A day in the life of the Head of BBC HD
Post categories: hdtv
| 21:34 UK time, Friday, 30 October 2009
Hello Everyone,
I know the extended silence has been frustrating you - I've been away from the office for some of the time, and also handling a range of other issues. Looking at your comments and questions, I thought that it might be useful to give you a sense of what I do apart from writing this blog - not just to justify the time I spend away from it but because I think it might help to give you a flavour of the range of current issues for the BBC and HD.
On a daily basis, when I get into the office, I look at the overnight log from the broadcast engineers. That identifies any technical problems with the channel - and unfortunately, as many of you will be aware, frequently highlights problems with HD transmissions. Sometimes the cause is clear - human error or a system not doing what it should - and often we're only talking about a few seconds of interruption. But on other occasions (audio drop outs from the Electric Proms) it is harder to get to the bottom of what is going on.
Like you, I find it deeply frustrating that more than 20 months after we launched the channel the service still doesn't always run smoothly. I appreciate that we are deliberately pushing at the boundaries of what has been done before - regular live broadcasts, switching between different channels and different types of content, but I would like us to be in a better place than I feel that we are, and believe me, I'm working with a team of others (hopefully) to get us there.
I also receive on a daily basis the channel audience figures from BARB, colloquially known as "the overnights". Across channels they are a less than perfect guide to viewing, but they are the basic currency all channels work with. With BBC HD figures which I know some of you look at, there are particular concerns. Numbers of those with access to HD are growing all the time, which must make it difficult for BARB to keep pace. HD households still represent a relatively small proportion of the total TV audience and therefore the figures are less reliable than they otherwise might be. Take those factors together with the prevalence of recording devices for those with HD, and the willingness to use them, and it means that while the figures give us a sense of how programmes have performed relatively, they are just one of a number of sources of information which we look at to evaluate the channel's performance.
Those issues out of the way, the day, tends to be taken up with meetings. In no particular order, the issues I'm focussing on at the moment are....
Picture quality: I know this is a big concern for some of you, and honestly, I don't need lots of complaints to start to worry about this. I'll defend to the hilt a programme like Criminal Justice, which I think looked fantastic, though others are entirely within their rights to dismiss the "film look" that it went for. But of course I want to make sure that we keep up the standards of the HD offer from the BBC, and I want to make sure, through looking at both technical and audience filters (pardon the pun), that we are in good shape.
I've launched some further work around this - not because I believe there is a problem, but because I want to make sure there is not - and together with Andy Quested I will of course bring you the outcomes of that work as soon as I can.
HD programmes and schedule: As you'll know, we're still a growing channel. We're actively exploring whether we can extend the channel hours overall, but meantime there is plenty of work to do in growing the amount of content that the BBC is making in HD. Lots of time is spent on conversations with producers inside and outside the BBC looking at whether they make a move to HD, how they do it, and how much it will cost. I really feel that we are experiencing a sea-change here.
When I started last Summer there was a marked reluctance to consider HD in many areas, and very little proactivity from producers. We are now reaching the point where in some areas there is more demand to work in HD than we have the resources to support. It is a good problem to have, but it also generates a second, much more difficult issue of which you will be well aware: With more and more content coming through, how do we best schedule the channel? This Autumn we have a particularly rich mix of programming, including The Restaurant, The Culture Show, Children in Need, new drama and comedy, new US acquisition from BBC Two Defying Gravity, and of course Life, Strictly Come Dancing and Top Gear.
We know that programmes work best for you when we show them at the same time as the standard definition channels, but with such a diversity of content we can't always deliver it, and we're as frustrated as you are when we have to make those choices.
Navigation: Many of you comment on the difficulty in knowing when things are on. I run the channel, I sign off the schedules, and I also as a viewer sometimes find it difficult to locate content I'm looking for. There are a variety of routes to solving this, and believe me when I say that I am working my way along all of them. BBC HD is not like other HD channels in the UK. Because 100% of our programmes are made in HD, we are not a simulcast of another channel that you know and has a familiar structure.
Because we want to bring you the very best programmes across the full range of flavours from the BBC, you will find programmes from BBC One, BBC Two, BBC Three, BBC Four, Cbeebies, CBBC, and even occasionally some programmes which can only be seen on BBC channels in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, or on BBC Red Button. I want to make it as easy as possible for you to enjoy BBC HD, rather than to battle with it, and therefore to find effective ways to plan your viewing, and to move between BBC channels to access the HD versions of programmes which you love on other BBC services.
Freeview HD: A lot of the thinking in the BBC about HD has been around making sure that HD does not become an exclusive, subscription-only offer in the UK. You can get BBC HD even on Sky without paying an additional subscription, and of course getting the channel (and other HD services) on to Freeview as well as Virgin and Freesat is an important part of ensuring that everyone can have access to what we believe is simply the next, normal TV standard.
I'm expecting that when HD arrives on Freeview at the end of the year the platform will probably play a significant role in the growth of HD homes through 2010, although I think that HD take-up from the other existing platform providers will also increase over the next year . There are plenty of other people around the BBC who are actively involved in making HD on Freeview, because of the BBC's involvement in switchover and the overall development of the digital terrestrial platform. Really, I'm just a channel provider. But I'm conscious of the need to make sure that BBC HD is fit for the mainstream audience which I'm sure will come to HD over the next 12 months or so, through a variety of platforms.
BBC HD Strategy: I know that many people ask where the BBC goes next with HD, and a number of you have thoughts about what the answer to those questions should be.
Thinking about our service development is just one aspect of the BBC's approach to HD. I also have to work with others to address the questions around how fast we move BBC in-house production across to HD delivery, how we move programme commissioning across, how we work with independent producers around these issues, what cameras and other resources we should use, and how we ensure that we deliver the best possible value for licence payers out of the investment we're making in HD at the moment.
I don't think that HD is a luxury for the BBC - it is the way that TV production is going and we could not turn our backs on it, anymore than viewers would have thanked us for deciding that colour TV was not for us. But that doesn't mean that there is lots of money to spend on this area, nor should there be when across the BBC we are looking for savings, and trying to make money go as far as possible. That of course presents daily challenges around how we make the budget we have stretch to encompass our ambitions for you - the HD audience.
In between meetings - and of course in the evening - I do what I hope you would want and expect me to do: Watch television. I try to look at what we are about to broadcast, and what we do broadcast, but also need to see programmes we are considering for HD delivery, and I try to watch other channels - both SD and HD - to get insights into other ideas that we should be considering.
I also - of course - check this blog for your comments and feedback, and even write a new post when I can and have something to say. I don't want to give you just marketing for programmes and therefore, I'm afraid, there may be longer breaks between posting than any of us would ideally like. I hope this is useful, and even possibly interesting. I will be back.
Danielle Nagler is the Head of BBC HD, BBC Vision.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~47~RS~)
Comments
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Your comments are appreciated. If you want HD viewing figures to rise, push FOM for F1 in HD. You would make a lot of F1 fans very happy indeed. I suspect this would also captivate the casual follower of the sport and it would make for spectacular viewing.
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No point broadcasting F1. Although it would be great the current poor bitrate and the encoders probably be able to cope with fast motion at a decent quality.
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I welcome the picture quality "work" (whatever that is exactly),
"not because I believe there is a problem, but because I want to make sure there is not" as you put it.
I'm pretty sure you'll find there is a problem..
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Fascinating, thanks Danielle. Concur with Scoobie at #3 though, so I'm looking forward to Andy's next Blog too and, although I hear that you won't be hurried, I'm very much hoping that we'll learn more about the work's outcomes sooner rather than later. Who knows, if they're positive it might even save me a lot of effort. Here's hoping!
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Danielle:
Apprieiate that honestly of your remarks and thanks for the
keeping us in the loop...
=Dennis Junior=
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Danielle,
I really appreciate you giving us an insight into what the job entails. With a limited number of hours and new programmes to broacast, it's a tough job deciding what is shown at what time. The Restaurant, The Culture Show, Children in Need are fantastic new additions to the channel and I can't wait to watch them all. I'm even looking forward to seeing you on Sunday on Points Of View :)
However, as you can see already, there are some very passionate people out there (myself being one of them) who demand the very best - picture quality being one of them. Personally speaking, I wouldn't know one end of an encoder from the other and bitrates are completely over my head. I love BBC HD, it's the best of the best, but something has happened to the picture quality that more than a few people have noticed and this is a concern. As head of BBC HD, I'm begging you to please address this issue as the number one priority for the viewers.
Best Wishes,
Ian.
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One thing that strikes me.
WHEN a programme is simulcast on BBC HD and another channel, how about "making something of it", one of:
- use the HD titles on the other BBC channels
- have HD versions of the other BBC channel indents on the BBC HD channel
- have special "simulcast" titles and presentation.
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Danielle, I must say I'm surprised you say that you don't think there is a problem when there are so many complaints. I've had HD since the early days of the test channel and there has been a very noticeable change in the last few months. Leaving aside Criminal Justice have you viewed the transmission of Waterloo Road? This looked little better than 'slighlty better than SD' I thought it might be an upscaled broadcast but it was most defitely not HD quality. Can you confirm whether or Waterloo Road was actually broadcast in HD? There was no logo/DOG up.
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I said at the time, Criminal Justice was the wrong programme to highlight PQ issues on POV. It's interesting that out of all the complaints it received, POV picked a Criminal Justice one, which can be explained away as an 'artistic' issue, rather than a technology one.
Does anyone think POV picked that particular complainer on purpose?
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#9, derek500, , Mike (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/profile/?userid=14181406) who was the POV complainer, is a professional photgrapher and he was well aware of the 'look' that they were trying to achieve with CJ. My understanding of his complaint is that he was making the point that the challenging nature of the material was let down by the PQ, that's how it came across to me. I know he has some interesting things to tell about further contact with the POV team, and others, which I hope he might share here but I won't steal his thunder.
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How's this for a letdown?
http://img340.imageshack.us/g/cjwalk7.jpg/
Once again, frame captures of the bitstream.
Plenty more where they came from. Posterisation, macroblocking abound. But this is the worst seqence I've found so far since it's movement that really kicks it off, and there isn't much movement in the episode I have!
When Danielle says she thinks the show was fantastic, I seriously wonder what she is watching it on. Well, this is the the raw data before our TVs get hold of it. There *are* some beautiful shots in the programme--so long as no-one moves.
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For comparison, a shot with no movement. The hair looks a bit strange but that is because it is an interlaced frame, and this wouldn't be apparent in a live picture. It seems obvious to me that this is what the director wanted, but not the above.
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8593/cjcontrol.jpg
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Thanks for the blog Danielle, but theres one thing your bbc hd viewers are asking for and is just not getting - Picture Quality issues to be acknowledged.
Why will you not admit there is issues with picture quality and admit there is issues with low bandwith???
I just dont get why you have to be in denial when everyone who posts on here is telling you there is an issue.
There simply is not enough bandwith on the channel and no matter how much BBC HD think they can ignore it and fob off viewers it simply will not go away.
The Quality is dreadful. Its like watching upscaled SD, something I did not spend lots of money on new tech for.
The channel cannott cope with the ammount of bandwith allocated and im sure deep down you realise this.
If you are in no position to sort this out and get the bandwith upped, then why not put a request in to axe the channel then let the SD channels to be at a decent quality. At the moment the channel is just a total waste of time and bandwith.
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Danielle,
Thanks for your blog.
I am at a loss as to why you will not acknowledge that there has been a degredation in picture quality on much demanding material.
Undemnding material is indeed OK from my POV, but we still are seeing problems with gades/mixes and indeed any complex footage.
I am concerned that the BBC management consider the complaints to be made by a minority of, sorry for lack of a better phrase, "techy geeks" who are not representative of "joe ordinary" who doesn't notice any problem.
I hope that you commissioning further work on this subject is not indicative of the BBC going out to do some market research in an attempt to show "most people" don't see a problem.
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"I've launched some further work around this - not because I believe there is a problem..." Which of course begs the question, if you don't believe there is a problem, then why waste time and money on the work?
Of course there is a problem. Are you saying all of the posts on the HD Quality blog are wrong? What is baffling many of us is why you won't admit there's a problem. Denying the obvious ruins your and the BBC's credibility.
If your commitment is only to the current "HD Lite" service that the BBC is currently offering, then please say so and we can all move on. Those who want proper HD can then decide if they think it is worth paying Sky for their service.
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Hi Danielle!
Really appreciate your comments. It's nice to know theres someone working so high up that clearly is actually listening to what we say, so thank you!
To anyone who is constantly moaning about DOG's, picture quality, this that and the other... get over it! DOG's are part and parcel of digital TV. You think a barely visable small BBCHD logo is bad, try watching TV from around the world, where in some places half the screen is an advert!
And if you're REALLY that fussed about the picture quality, go back to watching it in SD. I personally am still thrilled watching anything in HD, no matter the bitrate, it still looks alot better than SD. Just give the guys a break and understand compromise, and more importantly, that things don't happen overnight. Jeez...
To everyone who works on the BBC HD channel, thank you for providing it, thanks for the content, thank you for Top Gear in HD, and thank you for still being here several years down the line, where most people would have just given up.
And praying for F1 in HD still... Someone call the FOM and get Bernie to turn on his hearing aid and listen! lol!
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The fact Danielle wont acknowledge there is picture quality issues shows why BBC HD requires a new boss at the helm.
Maybe someone to show Danielle the ropes???
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Last one on Criminal Justice, for now at least.
Here's a sequence of seven frames. There is blocking on frames 2,3,5,6.
First, a slideshow version
http://img263.yfrog.com/slideshow/webplayer.php?id=cj1.jpg
The hosting site resizes them to make it quite hard to see, but you can click on frames to (eventually) get full size versions, where it is obvious. Frame 5 is the worst.
A gallery version. Again the host interface is a bit awkward for getting the full sized versions.
http://img263.yfrog.com/gal.php?g=cj1.jpg
This is similar to the pattern I've seen on other programmes, and posted a sequence of in the picture quality blog: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/09/picture_quality_on_hd_a_respon.html?page=2#comments
see post 735
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@ 17, I think the BBCs credibility was lost some time ago by constant denials from BBC HD.
If they have no interest in quality then I just dont understand why they dont save funds and scrap the channel.
Something is seriously wrong with BBC HD from the top with management right down to the technical issues.
Just who is going to sort this channel out???? Well no one it appears.
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For the interest of F1 fans, a HD satellite transmission feed from Abu Dhabi has been identified today so the stated intent of filming this race in HD seems to have come about.
It is a shame therefore it is not being shown.
However it at least gives hope for next season.
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The fact is Danielle, the picture quality of a majority of programmes have suffered, as you may have read from the blogs. This should be your priority to the viewers, otherwise whats the point of the channel. You can churn out all the variety of programmes for the channel to suit peoples choices but if the fundamentals of picture quality are not in place, what is the point. Better of watching it in SD. Disguise it however you want, let the viewers eye do the talking.
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Well after 884 complaints and one and a half months Dannielle has finally had time to make a post. Unfortunatly there is absolutly nothing in this blog we did not already know. In fact it is just a regergitation of all the complaints of the last 4 months. I think the word "fustrating" is rather and understatement many of us are furious at the way the BBC treats licence payers. How can you justify being out of the office for one and a half months and handling other issues when there is such an uproar about the most pressing problem which is picture quality. The posts already show that the blog readers are already fully aware of what the current issues are we don't need another blog to remind us how bad things have got.
We understand that you are not a technical person and I would not hold that against you. How long does it take to read a technical log? My guess is certainly less that half an hour. I would expect that your role in dealing with technical problems is to make sure there was sufficient resource to fix the problems in a reasonable time. In fact the BBC should have a "Technical Quality Plan" to manage technical problems. It now begs the question as to why it has taken the BBC so long to fix the sound problems. I understand that the BBC pays below the market rate for technical people, may be the rates need to be inceased in attract higher quality staff. May be there are too few technical staff or they don't have sufficient test equipment. Certainly you need to look at adding more redundancy into the sound system if quality standards are not being met. I do know that Dolby Sound is a much more complex and so I would expect that sound quality management is much more difficult.
We do understand that BBC HD is a much more complex system to manage but you have had over three years now to sort the problems out. I do think more money needs to be made available for HD.
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Ok now to the BARB figures which are available here:
http://www.barb.co.uk/report/monthlyViewingSummary?_s=4
Obviously the BBC get much more detailed figures but what we see here is very interesting. As you can see the viewing figures for BBC HD are not only apawlingly low. Even worst they are actually decreasing and this is while the number of HD viewers is increasing. Sky now has over 1.6 million HD subscribers which must mean about 3 million viewers. What is even more interesting is that there was a sudden drop in August. It seems to me that this may have 2 causes. Firstly the BBC HD is mainly a repeats channel and so it might be we have come to the point where people have seen the programs before and don't want to see them again. The second reason may be fantastic drop in picture quality we saw on the 5th August. Maybe people don't bother to switch over to BBC HD if they can't see any difference in picture quality.
I dont understand the comment "which must make it difficult for BARB to keep pace". It looks as though you are blaming BARB for the low viewing figures. It would be useful to know what other "sources of information" you use to evaluate the channels performance and if they show anything different from BARB.
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I just find your defence of Criminal Justice incredible but I suppose your were a journelist in a previous life. Well HD_fan428 has just posted the photographic evidence unless of cource you are saying that the director deliberatly wanted us to see codec artifacts. I think you should show these photos to the director and see if that was really what he intended. I have seen thousands of films but I have not seen any that looked like Criminal Justice. "film look" my foot just more journelistic gobbledygook. In fact this point is more serious. Poor codec quality also has an impact on artistic freedom. Directors are going to have to make sure that actors only move slowly, panning and zooming must be very slow. Fading and transisions must also be at a very slow pace.
You say that picture quality is a big concern for "some". Well this is just not true. The whole point in spending money on an HD box is to get better quality pictures. If picture quality was not a concern people would just stick with SD. "Looking though technical and audience filters that we are in good shape" more gobbledgook. Danielle you need just to take away all the filters and look at the photos and you will see what a complete mess the BBC is in.
"not because I believe there is a problem". Yes well I guess you are the only one in the world who is right, the photographs are fakes, what we see on our televisions are just optical illusions of artifacts, and the viewing figures are a figment of our imagination. The Emporers new clothes comes to mind.
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Nick, why is there no "complaint about this post" link for Danielles blog???
The blog insults many many viewers and should be removed. You remove posts from viewers for very little yet let the head of BBC get away with a very insultong blog.
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#23 The 320,000 (estimate)or so Freesat HD homes are the only captive market now for BBC HD. With Virgin's 700,000 homes now getting more HD channels along with the 1.6m Sky HD homes, the extra HD choice must be affecting BBC HD's viewing figures.
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I don't think there is any reason why Danielle should be technically qualified to run a TV channel. The problem is that this is a channel that is reliant on new technology and her defence of Criminal Justice "to the hilt" is just plain odd. And then there's the new series of Spooks this enjoyable film like TV that really by any measure of
commonsense be filmed in HD. Things do not seem to be going at all well at the moment but I wish her luck in sorting it out. I do believe you should be judged in how you solve problems so ahe should be given a chance.
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@ 26, I think we all know the real reason not many watch BBC HD and why the ratings are getting even worse and its nothing to do with the increase of HD content on sky.
People are just sick of the lack of HD quality on BBC HD and Viewers are protesting with their remotes.
Even some TV stores have turned BBC HD off in my area. Why do we think that is hey????
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The Emporers New Clothes Part 3
HD Programmes and Schedule
Of the new programmes mentioned by Danielle only Top Gear would be of interest for me. As has been mentioned before Top Gear has some superb photography and would realy benifit from HD. Most of the programs I watch are only in SD. These include Spooks, Have I got News for You, New Tricks, and Question Time. The scheduling problems is mainly due to not having simulcast channels. One thing I do hate is when the scheduling for a series is changed mid series. The BBC should get rid of some of the stupid rules like only alowing 20% sport and films and not permitting things to be shown on BBC HD before the SD channels. Showing more sport and films would be better than the continuous repeats.
Navigation
Again most of the problems would be solved by simulcast. I wonder if something could be put on the EPG to show that a program will be available in HD.
Freeview HD
I personally think that Freeview HD is a route to disaster. There is an old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Freeview HD is going to be transmitted at a much lower bit rate than on Satellite and so will have even less definition and more artifacts. Although many people might buy Freeview HD equipment will they bother to turn over to BBC HD to see a picture no better than that on SD. The declining viewer ratings for BBC HD is not a good omen. I wonder if Channel 4 and Five and maybe ITV will withdraw from Freeview HD. It would not be financialy viable for them to transmit HD to such small audiences. Transmitting on Sky would make more sense as they would get a cut of the HD subscription fee. Freeview HD is also limited to just 4 or 5 channels and so HD red button services are out of the question.
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Hi Danielle, thank you for your post.
Is there any update on F1 being in HD next year please?
Is there also any news on whether BBC HD is going to provide full coverage of The Winter Olympics? Coverage will run from roughly from 4pm - early morning. 4pm will be needed for a round up programme whilst looking forward to the coverage that would start at 5pm on that day.
Will a second channel be created to provide overspill coverage?
http://www.vancouver2010.com/olympic-schedule-results/
The times are 8 hours behind the UK.
If there is no wish to switch the transponder to DVB-S2 can't a second channel or red button HD stream be set up and the transponder as it is now and be allowed to run on a stat-mux rather than fixing the bit-rate of the channel?
A second channel could be created on the transponder for now, a further improvement would be to remove 1 or 2 of the MPEG2 channels that would share the transponder with the 2 HD channels.
In the future when the transponder is finally changed to DVB-S2 will BBC HD be able to secure all the slots? In 2011 BBC News, CBeebies, CBBC and BBC Sport will be at new broadcast centres that will be fully HD equipped.
Now that the studios for Have I Got News For You, QI and the Graham Norton show are either available in HD or soon will be will these shows be soon shown in HD? TV Centre is also getting another studio upgraded on top of 2 studios now having the ability to host HD equipment on top of the 3 that already produce in HD.
With more content this should boost the viewing figures for the channel.
As for the BARB ratings securing the BBC HD logo on programme trailers and the websites of these programmes will hope boost the number of viewers as well as securing separate TV listings for the channel.
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Apart from flicking the odd show on to see if the quality has improved, I just dont watch BBC HD anymore. The quality is awful and with the way us viewers have been treated from BBC HD management, there is just no reason to watch anymore.
Im sure its not the case but with the comments made by Danielle, lack of answers to questions, and the awful quality of picture, It really does feel that BBC HD are trying to make as many viewers turn off as possible.
BBC HD is a total PR disaster.
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Just caught a look at Emma and its clearly not HD. Why are BBC showing upscales????
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Woof.
Sorry is my dog getting in the way of your blog.
Having said that, yours is getting in the way of my picture.
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Could I make a suggestion please. I'm not a mod or anything but is there any chance posters could make their point in a single post like myself and not keep repeat posting? I really don't want to have to scroll through over 800 posts like the last blog. We all know how angry we are but posting multiple times isn't going to help our cause.
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You have your style others have theirs, each to their own. Happy reading.:)
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Post #20: There is no HD feed for Abu Dhabi, the information you have received must be incorrect.
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@wednesday83,trevorjharris and paul_geaton
BBC HD has already mentioned they have the right to show the Olympics outside of the 20% rule.
Perhaps BBC HD is preparing to create a second red stream HD channel in MPEG-4 for events like the Winter Olympics and music festivals and The World Cup where people want lots of live coverage or HD replays and highlights. There is room to fit it on even if the 2 MPEG-2 streams are left on the transponder, though removing at least 1 would be better.
This would be feasible if they can't upgrade to DVB-S2 now. The red button stream wouldn't always be running so BBC HD could enjoy the extra bit-rate when the extra stream isn't working.
Most boxes now allow you to record of a interactive stream as it would be unlikely to get approval for BBC HD to launch a second channel.
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I do not see the point of HD. It is technologically profligate and there are far better ways to broadcast.
Here is one way:
I would like to see only live programmes broadcast live - everything else should be transmitted to local data storage and then only once.
Your 'schedules' would then consist of a list(aka the schedule) of programmes including live broadcasts and programming held locally on the local data storage device (large hard disc) in the viewer's home.
This would maximise efficiency (and could also be put together so as to include adverts for commercial broadcasters.)
What do you think?
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The images of Criminal Justice I posted in #11 and 12 above seem not to be working at the moment. As there is likely to be an increase in interest in this topic after Danielle Nagler's appearance on POV, here is an alternative site. You have to click the image twice to get a full size version with the correct aspect ratio.
http://www.mypicx.com/11012009/BBC_HD_artefacts/
Pic 1 from post 11 shows gross digital artefacting; pic 2 from post 12 shows what CJ can look like as long is there is no movement. Personally I think that *does* look fantastic, which makes the problems all the more lamentable.
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Danielle,
I cannot believe that you and Andy do not agree that the PQ has fallen dramatically since the introduction of the new encoders and the bit-rate reduction. Andy implies a financial reason for the reduction. So if BBC is serious about supplying the best quality HD why not reduce costs elsewhere.
Millions are being spent on i-player and www.BBC. I am not sure in my own mind that they fall within the core remit of BBC broadcasting but I resent licence fee money being spent on them at the expense of the BBC producing and broadcasting PQ that is second to none. I would suggest that the majority of licence payers watch BBC on a TV rather than use i-player. www.BBC is available to the world – free of charge. Why?
Can I suggest that all regional TV is restricted to terrestrial so that all the regional BBC channels on Satellite can be utilised for HD No problem with bandwidth for you or any of the five terrestrial broadcasters for exceptional HD TV and you may make savings.
Have just checked the football, it is SD+. On the basis that BBC is unlikely to improve I have ordered Sky. The documentary's that I watch usually make their way there at some, I hope the £10 per month will be worth it.
Roger Watkins
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The football looked very decent indeed when there was no movement, it did struggle tho with fast panning shots and did not cope well with the rain.
A little more bandwith and I reckon it could have been stunning. A shame BBC HD dont want stunning HD.
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@wednesday83
It did look good in HD though it could have been better like you say.
Would you agree if BBC HD launched a second channel via the red button for events like the Olympics on the transponder and allowed the bit-rates to stat-mux things would look better?
Would be even better if at least one of the two remaining MPEG-2 channels was moved.
And when the red stream is not working BBC HD would enjoy even more bandwidth.
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Football did look good today. Please tell me the Newcaastle v Boro game will be in HD.
Nice Blog Danielle thanks for all the new programmes in HD. An intersting insight into what a 'Highly Paid Executive' does.
Will post later on your many comments.
Can anybody explain what is happening in Defying Gravity It is enjoyable but very confusing, I am lost?
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@John_from_Hendon
Sky already has such a service and it is called Sky Anytime. Part of the Hard Disc is reserved for these programs. At present freesat is just an EPG and does not have its own dedicated transponder space other than that required for the EPG. There is already a service provided by Topup TV on freeview but not in HD.
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I did watch some of the football today. Motion problems were very evident even slow paning reduced everything to a blur. There was very bad blocking when they had close ups of runing footballers. During some of the fades and cross fades the picture completly fell apart. The match was shown with more zoom than Sky. I assume this was to compensate for the lack of definition but this unfortunatly made the motion blur more evident.
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Danielle, there are 2 ways ahead for you now, as I see it.
1) Ride out the storm of protest, it'll go away eventually - some are already doubting that PQ is worse than it used to be, as people forget. Transmit an HD lite service on both freeview and satellite/cable and sell it as "great quality" SD pictures. Settle for mediocrity, and save loads of money.
2) Get "management" to permit an upped bit-rate on satellite and cable, return PQ there to previous levels (with new encoders it should actually become stunning), simulcast as many SD series as possible, advertise HD furiously before all SD broadcast, have HD listings in all newspapers and tv guides, get people to watch HD as preferred option over the other 4 channels, have current users and new converts rave over the quality of BBC HD on your blogs, POV and other forums, negotiate for F1 coverage in HD next season, ensure at least 19.9% of your progs are films and sport, watch as sales of freesat boxes and BARB ratings soar, adopt Andrew Knight's ideas for additional HD channels. Bathe in glories of having turned around a failing channel, driving it to become the Premier BBC channel, and accept responsibility for having led the drive for all BBC channels to be transmitted in HD.
Take your choice!
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Re: my #48, I forgot to add. As people comment here, perhaps they might like to add whether they personally believe option 1) or 2) is the better policy. I suspect some will prefer option 1) but the majority would prefer option 2). But please let her know whether I'm right.
I'd also encourage all those lurkers out there, many of whom have been in touch with me by email to get yourselves a BBC ID, and let Danielle know your opinions. It's all well and good telling me, but she's the one who needs convincing. Should she go for the mediocre SD lite option 1), or blaze the FTA HD trail by adopting for option 2)?
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of course, above, I meant to say: SD+ / HD lite option 1), or blaze the FTA HD trail by adopting for option 2). Get voting.
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It's Danielle's POV appearance next and interestingly the head of drama is on too.
It looks like the whole PQ debate may fobbed off with the 'gritty BAFTA' Criminal Justice production methods and not the real reason.
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Please stay on topic. The plot of Defying Gravity is off topic.
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One area that you and your colleagues constantly ignore is those of us who use Computer-based "Home Theatre" systems.
Apart from the decreased picture quality, the BBC HD's recent encoding changes have rendered BBC HD unusable for many who use these systems.
Queries about this from fellow enthusiats have received the now "standard" reply that you intend to support Freeview, Freesat and Virgin and Sky. Implicitly therefore you aren't interested in those of us who access BBC HD via other means.
Given that those of using "Media Centres" do so via perfectly standard Satelite receivers I find this lamentable.
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#46. trevorjharris wrote:
"Sky already has such a service and it is called Sky Anytime. Part of the Hard Disc is reserved for these programs. At present freesat is just an EPG and does not have its own dedicated transponder space other than that required for the EPG. There is already a service provided by Topup TV on freeview but not in HD."
Yes, I knew, maybe I should have said so.
But what troubles me is that all broadcasting is not moving towards the same system as it is technologically more efficient (i.e. programmes are broadcast/downloaded once and can be 'repeated' many times - the adverts opportunity that this technology could provide is also I think important. (vis. adverts could be tailored for each postcode for example giving rise to more focused sales - you could be offered adverts fro things you were interested in for example.)
Instead we are moving to HD with its profligate use of bandwidth when most of use do not have HD eyes! The other problems with HD relate to the limited bandwidth that means that compression artefacts tend to become more annoying and more obvious - programming sold as HD are often little better than SD as the actual bandwidth used for transmission is too limited and this inevitably generates compression artefacts.
Personally I would like to see more stories and programming made rather than fewer HD programmes. Much of broadcasting is in fact dominated by the heavy iron already purchase technology in the equipment warehouses of the broadcasters. Many of the latest HD amateur cameras are more than up to producing the same if not better technical quality than those used for origination by the major broadcasters. The amateur cameras may lack sufficiently robust plugs and sockets, but that is about all.
Freeview has shown that viewers are quite content will quite low bandwidth TV material so long as there is a good story told. HD is a technical solution looking for a viewer need.
I would like to shoot in 4K (I'd love a 'Red One' camera and all its associated bits! - I also used to like shooting on 35mm - all that 'feel of film guff') all the time and edit on huge computers, but the audience is quite content with low data rate TV (1-2 gigabyte an hour or even less) providing the story told is of interest. It used to be a technical requirement in analogue days that quality was lost in the edit process, but this is (essentially) not the case today, but the mindset of the broadcasters is still in this analogue world - they (incl. the BBC) need to get up to date!
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#54 Slightly OT, but Sky1's 'The Take' was filmed on Red One cameras and the PQ was absolutely stunning. It's programmes like that make Sky HD head and shoulders above BBC HD. There are too many 'just OK PQ' HD dramas on BBC HD.
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#55. derek500 wrote:
"There are too many 'just OK PQ' HD dramas on BBC HD. "
The reason for this is the same as the big film studios being essentially warehouses of heavy, huge (and old) iron with accountants (quite rightly) insisting that they must actually use the less optimal technological solutions if and unless they are not already fully depreciated. The BBC is the same - Resources needs to use the equipment it already has. This is also why HD 'has' to be deployed - like it or not!
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It is good to see another blog Danielle and some of the new content mentioned looks good and you know how we are all waiting for Top Gear to be in HD. Lets hope that F1 productions see sense and release a HD feed so that the BBC can show the sport in even better light.
I do hope that you take viewers complaints seriously with regards to picture quality as it is not just a small minority now who are complaining and is getting more widespread coverage with an article in my local paper about HDTV and quotes from local Sony & Panasonic dealer saying how customers should get Sky if want HD as BBC quality has been reduced and how he used to demo with BBC HD but no longer
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I’d like to add my name to those complaining about the BBC HD PQ since August.
I invested a significant sum in a flatscreen TV and Freesat PVR in order to watch HD, and whereas the pictures once had a WOW factor, I now find that I usually have to look for the BBC HD dog to know whether I am watching an HD channel !
To say that I am furious is putting it mildly.
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I note that you say "We know that programmes work best for you when we show them at the same time as the standard definition channels"
This coming Sunday (8th) we have the next set of programmes in the excellent "History of Scotland" series. This is produced in HD, and the earlier episodes were all transmitted on the BBC HD channel. But they are not being shown on BBC HD. In fact, I can't find them on the BBC HD schedule at all.
Why is Scotland treated differently when it comes to BBC HD content?
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@paul_geaton
You raised the question over wether it would be better to transmit SD at the bit rates the BBC now is using for HD. It is true that for every bitrate there is an optimal resolution to give the best perceived visual quality. It is worth looking at ITV West Country which is transmitting 704x576 pixels at between 5380 and 9529 Mb/s with an average of 7083 Mb/s with mpeg4. The reason ITV did this was because it wanted to use it as a feed for one of its analogue transmitters. There are very tight quality standards for Analogue television and so it could not use the usual low bitrate digital signal. So this gives us some idea of what a higher bitrate SD would give. My guess is that the optimum resolution for 9 Mb/s Mpeg4/avc would be about 1280x720 25 fps. Unfortunatly this is not an EBU standard but it would result in less visual artifacts.
There is another aspect to this disaster I have not mentioned and that is 3D television. 3D television is very sensitive to artifacts. The reason is that the artifacts would be different in each eye and this would make viewing very painful. Unless the BBC find more bandwidth 3D will be a no go area for them. Sky does not view envisage 3D as a norm for television but just reserved for special programs.
The choice that Paul puts forward is a difficult one We are already seeing retailers pushing Sky for HD and the sales figures are prooving them right. The BBC HD viewing figures are actually dropping and so it is going to be more difficult for the BBC to justify spending money on HD. Freeview HD will probably push Sky sales even higher particularly if retailers demonstrate them side by side.
One of my main concerns is the protected rights that the BBC enjoys. As I understand it BBC and ITV will share the world cup so this means we will be forced into watching it in poor quality HD. I believe that the protected rights rules should alow other quality broadcasters to simulcast these events.
As for POV I watched it yesterday and I found it was very superficial so I don't expect anything from this. I expect Danielle will say everything is wonderful but it may make some people to think twice before going the Freesat HD way.
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@ derek500 Re post 9
May I post the 'script' of my POV contribution:
"Last week Criminal Justice received praise for its cinematography. For BBCHD viewers this was ruined by the recent 40% bitrate reduction and new encoders losing the directors vision under a veil of poor encoding.
Currently programming such as natural history that had been spectacular is now just good, the good average and the challenging mediocre.
BBCHD is mandated to match or exceed industry standards, it is visibly failing in that duty"
I was minded not to hang a complaint on one particular programme but used the praise from the previous week to illustrate the problem with BBCHD in general. And for Ms Naglers information as a photographer I totally got the 'look' of that show, and have subsequently been in contact with the production house that graded it. So please Danielle don't be inferring my complaint was due to the colour grading.
It is in the channels inability to render that directors /producers intent in an acceptable manner in the case of many high profile dramas that problems lie. Macro-blocking and bad movement prediction in low light scenes was yet again apparent in Garrows Law last night for example.
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@60 "My guess is that the optimum resolution for 9 Mb/s Mpeg4/avc would be about 1280x720 25 fps. Unfortunatly this is not an EBU standard but it would result in less visual artifacts."
I disagree that it would result in less vissual artefacts. If all the BBC channels were at 1280x720p25 then every BBC broadcast would be juddery, jerky and have strobing artefacts, and the BBC would get loads of complaints, probably especially from sports fans, but also from people who like any programme genre but don't want a picture that strobes, judders, and has bad motion resolution. Also for many programs with less motion they'd probably be better off with full HD (1920x1080).
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Having invested more than £300 of my children's inheritance (makes me sound as if I'm on Dragon's Den!) in Freesat kit, I sat back to be immersed in "exceptionally clear, crisp pictures with vivid colours and up to five times more detail than standard definition" (BBC's own words).
I then realised that I had made a monumental blunder, because this service obviously hasn't started yet.....
Seriously, I'd like to add my support to Paul's campaign for Option 2. Having lurked here, like so many others, for some time, I vainly hoped that the issue would have been resolved, but all there is is a BBC wall of silence, with an astonishing display of arrogance in the refusal to acknowledge the existence of a problem.
The number of times that I've heard "Is this supposed to be HD?"
Looks like I'll need to buy BluRay if I want HD, as I would feel like a traitor by giving money to Sky.
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The F1 coverage on the bbc has been fantastic and i was wondering are the bbc going to broadcast the whole 2010 Formula One season in hd. ?
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Scheduling Update re The Radio Times Website.
Sunday 15th November
BBC 1 6.00 Countryfile BBC HD 6.00 (Life Repeat)
BBC1 7.00 Doctor Who BBCHD Countryfile
BBC2 9.00 Top Gear BBCHD Garrows Law
What an absolute mess do you try your best to annoy people, Danielle?
To say that I am furious is putting it mildly. What is the point of producing Doctor Who and Top Gear in HD if you dont simulcast and cant even be bothered to show them on the same night.
Will The Open 2010 be simulcast I wonder or be shown 3 days later when we know the result.
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So you modded two of my comments that said woof.(33 & 34)
The third made reference to the dog, you neutered the point of third post by removing the other two.
The woofs were in the top left hand corner of each post...... get it?
You know like the BBC DOG.
Do you look before you leap in to moderate posts?
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Re Paul Option 2 please.
It is purely Arrogant and Patronising to do a blog and claim there is no problem with PQ. There is a problem please just be honest and admit it. There are noise problems, artefact problems ( HD should have no artefacts) and movement problems.
I recently shot some home video on my HD camcorder at 4.20 in the evening in poor dusk time light of my daughter playing on a swing in a playground. It was perfectly clear, no noise plenty of depth, sharp colours and focus, things that are sadly lacking on most of the BBCHD transmissions.
How are Andy & Danielle watching programs I wonder are they at home watching the final transmitted picture via satellite or a studio feed.
I am coming to the conclusion that the only way to get proper HD is to pay SKY a very sad state of affairs.
Hang your head in Shame Danielle.
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#53: Regarding BBC HD suddenly not being available on computer-based 'home theatre' systems, I think there might be an important issue of principle here. When did it become part of the BBC's mandate to exclusively support proprietary standards rather than internationally agreed open ones for image and sound reception? Is this even within the terms of the broadcasting licence? Or is that not what is going on here?
A pointer in the right direction from the BBC or anyone else to this genuine question would be appreciated. I know there are efforts being made to close the freeview epg, and they haven't even gone through yet, but this seems an issue of a different order.
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Re post 52 Nick
My comment about Defying Gravity was trying to bring saome humour to this blog. What a serious person you are.
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@IanMax1
Actually the BBC claim that it is "up to five times more detail than standard definition" is a lie. The BBC transmits 1440x1080 and standard definition is 720x576 and so that is only 3.75 times but that does not take into account the loss of detail caused by the new encoder.
If you want HD blu-ray will give you the highest quality pictures and sound. I don't know why you should feel a traitor for going to Sky. Without Sky we probably would not have any HD broadcasting in the UK.
@HD1080
Sorry I should have said 1280x720 interlaced 25 frames per second. My point was that the BBC should reduce the resolution to suit the bitrate.
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They could change to a different format depending on how difficult to compress a particular programme was at a particular bitrate.
eg. A talk show or news programme at a low bitrate might look best at 1920x1080 (even 1920x1080p50).
Football or something else that was difficult to compress with a low bitrate might look better broadcast at 720p50.
Or they could increase bitrates so all programmes would look good, including at 1920x1080/50i or p.
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My HD camcorders generated 24Mbps 1920 x 1080 50i or 24p AVCHD Most of the 'professional' HDV cameras generate 24Mbps 1920x1080 50i. So in theory my cameras is quite a bit better as AVCHD is a more efficient compression technique than HDV.
Why are the broadcasters kidding us by transmission low resolution HD (less than 1980x1080) when they record in a higher resolution? This transcription process to an inferior HD resolution generates the artefacts that many posters complain about.
(I have some little experience in this: I do use a tripod or so and have jibs and a dolly and rails and a steadicam and multi-camera when required, but I seldom use them - bit much for domestic use these days but apart from a crane and aerial shots I can do almost anything that so called professionals can and I have a suitable edit workstation and can use it - Oh, and boom and radio mikes and access to professionally written original music when needed and when not I am a bit of dab hand at manipulating midi files and transcribing the parts myself. I do like a proper script and storyboard before starting. The 'talent' and crew (and I) do not get paid much - more likely to be a free meal or so! I hate the noise of their rumbling stomachs! I have even used a foley artist in the past. And I have some lights too..., but I do not have a sound stage and that is the difference! I even started shooting 16mm film!)
Now, the point of all this is that almost anybody capable of organising a day out at the races can make television these days so why is so much of it so expensive and also so poor and repeated so many times? It is only story telling after all. The pictures are still better on radio!
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#65 The advance BBCHD schedule is often wrong.
Countryfile, Doctor Who, Antiques Roadshow and Garrow's Law will no doubt be simulcast and Top Gear will get the 10pm slot.
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@ 67, "How are Andy & Danielle watching programs I wonder are they at home watching the final transmitted picture via satellite or a studio feed."
The question now has to be how are these people still in a job at BBC HD??
I think both Andy and Danielle know the quality is a disgrace, they just don't seem allowed to admit it.
Not only is the HD channel awful, but the SD channels are getting gradually worse. BBC viewers are just getting treated like dirt and are in a total loose loose situation. But what do BBC managers care, they get paid no matter what.
I actually feel sorry for Danielle because I think she thought if she ignores the issue we would go away. WRONG!!!!!!!
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#65 "Scheduling Update re The Radio Times Website....What an absolute mess do you try your best to annoy people, Danielle?"
#73 "The advance BBCHD schedule is often wrong"
My question to Danielle on this issue is why is the advance BBC HD schedule so often wrong? In this particular instance she's known since at least 22 Sep that she planned to show Top Gear in HD on 15 Nov, she told us so herself.
And, we can see that she's hardly fully committed to solving just the PQ issues, she's told us that too. So, along with all the other Head of HD duties that keep her busy, can't she check these advance schedules herself just to make sure that her staff aren't letting the side down and giving us duff information?
Or, is that not the case at all. Might it actually be correct in the Radio Times. Perhaps TG is not actually going to be shown at all that evening on HD, either Simulcast or at 2200. Perhaps I was right when I predicted exactly that scenario here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/09/top_gear_on_bbc_hd_from_novemb.html#P87388652
Danielle, you saw the phenomenal response you got to your Blog about TG. You know we're all looking forward to it. You owe us a comment, right here, right now, telling us the truth. When is TG actually going to be on in HD, date and time. And if the answer is as a Simulcast with the BBC2 transmission on 15 Nov, then explain please why the Radio Times are getting something so fundamental wrong with only 2 weeks to go!
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"I've launched some further work around this - not because I believe there is a problem, but because I want to make sure there is not"
It's not going to be a fair investigation if you've already made your mind up. Perhaps it should be conducted independantly.
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@48
Paul, your two options are somewhat simplistic extremes. Especially when you play them out how most things tend to work in most work environments.
1) Wait for the users to stop complaning - of which all but the most vocal minority will.
2) Try to persuade Upper Management, Finance, etc to change their minds. Which they very rarely do.
Now obviously #2 is the preferred option, quality wise.
Problem is, you're combined two options each of which would be both an improvement and a challenge. There are obviously issues with simulcasting stuff. They seem to have their hands tied on when they can broadcast vertain things (rights/restrictions that I fully disgree with, but that TV has to work with)
And trying to get them to insist on both more freedom of scheduling/simulcasting at the same time as upping the bitrate... well, that'd be a near-impossible sell.
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Radio Times website now showing Doctor Who on BBC HD at 7pm followed by DW Cofidential.
Why can't they get it right first time!
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#75 I would be surprised and annoyed if Garrow's Law was bumped out of its simulcast slot for Top gear. I'm sure TG will get the simulcast slot from November 29th, unless Garrow is replaced by another BBC1 programme in HD.
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Into The Storm:
Great cinematography, subtle colour grading, maybe not the very sharpest of images but rich in detail, and a significant lack of all the macro blocking issues in low light scenes that have plagued other recent dramas. There was a scene on the roof during an air raid that would have gone to pieces normally of late.
I presume this is because of its film based content?
If all drama looked like this there would be much less to make complaints about.
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In reply to TiggsPanther
1) Wait for the users to stop complaning - of which all but the most vocal minority will.
Yes there will be a turnover in complainers but remember the number of HD viewers is increasing. When they realise how poor BBC HD is they will join the complainers. If you look at this blog there are quite a few new names joining over the last few weeks. HD picture quality has been the number one blog for months. The BBC has a policy of self denial which is antagonizing alot of licence payers.
2) Try to persuade Upper Management, Finance, etc to change their minds. Which they very rarely do.
Well the real killer here is viewing figures. Danielle takes these much more seriously than peoples complaints and she reads them every day after all her job depends on them. Senior management will start to ask questions as to why the BBC HD viewing figures are decreasing when the market is increasing.
Watched Garrow's Law last night and I found to to be about the same quality as some of my DVD's.
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# 81 To be fair, the latest BARB reach figures are pretty good. w/e 18/10 1,169,000 viewers over the week. Same period last year only 432,000.
Top rated show we/e 18/10, 'Life' 251,000. SDC 153,000.
Last year. w/e 09/11 (first week tops 10's available, SDC top with 96,000.
But it still means only about one in five people who can receive BBC HD watch at least once a week.
I noticed a 'green button' on BBC1 via Sky for Jimmy's Food Factory. I pressed it, but only gave me the option to record the BBC1 version, not the HD one.
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wednesday83 - another warning from me to cool it please.
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#78. Grafix wrote:
'Radio Times website now showing Doctor Who on BBC HD at 7pm followed by DW Cofidential. Why can't they get it right first time!'
This might have been due to the fact they have been keeping the transmission date of the Doctor Who special 'Waters of Mars' very quiet and have only just announced it.
Cheers, daveac
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My first post here. I only hope that the picture quality has improved vastly by the time Doctor Who broadcasts, I've been waiting for it to broadcast for ages now . .
I agree that the picture quality in BBC HD has dropped vastly since the change in encoders etc, as some put it the 'wow' factor has definately disappeared, and I do find myself wondering if it is actually the HD channel I am watching sometimes. For me I noticed a big difference in the picture from the first broadcast of Torchwood during the summer and a repeat after the change in decoders, there was a vast difference the picture was not nearly so clear or vivid.
I too have been reading the blog comments for sometime, and yes I also feel the complaints are being ignored or at least the drop in the picture quality not being acknowledged, so I felt I had to register and have my say.
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Re Doctor Who and Torchwood.
A cynical friend of mine has suggested that the excellent quality of Torchwood when first broadcast and recorded on many peoples STBs would have reduced sales of dvds and blurays. He expects Waters of Mars to be poorer quality picture-wise and sees the recent reduction of quality as a form of 'Soft DRM' to fuel sales of discs by BBC Worldwide and other rights holders.
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@86 I doubt it's to increase sales of Blu-ray for BBC Worldwide and other rights holders. The most watched programmes on BBC HD are not available on Blu-ray. See:
http://www.digitalproductionme.com/article-1452-hd_not_just_about_sport_and_film_bbc/
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I would love to see spooks in HD.
I think its a great entertaining drama and was disappointed that the latest series doesn't appear to be in HD.
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#80
Into the Storm was shot on 35mm. Excellent HD transfer with vivid colours and good detail and no problems with dark backgrounds.
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#88 Spooks is shot in super 16mm, a format that the BBC won't transfer to HD.
Incidentally, next week's stripped weekday 9pm drama on ITV HD, Collision, was shot on 16mm as I believe is Doc Martin. ITV have a different policy. Doc Martin is certainly lacking, but still a lot better than SD.
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I don't expect this sort "spin" out of the head of BBC HD.
Its broken fix it!
I have given up on switching over to BBC HD from BBC SD.
BBC HD has just gone down hill in the last few months.
I am not interested in bitrates and encoders I just expect the BBC to get it right.
Maybe its time for a strong investigating journalist to do a "Whats happened to BBC HD"
But put it on SD or else I will miss it!
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@ Nick Reynolds, Can you please tell me how I can complain about Danielles blog??
This post is HUGELY OFFENSIVE to BBC HD viewers and as you seem to not like me making negative posts about the head of the channel who has posted this, maybe you could explain how to complain about the blog. Just reading some of the comments in the blog make me want to vomit.
Also as well just watching Athletico Madrid vs Chelsea on Sky Sports HD3 and this picture is excellent - This is how to produce HD foootball. BBC HD take note.
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Above, @dgbrennan recommends "when it's broken fix it". I concur, and I'm very glad to see that you've already taken swift action to fix the Radio Times advance schedules for the evening of 15 Nov, as I requested at #75.
Because you have done so, and so quickly, I'll forgive you Danielle, for not admitting to, nor apologising for, the earlier wrong schedule by way of a comment here.
And, of course, I'm also pleased to be proved wrong about a delayed start for HD showings of TG.
Would you do the same with the PQ now please, i.e. quietly and swiftly return it back to previous levels? I'm just about to turn on Ray Mears on BBC HD, where I'm hoping to find some stunning pictures.
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#92, wednesday83, chill please we don't want to see you banned from airing your highly emotional views here! Just complain to Danielle in an email sent directly to her. BBC email adresses always end in BBC dot CO dot UK and have the first and last names separated by a dot. If you're not happy with her response you can take it up with the BBC Trust. Scoobie regularly posted details of how to do that in the PQ Blog.
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Thanks Everyone for all the comments and updates on my schedule post No 65
The Schedule now looks like this for Sunday 15th November
6-7 Countryfile (also BBC1)
7-8 Doctor Who (also BBC1)
8-9 Doctor Who Confidential (Also BBC3)
9-10 Top Gear (also BBC2)
4 Simulcasts in a Row, a record I think and throw in
3-4.30 BBC Switch Live ( also BBC1) and we have 5 simulcasts in one day !!!
9/10 Danielle, you would have got 10/10 if you had come on here and apologised for the error and directed us to the new schedule.
Do you think our posts made the difference. Perhaps we can get 'The Lady who is not for turning' to turn on Picture Quality.
Roll on the 15th November.
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Sky boxes have to ability to change the output definition. As a trial I set mine to 576 lines and watched Garrow's Law and guess what it was not possible to see any difference to 1080i. You don't suppose the BBC made this in SD and just upscaled it. They could save alot of money by doing this. They wouldn't do something like that would they?
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I dont think we should get too excited about top gear in HD just yet. Unless BBC HD team have a change of policy and aggree to up the bandwith, then its probably going to be a big let down.....
Come on Danielle , you know you want to up the quality lol.
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"@ 96, You don't suppose the BBC made this in SD and just upscaled it. They could save alot of money by doing this. They wouldn't do something like that would they?"
Well the Electric proms certainly appeared to be an upscale so I wouldnt put it past them.
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#95 What's happened to episode three of Garrow's Law, which is currently simulcast in the 9pm Sunday slot?
Digiguide still has it at 9pm.
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For a friend, please see my FOI webpage (http://www.zen97962.zen.co.uk/) for some graphics he's produced on Bit-rates. Credit too to his source at http://www.LinowSat.de/ (thanks @LinowSat for your site which even Andy Q finds "interesting").
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#99, derek500, Danielle fixed it for us to have TG simulcast on 15 Nov, as she'd previously implied (promised). Unforunately for you, she must've shifted Garrow's Law to 2200 to achieve that (or that's where its at now according to Radio Times). I guess she'll now have to bang some more heads together to make sure Digiguide is telling the same story.
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@100 http://www.zen97962.zen.co.uk/downloads/BBC_HD_bitrate_cuts_Powerpoint_2003.pdf
Says "BBC HD Europe and Sky HD transmit in 1920x1080 - so called "Full HD 1080p" - are they really transmitting in 1080p? 1080p25 or 1080p50? or should it say 1080i25?
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Hi Danielle,
Thank you for providing us with details of your in-tray. I'm sure it is an topical, interesting and enjoyable job albeit with many 'challenges'.
I hope you don't put too much weight on the 'overnight's', for I feel that the BBC ought not to be going for too much populist material in terms of content. One thing the corporation was good at, was taking a risk on content.
I suspect your heart sinks a little whilst perusing these blogs, although I have the impression you are well aware of the major issues. BBC white papers are oft quoted in defence of positions, so is there a case for a white paper detailing the various factors involved in coding (including the dreaded bit rate) in the light of operational experience?
I'm sure that you'll want to provide a wide range of programmes, not only in content but also in look and 'feel'. The recent production of Emma looked good, although, in my view, californicated by revealing the plot up front and rendered a theme tune more appropriate to 'Murder She Wrote'...But I digress.
Motion portrayal is an issue that I feel strongly about. I realise the imminent obsolescence of interlace is at hand, but the progressive technology that is deemed to be an appropriate replacement (1080P50) isn't yet available. The fallback to 25Hz is a retrograde step.
This should be taken into the general thrust of most people's comments here. The positive intention is likely that they wish the BBC to provide reference material against which, other broadcasters will be judged. It appears sometimes, that 'good enough' or, cynically, what we can get away with, is the new standard. (Private Eye please note).
I look forward to your more posts from behind the lens soon.
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What really beggars belief is that the B in BBC stands for British, yet the British BBC HD channel and its viewers are treated like utter rubbish with second rate quality whilst BBC HD in other European countries gets a higher resolution and a higher bit rate. It stinks, absolutely stinks.
I really just hope that more and more viewers turn off BBC HD.
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@103. The OB truck that the BBC has already used is already capable of 1080p50, so are the cameras:
http://www.ibeweb.com/ibe-news/sis-live-unveils-latest-ob7-truck
"The 16-camera truck is being used for the first time by BBC Sport"
"OB 7 and OB 3 are completely HD throughout and 3G capable, and they can both handle 1080i/50 pictures as well as being future-proofed for 1080P/50 for progressive transmissions".
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The fact that BBC Europe HD get better picture quality than the licence payers in the UK is apawling. I realy do feel that the BBC is taking us for a ride.
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@HD1080
I produced powerpoint slides.
http://www.zen97962.zen.co.uk/downloads/BBC_HD_bitrate_cuts_Powerpoint_2003.pdf
Good point re the "p" for progressive mode. We'll remove the p and update the slides soon as I'm not sure of the answer without checking.
The intention of that slide was to point out the huge difference in screen resolutions, not so much the difference in i vs p modes.
Off hand, I can't remember who is running at i50 i25 or p50.
If anyone can remember which services are running in P please post here!
thanks.
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HD1080, #102, I think you're probably right. I know that you know far more about the technical side of it than me. I can't amend the document though as it was provided by a friend, and posted on the web by another. At least you've corrected it here, and so thanks for that.
Danielle, I think you and the BBC HD team had a good day on Tue 3 Nov. Firstly, you fixed the mess of advance scheduling information in the Radio Times and also confirmed that Top Gear will be shown in HD (well pseudo HD as wednesday83 reminds us at #97).
Secondly, and I'm particularly pleased about this, you gave us a cracking evening's entertainment - thanks. Some great programmes (post 2000), which I couldn't have chosen better myself. What a shame that they all suffered from a distinct lack of picture resolution. Please keep up providing such good content Danielle. But, on the subject of content, just another bid for that 20% of Sport and Films which we don't ever seem to get.
Now, if only you could match up such good programmes with transmission of real High Definition quality then your BARB ratings might really soar. Imagine too, if you persuade FOM to let you show F1 in HD next season, and then do so at the highest possible PQ, what a sizeable chunk of the 6 million, or so, F1 viewers you'd win over in HD capable homes for every GP. And then, all those who aren't "HD Ready" would actually be rushing out in their droves to become so.
I make that point, albeit that I'm 100% in agreement with Squegg when he warns against you being too concerned about viewing figures - I'd hate for the channel to be all about Hole in the Wall, or Strictly Come Dancing - and god forbid we ever have Eastenders on the channel (just a personal view).
@Squegg, in #103 you mentioned the hilarious, satirical and current affairs magazine Private Eye, so I wondered, will I be reading all about the BBC's High Definition Picture Quality debacle in its next edition?
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wednesday83 - i have repeatedly warned you to keep your comments civil and within the house rules. Other people in this thread who feel as strongly as you do seem able to do this. Personal abuse of Andy and Danielle breaks the house rules and will be removed. If you wish to complain about the content of Danielle's post use the BBC complaints website.
egg on a stilt - I know you were trying to be funny with your DOG joke but in my view it was disruptive and therefore broke the house rules.
HDFan_428 - although this thread is pretty broad in terms of subject matter proprietory standards are probably off topic. But you may be interested in these earlier posts from Danielle and Graham Plumb.
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It will be interesting to see the BARB figures for Doctor Who and Top Gear. With roughly 10% of households now having access to BBC HD, you would think that they could get that near to 10% would be watching in HD. But they don't.
SDC gets about 8 million in SD but nowhere near 800,000 on HD - only about 150,000. So only one in five BBC HD enabled are watching in HD.
Life does much better. 6.5m SD to 251,000 HD. So its HD share is roughly 40%.
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@108 Paul,
You may recall that Private Eye runs the occasional column inch on words or phrases that are overused. Recently the phrase has been: 'x is the new y' - hence my comments.
The mag recently ran a cartoon picturing a TV with a split screen; the letters CR displayed in SD and AP in HD!
Contemporary TV & media issues are covered in the column: Eye Tv. Who knows what might be covered in the near future?
(Continued 94GHz)
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@100 Which Eurosport HD is it? Is it the Sky hosted version? Do Sky use the same encoders as BBC HD?
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#108, document now amended by digitalscoobiedoo and posted on the webpage. Perhaps scoobie can also answer derek500's 2 questions at #112.
#111, Squegg, I'll be looking out with interest for a mention of this issue in Eye TV, alhough perhaps IH may be reluctant to bite the hand that feeds him. While I'm on the subject of HIGNFY though Danielle, isn't it time that that great programme got the HD treatment? Could you make that happen for us?
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Thanks for posting to the blog, lots of positive comments about programming, scheduling, navigation etc. which I think you're doing a good job of addressing, albeit not as quickly as everyone (including you I guess) would like. There's lots more stuff on BBCHD now, and coming soon, that I'd like to watch.
However, I was very sad to see the "not because I believe there is a problem, but because I want to make sure there is not" comment. PQ is the most important issue, and I don't understand how you can deny there is a problem when the same programmes now look worse than they did a year ago.
Some things are still worth watching on BBCHD for the enhanced picture and sound (eg Emma, Life, Natural World, Later) but a lot of the time it's not worth bothering any more. I suspect the programmes that still look good don't contain much challenging material (darker scenes, pans, fast movement) - I really hope TG is going to be worth it. Nearly everything I watch is via Sky+, and because HD programmes take up a lot more disk space, there has to be sufficient difference to record the HD rather than the SD version (unless there's another reason, like being able to watch Harper's Island without a DOG).
This is not just an issue for technically minded people, I don't care about which encoders are used or the bit rates, I just care about getting back to the stunning PQ that we used to have, however it's achieved.
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@SkyCaddie 95
More simulcasts are avaliable. The studios that make Question of Sport, University Challenge and Have I Got News For You are HD ready now. The studio for QI and the Graham Norton Show is set to go HD, perhaps in time for the Christmas or New Year special of QI.
While they are only studio based it would help break up the number of repeats on the channel and the extra cost wouldn't be too great. Currently when these shows go out no other new HD content is being shown.
Viewers can expect more studio based shows to go HD as TV Centre next year adds another studio in HD, whilst 2 more now have the ability to import HD equipment when needed, Eggheads is an example of that.
Flight of the Conchords currently on BBC4 at 10pm on Wednesdays could also be shown in HD as it was made in HD. There is no new programming which would get in the way of a simulcast. It would be great if BBC HD could source the HD copies to simply join season 1 as soon as possible though more realistically if BBC HD could show Season 2 in HD it would be good for viewers of the show.
The Rugby Union Autumn Internationals won't be shown in HD.
The only fixture so far that will go out in HD before the end of the year will be the Newcastle United v Middlesbrough match on Sunday the 20th of December at 1pm.
There is the chance to show the Darts and Snooker for fans of those sports in HD.
Next year will be a big year for HD Sport.
In January there is the Football League Cup semi finals the BBC has and coverage of the Australian Open.
February sees The Winter Olympics and the start of the 6 nations. As French and Italian broadcasters now operate in HD the BBC could source HD equipment locally to provide HD coverage to BBC HD and French and Italian viewers. The BBC could provide HD coverage from Ireland for all these viewers.
February also sees the Football League Cup final.
March will see more more 6 nations. It would be good if the new F1 season would also be in BBC HD.
There will be also continued coverage of Championship football.
Later on in the year The Open golf will join BBC HD coverage along with the 2010 World Cup and The Commonwealth games.
There is the chance to be able to show French Open Tennis coverage as well before coverage of Wimbledon starts.
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Danielle, following on from another excellent post by @Andrew.... (how does he know all this info?), if it's recored in an HD studio then please get Have I got News for You on in HD ASAP, whyever wouldn't you?
Also, he says Flight of the Conchords was recorded in HD. So why only transmit it in SD? Zero production costs for you surely, just simulcat it? And for those who haven't seen it, check it out (it's really funny).
And what a blow about not getting the Autumn Rugby Internationals in HD. I know you have to "weigh each sporting event on its own merits", but you've got to put at least some sport on the HD channel to even approach your annual 20% quota and I'd have thought these games would've been the ideal candidate for that.
And another thing, don't your OB teams need practice before 2012, or are you completely confident that they will pitch up at the Olympics on the day and do everything perfectly having only done a few soccer matches, and Wimbeldon, in the build-up (oh, and the Open, thanks for listening on that one!)?
And finally, I concur with @sipasblog too, there's really absolutely no point in having a great selection of programmes available on BBC HD if it's not really transmitted in a resolution that "average" people expect from HD. So please, hurry that "work" along and get things sorted with our Pictures and, sorry to press you, but in the next 2 weeks please because I, along with over a million others who would be (I suspect - if only then know about it), am really looking forward to that HD Top Gear (and hopefully in 5.1 too?).
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re #109 from NickReynolds:
"HDFan_428 - although this thread is pretty broad in terms of subject matter proprietory standards are probably off topic. But you may be interested in these earlier posts from Danielle and Graham Plumb."
My post 68 was in fact responding to an earlier post, so hmmm. Anyway, I did request a pointer, so thanks, but I'm already aware of these posts and they do not answer the question I raised. (There is however a fantastic recent response (#111) to Danielle's post that I recommend to everyone. I fear the devil is already over the threshold, however, and is making himself a nice cup of tea.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/04/welcome_to_some_new_initials_d.html )
But OK, I'll try again over there and see what happens.
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#116 The BBC don't have any OB facilities now, they were sold to SIS in April 2008.
SIS work for other broadcasters apart from the BBC so are well practised.
A few days ago they won the contract from the Broadcasting Corp. of India to cover the Commonwealth Games in Delhi next year.
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BBC HD and 16mm. As we know it's against BBC HD's policy to transfer 16mm film to HD for broadcast. This has meant many of the BBC's top dramas e.g. Spooks, New Tricks, Merlin, Silent Witness etc. don't appear in HD.
IYV seem to have a different policy, with Doc Martin, Marple and next week's stripped weekday drama Collision among others being transferred into HD from 16mm film.
Personally, I don't see a problem with ITV's policy, as even though shows like Doc Martin aren't the absolute best HD, at least we get the chance to see a far better quality programme than the SD version.
Does anyone agree, or think that the BBC policy is best?
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If anybody wants to see what SIS Live can do with a proper HD outside broadcast have a look at ITV HD this evening as tehy provide all the ob facilities for ITV sports UK champions league coverage. Which will be more than likely be using the same units as on sun at Cardiff for the BBC just the picture will be broadcast at an acceptable level.
There is quite a lot of content that the BBC capture in HD but only broadcast in SD for whatever reason BBC Question time and the Big questions on Sun am are both produced in HD by Arqiva using ob7 unit but yet the BBC choose to just broadcast it in SD.
It will be interesting to see if Question of sport goes HD once Sky 1s new HD sport panel game starts broadcasting in the new year. I think we can all understand that it does cost more to commision content in HD and the money available is not enough but they should broadcast things that are already in HD when they can.
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Danielle,
I presume the DOG currently showing on Waterloo Road is an error.
Can you remove it ASAP.
Thanks
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# Tonight's ITV HD match is in Lyons. I believe TF1 and Canal+ are the CL host broadcasters in France.
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Excellent post Andrew #115
I have long suspected programmes are being made/recorded in HD and yet not being shown in HD. This is so stupid.
Post 102 excellent information.It is really annoying to know we have the lowest resolution and lowest bit rate.
Some questions Andy
1. Are the programmes stated recorded in HD?
2. Are any other programs made/recorded in HD yet not shown on the channel?
3. Are the bit rates and resoultions stated for BBCHD and BBCHD Europe correct and why are British rates lower than Europe?
P.S. who let the dogs out on Waterloo Road tonight, oh dear forgot humour is not allowed on this blog that will be a telling off fron Nick.
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Danielle
Surely what brings viewers to the HD channel is the wow factor of seeing something special.Im sure there are a lot like me who are not too fussed (within reason) of what the program is, its the spectacle of seeing it in HD. Im no techie but can easily see how the pq has droppped off. Waterloo road this evening was a case in point being only slightly better than the sd version. People wont jump to HD if they see little difference.
Danielle, now with so many pq comments in this post you could at least make some comment regarding your thoughts?
Thanks from all of us in advance.
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@ SkyCaddie...
I can think of one obvious one and that was both series of Life on Mars; which was filmed in HD and available on BluRay, yet never shown on the BBC HD channel (as far as I know).
Was Stephen Fry's adventures in America shown on the BBC HD channel either, I cannot remember it being shown, but I maybe wrong there...
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On a general note, nice to see Danielle writing another blog and it was interesting to see what she had to say. However, the lack of a response on the PQ issue is extremely unfortunate.
It is evident that management, either at head of BBC Vision level or at HD level or both, do not give two hoots what us, the licence payer think.
Here was a golden opportunity for Danielle to come out, with her comments to either placate the situation as best as possible, acknowledge and accept what people think - especially as lot of facts such as bitrate information dipping is in the public domain - eat a bit of humble pie and do something about it.
Instead, to say only further work is being undertaken, but "not because I believe there is a problem", is a staggering thing to say. Acknowledgement that there clearly is a problem, would be a start; now over 1,000 posts in a couple of blogs, would be contrary to that suggestion.
Why should anyone invest in anything HD relation when we are getting palmed off with a poor relation of what is supposed to be the pinnicle of broadcasting that is availible in this country? It's like going into a supermarket, buying a bag of Starburst and finding there is only one in it and it isn't even a strawberry one.
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@ Andrew Knight
I completely agree; it is a big year of sport coming up. Darts would actually be a great sport to see in HD; anyone who has seen the coverage of the PDC on Sky, would confirm that. Might even see myself in the crowd..I digress...
Even snooker wouldn't be too bad...the World Series of Snooker is shown on Eurosport HD and that isn't bad; even Jimmy White has been playing quite well in that and showing some form.
The Championship football has been disappointing....to much blurred movement and it should be alot crisper, like ESPN/Sky standards. Comparing like for like against BBC is like comparing chalk and cheese.
The French Open was shown in HD on Eurosport HD, so I'm not sure if there is anything related to the rights on that front..but surely they could show a different match on another court if possible; like Eurosport do with Sky Sports with the US Open, if the feeds are there.
Andrew, do you know if the 20% is based on a January-December, yearly basis, or on a financial year calendar (i.e. May-April)? The lack of sport shown on the HD channel this year, isn't down to the extended coverage of the Olympics last year is it? Maybe there is a correlation on this front...am only guessing.
On another note, to Andy Q, where is your blog which you have been working on for a wee while...? I'm sure I'm not the only one looking forward to seeing your comments. Cheers.
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#127, Paul, the licence says:
"BBC HD should ensure that:
• first run showings of sport and acquired feature films constitute less than 20% of output each year, except on occasions of major sporting events."
The absence of the word financial, next to the word year, suggests to me it's referring to the period Jan to Dec.
I can only imagine from the almost total absence of sport and films on BBC HD this year so far, that we're going to have an absolutely stupendous December - otherwise I guess it's a case of "use it or lose it".
Or has Danielle negotiated a clause with the Trust (not yet in the public domain) allowing her to carry 2009's sport and films over into 2010 so that we can get all next year's F1 in HD, as well as the 6-Nations, Wimbledon and the Open and also have a "Blockbuster" night every Friday?
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@ paul_billo Life on Mars was NOT filmed in HD!! It was filmed with super 16mm film. As you know (if you've read these blogs) it's the BBC's policy not to transfer 16mm to HD.
The fact that it's been converted to HD for Blu-Ray and/or US broadcast is neither hear nor there.
As I said in an earlier post, ITV don't have that policy and they are happy to use 16mm for HD.
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Darts and snooker are both excellent in HD. Darts is especially good on Sky HD as they use 5.1 sound to really bring it alive.
However, as BBC have reduced mainstream coverage of both of these sports and rely on 'red button' for more comprehensive coverage, I can't see HD coverage being an option.
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Has anyone else tried submitting questions for Danielle Nagler on this Sunday's Points of View. All I get back is a reply stating "Points of View is currently off air but returns in the autumn and your comments will be considered for inclusion in the programme then"
My question for the POV interview this Sunday is:
I note that you say "We know that programmes work best for you when we show them at the same time as the standard definition channels"
This coming Sunday (8th) we have the next set of programmes in the excellent "History of Scotland" series. This is produced in HD, and the earlier episodes were all transmitted on the BBC HD channel. But they are not being shown on BBC HD. In fact, I can't find them on the BBC HD schedule at all.
Why is Scotland treated differently when it comes to BBC HD content?
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@129 Derek500
Muchos apologies Derek, I should have done more research on that front and apologise to all and sundry for creating confusion. Thanks for the info on that side of things, I take it back. Ignore my previous comment...
Nothing like the thud of the darts on the sisal fibres of the board in 5.1., I agree..ha ha ! ;-)
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@132 de nada.
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Latest BARB figures are in. BBC HD reach for w/e 25/10 an all time high of 1,238,000. But still only about one in five people with BBC HD are tuning in during the week.
Interestingly Sky say that the viewing share for their programmes in HD homes is about 15% higher than SD homes. Just shows what a bit (or more recently a lot), of on air promotion does. Unfortunately, people need to be reminded again and again.
Before most HD programmes now there is an announcement along the lines of "If you have an HD TV and a Sky+HD box, make sure you fully benefit from High Definition by switching to channel *** now"
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Can anyone tell me, is an Audio Dropout the thing that just happened on the Culture show, towards the end of the discussion on the Ashmolean, when the sound and video went about 1/4 second out of synch?
I've always been intrigued what they were, because when it was supposed to be happening frequently during SCD I never noticed anything wrong with the sound, albeit that I wasn't actually ever watching the screen.
Plus, has anyone else noticed that today, for the first time for weeks, a PQ Blog doesn't appear in the Topical posts box, below.
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Can anybody explain why quality is so variable?
The Restaurant looks very good tonight, Last weeks Waterloo Road looked good but last nights Waterloo Road was so so.
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#136, Good question; Jools last night was superb. Aerial shots from Ray Mears stunning, canoes etc. merely SD+. Andy? Are you out there? Is there encoder tweaking going on?
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Why when the BBC HD channel only offers around 7 hours non-childrens' scheduling per day, do we have to suffer the same program twice in one night? Example Thursday November 5th:
7pm-8pm The Culture Show
11pm-12 midnight The Culture Show
How can this be justified? The above is not an isolated incident, I have noticed this a lot recently.
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#138, Good point, they could have used up some of their permitted 20% of sport and films and given us a good Blockbuster instead.
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Encouraging reports from 137, but on 136 and Waterloo Road looking so-so: I have to agree. In fact, I think 'so-so' is the new 'poor'.
First, there was a picture collapse in last week's preview of the current episode, as documented by tagmclaren and myself in the previous PQ thread
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/09/picture_quality_on_hd_a_respon.html?page=2#comments --posts 860 and 886
Well, the full version of the scene was even worse. Here are three consecutive stills from a much longer sequence. The blocking is so huge and so rapidly changing it's difficult to see how the 'no problems here' policy line can retain any credibility. As usual, you have to click twice to get the full res version (not that it's needed to see the problems):
http://img690.imageshack.us/i/wrslide1.jpg/
http://img691.imageshack.us/i/wrslide2.jpg/
http://img29.imageshack.us/i/wrslide3.jpg/
You could argue that this was just an unfortunate mistake. It's amazing that it got through to being broadcast, but let's accept that explanation for now. However, the complaints about BBC HD having turned into SD+ don't hinge on a few difficult scenes but on what it looks like hour in, hour out. So how about this?
http://img32.imageshack.us/i/wr4f.jpg/
This is a scene with no panning, or motion, or dim lighting, or other reasons for it to be 'challenging'. In fact I tried to choose the best image out of the sequence, though it was pretty constant throughout.
It's a frame capture of an interlaced picture, so the jagged edges on the tables and and books aren't an issue. What is an issue, though, is the *dire* lack of detail in the image, as is evident in all the faces and, most obviously after that, the poster stuck on the end of the teacher's desk at bottom left.
Also there is posterisation on the front section of the first row of student desks, more or less bottom mid frame.
But after the lack of detail the most striking thing is the colour bleed. Amongst other things, the white collar of the student at the far right has a violet halo splotched over his purple jumper. The colour of the jumper of the girl nearest the window in the middle row also well oversteps its boundaries. All the faces are crudely coloured. The red labels on the drawers are blurred and stand out unnaturally. The teacher's head is green/yellow on the left hand side and violet/blue on the right. (This last one could be another error or a matter of the lighting; given the rest it's impossible to tell.)
It looks to me like this is replicating the inbuilt shortcomings of SD--low definition, low chroma resolution in relation to luma, plus (given UK bitrates) the digital artefacting HD is supposed to rid us of.
So I think this is one example of why people are saying the wow factor has gone, calling it SD+, and so on. If Andy Quested or anyone else would like to explain why, quibbles over technical terms aside, the above description is wrong I'd be glad to hear it. But to me this example shows there are issues well beyond the odd lighting failure.
Does Danielle Nagler still think there are no problems?
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First just to cover any issues that outside events can't be covered like Sports.
Most sports and other major outside events can be covered in HD by the BBC, the capacity exists whether its for Autumn Rugby Internationals, going to Ireland to bring 6 nations games in HD while working with French and Italian HD providers for HD from those stadiums. It could also bring the BDO darts event that takes place in several weeks. As most coverage takes place during the day it would be more friendly to BBC HD than the snooker, that would ideally require a red button HD stream so BBC HD can continue to show programming.
For events like the 6 nations from Ireland the BBC could just have a 'studio' on the sidelines or link back to the UK or just have a basic set-up in a studio room in the stadium.
The availability of outside equipment could help bring Formula One, Championship football, League Cup semi final and the final coverage, coverage of The Open Golf and various Rugby Union coverage the BBC has.
There is also the chance to bring the 6 nations and other events in 5.1 as most trucks now support Dolby E.
http://www.4rfv.co.uk/industrynews.asp?id=95166
http://www.sisob.tv/productionunits/truckspec.html
SIS who used to be BBC Outside broadcasts now have OB 7, OB 3, OB 12 and Unit 2, Unit 10 and Unit 12 for HD sport and other outside coverage right now. OB can send back to a studio elsewhere or to the VT unit on-site which are more comprehensive. OB means outside broadcast.
There is more here. http://broadcastengineering.com/mag/recording-on-location-0909/
Arqiva have 2 HD units. Unit 2/3 and 7.
http://www.arqiva.com/products-and-services/satellite-solutions/outside-broadcasts
Unit 7 would be ideal to provide coverage from Ireland for the 6 nations.
Arena have VT6. VT7 will be available next year.
It also has for outside broadcast OB12, OB 10, OB9, OB8 ,OB7.
OB 6 has the ability to swtich to HD.
http://www.arena-tv.com/900vttrucks.html
http://www.arena-tv.com/900obtrucks.html
There are other companies that provide such services as well.
The BBC could forgo a studio based unit and provide pitch side coverage or provide a wireless HD camera from a corporate box studio for the Autumn Internationals and Darts in order to keep costs down.
It could do the same from Ireland for 6 nations matches to keep costs down, though
A studio based set-up is more important for events like Wimbledon on a VT unit is required for such a large event with many courts to cover.
But SIS and these other companies also perform work for other broadcasters like ITV for its Champions League coverage.
@ paul_geaton 116
If you want to see the original information it is located here towards the bottom. All credit goes to the original author. It confirms 3 current HD studios, 1 to be upgraded, and 2 that can handle HD equipment being brought in.
http://www.tvstudiohistory.co.uk/tv centre history.htm#future
Here is the information on the two 'The London Studios' that have gone HD. This article suggests both studios are now already HD so Have I Got News For You, QI, and The Graham Norton Show and other BBC shows made in these 2 studios could go out on BBC HD now.
http://www.4rfv.co.uk/industrynews.asp?id=101098
There are two articles on the HD availability at the Manchester studios where University Challenge and other BBC shows are filmed.
http://www.4rfv.co.uk/industrynews.asp?id=76636
http://www.how-do.co.uk/north-west-media-news/north-west-broadcasting/itv-spends-a-quarter-of-a-million-upgrading-the-manchester-studios-200804182393/
Other studios like The Fountain Studios are available in HD.
http://www.ftv.co.uk/press/default2.aspx?Param1=32
And other studios around the UK continue to be upgraded to HD so more BBC content can be shown in HD.
Next year on BBC HD and other channels there should be a large increase in studio based shows.
@ derek500 119
The BBC policy of not using 16mm is best practice for the future. We have seen a spooks spin-off production made in HD so perhaps the next series will be in HD.
Working with third party producers on outside broadcasts is always going to be the most difficult part of work that BBC HD does as its down to costs within the company to allow a transition to HD.
The same is for OB trucks, new ones are being created but companies can't afford to replace equipment in one huge move.
But we are seeing more OB trucks and the major studios that the BBC uses are now HD or will in the next several months HD ready. 2 others at TV Centre can also import HD cameras on a one-off basis until they are upgraded.
Most TV studios are upgrading to HD as the last equipment cycle was many years ago as 16:9 came in. In fact the new TV Centre studio and some of the latest OB trucks will be able to handle 1080p/50 so seamless tranfer to blu-ray and other formats.
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@Paul_Billo
The BBC don't have to count one off major events in its 20% limit so even with The Winter Olympics, The World Cup and The Commonwealth games it could broadcast many more hours.
The BBC has joint rights with Eurosport for Australian and French Open Tennis so it could cover Andy Murray matches and the semi finals and final in HD.
Danielle mentions that BBC HD is looking to expand its hours so that leaves even more scope for sports to be shown, and some more films.
Perhaps in the future we will see.
7am-9am - Childrens.
1.45pm - Doctors. Perhaps after any new afternoon shows made like antiques shows.
3.30pm-5.30pm- Childrens content.
5.30-7pm - Light entertainment.
7pm Perhaps the One show in the future.
7.30pm - 1am. Evening shows.
Weekends.
6am-4pm- Any sport coverage available.
4pm-1am- Similar to current weekend coverage with less repeats.
As for BBC HD and a possible red button stream they need to be in 1980x1080.
Ideally one of the MPEG2 channels should go and then the bit-rate be allowed to float rather than be fixed so the picture quality improves.
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@Andrew Knight 141 "In fact the new TV Centre studio and some of the latest OB trucks will be able to handle 1080p/50 so seamless tranfer to blu-ray and other formats."
What do you mean by seamless transfer to Blu-ray from 1080p50? Do you mean they will convert it to 1080i/50 or do you mean next years Blu-ray players (3D capable) will be capable of 1080p50 2D?
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#141 Danielle has said they can do 5.1 but the extra cost has to be considered.
The host broadcasters do the Six Nations coverage. RTE don't do HD in Ireland. Only Sky Italia do HD in Italy. Are they host broadcaster?
Darts/Snooker don't get 'proper' coverage anymore, with lots of live stuff only on red button mixed with the 'live' broadcast showing recorded footage. Unless they go back to proper live coverage, it won't be in HD
As for Fountain, if Britain's most popular TV show, X Factor, can't be made in HD, surely that says more about the costs of production, rather than the facilities available?
As for 16mm, is there a policy of not making programmes in 16mm? The policy is not to convert 16mm to HD.
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@140
Some of the 'colour bleed' issues look to me like chromatic abberation caused by the lens, it looks like the lens is at a wide angle, in stills photography poor lenses can show this especially at the edges of the frame, the moreso at wide angles. Poor lenses can also be softer all across a frame. Plug ins can reduce chromatic aberration in stills but I don't know about motion plug ins.
However, as your other grabs show that's only a little bit of what is wrong with Waterloo Road, and the out of focus backgrounds still pulse and throb, just as the people behind the judges on SCD do. The movement in areas that should not be moving which are not the main focus of the scene stimulate peripheral vision which is there to alert us still stone age humans of potential danger lurking in the woods and can be very distracting and unsettling.
I watched HD programming ITVHD and CH4HD last night, chalk and cheese, no predatory animals lurking there, unless you count their DOGs.
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145: Yes, I almost mentioned chromatic aberration (ex amateur astronomer here) but I imagined the BBC wouldn't allow kit poor enough to suffer from such problems. I was stuck on the idea that the colour issues must all be digital rather than optical in nature. But of course you could well be right.
Frame caps clearly can't reproduce all the problems people are seeing. That's a good description of what I tend to think of as the fragility of the picture. But still, I hope that one gives some concrete reasons why there are so many complaints.
And of course our own DOG made an unwelcome appearance as well, though that's for another blog.
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Watched the Football on ITV HD on Wednesday, the picture quality was superb. Even with using approx 10.7 mb/s and fast motions it's impressive.There has got to be something fundamentaly wrong with the setup of the BBC HD encoders, as there is no consistency of quality as people have noticed. We are still waiting for an answer(or even live tests for the viewers)to confirm an increase upto 12mb/sec would improve the current mess.
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@HD_Fan428, you've done a fantastic job with all your pictures and screen grabs, which must have taken ages. I'm sure it will be well worth your time and effort though, if as fireyab9 suggested in his mega posts over on the PQ Blog journalists make use of them in an expose of the situation. Entirely topical such a story would be too, what with Danielle's promised appearance on Points of View this Sunday afternoon, and also before the promised launch of HD Freeview in just a month's time.
Andy and Danielle have had ages to properly answer our questions but have ducked and dived for weeks. I've witheld my own Trust complaint to Sir Michael in the hope that Andy's long promised Test results will shed some light, or the POV appearance from Danielle will provide a decent explanation. In the event that neither happens, then I sense that the time will be right to proceed with taking my (constructive) complaint to the Trust to coincide with the the launch of Freeview HD. Thanks for all the email support towards that effort, as well as the considerable help provided on these Blogs (@HD_Fan428 and @fireyab9 deserving of special mention).
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Well I expect that Danielle would argue that the Director chose low quality lenses for artistic effect. All those pretty rainbow effects.
Getting back to the boring subject of distribution codecs I have been looking at this EBU document a bit closer.
http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3328.pdf
The appendixies 1,2 and 3 give some methods for evaluation picture quality. In particular look at appendix 3 which gives the evaluation method used by D/HDC group for evaluating encoders. I have always wondered how the EBU came to recommend a minimum of 12 Mb/s for HDTV when we all know that is too far too low. Well all is revealed here.
There are 2 tests the first is concerned with showing that H264 encoders have a bit rate saving of at least 50% compared with MPEG2. The second is used to identify the H.264/AVC bitrate needed to achieve the same quality as with the MPEG-2 encoded anchor at 24 Mb/s. In other words an "expert" compairs the artifacts produced H264 and MPEG2 side by side and finds the bit rate for the H264 picture which has the same level of artifacts as the MPEG picture. It is using this method that the EBU came up with the 12 Mb/s recomendation.
As you can see there are many flaws with this method and it is suprising that a professional organization such as the EBU would use such a method. Firstly it makes the assumption that MPEG2 at 24 Mb/s gives an acceptable picture quality for HD. In fact the HDV video format used in many camcorders is MPEG2 at 25 Mb/s and that is not condered HD by the BBC. Secondly this is asking an "expert" to compare the MPEG2 and MPEG4 artifacts which may or may not be similar. I would sugest that is like comparing chalk with cheese and very unlikly to produce a meaning full result. So I think all the work that the EBU has been doing on encoder evaluation is useless as far as determining a suitable bitrate for broadcasting.
In a way the EBU does acknowlege that the picture quality they support for distribution is minimal in that they distinquish between "Mainstream HD" and "High End HD".
The best way I know of for evaluating picture quality is the TSCES method described in Appendix 2 uning an uncompressed picture as an upper anchor. Unfortunatly it is quite expensive as that it needs to be done with a large sample of people to get a statistically significant result. The reason for this is that different people have very different perception of quality.
Of cource another way of evaluating picture quality is to listen to the viewers.
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@ HD1080
I wouldn't know but the option would exist, it is being rolled out on OB/VT and studios so a standard is being set. Blu-ray could handle such storage.
BBC TV Centre has already handled a 3D recording with OB support.
http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/technology/sky-orders-twofour-to-shoot-noel-in-3d/5004682.article
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@trevorjharris
BBC HD might as well launch a red button HD stream as currently fixing the HD channel is wasting bandwidth on the transponder.
Although there is no confirmed news yet on whether a second red button HD stream will be launched for extended Olympic coverage and for other events. If that happened perhaps the bit-rates would be allowed to float freely.
Does the EBU have anything on the subject of fixed bit-rates?
Isn't broadcasting at 1980x1080 also a minimum standard.
@paul_geaton
Perhaps this should form a new section in any submission along with what is in my last post. There are so many outside broadcast services available costs for producing events in HD will be falling as more services become available.
It should be feasible to bring most sports in HD starting with the darts coverage. Snooker coverage would need a red button HD stream so it doesn't upset the schedules of BBC HD.
Here are some more companies with HD capabilities.
Visions has 5 HD trucks.
http://www.visions-ob.com/hd1.php
021tv has 3 OB trucks and 1 VT in HD.
http://www.021tv.com/specs.php
CTV has 6 OB Trucks and 1 VT truck.
http://www.ctvob.co.uk/index.php?pageID=169&dynID[169]=6&#
Telegenic offer 1 OB truck and 4 VT trucks.
http://www.telegenic.co.uk
There is certainly a large amount of competition in the outside broadcast market and most of these companies are adding more HD units.
More units and more competition should mean more sports being avaliable in HD from now onwards.
@ derek500
French and Italian OB companies could provide the BBC with HD equipment for 6 nations. French and Italian broadcasters of the 6 nations have HD channels.
The BBC would need to send an OB truck to Ireland as no Irish broadcaster broadcasts in HD but to keep costs down they could just provide a pitch-side studio like in Italy to keep costs down.
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@trevorjharris
It should read red button HD stream, or a second HD service including BBC HD.
Certainly with all this HD outside equipment and a red button HD stream to avoid schedule clashes the snooker could be brought in HD.
A red button stream could also bring a second court from Wimbledon.
Darts could fit onto BBC HD as they take place earlier in the day.
With all the available equipment events like next years Autumn Internationals should be in HD and events like The Grand National which currently aren't in HD.
Also if BBC HD hours are expanded it should make sure live sports take priority over repeats and that scheduling clashes with Stricly and other important shows try to be avoided so viewers don't miss out.
The current rescheduling of strictly for instance now would mean if the Autumn internationals were in HD they would have to cut to stricly as soon as the game finishes.
Weekends.
6am-1am- Any sport coverage available. Try to avoid clashes with shows like Strictly which lead to sports not being shown in HD to make way for important shows like Strictly.
4pm-1am- Similar to current weekend coverage with less repeats unless sports are available.
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#152 The bottom line is that the BBC could do every sport they have the rights to in HD if they wanted to, but they haven't the money, and in some cases like MOTD, the facilities to do it.
They have a limited budget and decisions, like for example not taking the HD feed for the Superbowl have been explained on BBC blogs as being cost driven.
It's not just the BBC. Even Sky who show the European Golf every week live in HD, do the highlights in SD/4:3 because of the lack of HD/16:9 facilities.
As the number of licence payers who can receive BBC HD increases, then no doubt the channel's budget can be increased.
As for the rugby, if the Italian and French home matches are broadcast in HD in their respective countries by their host broadcasters, then I would expect it to be broadcast in HD on the BBC.
It's not for the BBC to cover it themselves in HD if they are not the host broadcaster.
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#148: Thanks for the kind words, Paul. :)
I just came across this:
"There is quite a few technical people now involved with the formal complaints including the head of technology for one of the UKs leading HD OB companies as well as engineers from other broadcasters who claim that the BBC HD are operating outside of EBU guidelines.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/hd-tv-programmes/720572-bbc-hd-not-up-required-standard-37.html#post10722497
An interesting development if true! Can anyone confirm?
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@derek500
Since the BBC HD Sport blog in June it has become apparent that the number of OB companies operating in HD has increased heavily.
The 7 mentioned in earlier posts all have multiple OB and VT units to cover sport in HD and more are being made.
So has the number of TV studios for studio based shows. Some of which could show BBC shows in HD now like QI,Have I Got News For You and The Graham Norton show. There is at least one import on BBC4 called Flight of the Conchords which could be shown in HD as well.
Lack of HD studios back at the BBC isn't an issue for The Grand National or 6 nations from Ireland,Italy or France as most coverage is hosted outside rather than in a studio.
Studio coverage isn't an issue for the Autumn Internationals, Darts, Snooker, Formula One and many other sports the BBC could show in HD.
Most BBC sports don't link back to a studio at the BBC but simply hire out a room in the stadium or just perform the coverage outside like for Formula One and for The Grand National or 6 nations from Ireland,Italy and France.
It would make more financial sense though just to bring in HD equipment from an Italian or French OB provider for the 6 nations than use UK equipment. Though for Ireland games OB equipment would need to go over but again it doesn't need to be the most expensive unit as just enough to bring the game in HD and provide a pitch side studio would be enough.
People want the game or match in HD, if it means a reduction in studio presentation to keep costs down then it is welcome.
As for Football Focus, Inside Sport, Match Of The Day and The Football League Show and Rugby League show when the BBC moves in 2011 it should be able to bring these shows in HD. Right now most Premiership coverage is captured in HD, hopefully it will be rolled out to football league clubs and rugby league clubs.
BBC HD shouldn't use current subscribers to decide on HD coverage but future forecasts.
It is now available roughly in 11% of all UK homes.
Freeview HD is set to launch in the North East from Leeds to Sunderland with plans to expand it to major population centres including London and Glasgow before The World Cup.
http://www.freeview.co.uk/freeview/Resolutions/About-Products/Product-types/Will-high-definition-television-HDTV-be-available-on-Freeview
On top of this freesat is growing well as well as HD services provided by cable and satellite companies.
By The World Cup 20% coverage can't be ruled out and perhaps 25% by the end of the year.
The BBC is responsible more making sure its Formula One coverage outside of the races is HD ready so if F1 switches to HD next year then the BBC are also ready.
There is also nothing that stops the BBC requesting to these sports that they produce coverage in HD.
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@derek500
How does Eurosport get round to providing so much HD coverage?
It has already launched Eurosport 2 in HD though it hasn't arrived in the UK yet.
If they can strike deals with OB companies for HD coverage at the right price surely the BBC being a much bigger broadcaster could get good value as well?
@HD_fan428
Perhaps also they are frustrated at providing viewers with SD coverage with all that OB equipment ready and waiting in HD.
And as they work with Sky and Eurosport who work in 1980x1080 they are questioning why BBC HD runs at a lower resolution and why they fix the bandwidth.
There is enough bandwidth to launch a red button HD stream and unfix BBC HD, it would be ideal if they removed 1 of the MPEG2 channels though.
It is getting very hard for the BBC to book SD only equipment for Championship coverage, Autumn Internationals, Darts, Snooker, The Grand National and F1 coverage and other sports as OB companies are investing in HD and providing more and more services in HD.
The OB companies must wonder why the 6 nations games from Ireland, Italy and France aren't in HD when there is the ability to work with local OB companies in France and Italy and transport a HD OB unit to Dublin.
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@HD_fan428
Hopefully they are complaining about ITV HD running in a lower resolution as well unlike Eurosport, ESPN and Sky. Even RUSH HD is outdoing the 2 of the biggest UK broadcasters.
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Some people have been asking why the BBC subsamples at 1440 pixels. Codec performance can be measured with the Picture Signal to Noise Ratio (PSNR). This shows that subsampling gives a slightly higher PSNR particularly at very low bit rates. I have also read that it also masks the loss of detail produced by using high compression in production. In other words if you distribute at 1920 pixels you need to take more care in production to make sure your pictures are really sharp.
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# 156 I am almost certain that Eurosport do not cover any sports themselves, all they do is take feeds from other broadcasters. They do, however, like the BBC, have live inserts produced by themselves.
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As I have said previously there are HD OB units that sit in companies yards/lock ups for sometimes weeks at a time without going out to work so there is no shortage of equipment at present. It is all down to money and contracts as most productions/sports are done on 3-5 year deals so all broadcasters do not have the luxury of going round OB companies to get the best price for each event below is a list of who covers most UK sport
Arqiva- Sky Championship football,Speedway,BBC question time,big questions and antiques roadshow.Quite a bit of Opera work from London for Italy and spain
Arena- Sky greyhounds,Darts world championships,Boxing and some BBC ad hoc work like Electric proms,Wimbledon and 1st series of Dont forget the lyrics
CTV-Sky UK cricket,European tour golf,NFL UK,Sky1 Grease the musical,cirque d celebrity and then they do bits for others like Brits,Diana concert.
SIS Live- BBC six nations,Wimbledon,proms,Challenge cup and most BBC live events. ITV Champions league,Sky 1 Gladiators
Visions-Sky premiership football and champions league,Scottish cup footy,Horse of the year and various add ons
Telegenic-Sky Rugby union and superleague,Fishomania
Bow Tie- Sky premier league of darts and premier league snooker,BBC London marathon
021- Sky SPL football,ITV England + FA cup,Dancing on ice
Televideo-BBC six nations normally scottish games,ITV BTC
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What does the HD in BBCHD stand for?
http://vmhd.blogspot.com/2009/11/virgin-demonstrating-3d-tv.html
I like Hardly Different (from BBC1) any further suggestions?
Just watched Question of Sport on BBC1 a promo before it for Strictly and then one after it for The New Doctor Who show with no mention of HD.
Come on Danielle promote your channel!!! How many times have we asked for this, and you the cheek to say that you listen !!!Are you embarrassed about the quality by any chance or just cant be bothered?
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I think the reason BBC dont advertise and direct shows to the channel is because it would be false advertising surely??? They broadcast in a sub standard resolution, broadcast most shows which look like upscales and call them hd and run on a stupid low bandwith.
Any news of new management at the channel yet???
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@ 161, If you was in charge of BBC HD, would you promote this kind of product??? If I was in charge id be hiding away cringing with embarrassment that the channel that I run is so bad. The more people that tune in means the more people who laugh at the joke of the channel.
I just dont get why Danielle cannott admit theres an issue.
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lol Jonathan Ross upscaled, yet they are showing the HD DOG lol.
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At least Sky has the honesty to switch off the HD logo when transmitting upscaled SD. It JR certainly looked upscaled.
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@derek500
If the OB companies that work for Eurosport or the national broadcasters that work with Eurosport can bring a 1980x1080 HD image on a channel with a unfixed bit-rate I can't see why the BBC can't.
Eurosport have brought HD Tennis, Car racing recently and will show some martial arts Boxing, a Logging competition and Snooker all in HD.
It's becoming harder and harder for the BBC to book a SD only outside broadcast unit as these companies are upgrading the equipment they have and already have a large amount of HD ready equipment.
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@derek500
Eurosport have brought Live Tennis, various Car racing events recently Live and in HD and 5.1 and a logging event delayed in HD and 5.1 and will show a martial arts boxing event and bring live snooker in HD and 5.1
@trevorjharris
If every other broadcaster can bring a 1980x1080i image to HD platforms it raises questions why two of the biggest broadcasters can't.
Especially when by fixing the bit-rate the BBC is wasting transponder capacity, unless it plans to launch a red button HD stream along side BBC HD and then unfix the bitrates.
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Love the new preview loop, much longer previews and the BBCHD symbol at the start of each clip. Please can we have this symbol on when promos are done on other BBC channels, see post 161.
The picture quality looks good also why cant it be like this all the time?
10/10 Danielle & Co
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"egg on a stilt - I know you were trying to be funny with your DOG joke but in my view it was disruptive and therefore broke the house rules."Quoted from Nick Reynolds on this thread.
Joke or nay the point was quite serious, if you consider two posts with the word woof in the top left hand corner disruptive to this thread, even off topic perhaps, I would like to turn it on it's head and throw it back at you.
The BBC DOG (in it's many incarnations) rarely if ever has any relevance to the programme you are watching, it adds no value to the programme and IT is disruptive to the viewers enjoyment, you don't have to take my word for it there are many who have posted complaining for a long time, not just about the normal BBC DOG but most definitely the HD DOG, and DN is asking about HD issues on this blog. None of this you can deny.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbpointsofview/F1951566?thread=5439003
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/01/bbc_hd_creeping_dogs.html
So I will say for once (of late) that you Nick and I agree on something, that a word or emblem in the top left hand corner is disruptive and needs to be removed.
You are fortunate that you have the power to remove your irritant, we the viewers are not so lucky with ours.
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I dont understand the people who run BBC HD at all and probably wouldnt want to, but I don't get why they cannott run at 1980x1080 resolution.
Does it really cost much more to run at a higher resolution???
I know quality is bottom of the list for BBC HD management, but surely the veryt least they can do is broadcast at 1980x1080.
Any reasons why they dont??
Also, Andy Quested/Danielle?, why are BBC HD showing shows upscaled now?? I thought the policy was that Upscales were a no no??
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Appalling sound level issues again on Strictly, but BBC 1 seems ok.
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Yes sound problems here also. No drop outs but sound levels going up and down. Blackpool looked much better than the London Studio.
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The overnight log from the broadcast engineers should provide interesting reading on Monday morning. The technical problems with the broadcast of Strictly Come Dancing from Blackpool ruined, for me, what was obviously a well produced show.
I have to say I thought the picture quality was very good but surely the BBC should do better with the audio - not even an apology.
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@ 173 "but surely the BBC should do better with the audio - not even an apology."
BBC HD apologise??? Hahahaha. Danielle and her team still wont apologise for the bandwith and quality reduction.
So many things wrong with BBC HD and some of them could be resolved easily.
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Danielle, from the lack of response about picture accepting that there is a general problem the BBC HD channel has lost its shine. If you really were committed and cared about the channels output, the problems with such a low bitrate and encoders coping with it should have been resolved by now. If you are not interested in resolving these issues, then please pave the way for somebody who will whole heartedly listen to what the licence payers want. For many of us viewers, this problem will not go away and defeatt is not an option.
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I've just watched the highlights on the England v Australia match in SD on BBC2.
At comment #160, @speedwayfan22 wrote "As I have said previously there are HD OB units that sit in companies yards/lock ups for sometimes weeks at a time without going out to work so there is no shortage of equipment at present."
And as I've said previously, within the terms of the licence BBC HD transmissions "could include as much as 657 hours/year of first-showing films and sport" every year. But it doesn't!
Put 2 + 2 together Danielle, please, listen to @Andrew Knight and @speedwayfan22, and all the other sports fans commenting here, and at least give us the Autumn Internationals and F1, and other sports up in HD to fill up your quota.
Danielle, I'm also told you're going to be on POV this afternoon. Can you confirm that because I might have to go out (so can anyone record it?)?
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@zubeirp
Yes you are right it is totally unacceptable that Danielle should refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem with picture quality. This attitude is not new. The BBC and Ofcom ignored complaints about bitrates on DAB. DAB is now being abandoned across Europe.
The real impact of the poor quality will be to Freeview HD. Terestrial HD is very much more expensive than satellite and I think that Channel 4 and Five and possibly ITV will pull out it. The viewing figures will not be able to justify the massive costs. It would make more sense for these companies to join the Sky HD package. This will give Sky an even greater monopoly on HD television.
I think the reason the BBC is refusing to acknowledge a problem is that they do not have an alternative plan. In particular all the Freeview HD plans rely on being able to use low bitrates. Freeview HD is very cost sensitive. If they use higher bit rates Freeview HD becomes uneconomic.
So why is the BBC pushing ahead with Freeview HD with such urgency. One reason is that for both BBC and ITV Freeview is cheaper for regional television. The cost of puting all the regions on Freesat HD would be prohibitive and in any case there is not enough transponder space. There is another reason the BBC and ITV like Freeview HD is the lack of competition. Freeview is only limited to 4 HD channels and so makes it easier to compete. So the BBC is hoping that a significant number of people will not be put off by the poor picture quality. I think the BBC knew prefectly well that the reduce bit rate would reduce the picture quality but they underestimated the demand for higher quality pictures.
There is another scenario which would scupper the BBC plans. The vacant multiplexes are going to be sold off by Ofcom. As far as I know there is nothing to stop the owners from using it for television transmission. What if Sky was to purchase one or two multiplexes they could then use them for reviving their "Picnic" plans. They could transmit Sky Sports 1 in HD plus a few SD channels on terestrial. They may even use MPEG4 for the SD channels to make it more economic.
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Hi Paul, I am recording todays POV
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#178, thanks zubeirp, I'm still in and waiting though.
Danielle, further to my plea for the Autumn Internationals in HD on the BBC. When flicking the channels earlier, I couldn't help but notice that ITV were showing a soccer match in HD from what appeared to be a local park. You could have competed with that offering with a match from Twickenham! Instead, you just gave us another repeat of the Preview loop (good though the new one is). What a shame.
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Hey zubeirp, you got a mention!
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POV.
Whitewash and hogwash MsNagler.
Your misrepresentation of what has been said here for months is unbelievable.
I trust the Trust will deal with this arrogance.
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#181, Hear hear, well said Mike. And I trust the Press will give BBC HD a grilling now too!
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Danielle,
POV. mmmmm.....not impressed.
First question.
Can you publish your market research that shows a significant amount of people find the DOG useful in navigating the channels?
Frankly I don't believe such people exist. Especially as all TVs /STBs show the channel when changing and have channel lists available at a touvh of a button.
It's for marketing and branding.
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Just seen it, surprised to see my comments!
Nothing positive that I wanted to hear from Danielle, very dissapointed with her spin.
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Well, Danielle seems to have explained it now.
It's only a small number of people that BELIEVE the PQ's rubbish.
What we're seeing is all in our imagination.
Still, I suppose it won't do Danielle's career any harm. Stick to the BBC line. Everything will be OK.
Reminds me of Comical Ali in Baghdad, saying there wasn't a problem, as the American tanks passed behind him.
Nero, fiddling and Rome jump to mind.
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Danielle - you should be in politics - I have never heard such spin. The problem with brushing everything under the carpet is that it creates an enormous bump which is dangerous as you follow the signs marked EXIT.
I've just watched the extended interview on the POV website - and can't believe some of the comments made. We really need the Trust to investigate this shambles - the final question asked of Danielle was what have been your proudest achievements in the last year? - in my opinion you should be proud of the fact that you have completely destroyed the channel and made BBC HD a complete joke in the industry. Hardly something to be proud of.
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To re-state the point my complaint which was broadcast on POV 3 weeks ago , for apparently it has been difficult to understand in some quarters - I, for one, fully support the use of different 'looks' across the output on all BBC channels. In HD one would expect that these different looks would be transmitted with even greater effect.
However, whether it be bitrate, encoders or a combination of both, the degredation in broadcast picture quality, is blocking, literally, the connection the directors intent and the viewers perception.
If we as viewers on one side of this transaction are not getting our voices heard I hope the producers and directors may have more clout, maybe with the Director of Vision if not the channel controller.
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......and as well as pictures being poor, the sound level on SCD from Blackpool must have been recorded from the big dipper.
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To all of those who coin the phrase, I'm a BBC licence payer, guess what, I have an HD TV but only freeview, and I pay the same fee as everyone else. I am looking forward to HD, but I think that alot of people need to have a reality check.
In POV it was stated that there is no evidence to say that the picture quality has worsened as a result of the bit rate. I think that people on here who don't believe this need to prove it with a video prior to the bitrate decreasing, and on after.
In terms of scheduling, may I just make a point. Given that this is presently not availiable on Freeview, and therefore Virgin/Sky/iPlayer etc, why not record things that you will miss? Sky+? Virgin OD? iPlayer OD?
For those of you who are taking your frustrations out on Danielle, shame on you all. You know nothing about HD but just like everyone they think the customer is always right, but you're not. Danielle apologised for not being able to deal with as many complaints ashave been lodged, because she os dealing with the technical issues in some programmes. People need to cut the BBC some slack, HD is a new technology, and takes development just like anything else. If you don't like it you all know what you can do.
I am a BBC licence payer, and I woul request that you just keep plugging away at the issues where you can.
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On POV, Danielle said "There's no evidence that that reducing the bitrate has an impact on picture quality".
In this EBU document:
http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r124.pdf
they gave recommendations based on tests of production HDTV studio compression codecs and HDTV broadcast encoders performed by the EBU, and in that document it states that
"The most significant factor in the preservation of picture quality in production and emission is the chosen bitrate"
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Danielle is the boss of BBC HD and with responsibility comes accountability. I may not be an HD expert but I know from viewing each night that the picture is not as good as several months ago. I also know we were promised drama without the HD DOG - however Waterloo Road had one this week.
Strictly Come Dancing has yet again had audio problems this week.
To me it seems there is no quality control on this channel and as the Boss Danielle has to take the flack and take of her rose tinted glasses - whilst the increase in programmes is good the quality of transmission is not.
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Re: POV. For all those who couldn't believe what you were hearing, you can check that you heard it right here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mysv
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Re: post#190 HD1080
1080, the statement Danielle made totally contradicts the published recommendation. I am going to make a complaint about the incorrect comment she made re: bitrate does not affect picture quality. Maybe Danielle should stick to using a 1 megapixel camera for pictures, it wont affect the quality...
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#189 from Joe: "In POV it was stated that there is no evidence to say that the picture quality has worsened as a result of the bit rate. I think that people on here who don't believe this need to prove it with a video prior to the bitrate decreasing, and on after."
Here you go:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/09/picture_quality_on_hd_a_respon.html?page=2#comments post 871
To save you the trouble of finding it, I'll quote bits of myself:
"I've finally managed to do some comparisons between a programme shown before and after the encoder/bitrate change. The results are interesting.
The programme is Nature's Great Events, ep. 5. The following are raw frame captures over a period of about 10 seconds. Remember that since the broadcast is interlaced there are some artefacts present which would not be visible on a live picture. You have to click on the image twice to get to the unscaled 1920*1080 version.
[...]
There is obviously motion blur in this shot, but the 16 meg version is just blurred where the 9 meg blocks:
[old encoder first]
http://img442.imageshack.us/i/natge5316.jpg/
http://img177.imageshack.us/i/natge539.jpg/
I think this final frame shows what is really going on. On the 16 meg the blurred fuzzy white tip of the porcupine's mane (or whatever it is) looks like it just might be a photographic effect, but it's obviously blocking in the 9 meg, as is the dead grass behind it. It reminds me of a photoshop plugin that gives images the look of being done by an impressionist painter.
Once you see this, it's also quite clear that the apparent extra detail around the porcupine's eye and cheek fur in the 9 meg shot is also the product of heavyhanded processing. Perhaps this is what we are seeing in the first image as well.
My conclusion from this is that the current encoder arrangements tend to suddenly block even in broadly favourable conditions, and sometimes obscure detail the old version lets through. I think these are the reasons (or at least two of them) that pictures now look less transparent, i.e. less as if viewed through a window, than they did. Poring over frame grabs may seem like an artificial exercise but I'm convinced these artefacts are apparent in normal viewing conditions. That's how I tracked them down.
So perhaps this is what people mean when they say the wow factor has gone."
Joe, how did you decide that 'You know nothing about HD, but just like everyone they think the customer is always right, but you're not'? Have you actually read any of the material here? I don't mean me, but other obviously expert commentators. One said of those screen grabs (post 878)
"Been looking at the frames from #871 on and off all day, especially the 3rd pair.
The 16 meg frame looks like it was filtered/blurred more before being compressed. This might not be helping things, it may be that the current encoder is being fed more detail than the old encoder had to deal with, and this extra detail is overwhelming it. Although my perceived extra sharpness in the 9 meg frame could just be an illusion resulting from the 'harder' edges caused by the main problem here - Posterization.
Everywhere in the image but especially in the "blurred fuzzy white tip of the porcupine's mane", there seems to be a big loss of colour depth, resulting in big steps in tone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterization
What makes it worse is that a lot of these steps in tone have a sharp vertical or horizontal component. This can only be caused by Macroblocks from the previous frame being moved to their new predicted position in this frame, but not enough (or not sharp enough) residual difference info added back in to hide the vertical and horizontal edges.
Apart from giving a higher bitrate to the residual, or just higher bitrate period, I cant see how you'd fix this"
Do they sound like the views of someone who knows nothing? I'd also strongly recommend posts 767 and 775 by fireyab9. There are more examples of problematic images, and dozens more technically well informed critical comments, but I understand that going through hundreds of posts (probably heading for 2000 between the various blogs) is too much to ask. If you look through at least the ones I've indicated, please tell us if you hold the same view, and why. And if you've changed your mind, it would be (genuinely) good to know why you held your original opinion.
To everyone else who have been contributing on here and know the problems all too well, one conclusion that can be drawn from this is that spinning and propaganda obviously work, at least sometimes, on those who have no previous knowledge of the issue. A bad day for the BBC.
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Danielle, having seen your interview on i-Player I can only say you missed your vocation. You should have been a politian, or maybe the perfect actor for 'The Thick of It'. You talk absolute unadulterated rubbish. What an excellent first year BBC HD are having under your steady guidance and random decision making.
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The extended interview is here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mysv
you have to scroll down to find it.
Danielle the evidence of PQ deteriation can be seen with the naked eye we do not need Andy's long awaited blog.
DOG's - there is no need as all the formats that carry HD have an information bar which tells you which channel you are on. Pre August you could tell in a instant even without it as the picture was always stunning.
You claim the new encoders have brought more depth ?? The depth is something that is now missing. You say they are more efficent, no evidence so far.
You claim sport should see every blade of grass? This was not evident in the recent Championship Game.
Why dont you upscale the non HD content??
What a load of denial and spin I hope the Trust sort it all out. I have lost all faith in you.
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Sorry if I am repeating what others have already asked, but in a quick read of the blogs I haven't seen these two questions answered.
(i) Why doesn't BBC show sport in HD as a matter of course? Sky and Eurosport can manage it so why not the BBC? For example Premier League, Formula 1, Golf and Snooker?
(ii) Why was the sound on Freesat HD 'Strictly' last night (7 November) so apalling? It was a bit better on Sky HD, but not so good as usual I think.
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#189 @Joe, I see you've not posted on here before, so I'm guessing you've not been following these Blogs for long. If that's correct then I strongly recommend you follow-up the comment from HD_fan428 that you read some of them (particularly fireyab9's).
Like you, I was looking forward to getting HD once. I'd seen it demonstrated both on Blu-Ray and on SKY in TV Showrooms and thought Wow, I have to have some of that. That was over a year ago, but as an avid believer that SKY should not be allowed to get away with monoplising the UK's Media market I waited until I could get it on Freesat from the BBC and ITV (via the Red button).
In the last 14 months I have witnessed the deterioration in the picture quality of the BBC's offerings, and it's not been because it's a new tecnology being developed that needs time to bed-in. It's because the BBC are actively turning it down - and the Wow, for me, has most certainly gone since August. I have been campaiging for this to stop, and I've been doing it, not just for me and my family, but also on behalf of people like you who haven't yet benefitted from the delights of top notch HD.
I think that it would be quite wrong for us "early adopters" to sit back and witness the channel slide into mediocrity without trying to do something about it. If you don't appreciate my efforts, that's fine, because I'm sure that if I, and the several hundred others complaining here, do succeed in stopping the rot then there will be many others who will be extremely grateful.
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Danielle said
"There's no evidence that reducing the bitrate has an impact on picture quality"
and
"What HD quality is about is about more picture information"
Isn't reducing the bitrate reducing the picture information? It is the bits that hold the picture information. The lower the bitrate, the less bits are available to store the picture information.
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It will be interesting to see what Andy has to say about the sound drop outs on Strictly come dancing as they were very obvious even to casual viewers. I believe it was an ob unit fault,anybody know who provided the facilities for this ? There was a dual feed HD uplink from Blackpool one via Atlantic bird and another via Intelsat which ran at the massive 60mb imagine how clear that feed would have been.
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Can there be a blog post on why the DOG needs to remain and other bit-rate issue. The DOG was a commercial creation. There is no need for it to be on a public broadcaster unless a blog post can explain it point by point how it meets the criteria of a public broadcaster.
The problem with bit-rates is that encoders are variable not fixed, there are very few if any channels in the UK that use fixed bit-rates which is why this experiment has been a disaster.
The BBC HD channel like all other broadcasts must be unfixed.
BBC HD can't claim it helps create a certain style of 'look'.
A soft look is created by the producer, a channel bit-rate can't be manipulated to create a certain 'look'.
There is enough transponder room on the transponder to create a red button HD stream.
Currently bandwidth is wasted, enough for a red button HD channel and to unfix the bitrates.
Such a red button HD stream could be provided to
Another bad weekend for Sports viewers.
Sky Sports showed HD highlights of the Rugby League match France v Australia, this match went out in the early afternoon live on the BBC and could have been shown on BBC HD as it wouldn't have clashed with anything.
BBC HD could have also shown highlights today of the England v Australia game which was shown in HD as well.
It's understandable that it would have been difficult to show the Wales v New Zealand match in HD because of the clash with Strictly Come Dancing but next year the BBC needs to work with Strictly Come Dancing and the BBC Sport department so Autumn Internationals can be shown in HD followed by Strictly Come Dancing.
Also ITV had the perfect example of how to bring 6 nations rugby from Ireland,France and Italy and events like Formula One, The Grand National and other Rugby League and Union matches that the BBC has.
They used an outside broadcast company, which you could clearly see today for the Northwich Victoria v Charlton game.
They had 2 presenters on the pitch side working with those in the outside broadcast unit to help produce pre-game half-time and post game coverage in HD.
The game was brought in HD with no studio needed to keep costs down on BBC HD and Sport could do this as well to bring more sports in HD.
The BBC could work with local outside broadcast units for the Italy and France games and provide the HD coverage to those countries broadcasters to share the costs. While for Ireland games the BBC could send over a outside broadcast unit and produce the game in a similar fashion to the Northwich Victoria v Charlton game so all 6 nations games are brought in HD.
Bringing more sport in HD like Formula One is far more important than daytime television shows like Flog it and The Unsellables.
These are poor programmes especially The Unsellables which is just acting like an Estate Agent on BBC HD.
There is little reason for Hole in the Wall as well. Viewers would rather see Merlin and Spooks.
So far BBC HD is available in roughly 2.6 million homes or 12% of UK households. By the World Cup this could be 20% or even greater. Certainly by the end of next year with freesat and freeview HD and cable and satellite services it could be in more than 25% of homes.
People just don't want poor daytime shows like Flog it and the Unsellables using money from the BBC HD budget, they want better shows.
Can anyone explain why BBC HD is trying to claim that Life is a film? Look at the BARB listings.
Is BBC HD trying to meet its sport and film quota by mis-labelling programmes?
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Just watched POV
Just about the most insulting comments I have ever heared directed to licence fee payers. I feel totally insulted. The BBC don't alow us to make insulting comments on this blog but Danielle has alowed here to insult the viewers in this way.
The first thing is that Danielle she is not technically qualified to say that picture quality is not related to bitrate. As far as I know the only qualification she has is as a Journalist. She catagorically stated that "there is no evidence that bitrate has an impact on picture quality or there is an absolute relationship between bitrate and picture quality". As any technical person will tell you picture quality is directly related the bitrate. This can be mathematically proven with analysis of the Discrete Cosine Transform used in the MPEG4 codec. A considerable amount of reseach has gone into the relationship between bitrate and picture quality and many of those papers have been referenced in these blogs.
So why did Danielle make such a rediculous statement. Firstly was this a deliberate lie to take the heat off. If it was I think her position as head of HD is untenable. Secondly she could have not of fully understood what her technical staff were saying to her. In any case I think she should have checked with her technical staff that the statement was correct. Whatever the reason she has mislead millions of viewers and should apologize. I think the BBC should also make a statement on the matter.
Danielle also says she has a very active conversation on the HD Blog. Well Danielle this is a very "oneway" conversation as you never reply on your blog.
Danielle then goes on to try and explain away the complaints as us requiring a "single look". She talks about picture information. Well Danielle information theory shows us that picture information is directly related to bitrate. She also talks about "depth". I am not sure what she means by this. An HD picture uses 24bits to decribe a pixel which is exactly the same as SD. SD and HD are made up of the same number of colours.
Another word that Danielle used was the "Filmic". Well filmic usually refers to two aspects of most films and that is "depth of field" and frame rate. Film is normally shot on 35mm film which in combination with standard film lenses gives a certain depth of field in the pictures. Sometimes television cameras use special lenses to mimic that effect giving it a filmic look. The frame rate used in film is only 24 frames per second which gives films their characteristic flickering on movement. So what Danielle seem to be sugesting is that hd should have a single look and that is filmic. I think what she may have been trying to express is the use of soft lenses but this is used in both films and television and is not normally considered filmic.
The other confusion that comes out of this is picture sharpness. Bitrate reduction does reduce picture sharpness but it also creates artifacts such as blocking. Danielle seems to believe that it only sharpness that we are complaining about. Of cource soft lens and reduced depths of field reduces sharpness and this is not what we are complaing about. We are complaining about the bluring and artifacts caused by the codec. Photographic evidence has been produced on this board showing the difference between the 16mb/s and 9 mb/s pictures.
Finally she comes up with the slogan "HD really great pictures". Well clearly to most peoples eyes this is not true. Why is it that Danielle is blind to the decrease in picture quality. I know from research that there is a wide variation of peoples perception of picture quality but is it possible that some people are almost blind to picture quality.
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I've just got round to watching PoV.
To say that I am incensed by the softness of the questions and the complete whitewash responses is putting it mildly. Did anyone else feel patronised at the Head of HD's responses?
To say that there is no evidence that reduced bit-rate means reduced PQ astounds me - over 1000 posts here and lord only knows how many on non BBC sites about this - are we all wrong?
This is not some tin-pot mickey mouse broadcaster, this is the hitherto WORLD LEADING BBC, offering sub-standard HD in it's own back yard and as such this situation is totally unacceptable. I'm actually ashamed of MY BBC tonight.
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Spot on Trevor post 203.
We are complaining about the blurring effect and artefacts caused by the bit rate cut.
Photographic evidence has shown this and that higher bit rates produce better quality. The EBU statement has also shown this. Danielle is totally blind to the picture quality.
'Danielle also says she has a very active conversation on the HD Blog.' Exactly two blog posts and not one word off her?? Hardly Active conversation.
Did anyone else think she was just laughing at us and did not really know what she was talking about.?
She really does know how to rub people up the wrong way.
The strictly sound problem really spoilt a good show from Blackpool I wonder what Andy's excuse will be this time? That is if he bothers to reply at all.
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If a BBC manager makes a factually untrue statement on a BBC programme there are mechanisms for complaint outwith this blog structure.
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Christ on a bike!
This place is worse than a lynch mob at Ian Huntleys birthday party!
Even I'm bored with it and I was in agreement with you. I don't know if any changes have been made but the picture quality over the last couple of days has vastly improved for some reason. Maybe something was done, maybe it wasn't but the picture has been superb.
Looking forward to Top Gear if it's as good as today!
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Two things.
One, I agree with the others who noticed the SCD problems, the sound levels were up and down for the last 20 minutes or so I watched.
Two, my other half watched POV separately and then rang me to point out that precisely nothing was answered. As others have said, I object to be being referred to as a "small group" which seems to seek to marginalise our views and basically says if you don't agree with the majority you're wrong. I did say some weeks ago, if the BBC provided answers, whilst we may not like them, we would abide by them - but again the silence is deafening, pending of course Andy's upcoming report which I am sure will be unbiased and not tweaked to support the BBC position.
Lastly, Danielle a conversation is two way, I think you actually meant to say monologue - it's easy to mix things up in front of the camera though, like bitrates and picture quality.
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@207
I too had suspected/hoped there had been some small improvement this week on the more challenging material but again certain scenes in Garrows Law are a quivering mess.
The one and only reason this channel exists is picture quality, that valid concerns over this have been treated with such disdain is the reason for such strong feelings here. Had there been a true conversation this may not have been the case.
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Not watched POV yet - I'm already angry enough about tonight's X-Factor result to view it objectively. However, this morning's Remembrance Day coverage from the Cenotaph was full of blocky, flickery fades and transitions. It jumped out a mile from the screen. It's months since the new encoder was introduced, and that was the first big problem that everyone noticed - It's a very poor show that this issue has not been effectively tackled yet.
Also the Cenotaph coverage shouldn't have been DOG'ed - it just looks offensive and disrepsectful to DOG something like that.
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I do wonder what TVs the BBC HD crew are watching their own output on. Small LCDs (i.e 40 inch or less) from 12+ feet away? I would probably agree you would not see the problem on such a setup. Try watching on a full HD 50+ inch plasma from 8 feet away, then tell me there is no problem. You will clearly see their is.
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#206, I agree and I expect the complaints will be flooding in to the BBC through its official [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/homepage/"]complaints [/URL]website from all corners.
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I have one question for you Danielle:
With the channel in a state of ridicule within the industry, with constant technical glitches and problems, with viewing figures falling and then alienating those viewers who have recently expressed their views with a 'everything is fine' attitude on POV - do you think you are qualified to run the channel or are you out of your depth?
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How can the BBC employ a Head of HD whose understanding of the technology that she suggests that lowering the bit-rate won't lower the image quality?
She also talks like a politician, unable to answer a question in a way that we can believe she knows what she's talking about, or even being truthful.
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@209
I'm loving Garrows Law, it's compulsive viewing. The acting is superb. The picture looks ok to me.
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Andy would you like to comment on Danielle's POV statement
"there is no evidence that bitrate has an impact on picture quality or there is an absolute relationship between bitrate and picture quality"
Or are you going to find the nearest cupboard to hide in till the flack has passed.
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#207, #215, Ian, I'm surprised by your first comment tonight, did you actually see POV? You yourself once begged Danielle to address PQ as her number one priority. If you did see it, do you really think that she grasped the opportunity (the best she's had so far) to respond to all our passionate PQ complaints and to address them seriously? wrt the second comment, I've not been following Garrow's Law but it sounds like I ought to. Personally, I'd like to thank Danielle for giving us HD Ray Mears, and of course for HD Top Gear next week, at least the content is improving (albeit slowly) under her stewardship of the channel.
Back to POV, I thought the questions were quite good, but the answers certainly weren't what I'd been hoping to hear. Andy, you've been very quiet on here for a while now. As a "Sound" man I guess you're busy sorting out the channel's audio problems. Oh, and of course checking the results of the checks on the test results, that we're all so looking forward to. I know you'll back Danielle 100% with everything she said on telly today, but I wondered if you would like to elaborate on some of the answers for us. Just to explain what she actually meant by the words she used. A full transcript of the extended programme, as a Blog here, with additional comments on the answers from her Head of Technology would be very helpful.
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I have just seen the extended interview. She claims in this that the new encoders deliver the same quality as the old codecs at 16mb/s. Well I have seen the results of a test of the new encoders and I can assure everone this is not true. If Andy has done his own tests correctly they will confirm that a much bigger bit rate is required. For 1440x1080i25 a minimum bit rate of 12 Mb/s is required. In my opinion I believe the critera to establish this rate is far too lax as artifacts are often evident in certain clips. The improvement of the new encoder is certainly nothing like that being claimed by Danielle.
In an earlier post I outlined how the EBU do their testing of codecs. I have come to the conclusion that these tests are not thorough enough to use the results for establishing a suitable bitrate for HD broadcasting.
The criteria used is that the quality should be better than an MPEG2 SD picture at 6Mb/s. This criteria is the opinion of "experts". It is now becoming evident that the opinion of "Experts" is not the same as the expectations of the general public. The EBU needs to do some research into the quality expections of the general public and not rely on old criteria based on SD quality expectations.
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I also urge as many of you as possible to fill out the BBC HD Complaints form.
Would anyone be up for a protest march at BBC TV centre sometime??? Maybe actions speak louder than words.
I think a peaceful protest could be arranged???
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#212, Thanks Paul. I have complained re: the incorrect statement Danielle made.
"There's no evidence that reducing the bitrate has an impact on picture quality"
and
"What HD quality is about is about more picture information"
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"There is no evidence that bitrate has an impact on picture quality or there is an absolute relationship between bitrate and picture quality" Danielle Nagler 8th November 2009
@Paul
I don't see how Andy could posibly support Danielle in this as this will turn ignorance into a conspiricy. As I said previously I guess he will find a large cupboard and hide in it. I must admit that Danielles approach of trying to turn codec artifacts into Art is original but I don't think she will be able to find any artist to agree with her.
So what has happened to Andy's test results. We have waited an awfull long time for these. I suspect they will follow the EBU method of assessing codec performance. If this is true he certainly will not be able to show that the current bit rate with the new codecs show have the same quality.
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@ trevorjharris
EBU guidelines aside there is enough unused capacity for BBC HD to launch a second red button HD stream on the transponder, by fixing the bit-rate a large amount of capacity is being wasted. Surely this has also come to the attention of Andy.
This extra channel could be made available to cable viewers and if BBC HD couldn't get extra capacity from freeview HD it could link users to the HD iPlayer which it is working on satellite on at the moment.
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I've just published a blog post pointing to Danielle's interview on Points of View. Please leave your comments about this there.
As this thread is sliding all over the place in terms of topic and becoming overheated I'm going to close it later today.
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Well before you close this blog, and relevant to her original post I hope we will get an explanation from Danielle about the shortcomings of Saturdays Strictly Come Dancing , and while we are at it why her "Dog Patrol" of previous posts thought that the Cenotaph broadcast was deemed suitable for DOG placement.
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