatazz oocasionally, but at least they make it look like a sport.
And the Ray Stubbs and Bobby George bits are some of the worst telly you'll ever see. Wearing a lot of gold doesn't make you 'zany' or interesting unfortunately - George is essentially a very dull, and stupid, man, who shouldn't be allowed on television.
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cs15hammer - couldn't put it any better. Solid effort.
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Ben the reason Sky don't acknowledge the BDO tournament is they simply cannot agree that this is a World Championship anymore when it consists of club and pub players.
As for the BBC, they cover the PDC as they know how big it is.
As with many sports, they cover them but as with cricket, LIVE Football, Boxing, Rugby and many others they can olny cove ron the web as they lost the TV rights
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Yes, bit one sided this for my taste, though I'm normally a big fan, honest Mrs Dirs!
My problem with BDO, is this Anderson fella that always gets knocked out early at Lakeside.
He's sposed to be top player but he told Ray today that he just couldn't practise for 8more than a few hours a day.Bobby George, then piped up that to be really good you have to sacrifice everything and practice 8 hourse a day. I'm sure lots of us would quite happy for a job only 8 hours a day, and with no commute!
You'd get better professional in PDC I'm sure.
But I still enjoy watching BDO, even if only as I dont have Sky.
Sport yes, olympics no. Archery netiher for that matter.
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DANINPBORO - Not sure about that, Sky basically have a policy of glossing over or ignoring completely anything they don't broadcast live. Boxing is a great example of this. When Hatton went over to Setanta for a few fights, Sky acted as if he barely existed. When he went back, all of a sudden he was the best thing since sliced bread again. The BBC has never lost the PDC rights because it never had them in the first place. As for not having the rights to other sports, that's just economics I'm afraid, although I would point out that BBC radio covers cricket, football, boxing and rugby pretty exhaustively, whether Sky are broadcasting the event live or not.
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I am not a big darts follower but when the BDO championship at Lakeside starts on BBC once every year, I do follow it.
However the players I really follow and entertain me are all gone to PDC.
Watched the Sky coverage and am watching the BBC BDO games.
Maybe its the commentary or the level of play but BDO does not entertain me as in the past.
I have no idea who most of those players are, I actually fell asleep watching them.
Poor quality really, and the people sitting around the dart board is not the reason I watch darts.
yes Sky glam up the PDC stuff but I think overall they really are better period.
Barney was probably the top player at BDO and one of the guys I follow. He is still great but defintely not top dog at PDC.
Just shows you its like Premier League vs Championship. I let you make up your mind which one PDC /BDO s
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You are wrong, Westdrop. Klaasen did come back to defend his title and got eliminated in the 1st round the following year.
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Fair point about Sky ignoring sports they don't cover, although I would say that's their perogative, if you don't like it, don't pay the subscription.
The difference is that we all have to pay for the BBC through a poll tax of sorts, and I think there would be a huge backlash if the BBC started bidding the sort of money SKY do for sports coverage.
So unfortunately, if you want to see the highest level of sport (most of them), SKY is the only option, hype and all.
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The BDO is clearly better than the PDC in terms of quality and entertainment.
The only reason some players, and not necessarily the best ones, move to the PDC is because they cannot handle the pressure of the Lakeside tournament.
If we take the battle of the world champions at the grand slam this year the BDO world champ, webster, won it no problem and he hadn't played much this year because he was busy doing a plumbing course.
The main reason Martin Adams hasn't moved is because Sky won't let him as he will expose the PDC for the complete con it is oh and because he is allergic to lasers which seem to feature heavily during PDC player entrances.
Phil Taylor is a decent player but stick him in the Lakeside and he would probably not get past the first round.
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I have to agree with #178. The natural entertainment levels of the BDO are clearly higher and no-where is this more evident than in the players? walk-ons.
What true darts fan doesn?t feel a buzz of excitement when The Count is announced and you hear the opening bars of his strangely inappropriate banging gabba theme, ?Be On Your Way!?? What Hankey may lack in terms of the much lauded skill-levels in the PDC, he makes up for with a fierce stare, a cape and a stack of novelty plastic bats. Show me a PDC player who has this level of pre-match pantomime passion?
Correct me if I?m wrong, but I?ve never seen Phil Taylor firing electrical charges from his fingers, which surely would be the logical walk-on. And how obvious is his choice of theme music? Most of the so-called Titans of Tungsten in the PDC stroll on to some feeble pop number, wearing an expression that tells me they earn so much money just by turning up that they couldn?t care whether anyone in the crowd is entertained or not.
I love to see high technical standards on the oche, but the tone of the evening for a fan is set by the level of excitement generated during the walk-on. I love to see 180s as much as the next arrows man, but I also want to watch fat men in their sixties strolling on stage in comedy outfits.
While pundits such as Giles Smith may regard ?One Dart? Manley as the walk-on champion (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/giles_smith/article5399978.ece) he has nothing on Hankey.
The best PDC walk-on, in my opinion, is Steve Hines, but how many people in the crowd are lucky enough to catch one of his stale mini-muffins?
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79: please explain how it isn't remotely true that every PDC player is an ex BDO player.
There is no grass roots in the PDC and all those that now play in the PDC started with the BDO. They may not have been in the BDO world championships but they are all definitely ex BDO players.
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#178. Congratulations on the most deluded post I think I've ever seen. Extraordinary stuff. Unless it's a wind-up of course.
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#181
Sorry am I mistaken then, Mark Webster didn't beat the PDC world champ at the grand slam a couple of months ago then.
And he hasn't been doing a plumbing course for most of the year whilst being world champion to let the PDC players catch up to his standard although they failed miserably.
The bit about Adams being allergic to lasers, granted may be something of a mistruth. He's actually allergic to poor averages which is why he's never moved to the PDC.
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The dilusion was merely concerned with your assertion that the quality is higher in the BDO. I could not care less about the reason for his absence, but Barney made even more for losing in the final of one competition than even a plumber can expect to make in a year.
Webster did indeed beat the then PDC world champion. Part had a very lucky draw in a competition that saw all the usual suspects have a poor tournament. He was beaten in the first round this year. Remind me who won the tournament.
One win does not prove quality. Tiny Numancia beat Barcelona this season. Derby beat Man Utd last night. By your rather poor logic, that makes Numancia and Derby the better teams.
Your comments about Adams allergies are pathetic to be fair. It had been a good debate up till then.
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ROBINS 23 HAS LOST HIS MARBLES!! TAYLOR WOULD HAVE BEATEN ANY DART PLAYER PAST OR PRESENT IN THAT WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP FINAL. TO SAY HE WOULDN'T GET PAST THE FIRST ROUND AT THE BDO IS LAUGHABLE, THE ONLY REASON HE WOULDN'T WIN THE TOURNAMENT IS IF HE FELL ASLEEP OF BOREDOM ON THE OCHE.
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#174
I completely agree with Ben.
For anyone to say Sky is more balanced than the Beeb in coverage is a joke.
I get Sky Sports News on freeview, and its 'news' agenda is completely shaped by Sky Sports events.
If a 6 nations rugby match is on the Beeb or the Olympics for example, or boxing on ITV, it is relegated to a footnote by Sky Sports News beneath Sky Sports related Premier League Football transfer speculation or latest 'sack the manager' fable.
Sky is a completely self-absored, highly commercial money driven offfering. It does not care about the accessibility and democracy of sport for the normal people -
something that should be key to the lifeblood of an everyman sport like darts. I dont care if the averages are better.
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People say the PDC is so great because the averages are 5 points or whatever higher.
The players are more professional. They practice harder.
What people forget is that yes whilst Phil Taylor and Barry Hearn have fatter wallets because of the Phil Darts Corporation - what they have done is taken away the democratisation and public man on the street accessibility love and affinity for the sport which I think is key to an everyman sport like darts - they have taken the cash for themselves so a minority die hards with the resources to spend out for Sky subscriptions can pay their annual fees to them so they can swoon about better averages and all feel good about themselves.
If Taylor wins with an amazing high average, it is worth a watch, but I'd prefer to see a classic contest not a walkover. Taylor too often wins the PDC, and it has taken a guy who was BDO for 15 years, Barney, to give him any sort of regular World Champ challenges and real consistent threat. Watching Taylor win again and again can be a bit dull whatever the average. For many years the PDC players seemed so accepting and incapable of challenging Taylor due to constantly losing to him I am not sure that made any sort of superior WC COMPETITION either.
People too often compare the BDO against Taylor.
I'd prefer to sacrifice a few points in the average, and Im personally not too concerned how fat Taylor's and Hearn's wallets are, to get darts back to when it was best and felt like darts, touching the living rooms of the nation via terrestial tv like it once did. It mattered then.
PDC people say that's an archiac view, and PDC is progress, sorry but I don't agree with the Sky approach to sport and that every sport should be Sky-ised and lost from the people of the nation to them.
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Ok scrap the Adams allergy references lets get some proper debate action full of fact and counter argument.
Webster is not the only one to beat a PDC world champ. There are other tournaments outside the grand slam where both BDO and PDC players play each other in Holland and Germany mostly. PDC players are regularly beaten.
Adams, Anderson and Fitton have all had good wins over PDC players in particular Taylor in recent times. He is not as dominant as the pretty picture sky paints suggests mainly because it is in tournaments not covered by them he loses in.
If we take it to an entertainment level I think the comments in #179 are pretty spot on. The PDC is just full of drunken yobs whistling at players on stage to put them off. Why else does Merv King wear ear plugs? And now look at him since he started doing that.
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The BDO championship is possibly the best sporting event on telly right now, and being on the BBC is accessible to everyone who has TV... unlike the PDC which you need an expensive subscription from Sky to view. While the PDC may generate more income for it's players, is that what darts is all about? Surely it's about being the best at what you do regardless of the income. Good luck to all the show boats and pretenders at the PDC who think thay have a chance while Phil Taylor or Barney are still chucking. I'm sticking with the BDO and the BBC - a match made in heaven. LET'S. PLAY. DARTS
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Rambon wrote "Does the bloke wearing a horse's head all week do that all week, or is it
to get on the tele?"
I think the issue is not whether he wears the horse's head to get on tele, but the level
of viewer entertainment provided by some punter in a comedy animal outfit. Wolfie's
point about the Ally Pally crowd was obviously a generalisation, but it is true they
seem more concerned by how much abuse they can hurl at the so-called villains than being
part of the larger tradition of darts as a large-scale televised fancy-dress party.
I doubt the horse-head fella wears the equine outfit outside the Lakeside, but then do
you think Hankey wears his cape when he pops to the corner shop for a pack of smokes? Do
you think Wolfie runs around on Bodmin Moor howling at the full moon on his evening off?
Does Whitlock practice magic? Of course not, but they are all part of a long-standing
event where fantasy is mixed with high-quality darts and played out to a soundtrack of
nonsensical Cockney or Geordie commentary. This is the 'sports entertainment' Wolfie was
talking about.
For my money, the PDC is all about the money and booze. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with players choosing to defect if they can earn more. Stompe's got a family to feed as much as the next man, so he's rightly entitled to seek higher earnings if he so chooses. What I think Adams was trying to say, was that the typical PDC punter is little more than a booze-hound with no interest in the darts action or the dressing up.
Ironically, Wolfie pretty much contradicts himself later in the Blog when he says "You can take darts out of the pub, but you can't take the pub out of darts."
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Robins23 - you are right that BDO players have beaten some top PDC players over the past 2 years.
However, then look at how many PDC players have beaten BDO players.
BDO win no more than 1 in 6 matches against PDC players based on the top 16 from each tournament playing each other.
That is why when the BDO win it makes the news - it is not that common.
As for Taylor not making it past round 1 of the Lakeside. You could blindfold him and he'd still beat those playing this week.
Never have I seen so many players miss a treble and score 23, 41, 45, 43 etc on so many occasions.
The BDO has it's place as an amateur tournament but the professionals are over in the PDC.
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I tend to agree with most posts that purely on the level of darting ability Taylor is noticeably superior to everyone else, and I will admit he is my favourite player. However this year's final against Barney was pretty low on entertainment and not really a contest. Now if Taylor did start wearing an eye-patch he'd raise the game to the next level.
As for mis-firing BDO players, I fail to see how that makes the BDO less entertaining. I love it when top players bottle it and score 23, 41 or lower. Seeing a so-called pro score 3 is hilarious... talking of which, does anyone know of any darts bloopers dvds out there?
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Daninpboro probably dressed in a clowns outfit juggling next to maccy d's at the entrance to queensgate.
Blindfolded indeed, no need to get silly now this is a serious debate.
Did you read what I said previously, when BDO players beat PDC ones it doesn't get in the news because it is not in Sky tournaments and Sky want to maintain the illusion that Phil Taylor is unbeatable, walks on water and is immortal.
If the PDC is sooo professional then how come Ben sheperd or whatever his name was got to the semi's last year. Done well this year hasn't he !!
I suggest you get to Deeping boooor and check out the "amateur" county comps there. The PDC players wouldn't stand a chance. They are too busy dodging lasers and suffocating from the amount of dry ice pumped into their lungs everytime they walk (or should I say float) through a door.
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robbins 178
Please do not write this type of thing on the website. It is the same as you calling us all a bunch of retards and very insulting! What have we done to make you treat us this way?
Anyway I have been wondering what are Martin adams reasons for staying with the BDO? Does anyone know. Im not talking about the real reasons obviously (ie he is a bottle job) but what are the reasons he gives???
Also when a player goes for the bull and hits outside of the 25 why does the commentator david croft say "unlucky". Isnt it a terrible shot???
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ollycrofy, robins has one b in it by the way......
Wait a minute while I reach for my handbag, there it is.................ooooooooooooooh!
Lets go through your informative argument. First sentence, the whole point is that people can share opinions on here and that happens to be mine, if you don't agree then fair enough, offer up a suitable argument for me to take on board that may change my opinion.
Second sentence, you said it not me so I guess that is your opinion and I'm sure everyone else contributing would be appalled at what you are saying about them.
Second paragraph: Adams is the embodiment of the BDO, he is totally opposed to the PDC and what it stands for. He believes in something called loyalty which is obviously something you know very little about after slagging off your fellow contributers like that.
The BDO is the lifeblood of darts while the PDC is the parasite trying to suck the life from it but failing.
And finally if a player is going for bull and misses it's not lucky is it.
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Re #193, it's a shame your argument boils down to calling the Wolfman 'a bottle job', without stating the reason you assume are obvious. What are these reasons, because I ain't seeing them?
Are you talking about the same Adams who had such little bottle he stepped up like a man to assume the England captaincy when the original defectors went off in pirsuit of more lucre?
Or do you perhaps mean the Adams who has so little bottle he mixes it with players of the calibre of Anderson, Fitton and Webster on a regular basis?
It can't be either of those, so I can only conclude you mean Tony Adams, the recovering alcoholic Portsmouth Manager who may formerly have been known to some as 'bottle job' for his drinking antics.
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I agree that Martin Adams is a good player and must have some bottle for being the England captain and taking all the pressure that that job brings, but ultimately, will he ever be called great if he doesn't mix it with the 2 best players in the world (taylor and barney)?
I agree that he does well consistently in the bdo but its the pdc were the absoulote best is so maybe he should swallow his pride and face the challenge?
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steve-o86 - You make a fair point, and as I stated earlier, I do believe Taylor would pummel anyone in the BDO, including Adams.
To expand on my response to #193, for any player good enough to be in a position where they could choose between the BDO and the PDC, the choice cannot be black and white, and certainly doesn't just boil down to the issue of how much bottle you've got.
As you correctly say, certain facts from Adams career history (such as his England captaincy) show him to have plenty of bottle, while others have shown him to have spectacular lack of bottle at key times (I'm referring to some of his BDO defeats when having been cruising to victory).
However, when he considers possibly jumping ship to the PDC surely he's weighing up things like the increased frequency of mandatory appearances he'd have to make, and how that might affect his family life. Maybe he's thinking he's a well known and respected figure at the Lakeside, whereas he'd probably just be another statistic on the list of Taylor victims in the PDC.
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It is great to see so much passion around this subject. For my two penneth worth I must say that the PDC does seem to be of higher "standard" for what it's worth, but that is more than offset by the better atmosphere, banter, sportsmanship and fun of the BDO.
I mean, yes obviously the BDO players take their arrows seriously, but no so seriously they take mentors around with them, get personal trainers and stay off the beer. This is darts for god's sake!
I imagine a few of the people reading this also watch snooker. Imagine if you took the characters and local boys turned good out of snooker and replaced them with highly toned, seriously minded athletes, what would become of the game then? Would you want any of them to win? Would you not be wishing that Jimmy White would come back and have another go at hitting a 147 with a full table cross double? Or that Ronnie would turn up, completely fired up, hit 3 centuries and then spit his dummy out of the pram? Or that Peter Ebdon would release another hit record...
For once we, the viewing public are in a position to change things for the better, then we could see how the PDC "athletes" mix it with the characters of the BDO. Just don't subscribe for a year.
By the way, Robins, my half brother is alergic to lasers, so I'd appreciate a little more sensitivity on the subject.
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Re #198 - this is what Adams was talking about when he mentioned the 'entertainment factor'. Taylor is so good he's almost robotic and while he does have more charisma than say Hendry (to use your snooker analogy) he still has a slightly monotonous consistency.
Contrast this with the wonderfully weird Ted Hankey who went from being the imperious world champion to losing the plot and throwing his darts like a baby having a tantrum, providing excellent television in the process, and you can see why the free-to-view BDO is better viewing value.
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194
ROBINS 23 WITH ONE B...
My point about going for the bull and not even hitting the 25 is not that it is lucky, rather it is an awful shot and should thus be called so ... not "unlucky" Do you disagree?
Secondly your opinion about phil taylor not getting past the first round at the lakeside is totally idiotic and shows you know absolutely nothing about darts. With an average of 110 how would he fail to get through first round of lakeside where the average is mid to low 80's?????????????????????????????????????????????????????. I could say that in my opinion my local pub team are better than Man utd...but if i did say that i would be a plonker wouldn't I?
to describe the PDC as a parasite is a fallacy!!! The PDC HAS MADE DARTS FASHIONABLE AND POPULAR AGAIN. You probably have no knowledge of the history of darts, but before the split the sport was dying a death and was dangering on becoming a fringe sport. It was only the advent of the wdc that has lead to darts becoming increasingly popular, as is evinced by the massive crowds at the darts premier league.
The BDO is an archaic, antiquated organisation that is seriously impeding the great sport of darts gaining widespread public recognition and credit. The PDC is where the top players ply their trade and where the most superior arrows are thrown (impossible to ignore the averages). It is wholly disparaging and denegrating for the BDO to describe the lakeside event as a world championship.
In response to red furious:
Why is taking on the captaincy of england an achievement, none of the worlds best darts players compete against him.
Robins: Do you fancy a game of tennis? It might be a struggle for you because I am actually better than roger federer!
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Apologies showmesomeofit, please understand I'm not one to pray on the disabilities of others, unlike ollycrofy up there.
I'm sure yourself and your half brother understand I mean no offence to him and other laserlergics like him. His name wouldn't happen to be Ray would it, that would be kind of ironic. Has he ever been to laser quest, that would bring a whole new deadly dimension to it, awesome.
Now back to the discussion, Jimmy White would be awful in the PDC he's a snooker player and a hair transplantee (allegedly), although saying that.............
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Ollycrofy
Good points well made, but if you want a game of tennis I'll take you on. I am in fact Martina Navratilova.
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201 Robins
Please please please tell me why in your opinion phil taylor would not make it through second round of the lakeside?
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198: showmw some ofit.
you make good points but please remember jimmy white and ronnie o sullivan are two of the most gifted players to ever lift a cue
therefore it is wrong to indicate that they in some way represent the CHARACTERS OF THE BDO. They would be PDC all the way
P.S IN MY OPNION Bobby george is more intelligent than albert einstein. Please dont say this is a stupid comment that is my hones opinion and i am entitled to it.
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Right, just before I sign off for an hour (I have to go and catch a pigeon to pluck for tea) I shall respond to ollycrofy who see's himself as a long haired swiss american who is past his best at hitting a ball over a let with a bat(a strange comparison but I suppose I can sort of see where he is coming from).
If there was no BDO then there would be no PDC as all of their players come from there. The BDO has the structure to be self sufficient whereas the PDC relies on that structure to produce players to the standard they require. They don't put any money into the grass roots of the game hence they are parasites.
As for the history of darts, I was there I know of it. Unlike yourself where your knowledge probably comes from an entirely bias PDC history of darts page, well done for further closing your mind to other possibilities, further evidence of the PDC conspiracy to erase the BDO from existence.
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Oh and I said he would not make it through the first round.
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205.
Robins:
good to see your logging off. I notice how you have failed to answer my question regarding phil taylor. I think that conclusively proves you were talking utter rubbish.
i attended my first BDO EVENT I 1988 when banderson won it, and used to go every year until 2001 and have more or less grown up with the BDO. However i have a moderate IQ and can therefore see that the PDC is miles ahead in every respect, the one exception being the excellent coverage offrered by the BBC!!! ( THATS CALLED A SARCASTIC COMMENT)
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"Personally for me if I am going to watch Live Darts I want to go and see the blokes i see on TV every week in the Premier League - The Barneys, Taylors, Manleys, Mardles etc - watching a bunch of fat old blokes chucking 80 averages is not the way forward."
As opposed to a bunch of fit young studs in the PDC?
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I am absolutely certain that the BDO will outlast the PDC. The filthy lucre in Sky's money-pouch will eventually dry up on darts leaving the big-earning professionals having to take second jobs to keep their 4x4s running - then they'll either retire or return home to the BDO roost.
ollycrofy and Robins23: Can I play the winner?
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thom thom tiger you may certainly play the winner but apparently i am past it at tennis ( us open must have been a fluke)
I do understand your points about the money, but what i would say is that the money has caused players to take it more seriously, practice harder and as a result achieve a better standard.
All TRUE sports fans want to see sport being performed at the highest level possible, and this is what has happened due to sky sports involvement, and money is crucial to this. It may not be nice to think like that but money does make the world go round!
Thom thom tiger- My doubles partner will be barry hearn is this ok?
Does anyone agree with Robins post that Taylor would not cut it in the bdo tournament?
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If you've got Hearn then I've got to have 'The Adonis'
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BEATON WAS THE NUTS! SHAME HE HAS LOST HIS FORM BECAUSE I THOUGHT HE COULD DO REALLY WELL
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Where are you Steve Beaton?!?!? Now he represented everything that makes the BDO great still.
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#209 ThomThom , I agree.
It strikes me that the PDC is a total made for tv Circus - there is little beneath. Yes it has the best players accepted. And the best average. If Taylor left it would just evaporate. The darts players are tv stars and the crowd is renta crowd.
The BDO is a proper real world darts event that is covered also by TV. The BDO event populated from an actual infrastructure and playing pyramid. If TV was not there it would continue to have the tournaments. The money is a factor for the players but it is part of their darting life. The darts players are darts players. The crowd have are a darts crowd.
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back once again. Lovely pigeon roulade that. Right you bunch of flap jacks. The reason i don't think taylor would get past the first round nowadays is because the lakeside would bring him back down to darts reality rather than the pathetic bow down and worship the great one circus the pdc. Right i am off to watch some proper darts. Oh and for coverage you cant beat the beeb, every minute possible to see via the red button. Unless your one of the three people that are waiting until the last minute of the analogue signal before getting a digi box.
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Just to say Martin Adams comments are spitefull. I wonder why he hates the PDC so much considering he did actually play in PDC tournaments including reaching the 2001 World Matchplay semi-final where he lost to guess who, Phil Taylor.
Also, Darts is a sport, it takes great practice to get as good as the Barnevelds and the Taylors and since the removal of drinking and smoking on stage, it has the appearence of a sport and if human steeplechase is at the olympics then why not darts?
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The BDO has some very good players but the PDC has much more depth and is the best organisation.
I have been a darts fan for about 12 years. The PDC is what made me a darts fan. When I was younger I wouldnt bother watching BDO matches.
Now Wolfie complains about the PDC crowds. Yes they are load but you ask Billy Davies from USA if he didnt love the crowd chanting his name when he beat John Part. You ask Co Stompe if he doesnt love the fans singing "play on stompe, stompe play on" Co Stompe has made more money since he joined PDC then he did in his whole BDO career.
The atmosphere is brilliant and the the PDC have made darts popular again. They have made it a TV sport that casual fans will go crazy for. How can anyone not think this is good. Where do you think all this prize money is coming from. You need to sell tickets people.
The PDC final saw TV numbers peaked at 1.1 million with an average of 809,000. That is brilliant for a pay tv channel.
I remember seeing a BDO event on setanta few months ago and there was about 40 people in the crowd. It looked pathetic!
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Robins23 - from your comments you are clearly at school as you are so immature.
Taylor would wipe the floor with the BDO and you know it.
You seem to have an anti Taylor stance, which I imagine means you like him but want to be different.
Taylor has revolutionised Darts and will do so for 2 more years.
As for Sky, they cover their own stuff, why cover anything else, they have enough.
I rarely see Darts on the BBC bar the Masters and World Champs. So your comment of not covering PDC losing to BDO goes for everyone.
Now maybe you can get back to your little Taylor shrine as it is almost past your bedtime for a school night
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Come on, I know the comment about how Taylor would fail in a tournament where the number 1 seed averages a one dart average of 29.83 is just stupid but your comment about the Taylor shrine is also quite stupid.
How does that work, just because you don't like a player and you make ridiculous comments about them doesn't mean you actually like the player, it just means you hate the player so much, you aren't willing to recognise how good he is.
Also, how would the Lakeside get to Taylor? He's played in front of 7,000+, I somehow think he could handle the Lakeside again.
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Actually the love and hate thing comes in. He hates him so much he actually likes him but puts up a front to try to be funny and different and fails.
Taylor would be asleep playing in front of 700 fans. He may think it was like a library compared to the PDC.
At least the PDC try to entertain. I wonder what the budget is for the BDO champs compared to the PDC?
I imagine a tenth at best, with the wak on girls and entertainment etc.
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Yeah, I don't see what Robbins is going on about.
The BBC don't give the BDO the respect that Sky gives the PDC. The darts is barely advertised and is shoved mostly all of the time on the red button, something that has only happened to the PDC darts once. Sky advertises the PDC darts and shows all the matches in full length.
Its not suprising that the PDC has more money, more tournaments, bigger budget etc. because it has the better players, simple as that. However, I do worry that once Taylor goes, the PDC might find themselves in trouble.
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221 comments for a darts blog - that's almost as many people commented on Kevin Pietersen's resignation yesterday! Extraordinary...
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Personally my favourite darts player is Barney. Don't really like Phil taylor.
Yes I know he is not as good as Taylor but everybody has there own team/player to support no matter if he is champion or not.
When Barney was at BDO, wasn't he pretty much top seed there most year, now and again seeded number 2.
I know seeding means nothing to winning it but generally it means Barney was practically the best player on the BDO circuit to be seeded 1 so many times and winning it multi-times too.
If I remember clearly when Barney was at BDO, Adams never won any World Title.
Vs taylor, he seems to lose to him more than he beats Taylor.
Suggesting Taylor is the best and I am assuming has a great chance of winning BDO if he ever competes in it.
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Re comment #200 by Olycrofy,
My argument was not intended to show that Adam's stepping up to take over the England captaincy was in itself a darting achievement worthy of recognition, but that it was something that showed clearly the man has has bottle.
It was also in response to one of your earlier comments, backed up by no valid argument at all, that Wolfie is a bottle-job. It was similar to Adrian Durham labelling Jamie Carragher a bottle job, solely on the premise that he wasn't man enough to play international football. You can't just drop an unjustified comment in the beeb-blog mixer and expect no kind of comeback. Carragher may have had opportunities to move to a bigger club, for more cash and a celebrity lifestyle, but because he didn't take them and chose to remain loyal to his roots he has shown considerable bottle.
If you're saying simply that Adams knows he'll never beat Phil Taylor then you're probably right, given Taylors form of the last 12 months. However, go back a couple of years and Adams might've fancied his chances against the Power when the great man was in his slump. At this point in time, what other player in the PDC remotely fancies himself to beat Taylor? Name me one! They surely all know he'd beat them if he plays to his best. In this respect, they are no different from the likes of Martin Adams, so explain to us how you think they have more bottle than the BDO players?
Would you call Adams a bottle-merchant to his face? If so, I suspect he'd tear you limb from limb, with canine ferocity.
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Re: comment #222, Ben, this debate has been excellent and has proven how passionate people are for the arrows.
It is however slightly ironic that so many of the people here are vehemently critical of the BBC's coverage of darts, yet they have no problem using the BBC's web site. Doesn't SKY on-line have a darts blog where they'd feel more at home slating the BBC?
I think the 'red-button' coverage of darts on the Beeb is superb. No innane Geordie waffle between matches, no commercials, just pure arrows action.
I can't wait for tonight's games: two quality quarters with the awesome prospect of Hankey v Adams in the semi.
But as last night's matches showed (where Anderson was beaten by O'Shea), the BDO is much tighter than the PDC so who knows what will happen tonight.
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It would be a long shot but Id give a BDO player more hope of beating Taylor at the moment than the PDC one, if for example there was anothe Grand Slam of Darts events. Barney aside, and maybe even Barney, many of the PDC players seem to have got so used to losing against Taylor they just dont compete and have any belief. This was esepcially true before Taylor's slump in 2007-8. For years Taylor walked the PDC and it was not a very exciting open competition.
PDC fans will say at this point well the other PDC players get better averages so if they cant beat Taylor the BDO ones wont.
Winning darts isnt purely about average. In the game last night Anderson was way ahead on O'Shea on average but O'Shea was finishing better and timing the important darts well. He kept stealing the important legs. Ok maybe Taylor just wouldnt give him any sniff at all. But I do think the BDO players, despite bit lower averages than the PDC one, would go into matches with Taylor with more fire and belief, having not been tonked for years, and give it a good go.
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cs15hammer (#226) - I agree entirely.
Many people in this thread have used Co Stompe's recent defection to the PDC and his subsequent increase in earnings as grounds to claim the PDC players are technically superior to those of the BDO.
Where were these people when the Matchstick played in the BDO? Whilst he was immensely popular, he never won it. If I remember correctly his best tournament was when he made the semis of the world championship way back in 2000 when he was mullered 5-2 by Ronnie Baxter.
When he joined the PDC he wasn?t even ranked in their top 200 players in the world. He has obviously now worked his way up the rankings, which shows that a player who could not consistently challenge the likes of Hankey, Adams, Webster, Anderson, Fitton, Whitlock, Waites etc. was still capable of beating Phil Taylor in the final of the PDC German Darts Championship.
So if Stompe can beat Taylor, it surely follows that many of the BDO regulars who were better than Stompe would have a good shot at challenging him.
I still think Taylor would win against anyone from either organisation, unless he has an off day, but this doesn't mean the whole PDC set-up is better than the BDO.
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re comment 224 by red furious
you make some good points re loyalty in sport, one that springs to mind is bobby moore stying at west ham for so long, and i do think that is an admirable quality.
however, in martin adams case i simply dont believe this is the case. He did not choose to remain loyal to the lakeside championship when the split happened because he first played in it 1994 after the split? How is he remaining loyal to something that he never even played in before? It makes no sense! What happened was he knew he was not good enough to play before hand and once all the top boys moved over to the wdc he jumped at the opportunity to jump in, it is nothing more than pure unabashed opportunism.
I say he is a bottle job because he does not have the temerity to go and play with the best in the world, it is because of pepole like him that darts does not progress forward. Fair enough if the BDO runs the grass roots, but once players get to a certain standard they should move to the PDC. To label the lakeside tornamanet as a "world championship" is just plain fatuous!
to say that Adams is loyal to the bdo is insulting! he has palyed at pdc events!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he knows he can not hack it full time and is thus scared.
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re robins 215
one of the most stupid comments i have ever read in my whole life.
But in all fairness to you taylor probably would not get past the bdo first round. I mean its not as if he has ever done well in it when a ll the top players used to play in it, his record was awful wasnt it..... its not as if he won it twice with the highest ever average of all time in the tornament.
also the darts coverage offered by the bbc is tremendous, the amount of analysis they offer is unsurpassed and bobby george is so wise and insightful and witty. Down with sky and long live the BDO.
I bet you would prefer butlins to maldives as well?
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'I bet you would prefer butlins to maldives as well?"
Yes if it was more true to the people of the nation and darting world and inclusive and enjoyable. Id far prefer to see a vibrant , democratic darting public comeptition and the nation involved and gripped with the world title on the beeb (call it butlins if you like) - than a circus of exclusive professionals hamming up their averages and wallets on exclusive Sky (the maldives) which is sports equivalent of the gated community.
Darts at its best was a people sport.
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Howdo y'all,
Just thought I would chip in with a few comments while I have a free period (see comment #218).
Wolfie playing in PDC tournaments - You will find that these are not specifically PDC tournaments as contractually Wolfie cannot play in them. They will be open tournaments where players from both PDC and BDO can enter. His loyalty to the BDO is displayed by his refusal to take part in the grand slam event due to it clashing with the BDO matchplay tournament where others decided to go to the slam instead.
Phil Taylor - I don't have a one man hate campaign against Phil Taylor, my point is that Sky paint him to be some darts machine that wins EVERYTHING when this is plainly not the case. Yes he may win a majority of the tournaments Sky choose to air but there are more tournaments than the Premier league, world matchplay and world champs every year.
I respect what he's done for the game, and accept that he is possibly one of the best players ever but he is currently playing darts in his own little Sky conceptualised darts world which just isn't real anymore. Therefore my comments about him going out in the first round of the BDO champs were merely an exaggeration of the fact he would struggle against many of the BDO players which have not been brow beaten into thinking they have lost before they even throw a dart.
Right double history now boooo, has anyone seen my tamagochi.
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230.
how come more people attend live pdc events than bdo events then if the BDO more popular and in touch with the nation???
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re: #228,
I didn't say that Adams was remaining loyal to the BDO. If you read my comment again, you'll see that I said I referred to Adam's decision to take the England captaincy as a sign that he has some degree of bottle. I then likened your unfounded dismissal of him as a bottler to Adrian Durham's flippant dismissal of the Carra-man as a bottler, at which point I mentioned Carragher's loyalty.
I will accept that Adams brief flirtation with the PDC may show he is not 'loyal' to the BDO, but the fact he returned does not in itself make him less of a man. If anything, that stint of playing in front of the PDC crowds makes him ideally placed to make the kind of comments he did in Ben's original blog that started much of the arguments here. He has experience of the vitriolic abuse hurled out by the lager-louts at Ally Pally and has decided he can do without it, even if it does pay more.
I also agree with many people here that Taylor would probably beat Adams most times out, but you seem to have consistenty implyed there is some huge gulf between all the other PDC players and all the BDO players. When Adams played in the News of the World Championship in 1997, he lost to Talyor in the semis, but Adams then beat Taylor in the final of the Scania open a couple of years later. So to say that Adams simply couldn't hack it, and is too scared to play with the best in the world is totally spurious. He's mixed it with Taylor and Barney, he's won some, he's lost some, and he's decided he's happiest at the Lakeside for reasons that don't just boil down to how much bottle he has. Fairplay to him.
I suggest that you are the one who is scared. If you had bottle, you'd be on Adams web site (http://www.wolfie-darts.com/) right now telling him what you think of him, instead of taking cowardly swipes at him here where you know he can't catch your scent.
Also, will you be watching the games on the Beeb tonight? Or does the inferior quality of the BDO disgust you so much that you'll spend the evening reading 'Bellies and Bullseyes'?
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#229
The maldives is a hole, yes it may have its luxury bubbles that you stay in and get waited on hand and foot but outside of the walled worlds of wonder there is poverty, murder and people killing chickens on the side of the street.
Give me Butlins at Bognor any day, actually thinking about it not much difference apart from the far superior entertainment at Butlins. Hmmmm similar to BDO v PDC entertainment I guess.
Best get off, going seal clubbing to make some slippers from the fur of poor defenseless seal pups after double history.
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#232
Not strictly true, if you add all crowds from ALL bdo competitions across the country which includes county comps etc then there would be more attendees and therefore more spectators for the BDO. So your just wrong with that argument unfortunately. Back to the seals.
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#232
lots of people like their plastic beer at super venues and attended Bros concerts if it was marketed enough.
11,000 plastic beer drinkers in a super venue doesn't mean the PDC touches the nation via terrestial and tabloid like it once did. Thus the spirit and heart of darts was at its greatest and is now lost.
The World Champs used to involve the nation into every living room, all generations tuning into the great battles.
You think 11,000 plastic beers drinkers is the same thing?
As I said Sky and the PDC are a gated community. Ok so the players have fatter wallets and the subscription payers are happy, but darts is a sport that thrives on street level involvement and looks all the poorer without that mass buy in.
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the mass buy in the a single WC on the Beeb would bring.
As #235 there is still a lot of involvement with the BDO, but I am talking about the showpiece WC
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233
(1)yes but by taking up the england captaincy means he was being supposedly loyal to the BDO does it not? As they are the organisation in which those events are played. Where you talk about carragher you link loyalty with bottle, therefore why am i wrong in saying you said adams chose to be loyal to the BDO when discussing his bottle, when this is the very point your own analogy relates to. Am most confused by your thought processes.
(2)why is it spurious to say that adams could not hack it on a long term basis
(ie full time). He has never played there full time so how is it proven otherwise?
(3) What are the reasons he is happiest at the lakeside? you have already establised by your own admission that it is not due to loyalty to the BDO?
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235 I dont believe this for one second. there was only a few people at the masters the second biggest event. Have you got any evidence?
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236.
the second most stupid comment i have ever red behind robins 23!!!!
Do you sereiously suggest that premier league football is not popular becuase majority of it is shown on sky sports.
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#240
What are you talking about? You've suddenly brought football into it which is of no relevance and you don't even make any sort of point at all.
Firstly. Premier League football is not darts.
Football existed before Sky Sports and EPL, even though Sky pretend it doesn't. I seem to remember Football had some popularity in this country again.
Football is popular because of Sky. Thats the Sky view. You are a Sky clone. You pay your subscription for your gated community and you have to convince yourself you are getting value for money through better averages and oh so enjoy Taylor's dominance.
As I said if you think x thousand in a super arena drinking plastic beer is an improvement on where darts once was, then I will let you, because you are already brainwashed.
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re #238 -
(1) My Carragher analogy was to liken your off-hand attack on Wolfie's bottle levels to Durham's off-hand attack on Carragher. That prompted the Carraman to phone the show and take Durham down a peg or two. You're lucky Adam's isn't on this blog or he's surely be taking issue with you.
(2) You said 'he knows he can't hack it full time and is scared'. I argue that whether or not he believes he is capable of consistently beating Barney and Power has little bearing on whether or not he believes he'd be able to beat any of the other PDC players. Your claim is spurious, because again you jut throw it in there with no argument behind it. I say again that Wolfie has, on his day, beaten Taylor before. If he were to play him week in week out, maybe he'd beat him again, maybe not, we don't know. But why be so negative about a man who has chosen not to take the cash/glamour path?
(3) Reasons why he's happiest at the Lakeside perhaps include the respect of the crowd towards the players, his standing as a respected individual among the other players. He has, in interview, stated that he enjoys working with people behind the scenes and loves the traditions and family atmosphere of the Lakeside. Above all, the BDO offers greater entertainment all round.
This discussion isn't just confined to Adams. Whatever their reasons many players have chosen to stay with the BDO and it's not just because the PDC doesn't allow fatties (see Barney... and Taylor's not exactlly slim these days) or players with 80 averages (check the averages for the early rounds of the PDC people!).
So Olycrofy, will you be watching tonight's games or will your TV be turned off until the next PDC event is aired?
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#240
you obviously think drinking and fawning to Taylor's average (like some old rock band) in some super stadia through plastic beer, with the rest of you in your Sky gated exclusive communities to the travelling closed circus is the way for sport to go.
The rest of us will look to where the darting heart is where the fresh and newplayers come from , where the real competition is and the spirit of democratic sport is alive - not how deep the pockets are.
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240
you said that the pdc is a gated community and implied very strongly that it was in part due to sky. Thus i used a simple analogy to elucidate the fac that sky does not prevent a sport being popular simply because it is the main channel that promotes a sport does not mean that the masses do not like it
darts existed before sky as well, so wahat does that point mean??????????
its not a gated community, its only £40 a month that £1.33 per day how is that gated or elitist??? any true sports fan should have sky sports at that amazing value compared to the bbc price of 36 pence per day
i have been to lakeside many times and the facilites are better than the ally pally-food at ally pally is appalling, but the standard of darts at the ally pally is markedly higher, and as a true darts fan i enjoy watching the sport at its highest level.
did you enjoy ganderson the WDF No1 missing all those doubles. brilliant wasnt it.???
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Ollycrofy,
The evidence is that the BDO has approximately 800 events in its schedule per year, yes they vary on size but even with an average attendance of 1,000 per event then that is nearly 1 million. As for spectators at PDC events, how many exactly watch or see the darts there. 50% can't see the board even on the big screens because they are a mile away from the stage due to the ridiculously large venues they use and of the people that can see anything half of them are larrupped before any darts are even thrown anyway, so can you count them as spectators when the only thing they see is the bottom of their 2 pint pot.
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I think DANINPBORO made an interesting point in 218. Other than his accusation of Robins23 still being at school, of course. On that point it seems more likely that Robins 23 is writing from some highly secure institution, although it may be a zoo as he seems to have access to seals and pigeons.
Anyway, back to 218:
Taylor has revolutionised Darts and will do so for 2 more years.
This is an interesting point, forgetting of course that Taylor hasn't really revolutionised darts (he's still using standard darts with baboon fur flights I presume) but more simply dominated it like a pack hunter. If Taylor has two more years, and given the hole he would leave in the PDC, what will happen then? It will be the ultimate test of the one man show then.
SKY will have to take a different angle and from toting Tayor's (unquestionable) talent and get back to entertainment basics. Darts is not an olympic sport. Darts is a very good pub sport, to be enjoyed with a bevy, good friends (or total randoms) and possibly a packet of prawn cocktail.
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re 242
yes i will be watching the darts tonight as i love it and watch every game at the lakeside.
as with adams whenever i have seen him interviewed he seems to be a really nice affable chap- what i do take issue with him is when he makes adverse comment about the pdc when it is quite clearly superior i find that a bit sour grapes to be honest.
a lot of comments re the bdo crowds being more respectful also make no sense, anyone remenber the 1983 final at jollies.... far more boisterous than the ally pally
a case in point on which event is the more appealing to the general public.
A young girl i work with (only 25 amazing legs), anyway over xmas her boyfriend was ill and so she allowed him to watch all the the PDC event and she got into watching it with him. anyway she ended up sending me texts like "what what the james wade result" because she had missed it.
Anyway i did not back back in the office until early this week and she immediately started talking about the taylor barney final etc icouldnt believe it. I than casually asked her if she had watched the BDO tournamanent, and she said that her boyfriend also watches that but she cant take it seriously because compared to the other one its so bad ( i kid you not).
She has never watched darts before in her life and even she could tell the gulf because it is so huge.
but anyway i am huge footaball fan and like watching first divison games, this does not mean that if the first divison started claiming that they were better than the premier league (as the bdo claim about the pdc) i would agree twith them. It would be a ridiculous comment made by fools.
also last night in commentary a player (waites i think) scored 41 and ted hankey daid "unlucky". Why is it unlucky, it is clearly awful darts. If taylor scores a 41 waddel(his biggest fan) would say it was lamentable. Is this becuase sid waddell knows more about darts than ted hankey, or was ted p£ssed out of his head, in which case why was he allowed to commentate
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Re: #245, You're spot on about the oversized venues for live PDC events. The last one I attended was World Matchplay in Blackppol 2007. The best spot I could get was right near the back from where I could barely see who was even on stage, let alone see where the darts were hitting the board. If the darts was of a higher standard than the BDO, I certainly wasn't in a position to be able to witness it.
Also, the beer consumption level was high and many punters I saw were more concerned with waving their oversized novelty foam hands and chatting up local tarts than watching the action. I saw very few fancy-dress outfits, which are so evident at BDO events and form an integral part of the entertainment.
Sadly I've never been able to afford to get to the Lakeside. Perhaps next year - and when I'm there, I'll be wearing some riduculous costume.
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245
Robins with one b
Total and utter rubbish. The capacity at the lakeside is only just over a 1000, so are you suggesting they get the same audience for their biggest event as they get for a norma county match (which i preume makes up the majority of the 800 matches)
this is obviously just a made up figure. I think you know you are wrong and are just being arguementative. either that or you are very back ward, in which case i apologise.
does anyone know the real figure of bdo audiences???
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#244
I think you'll find football is the national sport of this country for 100 years or so and would always be popular despite Sky's approach.
Sports like darts do not benefit from the gated community as they are weaker. (Many would argue in so many ways football has not either. But you will as you like to justify your subscription in your mind.)
This is why your comparison with darts and football and bigging up Sky is irrelevant.
The 40 a month is quite a bit of money to some people. Yes it is not huge for a lot of us, but it is a barrier that means the sport of darts moves further down the pecking order and becomes less easily accessible to the general interest.
'did you enjoy ganderson the WDF No1 missing all those doubles. brilliant wasnt it.???"
did you enjoy Taylor the PDC no1 strolling to another world title over the PDC fat wallet boys? At least in BDO the tournament is a homage to the world no1.
Of course you would enjoy it, you get off on his average as you think that equates to progress and justifies your 40 a month.
I paid 40 notes to go and see PL darts not so long ago. They didnt even put in a big enough screen so I could see the game.
I could just about make out the doubles by squinting hard. But the only real indication the darts had gone in was the people
near the front who could see the screens cheering. Everyone around me was complaining. So I wrote to the PDC to complain.
No reply ever received. They dont give a stuff.
The PDC and Sky marginalise the best players in darts and destroy general interest in darts there used to be.
Once Taylor goes, PDC will crumble as it doesn't have arteries supporting. It is a made for tv facade.
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248 red furious
you have been able to attend a pdc event but not the lakeside one, are you saying that the PDC is more accessible to the masses???
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re: #247, I think you'll find Hankey has greatly reduced his beer intake as part of a healthier lifestyle, so I doubt he was drunk.
You've surely got to admit, especially now you've owned up to watching the BDO coverage on the beeb, that it is awesome entertainment, regardless of people scoring 41.
I bet you've secretly got a Hankey plastic bat on your mantlepiece haven't you?
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ok my next statement designed to create constrernation.
PDC commentators more more knowledgeable about the game of darts and thus better than the awful bbc ones, the only decent one they had was john part.
compare dave lanning to tony green (its not even a comparison)
i rarely hear the bbc tlaking about the technical aspects of the game etc
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#253
I cant comment. As I said before, I like most of the people that would watch darts just dont watch it on Sky because Sky have marginalised it, so we cannot comment.
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ollycrofy,
If you actually read my comment I say 800 EVENTS, the world champs is a single event so add the spectators from all sessions over the duration of the EVENT and you will have closer to 10,000 for this one event so based on that the spectator number will be close to 8,000,000. I was just averaging it because the EVENTS vary in size to around 1000 per event.
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re #251 - Not at all. Tickets were hard to come by for that particular PDC event, and we only got them by booking almost a year in advance. I went because it was at a venue closer to where I live than the Lakeside is which is how I was able to justify the cost of the ticket. I'm not saying the BDO events are any more accessible to the masses, just that I've personally never had the kind of money to go down there, pay for a hotel etc like the guys in the original blog who spent £850 each.
re: #250 - sounds like your experience of overpriced PDC events is similar to mine - no big screens, no chance of seeing the action. Last time I came away thinking I'd wasted my money completely.
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The mere fact this kind of discussion occurs on the Beeb website shows what the terrestial public approach brings. It brings interest to the sport. This is what the BBC / BDO combination does. It is open and democratic.
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re 252
yes i think darts is great entertainment, i think its instantaneous and liable to change by the second, and i do enjoy the BD0. Although i do not enjoy it a smuch as the PDC events, because in a large part the entertaiment comes from the quality of the match. (the 1999 barney v baxter final was very exciting)
and it is well woth going to the lakeside as it is a good venue and has good atmosphere
but you yourself have to admit that the bdo presentation i.e walk on etc are pretty tacky and lame, and they are entertaining in that kind of way (i used to like steve dukes walk on).
just to reiterate my problem is not with the entertainment value of the BDO , but the fact that it claims to be "the real world championship"
i would like to see john boy win it again, as i had him at 50-1 in 2001 and he made me lot of money, although i reckon adams is the value at 3-1
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I can see this blog has descended into a nothing more than mindless squabbling with neither party willing to budge in the interest of a logical and sensible debate.
I will now strive to add a bit of balance to the arguement which has lost it's way.
The PDC has the better players throwing the better dart's, to dispute that would be stupid. As would, however, disregarding the BDO as a creditable organisation with nothing more than a bunch of amateurs to make up the numbers as many seem to do.
Sky has changed the face of dart's as it has pretty much all sport's, football included. To reinforce a point a chap made earlier, football is a global sport watched by billions and has had that fanbase for many decades. Darts however, was only recognised as a sport in 2005!Let's get some realism, there is no comparison.
Sky is the reason for this chasm between the two factions, it is modern day sport. A broadcaster that addresses the needs of the modern day public whether you agree with the cost is by the bye. In this case, the new generation of dart's fan's have grew or are growing up on the entertainment aspect of sport more so than the actual sport itself. Sport evolves, you either move with it or you don't and the BDO is proof of the latter. No shame in that.
At this stage both organisation's have equal importance to the sport, stretching from the induction of new player's to glamorising the sport previously seen by many as a bunch of drunk, fat men. Comparisons will always be made but at the end of the day they are incomparable. Two different sides to a sport which boils down to nothing more than personal choice.
I choose the BDO, the next man may not..........
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259
you make a good arguement but let yourself down when you choose the BDO.
it is paradoxical as a sports fan to admit that the PDC standard is higher, but say you prefer the BDO,. As a true darts fan you should appreciate the higher standard because of your love of the sport. Fair enough if you dont....it just means you are not a true darts supporter
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The fact that we're all talking about this is a victory for darts as a whole, but you won't see me forking out £40 a month for Sky to Watch Taylor devour all his opposition like an extremely methodical hyena.
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255 robins
ok so say the lakeside gets 10,000 for a single event this does not mean that the average event would get even 1 % of thsi crowd, therefore i still think you are mistaken
dont think the lakeside would get 10,000 as many are repaet attenders, more like 5000 if that
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I agree with Ollycrofy,
The BDO is clearly the best division in terms of quality and entertainment.
The PDC is merely a trumped up legends tournament that would not be amiss appearing on Setanta or something. The current crop of quality players all ply their trade in the BDO. This is plainly obvious to me and I can't see why every other person participating in the debate can't see this.
Just look at the stats, they speak for themselves.
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254
At least you admit that you dont watch the sky event, and are thus not in aposition to comment on the relative standard between the two.
I on the other hand watch both avidly, and have attaneded both, and take it from me there is no comparison
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263
Robins
I know when someone is on a wind mate
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Ollycroft,
I very much doubt that 50% of the crowd are season ticketers. Anyway by this theory are you saying that if any spectator goes to more than one PDC event they only count as being in the attendance figures once??
I also quite like tri-cycles, kinda like bicycles but with more wheels, genius.
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Ollycroft,
Really??? It's only taken you 265 posts, well done.
Right I'm off to watch A1 GP because that formula one event is well rubbish.
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re: #259 Wenger Way,
I think it's slightly unfair you say this blog has degenerated into mindless squabbling with neither side willing to budge. I've had some quality banter here with this olycrofy fella in particular, and (at least on appearance of what's been submitted here) we've analysed each other's arguments carefully, with a great deal of thought, and then provided a sturdy comeback on each point of contention. I may ultimately have to agree to disagree with olycrofy, because I (like you) choose the BDO, while he chooses the PDC, but it doesn't mean we have to stop arguing the toss.
Now olycrofy, the SKY v Beeb commentators debate is a can of worms you don't want to open, but I will take issue with you over the BDO walk-ons. The Count's walk-on is awesome, as is Fitton's. I also used to like the Limestone Cowboy walk-on. The only PDC player with a quality walk-on is The Muffin Man, but his arrows don't match the standard of his cooking.
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who is going to defect? dont think it will be webster, what about anderson. I think he was banking on winning the £85k so he could stay in there, but now can he afford to turn down apremier league spot. Also think whitlock will go.
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robins 267
good point,
im just bored at work!!!
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#264
so you are a Sky elitist. You wont listen to anyone that doesnt subscribe and watch like you and you are the only one that appreciates the great averages and quality darts in your gated commnuity.
Thats the point though of for you to get your cream, the general interest has been lost. Darts doesnt have mass appeal and wont on Sky.
Ive been to a local PDC events (and been unable to see the screen) as I said and I will watch sometimes around a mates house. I went to Ally Pally on the night Barney got his 9 darter as my Sky mates wont go to BDO anymore. So i can comment on this matey. I know the averages are better and I know what Sky is.
Keepp using the Beeb to make your comments matey because that is how the general public interest, emotion and glory will get back to the sport.
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268
I agree about fitton i think he is good character and nice bloke...but i detest hankey
Martin fitzmaurice spoils it for me, he just sounds as though he cant be bothered. he does not say where the players hail from, or there previous victorys etc, just makes the whole ting look amateurish...plus i love the pdc walk on girls
another thing last night on commentary they said scott waites only made hsi world championship debut last year and this year he was number four seed, surley this demonstrates lack of strength in depth
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#272
ref Waites. Doesn't demonstrate anything.
i think you'll find Barney found his way quickly up the PDC rankings, Wade too, even Stompe is now. That's what rankings are about.
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I was addicted to the darts on Sky at the Ally Pally over Christmas and New Year as every match was exciting and the noise of the crowd, the over the top walk-ons and the sing-along at the end of the matches are really entertaining. Although I look forward to Lakeside every year, after watching a tournament such as the World Darts Championship, Lakeside just doesn't seem to have the same entertainment value as the PDC ones do and can be actually quite boring at times. But long as players like Fitton, Anderson and O'Shea, among others, are playing on the BDO Circuit I'll continue to watch.
Also, I loved the Grand Slam that ITV did a while back as it meant I got to watch all the great players of the PDC alongside some of the great BDO player's, including my favourite darts player, Darryl Fitton.
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# re: 259 Wenger Way - just looking back at some of the earlier comments and the whole thing about lasers by this robbin23 was pretty mindless... unless he meant people in the crowd shining laser pens into the eyes of the players - that's the kind of behaviour you'd see from the average PDC punter.
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271
utter utter rubbish. the GSOD of darts was not on sky and the whole event was brilliantly run and put on. Why? because it was a pdc run event. It just looked miles more professional than anything the bdo has ever produced
thus your point about PDC and sky is false
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re 273
barney won world title and uk open and desert classic and others, thats why he rose quickly and james wade won 4 majors?
how many bdo major events did waites win?
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#277
Waites has final, 1/4 and last 16 finishes in the majors and smaller tournament wins. So this means if other players spread the points around (which because the BDO has openness and interest) then a player can get high without actually winning a major. E.g. Murray in tennis. Rankings reflect finishes. Anyone with a basic understanding of sport knows how rankings work in this way.
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278
yeah but murray has not done it over space of one year he has been up there winning big events for a while....waites only made his debut last year. if he only has qf and last 16 finishes surely this should make him in top 8 or 16 not number 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bdo rankings reflect diddly squat
think about what your saying A PLAYER CAN GET HIGH WITHOUT WINNING! fair enough in pdc where taylor is omnipresent, but in more open comp like BDO how can you get to number 4 without winning anything of merit. Its risible
get sky and stop being so tight
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#279
completely wrong. Murray has won non slam events and so has Waites. Murray hardly did a thing prior to 2008 with the Masters type events and it is his push in the last year that has seen him to 4, plus a grand slam final (Waites has 1 too).
Again you do not understand rankings.
If a player finishes 2nd in every tournament he enters he can easily finish the season at no 2, 3 or even 1. It aslo depends on how the points are shared between others. That could happen in the PDC too.
So Waites ranking is consistent with other sports in that a player not winning the majors can finish high. Its normal. Happens in snooker etc.
Yes the BDO rankings seem to place emphasis more on the current year than other sports, but sometimes that just means the rankings are more reflective and you dont get the new best players all meeting each other early in tournaments.
"get sky and stop being so tight"
I can quite easily. Ive got the cash. But I am not thinking with my "Im alright Jack" mentality on here that the SKy PDC supporters do when they lounge back watching Taylor's latest highest average fest.I am more interested in what makes sport great for the people throughout a nation , and me subscribing to Sky would not stop my feeling that I am watching a closed shop made for tv event as parted of a non democratic gated community. I am not saying Sky should not show darts at all, but I think for sports there are certain key events that should remain terrestial because they help the sport grow keep interest high in that sport and benefit that sports. Events like Ryder Cups , Football World Cup, World Darts etc.
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as I said Waites has a final too, you missed it
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280
im sorry but you are wrong andy murray has won 8 singles titles, 2 of which are masters titles, which are huge events(i did not say they were grandslam events)
i do understand rankings, my point was that BDO is a farce because it only has two major tornanments. How does the BDO promote sport throughout the nation when it only shows two and a half events per annum on terrestival tv, i reckon collectively a lot more people watch the PDC events.
Dont tell me you admire the bbc commentary as well.... I bet you do..... oh my god, even my 8 year old thinks tony green is a pratt
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280
is arthur scargill your dad?
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#283 You said "im sorry but you are wrong andy murray has won 8 singles titles, 2 of which are masters titles, which are huge events(i did not say they were grandslam events)"
You said "'how many bdo major events did waites win?" and badmouthed the BDO rankings because of that. So therefore you focused on the Majors, which in tennis are the 4 majors which Murray hasnt won either.
I will explain again.
A player in any sport can be high up the rankings if they are consistently doing well and the points are being spread around, this can be spread between the majors and minors.
Ok got that?
You dont have to necessarily win a major. As per my Murray example.
(And similarly a player that does realy well in one major alone, might not finish that high if he does nothing else all year)
In tennis Grand Slams are 4 majors and in BDO darts there are 4 majors. Got that?
Murray did do some things prior to 2008 but certainly not enough to get him to number 4.
So like Waites, Murray has done most what got him to 4 in an impressive consistent single year. That year being 2008.
You still with this? or gone off into your world already?
So effectively Murray like Waites hasnt won Majors.
Waites like Murray has won a number of tournaments at the level below Grand Slams.
Waites has final, 1/4 and 2 last 16 performance in fact very similar Murray in the 'Majors' in 2008.
Similar really. If other guys are sharing the points between 5 and 10 then a guy like Waites can find himself at 4. Could happen in any sport.
So in conlclusion the BDO has a ranking system (like tennis and snooker etc etc ) that means through volume of consistency a player that does not win a Slam can still finish as high as 4.
SO BDO does what other sports do. But somehow you conclude only the BDO has a "risible" rankings system. And why do you conclude that? Because you want to justify your Sky subscription to yourself.
And before you tell me the 2nd tier BDO events are not as big as Masters tennis events and Murray is more deserving etc.
Please dont tell me that. I am talking about ranking systems here.
No Arthur Scargill is not my Dad, is Rupert Murdoch yours? I just think Sport becomes a whole lot more interesting and exicting when it captures the wider public imagination and interest.
And so much more healthier for the good of the sport.
It moves it to another level and sustains the sport when it is managed well (something yes the BDO should have done better).
A single world champs back on the beeb would do this.
I dont see Sky / PDC closed circus providing it at all, however impressed you are with Taylor's average. So I dont see Sky / PDC as progress at all either.
But dont worry as long as the Sky subscibers and the PDC players and Hearn have big wallets (and they fleece money off you to do it), its all good for darts isnt it?
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284
problem is there are only a few decent players at BDO WHICH ALLOW A PLAYER OF WAITES OBVIOUS LIMITATIONS TO REACH NUMBER 4.
I DONT SEE PAYING £1.30 A DAY FOR NUMEROUS SPORTS CHANNELS WHICH COVER TEN TIMES MORE SPORTS THAN THE BEEB AS A FLEECE, I SEE IT AS REMARKABLY GOOD VALUE
CLEARLY YOU ARE NOT A DARTS FAN AS YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN WATCHING THE BEST STANDARD DARTS.
iIF ME AND BUNCH OF MY MATES WENT DOWN LOCAL HELD A MINI TOURNAMENT AND CALLED IT THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS WOULD THAT BE GOOD VIEWING. WE WOULD ALL THROW TERRIBLE DARTS, CONSISTENTLY FAIL TO HIT DOUBLES, BUT JUST BECUASE WE ARE ALL HAVING A GOOD OLD LAUGH IN THE PROCESS I SUPPOSE YOU WOULD LIKE TO WATCH IT. I'M SORRY BUT DO NOT S EE THAT THIS IS WHAT SPECTATOR SPORT IS ABOUT, IT SHOULD BE ABOUT WATCHING THE GAME BEING PLAYED AT ITS HIGHEST LEVEL AND DUELY APPRECIATING THE QUALITY. IT IS COMPLETELY INAANE TO ENJOY SOMETHING OF A LOWER LEVEL MORE.
I APPRECIATE WATCHING PREMIER LEAGUE FOOTBALL MORE THAN 3RD DIVISON BECUASE THE QUALITY AND SKILL ELEMENT IS MUCH HIGHER, IT IS THE SAME WITH DARTS. I ENJOY WATCHING TIGER WOODS PLAY GOLF MORE THAN MY DAD BECAUSE HE IS MUCH BETTER. I ENJOY WATCHING RONNIE O SULLIVAN MORE THAN THE LOCAL PLAYERS DOWN MY SNOOKER HALL, BECAUSE HE IS BETTER. ALL OF US HAVE A TREMENDOUS LAUGH PLAYING SNOOKER, WE DO NOT TAKE IT AS SERIOUSLY AS THE PROS, BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN I WOULD RATHER WATCH MY MATES PLAY A FRAME THAN THE ROCKET.
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Co Stompe obviously doesn't think the darts at the Worlds isn't entertaining enough.
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#285
You have not got a clue and now you are showing your ignorance by wirting everything in capital letters.
re Waites:
I thought it would boil down to the fact again that as per all the PDC fans
they just say 'averages are great in PDC mate and therefore so is the darts, BDO players are useless'.
If you dont think Waites is a good player and the standard is poor then just say it.
It doesn't mean there is anything wrong inherently with the BDO ranking system itself as you initially said there was.
Just because you dont rate the players doesnt mean everything the BDO does is wrong or crappy.
What you are basically saying is "Waites isnt any good how can he be 4" which is ok if you want to say that, but you made these stupid comments about he hasnt won this or not implying the BDO just make up the rankings or something.
What a time waster you are.
I admit the standard and averages are better in the PDC.
Its obvious I dont deny it. Its because of player power many have left the BDO to follow the buck.
The point is that a good thing for darts ? Can you grasp that concept?
Its good for those willing to pay for Sky, its good for the players and Hearns wallets.
Of course I want to see the best players - but I want to seem them in a unified terrestial event that is available to people to see.
But personally I think you can still watch some good players, excellent games in the BDO and an enjoyable tournament.
Not as good as Taylor sure.
And as I said I like the fact not all sport is becoming Sky-ised and the BDO try and fly the flag for open compeition
and a open darts infrastructure supported by the Beeb which will attract a bigger audience.
I have no problem with Darts being covered Sky and some of the majors and a Premier LEague and sharing the sport as it does for Tennis for example.
But Id love to see the WC with one field and one flagship event on the Beeb , as this is better for the sport.
Darts cannot afford to be split and the flagship event split and the best players inaccessible to the public en massse on Sky.
'CLEARLY YOU ARE NOT A DARTS FAN AS YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN WATCHING THE BEST STANDARD DARTS."
Youve done it again I am not talking about me me me me here. I am talking about darts as a sport.
Yes I can pay my sunbscription if I want to.
I am talking here about putting personal concern to one side - are you able to do that in your gated community for one second? The typical Sky aprroach is me me me so you wont get it, and anyone else is a communist.
no as I explained. To me darts is a people's sport and is more much more enjoyable when I know the nation is tuned in en masse
and involved as a public in the event. Its a social thing - or is that too Arthur Scargill for you?
You know , shared experiences etc.
These makes it what it is. And therefore is more enjoyable.
However how good the average it isnt as good if Taylor wins all the time and people are not so involved in the event aas per the Sky / PDC way.
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Enough of these blokes firing darts at a board (or somewhere near teh board in the case of one BDO player this week).
Ollycrofy #247. This girl with te great legs, more info please!!!!
Robins23 - nice of you to put your IQ in your username.
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If you look at sport as a whole, Sky has massively changed it and not for the better - OK, it's a one stop-shop for a massive amount on varied sports, there is a lot on and the money its injected has raised a higher standard (in football especially), but I still preferred the way these codes were before the cash started sloshing around and a lot of the heart was replaced by hype. The PDC is this evolution in a nutshell.
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#289
exactly : the BDO despite its jewellery and cheese represents the old guts and true darts and yes it has some failings too. But I admire they keep going and I think longer term will prevail (because once Taylor finishes...).
Im not a socialist and sometimes things have to be refreshed to stay alive, and there should be some competition in life, but I am not sure it had to go to exclusive Sky to do it, especially a social good laugh and social spirited sport like Darts.
Maybe Sky will put the fees up soon to further test the PDC fans desire to see a better average....
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In reply to post 260,
"As a true darts fan you should appreciate the higher standard because of your love of the sport. Fair enough if you dont....it just means you are not a true darts supporter"
Utter drival. You have completely missed the point to my post.
People watch sport for their own enjoyment, people take enjoyment from different things and this cannot be dictated by others. Particulary by stubborn and narrow minded individuals such as yourself.
To claim I am not a 'true' darts fan only serves to highlight your lack of understanding of what sport is and it's purpose.
Debating the relative merits of both organistions is a pointless exercise and a time consuming one at that. As a 'true' darts fan, as you so eloquently put it,you should embrace both organisations and understand there is no right or wrong answer but one born from individual preference.
Red_Furious,
True, some points have been logical and considered but with each of these there is an equally baffling and ridiculous comment. Excuse the sweeping generalisation but it began difficult to see a unbiased and sensible post amidst alot of utter crap. This, I must stress is not aimed at everyone so no disrespect intended and I am glad there is still a passion within the dart's fraternity.
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287
AM WRITING IN CAPITALS BECAUSE MY CAPS LOCK WAS ON AND HAD WRITTEN MESSAHE BEFORE I REALISED.
I HAVE SAID I THINK WAITES IS PONY AND SO IS THE RELATIVE STANDARD ON MANY OCCASIONS
HAVE NOT GOT A CLUE WHAT YOUR ON ABOUT THIS GATED COMMUNITY LARK ITS £1.30 PER DAY,THAT IS PEANUTS, SAME PRICE AS A PACKET OF CRSIPS AND CAN OF COKE IN LONDON
I TRULY BELIEVE THAT ALL PASSIONATE DARTS FANS WOULD HAVE SKY BECAUSE THEY WANT TO SEE THE BEST GAMES. IF YOU HAVE NOT GOT IT YOU CANT BE THAT BOTHERED. END OF!!!
HOW DOES KNOWING THE REST OF THE NATION IS TUNED IN MAKE A GAME OF DARTS MORE ENJOYABLE FOR YOU. THIS IS PURE LUNACY. WHEN IM WATCHING A GAME I DONT CARE IF THE BLOKE NEXT DOOR IS WATCHING EASTENDERS OR EMERDALE OR ANTIQUES ROAD SHOW!!!! WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS WATCHING IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO MY ENJOYMENT OF A DARTS MATCH.
AGAIN I BELIEVE ALL SPORTS FANS SHOULD HAVE SKY SPORTS IF THEY ARE REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT FOLLOWING SPORT....FINE IF THEY ARE NOT BUT THE BEEBS COVERAGE IS APPALLING. THE RED BUTTON OPTION IS DREADFUL, THERE IS NO BETWEEN MATCH REACTION AND ANLYSIS OR INTERVIEWS
YOU SAY "DARTS CANNOT AFFORD TO BE SPLIT" WHICH IS COMPLETE TRITE, YOU OBVIOSULY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAME BECUASE IF YOU DID YOU WOULD REALISE THAT BEFORE THE SPLIT THE GAME WAS DYING A DEATH, ITS IS ONLY THE PDC THAT HAS MADE IT MORE POPULAR, AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO FLOURISH WHILST TAYLOR REMAINS AROUND FOR AT LEAST 5 YEARS (PLUS THE YOUNG STARS KLASSEN VAN GERWAN, LEWIS , WADE ET ALL
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291
LOOK IM NOT EVEN GOING TO BOTHER WITH YOUR TRIPE YOUR OBVIOUSLY A GOONER
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ollycrofy
"WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS WATCHING IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO MY ENJOYMENT OF A DARTS MATCH. "
There's obviously some truth in that but you're completely missing the point about the greatest thing that sport can achieve - bringing individuals together. When the England football team get to the Euros or World Cup, isn't it great how the country unite behind them? Having darts on terrestrial brings in new darts fans and if you can have a chat about last nights match with a co-worker, so much the better.
Consider how some of the more minor sporting events in the general public's perception can often get massive viewing figures and spawn new players and fans alike. In the past some 3m people watched Steve Davis win the Masters and the British Women's Curling team get a Gold medal at the Winter Olympics and these were finals that were on at midnight. Darts are more popular than these sports but it's essential that they remain on the BBC, heart intact and hype on the back burner. That's why I'll always be their for the BDO and why the fairweather darts fans will leave the PDC when 'The Power' finally fizzles out.
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"LOOK IM NOT EVEN GOING TO BOTHER WITH YOUR TRIPE YOUR OBVIOUSLY A GOONER"
Very good. How intuitive of you, the capital letters really emphasise your emotion aswell. Top post.
Red_Furious- I think this olly chap has just proved my point.
Cheers olly.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
RE 294
READ MY POST 247 ABOUT THE GIRL I WORKED WITH IN REGARDS TO TALKING ABOUT DARTS WITH CO WORKERS.
YOU ARE COMPLETELY RIGHT IN YOUR COMMENTS RE SHARED EXPERIENCES AND SPORT BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER (ALTHOUGH I CAN ENJOY IT ON MY OWN)
However you are missing the point. the events you commented on i.e steve davis where events where the top players in that sport were on the bbc. the top stars of the darts worlld are clearly not on the bbc.
the reason why the 14 players formed the wdc etc was because the beeb and bdo could not give a crap about enhancing darts back in hte early nineties
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"IN SPITE OF YOU NAMING YOURSELF AFTER A COMPLETE KNOB LIKE WENGER I SHALL RETORT"
Another witty comment. You really are making yourself look good here today.
"IF PEOPLE TAKE ENJOMENT FROM THE CHEESE AND JEWELLERY OF THE BDO, THEN THEY ARE NOT TAKING ENJOYMENT FROM THE SPORTING ASPECT OF IT ARE THEY"
?
You are basing your entire arguement on your opinion, which holds little to no weight whatsoever. Even if it did it would not influence a persons choice.
Cheese and jewellery?
I can't seem to find the part where I say I am enjoying the aforementioned items in my post more than the darts itself!?
If you insist on making things up olly, make it something good. A real lack of imagination that.
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298
apologies it wasnt you it was cs15 hammer who wrote that
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would like to discuss a few points.
1. Quote from Wenger way "the only PDC player with a quality walk-on is The Muffin Man" Dont say that, I have tried one of his muffins, not good.
2. I agree that Better averages dont make a more entertaining match - see GAnderson missing all those double - that was entertaining.
3. But saying that I prefer wactching PDC.
4. Tony Green makes me sleep.
5. Sid Wadell talks too much about Taylor's stacking.
6. I feel strongly about this next point, BBC, I dislike, to put it kindly, the camera work, its like I am watching the darts whilst on a rollercoaster, the camera goes from looking at a backside, to a hand, to a 90 degree angle, to the dart board and to the crowd for a split second then back to the arm.
7. Wasnt very professional of Wolf to make those comments.
8. I am a PDC fan, but Have to be honest, BDO top 8 is just a strong as PDC top 8.
thoughts?
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I would like to know if anyone agree with ted hankey observation that a score of 41 was "unlucky"
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bdo vs pdc (based on BDO rankings and PDC order of merit )
Gary Anderson (Sco, 1) vs Phil Taylor
Mark Webster (Wal, 2) vs James Wade
Martin Adams (Eng, 3) vs Barney
Scott Waites (Eng, 4) vs John Part
Darryl Fitton (Eng, 5 vs Terry Jenkins
Gary Robson (Eng, 6) vs M.King
Ted Hankey (Eng, 7) vs A.Lewis
Edwin Max (Ned, 8) vs Mardle
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question for wenger way
which event do you feel is better from a pure sporting aspect the PDC/BDO??
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#297 - You're missing the point. Bar anything else, those events were great adverts for the sport; entertaining to fans and casual observers alike. That's why it's important the BBC still shows darts. For me, I prefer the BDO because although the standard may not be quite as high, it's more engaging and more inclusive entertainment than the PDC. I'll say it again (and again and again) - 'heart over hype.'
#300, point 8 - I bet ollycrofy's got a view on that.
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RE 302
ONLY BDO PLAYER I CAN SEE WINNING OVER LONG SET MATCH IS MAYBE EDWIN MAX BUT NOT VERY LIKELY
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In relation to the earlier comment about the BDO getting more crowds overall on all of the events, you are wrong big time.
The PDC events get an average crowd of well over 2000. The BDO struggle to get over 1000.
The PDC entertain and give more for the public.
Rather than some overweight idiot dressed in a cape trying to look like a vampire they get stunning women to walk on with the crowd.
They also entertain more and have more razamatazz and professionalism in the approach. Yes you got the odd idiot but people are there to make noise and have a great time.
I'd rather pay to go to the Ally Pally or Premier League darts than to the Lakeside, which is dated and needs an update. The Lakeside has no atmosphere and reminds me of a 80's working mens club.
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304
THOM THOM THEY WERE GREAT ADVERTS FOR THE SPORT BECUAE THEY FEATURED THE PRO'S. BBC DOES NOT SHOW AMATEUR SNOOKER DOES IT
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Re #291: Wenger Way, I have to admit I agree with you that it's hard to identify the serious arguments among the piffle. Even some of the posts that start out making serious points eventually seem to lose the plot, like Robins23 - strikes me that the bloke obviously has a wealth of darts knowledge, yet he's sunk to making baseless claims about 8 million people attending BDO events over the course of one year. Perhaps he got tired of maintaining a serious debate, which is a shame as this thread's generally been contested with admirable passion.
Re: #300: AppleSystem, I've never tasted a Muffin Man muffin, but always suspected they were poor - cheers for confirming my suspicion. However, at least he makes an effort with his walk-on, unlike others who just have an obvious tune.
Just over an hour until tonight's quarters commence. Bring on the arrows!!
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Another Question for the dart players: Pick one, winmau or unicorn board
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#307 - Great entertainment, great entertainment, great entertainment.
#306 "The Lakeside has no atmosphere and reminds me of a 80's working mens club" - That's why I like it (and no, I'm not 63 or thereabouts).
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re 308
They got passed to a friend of mine (the muffins that is) I tasted it and lets just say I will stick to the stella next time.
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When I play on a winmau I seem to get more bouce outs.
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In reply to post 300,
"1. Quote from Wenger way "the only PDC player with a quality walk-on is The Muffin Man" Dont say that, I have tried one of his muffins, not good."
Do people have a penchant for making things up on this board?
Please refer to the number of the post in which I have said this.
Reply to post 303,
I think I have already answered this when I said and I quote.
"The PDC has the better players throwing the better dart's, to dispute that would be stupid"
In future please refrain from asking questions in which you have already recieved the answer. It get's a bit tedious after a while.
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What BDO events are in sentanta?
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Re: #306, Daninpboro
Hankey's whole 'Count' image is one of the things which, for me, makes the BDO an awesome spectacle. It's utterly absurd, in the sense that vampires have nothing to do with darts, DJ Zany's 'Be On Your Way' has nothing to do with vampires, and 200 beats per minute don't fit with a fat, balding bloke in his sixties, but because of all these things I love his walk on and can't wait to see it again tonight.
I want to see stunning women as much as the next man, but there should always be a place in darts for a bloater in a comedy costume.
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#292
"I TRULY BELIEVE THAT ALL PASSIONATE DARTS FANS WOULD HAVE SKY BECAUSE THEY WANT TO SEE THE BEST GAMES. IF YOU HAVE NOT GOT IT YOU CANT BE THAT BOTHERED. END OF!"
Passionate fans maybe (maybe not) but you miss the point again.
By gated community I mean it is not accessible to all easily.
The few will pay for Sky and lock themselves away and get the enjoyment whilst the masses wont.
As I said before - yes cost for Sky is not that high, but I think when you have key sporting events like a single World Darts champs, Grand National, Ryder Cup etc etc
that are key to a sport and interest and public love of that sport then it has to be on terrestial.
So people tune in without thinking en masse, the people get interested without even realising they are.
Football can cope, the others cant so easily.
ThomThom can understand this, You cant.
That is the point.
You can say 'oh well they should pay for sky if they like darts', the point is they dont pay, and to love the sport first they need to see it first and get into it first. And where will they see it first? Sky? Not really.
Beeb yes.
The Olympics are key for so many sports in this country because they are showcased on the beeb. It gets people interested.
If Barney was playing Adams in the semi this year, and Taylor v Anderson on the Beeb in a single world darts at the lakeside,
we would all be seeing the best possible players, best possible darts and the sport would be truly national again. But you wouldnt be happy as you like to snoot down on everyone else and feel special with your subscriptions.
As I said darts is a social sport and it doesnt sit well to be pushed away on to Sky for the few.
Can you grasp that?
"HOW DOES KNOWING THE REST OF THE NATION IS TUNED IN MAKE A GAME OF DARTS MORE ENJOYABLE FOR YOU. THIS IS PURE LUNACY"
ThomThom understands this.
Of course it does make it more enjoyable. Ever heard of context and meaning and emotion in sport? Or do you think it is all about subscriptions and averages?
When I see a 6 nations rugby match , and you see the welsh crowd before singing their passionate anthem and you realise that behind all those players and stadium there is a nation too (and yes able to watch because of terrestial), completely behind them in pretty every corner of every street in that country and how much it means to them, and watching live on terrestial, then sport becomes a lot more than just 30 rugby players on a pitch.
Just as when Kathy Freeman as an Aboriginal athlete in Sydney 2000 you knew that her country was united behind her - all united in that one moment, in the stadium
and cheering on tv, all going nuts together.
And the lasting positive feeling caused in that nation by that moment, which was a lot more than a woman running around a 400m track.
Imagine if that had been denied them because it was on some minor pay channel which most people couldnt afford or didnt subscribe to.
Can you grasp that?
Now I am not saying that darts reaches those heights. But I am saying that terrestial in the 80s gave darts a persona and popularity to Lowe, Bristow and Wilson that meant
the nation shared the darts experience and these matches counted. People would talk about them at work, read about them in the tabloids.
So to me yes the context that the sport means something beyond what you see on the screen.
But I can see under the Sky viewer mentality that you just dont give a stuff if you were the only person wealthy enough to see the game.
Can you grasp that?
"WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS WATCHING IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO MY ENJOYMENT OF A DARTS MATCH. "
Yep you said it. You cant see past your own nose can you.
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Re 316 ;ollycrofy-
cs15hammer and I obviously agree on this but surely you can imagine that if this years Ashes resemble 2005, how much potential excitement that would generate? Loads, but unfortunately because the live coverage is restricted to Sky a lot of the general swell of interest would be lost and that is not good for the sport. That's why taking Sky's money is in the long-term going to prove detrimental to cricket as a whole. The same would apply to darts. I just thank God we have the BDO on the BBC to fall back on.
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#317
yeah ThomThom too right about the Ashes.
We have the Beeb and BDO - its good I do agree but it could be better - as id just so love seeing all the players back again (although Id wouldnt want to see Taylor win all the time!) under one BDO / Beeb world champsroof that would be the best.
I think Phil owes it to his sport to make it happen! If he goes the others would follow.
As I said I dont mind if say the Darts PL is on Sky etc just as Sky share tennis with the Beeb. But Wimbledon just has to be on the Beeb. It has to. Tennis would be poorer if it was 2 circuits and the best players on Sky. Surely a balance between terrestial and Sky could work.
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Unfortunately, it seems that every year terrestial TV loses a little more live sport (and highlights). Setanta is speeding this process up - how can the FA cup not be on the BBC (or at a push, ITV)?!!?! I wouldn't be surprised if Wimbledon went the same way in the next few years, protected charter or not,
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And Phil going back? No chance, in my eyes.
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How the hell can some people complain that the PDC World Championship is on SKY. Do you not see what Sky and the PDC have done for darts?
Sky market and promote PDC events in a big way. The coverage for the WC was amazing. Wht would PDC and Barry Hearn drop Sky. They would be crazy to do so!
The PDC does not need BBC. The BBC's advertising for the BDO WC is a joke.
Some people have no clue how darts was on its death before the split. Olly Croft and the BDO had no TV contracts and didnt seem bothered about it. Look how well the PDC is doing and nobody can now argue that the players were wrong to split.
PDC is where the money is. PDC has the large crowds. PDC has the premier League!
Also it will survive when Taylor packs it in. Do you think all these fans are paying just to watch taylor? Dont be so silly!!
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#321 - I think you may have totally missed the point in an awesome way.
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I dont mind some stuff going to non terrestial but certain events should never go, because they are the essence of sport. I dont mind ITV too much.
I mean Premier League football on Sky doesnt bother me. PL darts fine.
But England internationals no. Wimbledon no. And I dont like it when TV starts to determine the circuit or events too much. There used to be a protected reserved list but it seems the govt just gave up on a lot of it.
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#321
yes ThomThom
321 is the kind that completely misses it all.
I dont doubt the quality of play and quality of coverage is fine with Sky. The key point is it is marginalised and not watched by the wider public any more, and the sense of community and involvement that keeps public interest in the sport and for me makes it popular and great is lost.
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Without wishing to get off the darts too much, I also understand that there may be a problem broadcasting the Olympics on terrestrial in 2016 - OK, it's a few years away but that's a real danger. If that's not safe, what is?
The Count or John Boy? I can't decide...
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The PDC ain't safe. Taylor is the reason the PDC has all this prizemoney because he's made darts what it is. He has turned darts into a popular sport and once he goes (he says he's going in 4 years), I think the PDC will struggle without him. Of course, darts has to move on but I think it will lose some of its popularity once he goes.
I'd have tipped Wade to have come in at that point and start winning plenty of world titles but he just seems to have been playing rubbish ever since the World Matchplay. I'd like to see Barney make it six though.
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Agree with the many similar comments regarding Sid Waddell.
We've watched every darts contest shown on Sky before he was even signed up with them. Just comes out with streams of incoherent rubbish. It's just not funny. Needs to tone that nonsense down and start calling darts again.
The difference between Waddell in the old days when they are repeated is so different! Wouldn't surprise us this ramblings was by the orders of Sky and they are the ones feeding him silly lines to say via the headset.
He also sounds like a rabid barking dog when guys are going for doubles. There's been a few times players have actually heard him across the other side of the hall and put them off the throw. Also happened during the 9-ball when he commentated on that.
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#315 - for your information Ted Hankey is not in his sixties, he's in his early forties!
Personally, I love to watch him - his style is so elegant - he does not throw with that "jerky" action a lot of players use, and he stands with his body so perfectly still while he is throwing. Very mesmerising!
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Yes I was slightly surprised earlier when Tony Green said Ted is 40 and a google search confirms he is 40 !!
Dunno why some people on here have been harsh on Tony Green. Hes a friendly nice guy, knows his darts. Doesnt go OTT like Waddell.
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I have to say I like the BBC commentary. OK, it's not for the hardcore darts fan and it can be quite esoteric but that is what it needs on the BBC to appeal to the non-darts fan. Take it all with a pinch of salt. I find it is all part and parcel of the show - the dressing up, the crowd atmosphere and the entertaining darts action. Again, it's not about the hype, but the heart.
My girlfriend nows nothing about darts but she finds the commentary makes the coverage more accesible for her. It's not dry, technical stuff about averages and checkouts; it is about personality and gems of a soundbite such as "Hasn't he got a lovely face" and discussing some bloke dressed as a Stormtrooper in the audience.
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And the Count dressed as the Count in the audience who brought his own coffin. The vampire sleeps when the opponent is throwing but when Hankey throws he wakes up and when Hankey wins a leg the Vampire celebrates... awesome! lol 'Be on your way'
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There has been a lot said about the relative merits of each of the darting governing bodies. I must admit that as a youngster (when my parents did not have Sky TV) I used to love watching the darts at Lakeside every year.
When I came to University I managed to get Sky TV for myself and was living with a massive darts fan who introduced me to a whole new world of darts with the PDC, I have to say from that point I have never looked back.
Clearly there is a massive gulf in class between the two organisations anyone who witnessed Raymond Van Barneveld average over 103 in the PDC final this year and still get beaten 7-1 can see that. An average of around about 90 would see you comfortably into the final at the Lakeside judging by recent history.
Whilst I take on board the importance of the BDO within darts as it does produce a great number of players and supports the grass roots of the sport, but sadly that is all it will ever be, the grass roots of the sport... Pub darts for want of a better phrase. If you want to see the real pros, the true greats of the current game you will have to go to the PDC.
What annoys me most about the BDO presently is their constant sniping about the PDC. The BDO should just concentrate on making sure they run the best tournaments they can with the type of players you'd find down the 'Dog and Duck' and allow the PDC to get on with running tournaments for world class darts players. The comments of Martin Adams infuriate me further because for all his talk you never see him play in tournaments like the Grand Slam of darts where he would be tested against the best in world darts, instead he is happy to beat some very good amateur players (most of the time). Again I say good luck to him, if that is the limit of his ambitions but don't keep commenting upon the failings of the PDC before having a good hard look at the organisation with which you play your darts.
And one final thing I have watched the PDC on Sky and the BDO on BBC and Setanta. I see massive crowds at sold out venues watching players averaging normally 95+ at the very least on Sky Sports. On Setanta I see half full theatres and clubs and players averaging 85+ at a stretch. Everyone will have their opinions and say their piece, but I know what I'd rather see!
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#332 - Each to their own. Hype over heart.
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Although I appreciate the history of the BDO, the fact that it's going to be Ted Hankey v Tony O'Shea in the final of the tournament is frankly a joke. These two players, lets be honest, wouldn't get past the first round in the PDC! OK, they throw a better dart than I ever will be able to, but they are a fine example of the mediocre state of the BDO. They just can't accept that the PDC is better and resort to sniping at them rather than actually doing something about their shoddy organisation.
I appreciate some people don't have Sky, but that is the only reason why the BDO is still going. If there was only one sports broadcaster in the country the BDO would have been wiped out long ago.
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Hankey v O'Shea it doesnt get better. Be on your way.
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#332
you make some fair points in a more rational balanced way than a lot of the PDC supporters on here however
"If you want to see the real pros, the true greats of the current game you will have to go to the PDC."
yep as per ThomThom its hype over heart.
A lot of casual sports fans will probably know of Ted Hankey as much as James Wade because the Count is not marginalised onto Sky. So I am afraid your great darts you see is not being appreciated by too many people.
#332 said "Clearly there is a massive gulf in class between the two organisations"
#332 said "I see massive crowds at sold out venues watching players averaging normally 95+ at the very least on Sky Sports."
#334 said "Ted Hankey v Tony O'Shea in the final of the tournament is frankly a joke. These two players, lets be honest, wouldn't get past the first round in the PDC! "
yes #332 maybe the BDO and supporters moan about the PDC partly because of the sneering comment you get from PDC people like #334s above......
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Entertainment Value will be 10/10. Game on.
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cont from #336
...on that theme oh yeah and by the way whilst Taylor does it a lot (and PDC fans seem to think Taylor = PDC therefore all the players are great and therefore 'a massive gulf')....
.... only 6 different men have achieved an average of over 100 in the PDC tournament, compared to 7 different men in the BDO tournament since the split in 1994.
(although Taylor has im sure done it many times individual of course for indication of strength in numbers)
I think if you take The Power and Taylor away - and look at the bulk of the decent players - there is no 'massive gulf'.
Barney may have improved in recent times but dont forget he was BDO for 15 years, and a very good player in BDO days too = he has been a very good player far longer in the BDO than he has been PDC.
But he cant have been any good in his BDO days can he PDC fans? because no BDO player could possibly get past the 1st round could they and when they defect to PDC they all get a lot better. Yes Barney has improved in the PDC but he was very good before too. Its ok Sky / PDC fans forget stuff like that. Just like football only started in 1992 according to Sky, Barney like all BDO players are rubbish when they play in the BDO.
There's been some excellent latter round matches (forget averages) at the Lakeside this week, exciting contests.
A lot of the later rounds of the PDC were predictable.
Here are some of the averages and players in the PDC this year - latter stages:
not focusing on Barney and Taylor who we know are awesome:
1/4s Nicholson 82.5 v Wade 81.7 (yes 82 and 81); Bates 87 Stompe 89 (Klassen did put in a big one in defeat and a great game against Barney i admit)
Semi Wade 91 King 89
I dont think many of the experienced BDO 1/4 finalists this week would have a problem going in with the above crew, not saying they would win for sure at all but
would be pretty even. Stompe, Klassen, King were recently BDO anyway (and Stompe and King never won the tournament) as well as Barney so they in a way show the standard of BDO.
Guys like Adams, O'Shea, Hankey, Fitton, (less so) Walton are all consistent hardened tournament match playing BDO campaigners and would give all the above PDC players (except of course a 'normal standard' Barney and Taylor) a tough match.
Barney has his off days dont forget. Ronnie Baxter almost beat him this year, and Ronnie I would class him as a BDO 'good standard' type player.
Gary Anderson was not at his best but is very good on his day too. Waites and Robson have talent too.
continued
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These BDO guys might not often hit 100 averages but will often be 90-94 and yes whilst this might not beat Taylor or Barney often, I think it would very often be enough
to be competitive against all the others. And then it comes down to big match experience, doubles and winning legs at the right time, cos lest we forget
averages do not always win it. I certainly think the experienced Adams and Hankey for example could take on these apparently amazing PDC 1/4 finalists like Stompe, Bates and Nicholson.
I think if there had been a 1/4 final where the average was 82 and 81 at the BDO this week the PDC backers on here would have been sneering to high heaven (Wade v Nicholson).
Had Kirk Shepherd been in the final in the last couple of years of the BDO - the PDC fans would have been sneering.
I mean after all Kirk averaged 89, 88, 85 in the 1/4 , semi and final respectively in PDC WC 2008 and it was good enough to get to the final!! I mean only the BDO
would get someone in the final with such an average - it couldnt possibly happen in the PDC could it? #334s words above come to mind about a player like that - "in the final of the tournament is frankly a joke." Yep you said it.
In 2008 PDC 1/4s Kevin Painter averaged 85 to beat Adrian Lewis who average 86 , 5-2.
Stompe wasnt exactly the best player in the BDO (ok he may have improved since leaving a bit), he goes across, gets to the 1/4s of the PDC and then you get people above saying
the BDO players "wouldn't get past the first round in the PDC" = yes and you are a m*ron.
I am not saying the BDO is amazing standard, but there are some good competitive matches and some good players.
And patronising comments like "wouldn't get past the first round in the PDC" just do PDC fans a disservice and make Sky / PDC seem very arrogant.
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#334 'I appreciate some people don't have Sky"
oh yeah its more than a few for the world champs
despite having obviouly the potentially classic Barney and the Power final Sky got 1 million in the UK which is their best ever.
Last year BDO final got 4 million.
Adams v Nixon drew 5 million.
And this is without the obvious draw of Barney and Taylor.
They were of course far higher in the 80s when all under one roof with the BDO Beeb.
This is why more people know the Count Ted Hankey than James Wade.
If Wade has a better average it doesnt mean a lot to them.
Many casual darts watchers could see Ted Hankey win the world title
again tomorrow and for them and for these millions they will have more memories of living and breathing through his world titles wins than Taylor's 14.
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I went to the Lakeside for my first time this week. My husband treated me for my 40th birthday and we watched both nights of second round matches. It is by far the best sporting event I have ever attended and I can't wait to apply for tickets next year.
Lakeside is a professional venue run by professional people. The darts players who play at Lakeside have never forgotten where they have come from and will happily mix and chat with joe public.
Even the young players who are coming up through the ranks do not have the massive egos of other sportsmen.
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What a great final. All the commentators that have written on this blog can surely agree on that. And if you didn't see it, take my word for it.
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The best players WORLDWIDE want to play PDC events - look at the averages and tell me again which org has the darts second to the TV event...
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re 316:
the person who wrote this does not know what he is on about. If you read back through my posts you will see that the underlying point is that the
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re 316:
the person who wrote this does not understand the point. If you read back through my post you will see that my underlying point is that the BDO world championship doe not deserve to call itself A WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP because it does not feature the best players! whether or not it is accessible to the majority of people is not decisive of whether it should be classified as a world championship event.
the events you describe ie ryder cup, grand national, all feature the top class in that event. the point with the BDO is that it does not!!!
If you disagree with me in any way I am happy to take advice on where I am going wrong
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re: 316
also the person who wrote this has no idea about the history of darts. The beeb did not give a stuff about the sport of darts when it was dying a death in the early nineties and even now it only broadscasts one a nd a half tournamanets a year.
glad to see the viking has gone to the PDC
GOOD LUCK WATCHING YOUR NEXT BEED TOURNAMENT. WHEN IS IT????????????????????????
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No Olly you dont understand. Its you 'who doesnt know what he is on about'. In every point youve made.
So heres your advice.
I am talking about a single darts world champs which should be in existence for the good of the sport. A social spot, an everyman sport.
AS I EXPLAINED i dont think Darts is strong enough to have 2 circuits, with 1 marginalised with YES THE BEST PLAYERS on the PDC but marginalised so only 1 million people watch them. This is what I was comparing with the Ryder Cups, Grand National etc.
The Grand National understands that it is a truly national event because it is on every year on terrestial. The nation tunes in.
The PDC is a made for tv exhibiition circus enjoyed by a minority , so as i said your great averages are just not enjoyed by enough people in regards to what Darts could be seen by.
Yes the standard is good (but as per above examples I gave such as Nicholson v Wade, Taylor and Barney aside not always as great as the PDC backers believe).
You can say 'oh well I deny the BDO is a world champs event' etc but the fact is to millions more viewers they see Ted Hankey win his title more than than Phil Taylor. So whether you like it or Ted is the champ. They live and breathe through Ted's exciting win and some of the exciting games at this Lakeside especially 1/4 s onwards.
Ted is relevant to them because they see him win. The standard is good enough.
In the 80s and 90s there were periods when Serie A was the best league in the world, not the top English division where the standard escpecially in the late 80s was poor. But people here still watched our league despite the standard being elsewhere. This was because the English league remained relevant to them and what was accessible to them. BDO / BBC darts remains far more relevant to the democratic everyman sport of darts and enjoyed both in playing and watching by so many more people so I think they have the rights to their tournament a WC as much as the closed greed exclusive circus that is the exhibition PDC.
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#346
usual PDC tripe about darts dying a death in the 90s.
You speak in cliches Olly. Duped into your thinking by Sky mentality.
No the fat cat players like Taylor wanted more money, doesnt mean it was dying a death. PLayer power isnt always a good thing for the sport because it serves one interest group.
Yes darts needed to be improved in the 90s. The BDO / BBC needed a kick in the pants.
Like Tennis some events could have gone to Sky but the main one (Wimbledon = World Champs) stay on the Beeb. That would have been far better than the split we now endure, and a situation where millions do not see Taylor's great WC play. And having to listen to muppets like Olly bang on about Sky / PDC as a good thing.
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Anyway the standard Olly. Duped by Taylor's averages. What about the other players apart from Taylor and the BDO's Barney....?
Nicholson 82.5 v Wade 81.7
Kirk averaged 89, 88, 85 in the 1/4 , semi and final respectively in PDC WC 2008 and nearly won the PDC
like to comment??
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Guys lets face facts here
I love Darts. I cant afford the SKY subcription for Sport. Im jealous.
The reason Im jealous is because I get to miss the PDC championship and without doubt the better players. To say the players are not better in the PDC is just ridiculous.
However that does not mean the BDO does not have a place and also a valid right to call itself a 'World Champjonship'. Of course it does. I have thoroughly enjoyed the last week and the final last night. Its all about spectacle and I have seen glimpses of the PDC at a freinds house and the BDO & BBC do a good job.
Ted Hankey is a valid world champion and I dont think his win should be devalued in any way. You can only beat who is in front of you and he has. Good luck to the guy.
It is extremely sad to note that more people in this country will recognise and know who Ted Hankey is compared to a 15 time world champion like Phil Taylor who is the best player the world has ever seen.
I will continue to support the BDO because without it I will not be able to watch any darts at my home.
I think that is the deeper argument here - not who has the better players. Obviously the PDC has.
Its about losing sport to SKY. Whats next - the Snooker. Believe me - it the BDO went the PDC would miss them. How many players go straight into the PDC - I dont know the answer to that so I stand corrected if its a large volume. It appears to me that the best players in the BDO then move to the PDC and increase the value of the PDC as a spectacle.
BDO v PDC of course the PDC but god bless the BDO....
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re: 347
i understand what you are saying bout more people watching BDO, but just because more people watch it it does not justify it calling itself a best player, because their world champion is not the best player, the best player is not the one who the most people watch?
are we at crossed swords over this or do you diasgree wit this point
moreover darts IS poorly covered by the BEEB with only one and half event per annum, do you consider this good coverage???
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re:348
are you deluded when you say the main events stay on the beeb?
what about
Premier league football
test match cricket
f1
glorious good wood
cheltenham festival
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re 349
the year kirk shepherd got to final was a one off....want to compare the averages from every other year.......bet you dont???
winner of PDC final nearly 20 points higher thab BDO, IF THAT DOES NOT SIGNIFY A MASSIVE GULF I DONT KNOW WHAT DOES
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#350
hear hear.
#351
I personally completely understand Taylor is the best player. But I think BDO can call Hankey the Champion of the World if they want to. IN boxing, another sadly split sport due to money and greed, they can call up to 4 guys (I think there might be more) champion of the world if they want to. The sad politics and split in the sport dictate it. The BDO believe they hold the democratic spirit of darts in their organisation. They think they have they best competition and deeper framework so they believe in what they do and will stand by their champion. If some players decide to go off and form their own darting private circus, as far as the BDO are concerned their framework remains the legitimate one and whoever comes through their open system and wins to them is the legitimate champion and they will label him the best.
As I said before just because Serie A was a much better tournament than English top division, people here still believed in the league competition and champion team. Even if the best team was elsewhere.
The Beeb show what they show based on what the BDO can give them now. If Taylor and Barney had not skittled off to Sky they might be able to get higher figures and invest more. Anyway I think the Beeb does justice to the World Champs and this is the flagship event the sport of darts needs all players under 1 roof. As I said before the Premier League events could be on Sky etc with the World Champs on the Beeb. One circuit. Tennis works in this way. Wimbledon on the Beeb, series events on Sky. Some Grand Slams on Sky. That would be a winning combination, the players all back under 1 roof, the BBC to win the viewers and create interest in the World Champs and a couple more big events a year, and a strong Sky offering too. Darts would be popular and not marginalised, and Sky might get more viewers too.
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RE:355
I THINK YOU ARE SLIGHTLY MENTALLY IMPAIRED THUS BEFORE I WASTE ANYMORE TIME ON A TOTAL LOSER LIKE YOURSELF....
CHANNEL 4 IS NOT THE BEEB YOU FOOL....
IM AFRAID TAYLOR IS IN THE PDC AND THUS CANNOT BE TAKEN OUT OF THE EQUATION, WHEN HE IS NOT PLAYING THEN PERHPAS THE ORGANISATIONS WILL BE CLOSER, BUT THE FACT REMAINS HE DOES PLAY FOR THE PDC AND DESERVES TO BE TAKEN INTO THE EQUATION AS MUCH AS EVERYONE ELSE..
BARNEY AVERAGED 102 IN FINAL AND LOST! BARNEY IS ANOTHER HUMAN BEING, THUS ONE HUMAN BEING PLUS ANOTHER HUMAN BEING = 2 HUMAN BEINGS, THUS HOW DOES THIS EQUATE TO ONE HUMAN BEING AS YOU SAY IN YOUR PREVIOUS POST. U NEED TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND DO SOME MATHS MATE, NOW GO BUY SKY U WALLY
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Worked out how to turn the caps lock off yet? No I thought not.
Taylor is the best, but he does not equal darts.
Channel 4 is terrestial , I was talking about the virtues of putting key sporting events on terrestial, not shutting them on Sky so their heart is lost.
You are not worth the breath.
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e 361
glad you admit taylor is the best, and therefore it makes no sense to call the lakeside champ the "world champ". well done ou have completely contradicted everything you hav previously written
send me your bank details and i will give you some money so you can buy sky sports, i can imagine your quite hard up
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I have not contradicted myself, I have said what I said all along that Taylor is the best player but it would be so much better if 10 million people were seeing all the players and Taylor win under one roof at a BBC / BDO (WDO call it whatever) world champs, as Darts cannot afford to be split in this way.
You just do not read what anyone says so you believe people suddenly change their views.
I quite often pay out money to see good democratic open sport, not a players circus. So I have no idea what you are driblling on about.
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Blimey o'reilly you lot are sensitive. Ok I'll re-post this.
I've read almost this whole thread and haven't commented until now. But I want to say well done Ted that was a brilliant final, brilliant victory well deserved and over due. I've been rooting for him every year since he won it and I knew he was good enough to win it again if he got his head together.
Now anyone who watches that final and says the darts in the BDO are rubbish is a tool, plain and simple. If you didn't appreciate what was on show then YOU are not a true fan of darts. End of.
There are so many people posting on this blog (and the other boards) who are so clueless about how the darts world works. They see 2 'world championships' broadcast once a year and think they know everything about everything. The BDO/WDF can't go away anymore than the Football Association or FIFA can. You mugs. They are the governing body of darts. And give me one good reason why they can't call their champion the world champion? I don't give a monkeys if Phil Taylor wins the PDC another 14 times, he still has no more right to call himself 'undisputed' than Ted Hankey. Lets say the top performing teams in the Premiership one day decide "Oh this FA cup is a bunch of cr*p we don't get enough money lets split off and make our own cup competition". Do they then have the right to call themselves the true champions when the rest of the teams in the country aren't in it anymore? Um, no. Only when there is a unified WC can anyone truly claim to be 'the' world champ. You c!
an bang on about Taylor, Barney, averages, whatever all day long but you are still missing the point.
The split only hurts darts in the long run. The truth is they need to unify the 2 organisations. Open up the major tournaments. Have one ranking system. Grass roots remains, professional level remains. Then split the different tournaments split between Sky & the BBC or whoever. No one is talking like this is possible. Why? The Premiership is shown on Sky but the FA cup and the World cup are on terrestrial. It's all football, just different competitions with their own TV rights. What's the problem? Why does it have to be all one or the other? It's only bad blood and stubbornness that is keeping this from happening. There's no logistical reason why it can't.
As a darts fan, I for one want to see everyone mixing it up on tv. I want to see Barney and Taylor versus Hankey and Adams. They are all great players. It's just lame to slag anyone off and claim to be a fan of the sport at the same time. Sure if you don't like Martin Adams then say you don't like him personally or something but don't say he's a crap darts player because you sound like an idiot. Does anyone commenting to that effect have any idea how hard it is to be even remotely as good as these players?
The Taylor worshippers who knock it are the same old glory hunting, fairweather fan types. You probably all support Man U and Chelsea. So boring. You don't have any passion for the game. Taylor may be amazing but he's suffocated the PDC. It's only entertaining to me when he loses.
Both factions need the other. It's gone on long enough. Sort it out and merge the sport back together. Let's hear some more passionate argument for this please! If everyone was as vocal about this as they are for arguing the merits of a tv broadcasting corporation maybe we could all get on with enjoying the game more.
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hear hear as Ive been saying darts shouldnt be split in this way and we shouldnt be listening to the likes #362 banging and sneering on about how bad the BDO is and how great Taylor's average is.
There is darts it should all be open - and all players should compete for a world title on terrestial to get the punters in and there can be Sky / Setanta / whatever tournaments too to give detailed coverage during the rest of the year. Easy.
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IMO PDC will always be better because of the class commentary making it more interesting. Sid for example with his comments are legendary. The guys chucking for d10 and he says as some call it in the game, 'the side lipstick' i mean where does he get it from. Also when he says 'skinny skinny red bit' makes me laugh a lot more. All BBC do is bang on about the first three dart averages which are still less than 100. Last point i also like it when Sid says 'barneeey' in his geordie accent hes a ledgend.
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Dirsy - enjoyed the blog, it's on par with your usual standard of test match commentary - quality.
The BDO vs PDC argument is a boring one, especially when fans of both organisations refuse to acknowledge the contribution that the other has made to the game.
The BDO is a great breeding ground for up and coming Dartists and the few TV tournaments they have give them good experience for the larger TV tournaments that they will compete in if they are good enough to 'defect' to the PDC and make a comfortable living out of playing a sport they love. It is understandable that any ambitious player would want to play in front of big crowds on TV and earn very decent money in the PDC rather than earn a fraction of that money in a non televised event in the BDO.
I , myself, prefer the PDC (and I refute the claim that some on this blog have made that this makes me less of a Darts fan). The BBC may make darts more accessible to the majority but they do it so infrequently that as a darts fan, if i want to watch regular games on TV then SKY and the PDC are the place to do so. I agree that sometimes the crowd may go too far (booing/whistling whilst people are throwing) but this happens in most sports and is, I'm afraid, par for the course at most sporting events where alcohol is a big part of the event. The anti-PDC brigade do seem a little bitter to me but as has been previously pointed out, they may just be defending the organisatin they love and in doing so, come across as slightly bitter and twisted. The PDC has made darts a popular game again, as popular as it was back in the days of Jocky, Bristow, Lowe et al. I would suggest that were it not for the PDC bringing darts' popularity back, we wouldn't see a darts blog on the BBC website with well in excess of 300 replies posted.
I hope the BDO continues for years to come and that the PDC continues to offer great players the chance to earn good money for being good at their sport because as long as this is the case, I will be able to watch and enjoy darts.
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