Points Of View Message Board
| 15:56 UK time, Friday, 14 November 2008
Recently my boss Jem Stone has gone to BBC radio where he's now in charge of their communities, blogs and message boards. Which means that some of the things he used to have responsibility for have fallen to Tom Van Aardt (Communities Editor, FM&T) and to me.
One of these is the Points of View message board.
Our moderators put in a lot of effort to ensure that inappropriate comments are removed from the boards.
But moderation and hosting are not the same thing. Whisky usefully explains the difference here. And (as Ångelicweeyin among others have noticed) it's fair to say that recently the level of hosting on the boards has been less than ideal.
So to "sort out these boards" both myself and Jem are now taking on a more active role hosting them. And in the next few weeks we hope to have additional hosting on the boards as well. So I hope the situation will improve.
Everything in moderation including excess" photo from major clanger on flickr.
Which is as good a time as any to remind you that BBC boards do have House Rules.
As Jem has said here we don't close threads just because they embarrass the BBC. But offensive, abusive, or threatening personal comments about BBC staff, talent, other members of the boards or indeed anybody will be moderated. As indeed will anything likely to get someone sued.
Personally I'm more of a blogger than a message board man. But it's always good to learn. My initial sense after having rummaged around on the POV boards for a bit is that while there are some lively discussions there's also a lot of off topic chat.
Myself, Tom, Jem and Roo Reynolds (who works in BBC Television and is no relation) are currently talking about the Points of View boards and how they fit with the rest of the BBC's blogs and message boards.
So I'd like to know what you think.
Are you a regular user of the POV boards? Are they easy to use? What's good and bad about them? Does it make sense to call them "Points of View"?
How do they compare with your experience of the BBC's blogs or other BBC communities?
Do you prefer the radio messageboards or BBC News' Editors blog? Is the Strictly Come Dancing message board better?
Leave your comments and I'll will engage (and try and keep them on topic please).
Nick Reynolds is editor, BBC Internet blog but is doing other things as well
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~23~RS~)
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Hi Nick, and thank you for this opportunity to speak to you.
The obvious anomoly is that the POV programme does not deal with radio, but the radio equivalent of POV, R4's Feedback, has no message board.
And now the latest series of the POV TV show seems to have stopped paying attention to our points of view posted on the board, and seems to be less driven by the concerns we voice most often and more with matters that seem to have more to do with generating positive PR.
Cheers
JayInBournemouth; contributor to BBC MB's since 1996 and only put into pre-mod once for talking about rhubarb crumble in response to homophobic trolls, but I forgive you.
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Thank you for allowing us to comment.
Like Jay above, I was put on pre-mod for chatting on a thread where a Host had also been contributing off-topic chat, thus giving out the clear signal that the direction of the thread (which had become about recipes) was perfectly OK.
In addition, to make no distinction when meting out punishment between posts which are abusive, libellous, racist, homophobic or threatening, and posts which have simply strayed off-topic, seems very unfair.
I've had a post removed for making an on-topic response but underneath an off-topic one (so both got removed). When I queried that decision, I was advised in withering tones that I'd "just have to be more careful, won't you?"
And on another occasion a post of mine was removed for indicating a swear word through asterisks (as part of a famous and wholly relevant quotation) where someone else's post with about ten of the things was allowed to stay.
It's this inconsistent moderation which leaves a sour taste. I always try really hard to obey house rules, but during normal board conversations you're bound to post the odd off-topic response - comments like "Thanks for the info" or "Wow!" or "I should be so lucky." If, as happened with me, another board member with a grudge decides to try and get you off the boards, he or she can probably find enough such posts to get anyone at all on pre-mod. The Hosts should be protecting members from action like this, not abetting it.
Sorry for going on at such length, but I've been a member of Points of View for years and I've never known such shabby treatment of posters.
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At Plusnet, we've long engaged our customer base using forums/message boards. Quite early on though we took a very brave step to had over the moderation of those forums to the customers themselves. Working with us, they've created the rules set for running the board and work to keep the boards on topic, friendly and generally a nice place to be. Having the customers as the powers who control what can be talked about on there really help to generate a fair and impartial environment too. It's not always been easy, but our community would be no where near as strong without this.
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Hello Nick,
If you're going to be hosting on POV messageboard I just wanted to say welcome, and I hope you have a good time.
The POV board is the main part of BBC I use, so I can't really compare it with anywhere else - but I enjoy chatting about various TV programmes on there - I was especially sad to see former host Lee leave, because as I said to him he was probably the only other regular viewer of Eastenders and Doctor Who there.
Basically, I enjoy POV as it is, and haven't come here to moan but just to wish you luck!
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The POV message board is the only one I use fairly frequently, and moreso when SCD is being shown.
The other boards are hardly worth bothering with, such as digital and radio boards as the contributions are few and far between. The "official" SCD board is far to jumbled, imo. I stick to the main thread on POV for SCD where one can keep track of various postings and arguments without having to sort through heaps of different threads on the official SCD board.
Cheers, Croydon George.
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Hello Nick,
You will probably not 'see' me much as I do not post often, but I do read the posts a lot and they are very enlightening at times! I really like the PoV messageboard, in particular, and all of them in general.
To be quoted on the tv version of PoV is a goal. I do not stand a chance myself as I complain too much about background music! Ooops! There I go again!
The boards are very easy to use. It did take a while to get used to them, from the old blue boards, I have to say. There is just one aspect that I am sure we would all like to see added to them and that is a search facility, please. It would be very good to be able to find a topic, long gone, but which is being talked about yet again and to keep up to date.
Thank you for the chance for us to add our views on here about the messageboards.
Best wishes, and 'see' you on the board!
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It's ok but it doesn't seem to have a unified netiquette so some people treat it like a newsgroup and others like a forum and others like a bbs/blog - someone will come on most days and either complain about topgear or that they haven't set up their TV right so can't hear the voices (which of course is the BBC's problem they say)
Others think that there should only be 1 thread for each programme (I don't agree)
I don't think it's about adding rules and restrictions, but a suggested guide and a FAQ wouldn't go amiss.
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I note that some of the poor hosting issues that have dogged the 6MMB are now spilling over onto the POV boards. I hope it isn't a trend, as the 6MMMB style of hosting is all gas and brakes. Either they completely ignore the boards, never post, never respond. OR they come in like the riot police, antagonising everyone and deleting posts on the most technical/spurious of reasons. There is a happy medium - it's called having a RELATIONSHIP with your board users. Give it a go.
We get the impression that you don't actually want real interaction with your customers. That's odd, as there are whole BBC departments devoted to this interactive agenda. What would happen to you all if we took the very heavy hint, and just went away?
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Hi Nick.Thanks for the chance to give you some feedback from the POV posters.I have used the POV message boards for many a while now and I can honestly say that it is not nearly such an enjoyable place to post as from when I first joined.I listen to more radio than I do watch television, so I usually leave a comment on your radio board.I appreciate there has to be house rules to follow but I think some of the moderating has been rather over zealous and this has contributed to the boards becoming not only less popular than before but less pleasurable to post on.I was quite amazed, the other day, that a quite harmless thread commenting on the Talksport broadcaster Jon Gaunt was closed because it was deemed off topic and the reason given was because he had not worked for the BBC
for a while.These kinds of threads concerning commercial radio and also tv have also ways stood in the past, so it becomes quite bewildering to posters as to where they stand and what is acceptable and what is not on the BBC message boards?The inconsistency of the moderation has in my view brought about the decline in the number of posters who now post on the POV boards.That together with the fact that people who first join then have to go through a laborious process of premoderation of so many posts before they are allowed to post straight to the boards.The reason given in the past was that the poster has to earn the ' trust ' of the Hosts/Moderators before they can be fully accepted onto the boards,which I happen to think is really condescending of the BBC.
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I've noticed Jem inserts lots of off topic information in his posts.
I know what he's had for dinner, if he's on the train, if he's going to the pub etc.
Perhaps you could have a word with him about keeping his posts on the straight and narrow.
I'm kidding of course, it'd be ridiculous to remove posts that stray off 'topic. It'd turn the community into an extremely dull and sterile place.
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Hello Nick
Welcome and good luck with the Board.
I am, sadly, addicted to the pov board and was very upset to be put in premod along with the crumble 6 from the gay kiss thread
.
I am sure that you know all about that! Jay and Riverbank have already mentioned it.
We knew we were off topic for a whole day and had some great fun talking about crumble and sprouts to get away from the sour note in the thread!
However the comments of only a few people were hidden and others off topic, bigotted and homophobic stayed.
Putting just afew of us into premod was unfair and inconsistent.
Anyway that's done and dusted.
One thing which annoys a lot of board members is where a provocative apparently first post gets past pre mod, and then the poster does a runner.
The gay kiss threads are good examples of this. Maybe you could arrange for that to stop?
Thanks to poster who put the link for this onto pov board. Nippie? If so another of the c*****6!
Apologies for the length of this. Good to have someone who cares.
666RozKing x
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POV seems to be just a place for total nutters these days, and I see that people are mocking it all at:
http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/
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Well, I posted on what I thought was this blog, but it hasn't appeared, so I assume that as usual I have gone wrong somewhere. I'll try again.
I read all the comments on POV and sometimes join in with a thread in which I'm interested. Some of the more popular threads are difficult to keep up with, as the two that reached 300+ when I was missing for few days.
However, of late there appears to be a lot of bitterness about having messages pulled, or being in pre-mod for what appear to be trivial reasons. It hasn't happened to me, but most of the members who have, are normally reasonable posters, so it does seem odd. There is a great deal of discontent.
This seems to be more since Peta left, (she was very helpful to me when I got confused...very easy when you are nearing tour eighties!!) and I was upset about Lee, and felt very sorry for him.
I am pleased we are being given the chance to have a say, and good luck.
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Hi Nick
In general the boards are good fun but should not be taken seriously because most in depth discussions usually creates an over-reaction from whoever is moderating.
History has shown that any sensitive and contentious exchange of views relating to relevant TV programmes and their content are a waste of time.
The most irritating aspect of all boards is the blatent lack of consistency on the part of the Mods when applying the house rules...your house rules!
When a posting has been removed and you ask for a better explanation believing, and sometimes knowing, that the houserules have not been properly applied you never get a reply.
Enjoy the board for what it is...a bit of fun and not to be taken seriously...which I'm sure was not the original concept.
Yours
Cpl Jones
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Hi Nick,
I find the POV boards good fun, with some knowledgeable and engaging contributors.
It will be good to get some regular Hosts back - Peta and Lee are much missed.
There does seem to be some inconsistencies re removing posts; I understand why as the Mods don't get to see the posts in context. Maybe this is something the Hosts could help with?
Welcome to the boards!
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i only go on the POV board these days. i used to be a regular on the old radio 2 boards where we were given our own 'coffee shop' to talk off topic so as not to keep getting modded. maybe you could consider that instead of deleting messages willy nilly for talking about crumble but leave nasty, homophobic/racist ones on?!?!
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I enjoy using the PoV boards, mainly the Television one. A big plus for me is getting alerted to programmes & films I'd overlooked.
If I had to put together a wish list for the boards, number 1 by far would be a search facility. Please, please can we have something - even if it's only the ability to find threads with particular words in their title.
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12. Brian: Speakyourbranes lifts material from Have Your Say not the Points of View message boards. Not sure if that would shift you from your perception that the BBC forums have been taken over by "total nutters" ;)
10. Alec Mac: Nick often has words with me about mentioning what i've had for my dinner.
I only
All: Inconsistencies of moderation are #1 issue that is being raised here and on the forums themselves. We intend to make changes there. Point taken.
17.Geometry Man. Yep. A record of previous threads either by being able to use search, or perhaps with beefing up of user profiles would reduce repetition, and improve how the boards work...
anyway. tx. keep yr feedback coming.
I'm sure that Nick and/or Tom will be looking to write up a follow up summary post of feedback received.
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It is most notable how the POV messageboard has been marginalized by the POV television programme in the latest series and over the years it's been evident how the board has been manipulated by the programme too. I can give examples.
It's good news to hear of fresh faces hosting POV, I have a few points to make. Firstly rewrite the house rules, or at least follow the rules that are there. I sometimes think the users stick to them more than the BBC does.
I can give you many examples too of posts and threads written by decent members of the board, staying within the house rules who find their post hidden, the thread closed and then they are put into pre-moderation. Any subsequent request for information for the treatment by the BBC is dealt similarly. They get no feedback from the BBC via email either when they seek reasons for such action - my opinion is that the BBC don't have an answer to give.
It says nothing in the house rules that you cannot talk about thread closures on the "bbc.co.uk" board but it doesn't take that long before those threads are closed themselves. What's the problem with 'talking among ourselves' if we're talking about matters pertaining to the 'bbc.co.uk' board and within house rules? It would also be considerate if a thread is to be closed for someone to say why a thread has been closed, it would therefore negate the need to start another thread requesting a reason.
There were many good points about the boards, an interesting mix of people commenting on tv and the points raised by them. There is also a lot of fun, mainly from an off(ish) topic thread which has been allowed. You also get forewarning of interesting programmes (usually the ones not trailed ad nauseam).
It's a shame that there has been a large exodus of people who have either been pushed or have walked away from the boards due to punitive, inconsistent moderation. I've made the point before, if the people on the board are cynical of the BBC it's because they have had dealings with the BBC who have created the cynicism in the first place.
The former hosts and some friends of the BBC were often to say that the opinions on the POV board were not representative of the overall views concerning the BBC. It was mystifying therefore, why they put so much effort into arguing the case for the BBC, is that part of the job description?
It would be helpful to this exercise if you looked back to the BBC's behavior during the "White Season" Debacle and the "Bonekickers" Debacle - an event from which I am still in pre-mod, yet despite requests I have not had a satisfactory reason explained to me, still could be worse some were banned from that time too. I'd gladly send you my email notices sent by the BBC so you can see the content for which I was put in pre-mod.
It wasn't the BBC's finest hour.
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Blogs are not for everyone, I don't particularly want to read other peoples' diaries.
Boards usually create communities, they are many things to many people, they develop, grow and change they live. Sometimes they die, or need to be killed off for a newer baby to be born.
Over zealous policing can be detrimental,
latitude has to be allowed, things being "on topic" or not, should not be the only factor, but the spirit of the posts and thread.
People have vastly different senses of humour and not everyone can get the meaning of their messages across how they intended, often it can read very differently to what the poster tried to say. we are not all journalists.
There are far too many message boards/forums and some refining is definitely needed.
A clear statement should be made if you want serious feedback rather than just providing a talking place.
You could make it clearer too exactly what the BBC's role on each board is going to be, as a watcher for information, a participant, or a "couldn't care less about it" but needs a referee.
Tightening up on multi threading might help, e.g. the sport anti sport lobbies that sprang up this summer all over POV boards.
One plea, can we ban the use of the words licence fee from any forum, we all pay it so it adds nothing saying you are one, nor is it a justification, to any argument :) The BBC apologising to licence fee payers recently only fuelled the use of this whingy whine. it was a bad move.
Regards
Egg
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Hello Nick and Jem
I enjoy reading/posting on POV and look at all the boards.
I like the fact that as well as BBC programmes, we are allowed to discuss programmes on other channels.
Threads can be interesting, heated and a good laugh. Also, as GeometryMan says, you get to find out about programmes/films that you may have missed had you not been on the board.
I'm glad that the issue of moderation is being looked at as it is very inconsistent at the moment.
Lack of communication is also an issue. When a post of mine has been removed and I don't understand why, I reply to the email and ask for clrification. Unfortunately, I rarely receive a response.
This clarifiation is needed in order to try not to repeat the mistake, but the lack of communication just leads to bewilderment and people end up asking on the thread, why their post has been removed.
In relation to posts going off topic, that's just life, it happens. A gentle reminder from the Hosts to keep the thread on topic is all that is needed.
I'd also like to reitereate what RozKing says
"One thing which annoys a lot of board members is where a provocative apparently first post gets past pre mod, and then the poster does a runner."
This has been happening a lot lately and has, in my opinion, caused some disruption, disgruntlement and rudeness from normally mild-mannered posters!
Overall, I enjoy it here (but can we have more 'smilies' please?).
Welcome to the boards!
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Hello all - regarding "off topic" threads it's understandable that sometimes threads will drift off topic.
But the POV boards are supposed to be about the BBC.
For example I have closed this thread because it's about Virgin Media and Virgin have their own community area.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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Hello Nick
I'm a regular visitor to the PoV MB's and have been for almost three years. It's usual for me to log onto PoV at least five days a week.
As you have asked for specific comments in answer to your questions, I will try to offer some positive and alternative thoughts:
1) Are they easy to use?
Yes, I think so. But there's always room for improvement!
2) What's good and bad about them?
For me, I would like to see a search facility so that you can find a specific topic of discussion; this would also help to alleviate the multiple threads we so often see.
I like the 'your discussions' and the ability we have to delete old threads, but having to do this via 'h2g2' is a bit of a long-winded process. Perhaps this could be improved upon?
3) Does it make sense to call them Points of View?
I don't think so. Even in the short space of time I have been posting, the general ethos of the Boards has changed somewhat. It's evident that many posters wish to discuss programmes which are on other channels (which is permitted) and also many posters engage in lighthearted discussions (about programmes) as opposed to exchanging opinions, so perhaps bearing this in mind, a new title should be considered. Perhaps 'TV Talk' or 'On the Box' or 'Telly Tattle' or 'What You Watch' or 'Telly Addicts' ... I could go on, but I won't!!
Thanks for giving us the opportunity to have some input.
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"But the POV boards are supposed to be about the BBC."
- We appreciate that, Nick. But what I'd say is, either remove/punish/stop ALL off-topic posts, or none of them. It's distressing to find *just* your posts have gone from an off-topic thread, or *just* your thread's been zapped, when it's flanked by dozens of others all similarly off-topic. The moderation seems not just random, but positively vindictive at times.
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I have been told to put my comments here rather than on the message boards. I was simply saying that in "explains the difference here" it sounds like moderators when in doubt about a post refer it to a host when it would seem more logical that this were the other way round.
I was also asked why I prefer message boards to blogs. I feel that blogs are too top down. While there is more direct connection to people in the BBC with responsibilities, they set the agenda and the framework for discussion, admittedly often on the basis of what they understand to be of public concern.
This is too much like radio itself. Furthermore, this is not necessarily the case. I have personally received great responses to my posts on the message boards this year from Annie Nightingale and Michael Rosen.
The message boards allow people to say what is topical to the listener and listener then speaks to listener. There is the understanding that an audience view - and I recognise that this is distinct from an individual view - is developed freely. We know that this is also heard in one way or another by BBC hosts, moderators, etc. Some of this will go further and thats useful too although most will probably not.
And this is probably the best option in a situation where accountability by the service providers to those who by law have to pay for them is paltry. A good start would be the election by public ballot of senior managers.
Additionally one would have viewers and listeners panels of people with no background in the industry - the service users and financiers - providing significant inputs into recommendations on standards, organisational structures, funding, salaries and a framework within which the BBC leadership approaches innovation.
Those with old punk ethics who are now high paid and dominate the established media may well think that repeating the Sex Pistols with Bill Grundy retains their links to us or taps in with modern day youth. The fact is that momentarily the value of that period in history was that it suggested that the media we pay for would need to be responsive rather than aloof.
Remember that this did not just apply to media types set in the 1940s but also liberal 60 types who never quite got over that fact. Those from the late 70s era have held on more rigidly.
They cannot accept that in these less black and white times the population sees radicalism as a combination of those eras, this one, greater liberalism in some respects, greater conservatism in others, and indeed what those who fought in WW2 actually wanted - proper from-the-ground-upwards democracy.
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Just want to revise one bit of this for the sake of clarification. Change:
"This is too much like radio itself. Furthermore, this is not necessarily the case. I have personally received great responses to my posts on the message boards this year from Annie Nightingale and Michael Rosen."
to:
"This is too much like radio itself. Furthermore, it is not necessarily the case that blogs lead to greater connection between the public and the broadcasters. I have personally received great responses to my posts on the message boards this year from Annie Nightingale and Michael Rosen."
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"How do they compare with your experience of the BBC's blogs"
I read some blogs and the comments, but I get the impression that they lack the spontaniety and the friendliness that is on the POV messageboard (and other BBC mb's).
I also percieve blogs as being the BBC's way of "setting the agenda" or maybe I'm just being suspicious!
After re-reading this post, I realise that one of the main factors for me about POV is, that it's FUN.
I occasionally look on the Ouch messageboard and find it interesting and thought-provoking at times.
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I think trolling is the biggest problem facing the POV messageboard. Although a number of trolls have been kicked off the board in recent times, a new generation has taken their place, egged on, in many cases, by former POV members orchestrating the posts from a distance (on private messageboards).
I think the moderation and hosting on POV need to get tougher, with a zero-tolerance attitude towards trolling.
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Hello Nick,
Having looked on here several times, I prefer the POV board. I find it easier to deal with, sorry.
I agree that it's easier for you to get opinions, and it is working, but it's not for me.
LG
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Hi Nick,
I have to say that's not a good start, already you've closed your own thread on the 'bbc.co.uk' board. I quite like the freedom to post where I like rather than being 'encouraged' - as you put it. Old BBC habits die hard I guess.
Here's your reply on your thread, for some reason there is a problem posting links here, which isn't a problem on the boards:
" I would like you to leave comments on the blog rather than the messageboard so that comments are all in one place, please.
And posting multiple threads on the same topic is (I think) against the house rules! Which is why I posted on this board, as it is one of the boards that I am hosting myself.
It would help me if you prefer message boards to blogs to leave a comment on the blog explaining why.
In order to encourage you to leave comments on the blog rather than here I am closing this thread."
And as I've said you can't even discuss the subject on the board which IS the subject itself.
NippieSweetie has it spot on saying that blogs are perceived as "the BBC's way of "setting the agenda".
Why do I prefer the board to a blog?
A reply to a blog goes through moderation, it's not a conversation in the way it is on the boards. It just smacks of control-freakery, the interaction between the BBC and the public shouldn't be organised in the same manner as a sheep pen. Think of it this way a messageboard is one big room full of people drifting in and out chiping in where they see something of interest, a blog in one of many small impersonal rooms.
I can see why the BBC prefer them though.
I thought this discussion was about the POV messageboard, not about blogging. I do hope that turning POV into a series of blogs isn't on the agenda, it didn't work for 606, it destroyed any sense of community - it's a shadow of what it once was.
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It would be helpful to know how the Points of View programme, and the BBC in general, view the PoV message boards.
Faye Tsar in 19. says the POV boards have been marginalised by the PoV programme. Indeed the current series has not mentioned the boards as a way of commenting - only citing mail/email/phone - and appears to be turning away from them as a source of input. Admittedly two weeks ago there were some screen shots of them and several aired remarks lifted from them, I think as a reaction to grumbles, but last weeks show was back to neither mentioning the boards nor quoting from them. Sometimes I recognise a post, but it appears in the programme as a direct communication using the author's real name.
So are the boards just for viewers to talk to each other? Or is there some part of the Beeb, if not the PoV programme, that is taking notice of what's being said there?
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Faye Tsar - comments on this blog and many other BBC blogs are "reactively" moderated.
This means the comment is usually only removed if someone requests it, after it's been published.
Not that different from a message board.
I like this kind of reactive moderation as it forces me to keep on top of comments and actively host the blog.
Here's an explanationfrom the BBC's editorial guidelines.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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I just thought I'd add to my above posts that the POV and Heroes boards are where I do the vast majority of my posting. I never frequent the blogs. This is my first time! :-)
Also, re the TV Board being only about the BBC. That's very restrictive, and not how it's worked in the past. We like to compare programmes from different channels, and talk to POVers about programmes on other channels.
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Thank you Nick, for that aside.
It's also true to say that blogs by Nick Robinson, Robert Peston, Jon Williams, Sinead Rocks, James Mallet, Helen Boaden, Richard Sambrook, Rome Hartman, Steve Herrmann, Rod McKensie, Jeremy Hillman, Roger Mosey, Su Maskell, and others, are pre-moderated.
Reactive moderation or premoderation, I still prefer the boards to blogs.
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Sorry - another one for me after seeing Nick's comment about explaining why I prefer msesageboards to blogs.
Messageboards are MUCH more accessible and user friendly, with many different threads on different topics.
Also, viewer-led or -started conversations are often much more relevant, interesting and "out there" to me than those started by BBC employees.
Please don't take away our messageboards!
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Hi Nick,
My reaction is simple - either use it or loose it.
The PoV threads are supposed to be about the BBC and people make (sometimes sensible) comments, but its like chucking a stone in the ocean.
There have been many threads where a great many people complain (very sensibily) about the same thing - example taken at random - the rescheduling of Vera Britten.
And there is no comment from Auntie.
I appreciate the freedom to comment and have done so, but I just don't see the point of it.
Am I missing something here ?
As you can't even search to find out what was said previously.
It just feels a bit tacked on.
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Erm blogs...........I have commented on blogs before but to people I know and am not moderated.........though I do understand why that is.
How to chase posters away - closing down threads for no good reason. Some posters are not computer savvy and only know and have got used to the mbs, not blogs. Me personally would have let people comment on the thread because really this is unknown territory and the mbs are known to them and are easy to use.
Plus to come in guns blazing - shutting down threads because they are off topic, but weren't before when we had two good hosts who knew how to treat us and let us not away with murder but gave us some leeway, the majority of posters know what to talk about and most know the taboos.
But I would say we do need someone on the boards, to look at the queries, and to be able to pick up any faults and report them without having the rigmarole of emailing the CCT - also to deal with the wums/trolls etc that do frequent the boards.
Finally welcome to the boards - I cannot promise that all will be as nice as me ;)
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The steps BBC follows when implementing changes.
1. Hint at upcoming changes and requesting general user comments regarding the current services.
2. Implement massive wholesale changes.
And that's it. Buy the time the customers gets any details of the changes, it's after the event and too late for the BBC to react specific comments due to 'technical difficulties'. For a case study see the destruction of the very well thought out and simple to use Radio 7 page.
Right now we're at the 'hinting' step. Here's an idea. Tell the customers that changes your planning to make BEFORE you make them, and BEFORE you've restructured and signed contracts etc.
Openness and honesty is the way forward
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Scrap POV. It's populated by nutcases who use it only to push far-right political opinions and think that as a result of two other nutjobs agreeing with them that means the entire population of the UK does.
It's a terrible way of collecting information about how users feel, is a hive of libellous and illegal material (which the users then have the audacity to bitch at when it's removed!) and serves no useful purpose.
It's time these people had to pay for their own server space instead of my licence fee doing it.
Phazer
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Hi, Nick, when you say you're discussing the way the POV boards should go, I'm filled with forboding.
I suspect it means they're all going to be shut down !
As the Today MB and the Radio 5 station board are no more, I think it would be a great pity if these boards were closed down.
Perhaps Radio 5 could abandon moving to Salford, then the BBC would have the money to run the MBs properly !
We definitely need a Host on the POV boards to run them properly, although I suspect no one who edits produces or is the presenter on any BBC T.V. or radio programme ever bothers to read our comments.
I really enjoy the POV boards PLEASE don't decimate them.
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Hi all,hello to you Nick and the other new hosts.
I'm not exactly the most articulate of people so I will try make this reasonably concise and understandable.
All I would say is that yes the boards need trimming here and there,too many threads on the same subject,too many threads on other channels shows but I feel this is down to lack of hosts or moderators of recent months.There's no-one to keep things in line,give us a gentle nudge when needed and keep things on topic where appropriate.It is quite amusing at times to go off topic sometimes but when it's posters slagging each other off it's quite nasty to see.I have posted on POV about such behaviour before as it got to me so much.Again there has been no-one to step in and pull people up on such matters.If there was a host that gave them a word,then pre modded posts and they still ignored it and were removed from the boards the I for one would be happy to see such protagonists gone.I'm all for banter and having different points of view but some people will always be 'difficult'.
I like the way the boards work.East to follow and use,a few more smileys would be nice though.I spend quite a bit of time on here on evenongs and weekends as I'm not always able to go out.There's some cracking people on here that I can 'talk' to and express the same or differing opinions,alot of fun is had on here too.Despite the hit and run posters,or trolling or wind up merchants,(delete as applicable) the POV board is great community.
I think what is needed overall(and I know I'm repeating myself here) is mods,sensible ones mind not jack boots,that will keep the conversation flowing,on topic,friendly,fun and inviting to future users.
Well,I hope that got my message across.All the best you yourselves on the host team and to my fellow posters. 8-)
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I pretty much concur with Post 41. I use the boards a lot and would hate to lose them.
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i can't seem to work out blogs! is the old format going to remain?!
if not, i don't think it's fair on people like me who don't understand or can't stand the blogging format!
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Oh dear
I don't know where I went wrong but when I first visited I had to log in and was told my Board name Ben 2856 and nickname RozKing were already taken so ended up being 666RozKing.
Maybe I didn't need to sign in?
Anyway, Nick I much prefer the boards. It takes ages navigating the blogs so I probably won't be using this blog again.
Sorry
Roz/Ben/666
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I've been a user of the PoV board for a couple of years now and have - until recently - thoroughly enjoyed it. At the present its previously good atmosphere seems to have been seriously damaged and I hope the new mod team can take steps to change this.
I can only reiterate the comments already made regarding the wisdom of allowing offensive posts and threads to remain and yet closing others that have a reasonable connection to the BBC or are at least entertaining. As other people have mentioned, there does seem to have been a rise in one-time posters starting controversial threads, never to be seen again. The impression received by me at least is that the board is being used to stimulate knee-jerk reactions from the posters, presumably to justify some decision the BBC already plan to make, or to stir up controversery for the sake of publicity. Please don't do this.
Personally I think it's a good idea to allow threads on ITV and C4/5 programmes to stay on the board - the recent comparisons between the Stephen Fry and Paul Merton travelogues have been interesting.
And can I add one more voice to the plea for a search facility? It would save a lot of time and a lot of duplicate threads.
Thank you for keeping us up to date with what is happening, and good luck!
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melody-jane and RozKing -
I'd be interested to know more about why you don't like the blogs format, why you find them hard to navigate and why you prefer the message board.
The only difference between a blog and a message board is that on a blog only the blog owner(s)can start a conversation, while on the POV boards any registered user can.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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Nick,that's why I think most would prefer boards to blogs.The whole idea of Points Of View is that it is *our* point of view not one doled out to us at a faceless corprations behest.Some may say that it is control of us and in this modern day where everyday life is littered with controls of one form or another this one would really stick in peoples craw.It's us the viewing and listening public that want to voice *our* views.
We are the audience.The audience that is told to phone in for votes and spend our money when it suits but if we try and stand up and voice our feelings against the BBC or it's employees we are cut down at the knees.Not that I'm against the Beeb but I should be given the right to reply on it's content if I see fit.After all it is a product that you 'sell' us and if it's defective I have the right to complain.
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"The only difference between a blog and a message board is that on a blog only the blog owner(s)can start a conversation, while on the POV boards any registered user can."
- But that's a HUGE difference, Nick, and represents a much more restricted form of discourse, in several directions.
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"The only difference between a blog and a message board is that on a blog only the blog owner(s)can start a conversation, while on the POV boards any registered user can."
Only , ONLY !?
Migh not seem such a big deal if you're the one in control I suppose Nick.
Is that the plan, Close the boards and replace them with blog comments?
Why don't you just blog the options your thinking of to 'sort out the boards' and allow us to comment on them?
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To The_Phazer, Message 39 :
Where did all that come from? Strikes me there’s only nutcase around here...
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That should read, ...only one nutcase around here...
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"I'd be interested to know more about why you don't like the blogs format, why you find them hard to navigate and why you prefer the message board."
For one thing, we get our own Discussions page so we can easily return to threads we have contributed to. This blog, for example, does not appear on My Discussions page.
"The only difference between a blog and a message board is that on a blog only the blog owner(s)can start a conversation, while on the POV boards any registered user can."
That is a HUGE fundamental difference!
If we're not allowed to start conversations then we're just passively responding to authorised POVs
And that's not the only difference. This blog is not very easy on the eye. I have to scroll down and try to find the last message that I read.
I got here via a link on the Television Board. I have no idea how to get here from anywhere else on the BBC site!
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NickReynolds (U11648404) , Yesterday
I would like you to leave comments on the blog rather than the messageboard so that comments are all in one place, please.
And posting multiple threads on the same topic is (I think) against the house rules! Which is why I posted on this board, as it is one of the boards that I am hosting myself.
It would help me if you prefer message boards to blogs to leave a comment on the blog explaining why.
It appears preferable to me to have blogs on the Meassage Board as they will be sorted into programs/headings etc rather than having them all jumbled up.
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I contribute to the POV messageboard on occasion, and enjoy reading the posts. Nevertheless, I'm hard-pressed to find a justification for their existence. The obvious candidates are:
1) They provide an opportunity for BBC staff to get feedback.
Perhaps, but there are much better tools (blogs, market research, etc) which can - and presumably are - employed to gather feedback in a more focused and less chaotic manner.
2) They enable viewers to discuss programmes amongst themselves.
Why is it the BBC's job to provide such a platform? There are alternatives out there, and creating an online discussion group is trivial if any niches are unfulfilled.
3) They provide a channel for viewer complaints.
Most of us know that they don't, and that there are official channels which should be followed.
4) They enable a sense of community.
Again, not Auntie's job. That community spirit can, and does, florish elsewhere on the internet.
So it seems to me that money is being spent on hardware, software, maintenance, bandwidth and moderators to provide a service which generates a flood of anti-moderation protests and is, in any case, a service which the BBC has no real reason to provide in the first place. I realise that this will probably not be a popular opinion - sorry about that - but I'd be interested to hear any counter-arguments in support of the provision of these messageboards.
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Although they may not be cost effective (I honestly don't know how you'd work that out), surely getting rid of the boards would be a step backwards?
The TV board is very well used, with lots of regular contributors. Every channel has official messageboards. The BBC has LOADS. I don't know if they intend to go down the route of having boards dedicated to individual programmes, but it seems to me that if they do do this then some fans will miss out, as it is up to the individual production staff as to whether they want to include online stuff as part of their production.
I'm rambling!
Basically I think a TV and Radio Board is a good and valued service. And cannot be replaced with blogs.
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Blah, blah, blah, "leave comments on my blog"
This isn't Facebook, mate.
And blogs are meant to notify you when someone replies to your comment... which this doesn't do. And you can't see whose replied to who as there's no tree structure.
0/10.
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I like the POV messageboard because i have found a place where i can discuss different aspects of TV programmes... from moaning about the shabby way that Medium is treated by the BBC to commenting on Strictly to discussing films on TV, without feeling out of place!
So keep up the good work :)
(It would be helpfull if the multiple threads on one topic could be sorted out if that's possible?)
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I would really like to have pro-active hosts again. Peta and Lee are much missed.
And a tighter check on multiple posts would be helpful.
But having said that......
The *last* thing I want is to have host-led posts like the 606 board. That would ruin the POV board. There is a good community on the board and to lose it would be a real shame.
But thank you for asking for our views.
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"The only difference between a blog and a message board is that on a blog only the blog owner(s)can start a conversation, while on the POV boards any registered user can.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)"
Exactly. Why take a step backwards?
Do you recognise this quote?
"It should foster a 'learning curve' of interactive engagement, encouraging audiences to move from passive consumption to active participation online."
I hope so, it's in one of your key documents!
Returning to a sytem where the BBC sets the topics/asks the questions is a retrograde step, and disempowers those you ought to be empowering.
Blogs are about the projection of a BBC's employee's work, interests and agenda. Not the audience's. Wrong move.
They also rely on BBC employees having a genuine interest in audience feedback, and devoting time and energy to initiating and managing the discussion.
Judging by the almost complete absence of producer, presenter and even Host contribution to the current boards, any blog system will fail to initiate discussions on 95% of the subjects that your board members are actually interested in.
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"The only difference between a blog and a message board is that on a blog only the blog owner(s)can start a conversation, while on the POV boards any registered user can.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)"
i'm sorry but that has to be the stupidest thing i've ever seen.
the whole point of the POV board and others is that we can talk about what WE want to discuss NOT what YOU want us to talk about.
Never mind Aunty, it's more like Big Brother. YOU WILL ONLY TALK ABOUT WHAT WE TELL YOU TO TALK ABOUT.
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I was a regular of the TV and radio board, I am much less so now.
The content is good, and don't have any issues about moderation or pre-mod etc. However the design of the boards is abysmal and by far the worst I have seen. No search? poor layout, cluttered, klunky, no quoting, expensive to maintain and run - and of course totally dis-connected from the BBC. It is merely somewhere to chat with others - NOT the BBC. In which case it might as well not be run by the BBC. Why the POV production team don't own the board is crazy.
Personally the only reason the content is superior to the Digital spy alternatives is the BBC brand that drives the traffic. If you wanted to slash costs merely offer the board to an independent host, licence the branding, put it on a professional design board and ensure it is consistently linked to from all BBC sites. Then it would work properly and save the BBC oodles.
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All I wanted to do was make comment about a particular show and its performance and have stumbled on this load of tripe. typical BBC. Look at TIMES blog system. Nothing could be simpler. Ditto ITV.com.
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Thanks to everyone for your comments. Do keep them coming.
I'm planning a follow up blog post for Friday of this week.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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"I'm planning a follow up blog post for Friday of this week."
That would be great, Nick.
Could you put a link to it on the messageboards, please?
I've thought of another reason why I prefer messageboards - smileys! ;-) (And quote boxes)
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As a new user I agree with the following previously mentioned ideas:
1) Create a search engine
2) Join up multiple threads
3) Keep the MB's
4) I have no other complaints.
Thanks
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Why a blog? The forums are an incomparably superior medium for the exchange of views on any topic.
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Message 54 from WombatDeath has prompted me to ask, why exactly did the BBC set up the POV messageboards in the first place? The administration and computing costs of doing it must have been considerable, so presumably there was a compelling reason. Has anything changed to make that reason, whatever it was, less valid now?
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As I think someone else has written a blog is more like a personal diary, with one person's view. A message board IMO is for anyone's views and a way of alerting someone to an upcoming event.
I read the boards and have contributed to various BBC boards for over 5 years but I probably wouldn't use a blog.
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Conversation doesn't seem to flow on a blog, whereas it does on messageboards.
I would also find it ironic if the POV boards were to disappear, given that they are a tool for discussing items on the medium that John Logie Baird invented!
As the POV home page says, "Welcome to Points of View, where you can share your thoughts and pose your questions on any aspect of the BBC via our message board." To my mind, blogs don't do this as they are not generated by us, the public.
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Message 68:
"Has anything changed to make that reason, whatever it was, less valid now?"
This series of POV has been notable for JV and the POV production being unable to bring themselves to give out the address of the board that's connected to it.
I can only think the POV Production team find it impossible to find enough bland praise for BBC's programmes on a weekly basis.
It's notable too that long time users of the board spotted that one or two first time users made it straight to the POV programme (even one filmed piece), and haven't been seen since.
The problem for the BBC is despite removing some long time posters who have been critical of the BBC (Or like me they are put on pre-mod for months on end, on this blog too BTW), despite manipulating the boards, the problem is that the BBC doesn't like what people on the boards are generally saying. It's just a case on 'it's my football'.
I think (from experience) that the BBC already have a good idea, if not a solid plan, to change POV. It's not a question of resources, otherwise The Archers 6 boards would have been 'rationalised' ages ago.
Look already how this situation has been dealt with. To alert posters on the POV television board, Nick Reynolds posted on the 'bbc.co.uk' board for them to come here. That thread has been closed (by Nick Reynolds) and is slipping down the board.
That's it! It's hardly 'encouraging' a wide range of opinions from regular POV posters is it?
This is as farcical as Chris Russell's disastrous remodelling of the 606 boards, into a pig's ear of a 606 blog.
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It's easy to see that the BBC are planning on shutting down the messageboards and, if they replace them at all, replace them with easily-censored blogs.
We've all seen the way that the messageboards have been marginalised and shut down (Great Debate, 606, Film, Weather, Science etc). Not so long ago bbc.co.uk proudly had a link from the front page to 300+ messageboards, roughly a third remain.
It seems that if the BBC can't lead, shape or censor the discussions themselves they just aren't interested.
btw Can we have some explanation of the apparent ditching of the messageboards by the POV programme? I mean, even in the accursed Wogan-era, we had a section of thoughts from the board on the programme (even though they were, of course, shown out of context or cherry-picked to show the BBC in a positive light).
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Message to Nick
You asked why I don't like blogs and find this difficult to navigate.
Basically it's because I have to scroll through the whole lot and there is no facility to reply.
The pov board is so much more user friendly.
Your initial post on bbc.co.uk should have been on pov too.
Why has your bbc.co.uk thread been closed?
Roz/Ben/666 (That's another thing, getting in here was confusing)
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Maybe they are planning on shutting them down, maybe they’re not.
Experience has shown us that it will happen without consultation with the customers. I.e. ‘Here’s what we’re planning to do, what are your thoughts?” And if they can’t manage it in the message boards, a medium specifically designed for engaging in discussion, what chances are there in other areas of the BBC.
My guess is some radical changes are about to happen. Nick’s blog was very negative, focusing on the minority of problem posts rather than the majority on-topic polite posts. He’s presenting the boards as a problem that needs fixing, rather than an asset or a service.
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Faye Tsar - I'm baffled by your reaction to me closing the thread on the POV board that links to this post.
It's easier for me if all comments are gathered together in one place i.e. on this blog, as opposed to being spread out in different places.
RozKing - It is trickier to respond to an individual comment in a blog than on the messageboard - but it can be done (in fact I'm doing so in the form of this comment!)
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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I'm not baffled with Faye Tsar's reaction. It's what WE are used to, posting on the messageboards and not the blogs. I still wouldn't have closed it. You might have got a bigger reaction if it had been left open.
It wouldn't have been spread out - its just that thread we would have contributed to.
Another thing with the thread being closed, if it goes of the front page it means we cannot bump it to stay on the front page. Remember Nick we know the messageboards.
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re some of the comments about having to comment here rather than the messageboards - its not that different from a messageboard, apart from the fact you can't quote the messages in your message. so i'm not sure why people are complaining!
but back on topic :)
the boards are good, there are some interesting discussions on there.
maybe there should be a "general" board for off topic chats and discussions to go on, that would allow people to talk about what they want to talk about without annoying anyone or clogging up the boards with things which aren't relevant to them.
that and get rid of those people who just feel the need to complain about things without any discussion of their merits and failures...but then again we get them everywhere don't we.
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I contribute quite frequently to the PoV message board. I also contribute less frequently contribute to the SCD and radio boards.
I think that more attention should be paid to threads where two, sometimes more, posters start having a private slanging match rather than keep to the subject of the thread. These posts are never modded, why?
I've been pulled up for far less in the past.
Also please can we be freed from the 3 minute ruling? It's so annoying. None of the other forums I belong to on the web have this "feature".
I also feel that some of the posters who strongly disagree with another post can be at best extremely rude and at worst very bullying and intimidating. I've been on the end of some of these and it's not very pleasant! I tend not to retaliate to those people. Everyone has an opinion but there's no need to get nasty with someone who doesn't have your point of view. Just agree to disagree.
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Well, I've just found out where my disappearing blog went. I've just clicked on "My Comments", and I see it is in Peter Clifton's whatever. I appear to have killed that one dead, as the ones who were interested must have wondered what I was talking about, and no-one else has posted.
I keep trying to sort out who has written what on here, and do find it difficult. It is not clear enough, and I fear you will not get the number of posts on here than on POV.
Do you really want to kill off POV, or are we worrying unnecessarily?
Thank you.
Lilian's Girl
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Message 73
Thanks Nick
The chances of finding any reply are slim unless you scroll through and read everything.
I never would have seen your reply as I only returned to see what angelictennisfan had written That was from link from Nippie's thread about this blog on pov board.
Roz x
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Nick, thank you for your reply.
It's easy to explain, the majority of traffic on the POV boards is the "Television" boards, the 'bbc.bo.uk' board has a fraction of the traffic.
As of 1.40 pm
bbc.co.uk board 2205 discussions
television board 53786 discussions
You have chosen to seek opinions on a less frequented board. You have closed the thread containing the link, meaning after a while it will slip down the board making it even less prominent.
I can't help thinking that if I were hoping to seriously canvas the widest range of opinion about the POV boards by it's users, I would have posted a thread on the POV Television board.
I would have thought with your undoubted experience and expertise in the internet you could manage to follow a thread on the boards as well as your own blog. It's hardly 'spread out in different places', it would be in two.
Some questions, are the restrictions (i.e. banning and pre-mod) carried over here from the boards, and is HTML disabled on this blog? Thank you.
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Faye, your comments about where the post with the link was sited are spot on. I'd never have thought of looking there.
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Curmy - which tells an interesting story in itself.
Faye - I've asked the Central Communities Team - who work across a lot of the boards and blogs helping with moderation issues - to look into the premodding of your account.
They can't see any reason why you should remain in premod and have returned your account to normal status.
If any of you have questions about your premod or banning on POV, you can contact the CCT via this form
Whether you get premodded or banned across all services or just one or two, more or less depends what you've done. Some users might have restrictions put on their account on just one service - for example, if a perfectly friendly contributor to the Food board couldn't stay within the rules whenever they posted on Religion, we might do this.
But in most cases, any restrictions will be applied across all the BBC services that use this software - nearly all of the blog comments, message boards and community sites like h2g2 and 606.
Hope that helps.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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Me again (surprise, surprise), but one of the things I've thought about is as well as having a link to the Info site (for making official complaints/comments) on the main POV homepage (under Air your views on the BBC), you could consider moving it to the far left, where FAQ's, Help with Registration etc, are. This would then link through to each page, as it does now.
This may make it easier for users to make official complaints/comments if they so wish, as I've noticed lately that several posters are asking things like "Do the BBC listen to what people are saying on these boards?" Well, in all likeliehood no, because it's not an official complaint/comment.
I also found it difficult finding an email address for the CCT when I was recently on pre-mod. I thought I would use the Contact Us button and it took me to Contacting Us, which I didn't think was appropriate for my query. I'll maybe add Nick's link above to my favourites, just in case I need it again!
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Sorry, meant to ask you Nick, just what IS the plan for the POV boards?
Post 72 states: "It's easy to see that the BBC are planning on shutting down the messageboards and, if they replace them at all, replace them with easily-censored blogs.
We've all seen the way that the messageboards have been marginalised and shut down (Great Debate, 606, Film, Weather, Science etc)."
Is this going to be the case, as a lot of users are speculating?
Thanks
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Hi Nick,
thank you for looking into my account, it's appreciated.
My question about the scope of the pre-mod and banning was prompted by regular posters I know who were banned at the same time (around July this year) as I was pre-modded. They would have liked (and have attempted) to contribute to this debate but still remain barred many months on.
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Nick - is this initiative connected to the service review of bbc.co.uk, which found some failings and deficiencies in feedback and interactivity?
If it is, could I suggest that you adopt a more structured approach to your consultation, ie:
Define the problem a bit better for us, than just the need to "sort out these boards"
Define the consultation process you are asking us to engage in
Do some thinking about the business process of which boards/blogs form a part. What are the outcomes the bbc and users seek? What processes do the BBC need to go through to make those outcomes happen? What are the roles within that process? What decisions/actions are required to make the process work? What information is needed to make those decisions/cations possible?
Then we can identify what sort of information needs to go into the system, and then, and only then, can we have a sensible discussion about whether blogs are better than boards, as a means of capturing and using information.
Otherwise, it just looks like a technical innovation to meet a non-technical problem, and we all know what a waste of time they can be.
Apologies if you've already done all this, it's just not apparent from anything I've seen here, or in hosts' posts on the boards.
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NippleSweetie - at the moment I have no plan other than to try and increase the level of hosting on the boards.
I am talking, listening and thinking.
Fist_of_Onan - it's not connected to the service licence review.
This is an informal conversation, not a formal consultation. But you make some good points which I will return to in future blog posts.
What outcome do you seek? What do you want the boards to do?
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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The one thing I dread Nick, is Host lead discussions on the POV boards.
Or just a blog run by the Host.
That's what they did on the Today boards, and then said because of the lack of input from the Posters , they were going to close the boards.
It's a slow death by a thousand cuts !
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Why do you dread a blog run by the Host?
Most blogs in general (and some BBC ones) are run by one person.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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I think that’s the key, Nick.
We don’t WANT a blog. We LIKE the boards.
We like to be able to start our own conversations, rather than having topics dictated to us by BBC employees.
Does that make sense?
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"What outcome do you seek? What do you want the boards to do?"
I'd like the boards to stay as they are except with much more visible host-presence, and more even-handed, transparent moderation done by those who see the posts in context rather than in isolation.
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Surely you are getting the message here?
people don't want a blog, despite you liking them, people want a message baord for all the reasons above -despite the BBC's MBs being poorer than professionally designed ones.
I agree that "ownership: of a blog is desireable, but that can equally apply to MBs. I would have thought the first thing the BBC would do is to cull all non-broadcast MBs, and then allocate a webpage and associated board to each programme, hosted by producers. Plus a generic TV board.
Blogs don't work for me
Can you state that the MB are safe in your hands? What is your remit?
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Why do you dread a blog run by the Host?
Most blogs in general (and some BBC ones) are run by one person.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
I dread a blog Nick, because the person running it decided the subjects we can talk about, and you're not going to start a conversation critical of anything in the BBC are you ?
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Hi Nick,
The POV board is the only one I use and I've been adding my four-penny-worth for a couple of years now.
I'm afraid I don't Blog. The boards and the 'regulars' who post on it are much more friendly although it could do with an up-date (search facility, more smilies, spelling check).
There is a rumour on the board that you are going to close it down, I would appreciate your clarification on this point.
Thanks,
vicrus
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Vicrus, I asked Nick
"just what IS the plan for the POV boards?
Post 72 states: "It's easy to see that the BBC are planning on shutting down the messageboards and, if they replace them at all, replace them with easily-censored blogs.
We've all seen the way that the messageboards have been marginalised and shut down (Great Debate, 606, Film, Weather, Science etc)."
Is this going to be the case, as a lot of users are speculating?"
His response was
"NippleSweetie - at the moment I have no plan other than to try and increase the level of hosting on the boards.
I am talking, listening and thinking."
(I can't remember the blog numbers though, but I've just noticed he's got my name wrong - it's okay Nick, you're not the first and won't be the last!)
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Hi
I was a regular poster for a few years but have only posted once in the last couple of months.
I simply lost faith in the running of the board.
I was put in pre-mod during the "Bonekickers Debacle" for disruptive posting on the Bonekickers Board despite never even registrering on it let alone posting there.
Running of the POV Board is inconsistent, chaotic and the House Rules are irrelevant because they are imposed at the random whim of goodness knows who. Maybe it will improve but I have severe doubts there is the will to allow even moderate or constructive criticism of The Mighty Monolith.
And...why these very matters cannot be discussed on bbc.co.uk baffles me as it supposed to be where one can discuss bbc content, search and messageboards??
Rick P
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NippieSweetie - my apologies for getting your name wrong. Blame my failing eye sight.
Curmy - I do both allow and even encourage comments and conversations (like this one!) which are critical of the BBC and also link to critical blog posts elsewhere through the Internet blog's delicious links.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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I'm reading all this with interest, and keeping up with where I left off by using a post-it note stuck nearby with the last post number on it. I can only link to here from a link in the PoV thread, so thanks to the person who put it in recently, and I did not have to search back for it.
I have not read of one person who wants the blog and to stop the messageboards.
Nick, how long are you leaving this blog here for our input? Will anything we say help you to see how we feel about this?
Does it really matter what we say, or how many *ways* we say it, or how many *times* we say it?
Do surveys really make any difference?
I have the feeling we are going to have the changes anyway, so all this blogging questionnaire business will be worthless.
Comments please...
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That's good to know Nick , thanks , but I still prefer Message Boards to blogs !
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Bethgem - it's not a questionnaire, it's a conversation.
And there is more to come. Watch for a new post from me on Friday.
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"LAUGH" for getting Nippie's name wrong - brilliant.
Secondly don't know whether to be filled with dread or excitement for tomorrows blog (shame that it is a blog though).
One final thing, I agree with others here that the moderation has to be fair across the boards. There has been some posts that have been taken off that okay were maybe off topic, but I can tell you there has been far worse left on. As I said a little bit of leeway should be given, like that warning of "hey guys can we kindly keep to the topic etc etc"
Maybe if we were to have an off topic thread that would help. Just like we have on bank holidays (except in Scotland where we have our own bank holidays and dinnae get them on the boards :-D)
Oh aye keep the messageboards they have smileys at least!
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"LAUGHING" for getting Nippie's name wrong - brilliant.
Secondly don't know whether to be filled with dread or excitement for tomorrows blog (shame that it is a blog though).
One final thing, I agree with others here that the moderation has to be fair across the boards. There has been some posts that have been taken off that okay were maybe off topic, but I can tell you there has been far worse left on. As I said a little bit of leeway should be given, like that warning of "hey guys can we kindly keep to the topic etc etc"
Maybe if we were to have an off topic thread that would help. Just like we have on bank holidays (except in Scotland where we have our own bank holidays and dinnae get them on the boards :-D)
Oh aye keep the messageboards they have smileys at least!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Strange di-on't know what happened here but it said it couldn't post - it has could you delete duplicates Nick?
Ta muchly.
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Good evening Nick,
Rumours are circulating that the POV message boards are doomed. I hope that this is not the case.
The POV message boards are easy to use. Having these all in one place makes sense. They're also easier on the eye rather than the often over-garish message boards created for specific programmes.
Issues surrounding the posting of inappropriate messages will always exist with the internet. The precautions in place work. Some messages will be 'off topic'. What harm does that honestly do?
The message boards allow US the viewers and licence fee payers to raise issues, provide feedback on programming - both good and bad - and the ability to discuss aspects of television and radio with fellow viewers/licence fee payers.
Blogs, on the other hand, are created by a select few and it is THEY who decide the agenda.
Blogs, as they are currntly presented, are difficult to navigate through and can be excessively long.
We, as licence fee payers should retain the freedom we currently have. It is OUR BBC, as we're constantly told.
Regards,
Spinning Head
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A suggestion, perhaps if it can be included in Friday's new post from Nick, he can post a link to what he considers a good example of the kind of blog he is considering for POV.
If blogs are so good, I would hope there is an example out there for us all to see.
From the responses so far, it would have to be pretty impressive system to convince a fair number of people.
I still think this blog could be better advertised to get the widest range of opinions.
You could ask Jeremy Vine to read out the link on Sunday!
"result!"
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I am one of the more elderly posters and fairly new to computers so my knowledge is quite basic. I'm afraid I know nothing about blogs but I have enjoyed the television board for the last two years although I haven't been posting regularly recently. If the troubles which have been mentioned previously can be sorted out I would much prefer to use the boards.
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One thing is undeniable: there is a perception that the BBC does not listen to comments by its viewers or listeners.
Now I'm sure that BBC spokespeople will assert that this is only a perception, but I'd suggest that it would be a very good idea if the BBC were very careful not to reinforce this idea.
Therefore I'd suggest that it might be wise, even at the risk of duplication, for the BBC responses on this blog to appear also on the corresponding POV forums.
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Hello Nick,
I would dearly love the old blue board back with a search function and longer opening hours. I have very fond memories.
Failing that, just the search function, posters are constantly being moaned at for starting new threads yet you have to search through pages and pages to see if one already exists.
Regards
Chezzie
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If the BBC were really against a bit of chat and off-topic nonsense every now and then they'd have closed down h2g2 (a chat room in all but name) and all those Archers boards... though even the BBC got embarrassed by the Danny Wallace boards (remember all those?) and closed them down.
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Nick - You asked what I want from message boards:
I want to see forums where users and BBC editorial/managerial staff share ideas and debate issues, and develop new outcomes for the BBC and listeners from those conversations.
I want to to see forums which are lead, controlled, managed and policed by their own users more, not less.
I want a transparency, consistency, and level headedness, in the application of moderation. This truly is all over the place. You have to experience it to understand it. I suggest you log on incognito, post on a few boards over several months, become part of the community, and see how moderation feels from the users' end.
I want Hosts that see each board as a community that neeeds facilitation, as it discusses and shares, and moves towards conclusions. You really would not believe the fury felt, particularly on the 6MMB, but to a lesser extent elsewhere, at the farce that Hosting has been, and the totally combatative approach to your own users. It is disgraceful, a real failure on the BBCs part to meet their stated objectives of fostering communities of people with shared interests. I don't have the quote to hand, but it's in your service licence.
Not once have I seen a host make a real effort to move a discussion towards a conclusion, then help the group find a way of engaging with the right people at the BBC.
Think of the last time you broke out into groups at a conference or team awayday. Each group has a facilitator. That's the role that hosts should be playing. Not on every thread. But on the ones where a serious debate develops, certainly.
Finaly, empower us. Most people are nice. Most people will behave like adults if they're treated like adults. Unlock the cages from time to time.
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And as an afterthought - You say this is not part of a response to the criticisms of feedback and interactivity, in the Trust's Service Review of bbc.co.uk.
In which case, what initiatives ARE being undertaken to address those shortcomings? The review was published 6 months ago.
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I use the POV message boards quite regularly and in the main enjoy it. I'm not a "blogger" so would not bother posting if the current POV format was abandoned.
There is room for improvement in as much as there is currently no search facility available - a huge drawback in this technological age. I'm convinced that having a search facility available would eliminate many duplicated threads.
There is no consistency when it comes to posts being removed. The criteria seems to change as often as the weather. Some posters are allowed to get away with the most vicious and nasty of personal comments, while others are pulled up for negative comments about a programme. The most obvious of these in recent memory being the savage culling of messages on the Bonekickers thread. This inconsistency causes confusion and sometimes anger.
One of the best aspects of the current POV TV board is being able to discuss programmes on a variety of channels, not just those of the BBC. I would hate to lose that facility.
In conclusion, I have enjoyed some lively and fun exchanges with some witty, opinionated and articulate posters - I would be very sad to lose that.
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I can only echo 110% what EssexBetty has said in her above post No.114.
Blogs are not user friendly and they kill discussion and debate.
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I agree with post 114 too.
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Nick,
I still don't understand why this is not being discussed on the Messagboards.
I only found out about this due to another poster helpfully leaving a link. How else were we supposed to see you questions?
I would not use a blog, but use the POV several times a day. I sign on to the boards wanting to discuss TV with people.
I want to see what CricketAngelMonroe thought of this weeks Merlin, I want to read Riverbank's view on Dr Who, Bidie-in's views on whether Bonekickers should get a new series (no by the way), and hear recommendations from posters who I "know" and who I am aware enjoy the same programmes as me.
No offense, but I don't really care what you want me to talk about. If you post a blog about the special effects in Dr Who, and I put up a message about how bad the acting was in that episode, does it get pulled for being "off topic".
You're not going to discuss "should Tess Daley be sacked for being rubbish" are you? Well I might want to.
So no don't get rid of the message boards. Just give us a search facility, delete multiple threads, and sort out the modding.
Thank you.
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Aw, gizmomoo! [hug]
(Though I think you know my views on Merlin! :-D)
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Aw, gizmomoo! If I could put smileys here there would be a hug for you.
(Though I think you know my views on Merlin! :-D)
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And there you see is a question.
Cricket has responded to my post with a very nice message.
On your blog Nick would this be "off topic"?
In messageboard land I would respond with something pleasant (or more likely sarcastic) and then we would go back to what we were discussing.
This creates community. Would this be allowed on your blog?
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Just to let you all know.
While I was planning to write a follow up post today about the POV message boards, I have to publish another one about Strictly message boards so I haven't started writing the POV one yet.
So the POV one won't be published today. I promise to put it up on Monday.
Thanks for your patience.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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Do you only write one TV blog a day?
What happens if the Blog you decide to write one day is about a TV programme that I have not watched? Do I not get to blog that day.
If you have blogged about the news, but I want to discuss The One Show what do I do? Wait for you to write a blog about The One Show, so that I can bring up something that may have happened months ago?
Am I only allowed to discuss what you want to discuss?
Thanks.
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"While I was planning to write a follow up post today about the POV message boards, I have to publish another one about Strictly message boards so I haven't started writing the POV one yet.
So the POV one won't be published today. I promise to put it up on Monday.
Thanks for your patience.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)"
I think this illustrates very well what everyone has been saying about the difference between a staff-lead blog, and a user-lead message board.
We're stuck discussing this topic until you come up with another one. Disempowerment. Not good. Not the future of BBC Interactive, surely?
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It's your BBC.Or so we're told.
You make it what it is.Or so we're told.
Getting rid of the MB's would be a mistake.I'm interested to see what is afoot.
Gears.
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It will be interesting, particularly in the face of such overwhelming opinion pointing to the same answers.
1. People mostly accept the need moderation, but would like more consistency.
2. People nearly always prefer message boards over blogs because it gives them the power to choose the topics for discussion.
I think something that would help with the perception moderation issues, would be if the particular rule that message broke was included in the notification email.
A couple of times I've had posts removed and not had any idea why. Receiving an email with a list of 10 possibilities is meaningless.
I'm not suggesting an explanation, just a 'pick list' for the mods to choose from when they remove the post.
I think this could also help with consistence. The mod would have to choose a specific reason for banning a post, it would be a moments 'sense check' before taking action.
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Nick, with a couple more days, albeit the weekend, to think about things, you could ask the POV Production Team (strangely not that visible on the POV boards during the series, I wonder why?) about the Points Of View Coverage Board.
What was that I hear you ask? Precisely, it was a device where the POV Production Team chose the subjects and posters were encouraged to add their points of view separately from the POV Television board.
One poster on that board said, "I don't think it is a responsibility of anyone on the messageboard team, to influence comment by posters. In fact they should be "falling over backwards" to ensure that what is considered for inclusion on the TV programme are the spontaneous responses to BBC programmes which are posted on the POV Messageboard, (we only need one). This is the only way to assess objectively, the impressions of the viewer either positive or negative."
It's a shame that poster is still banned and in addition looking at those old threads, the number of posters who have since (for whatever reason) decided to no longer post on POV.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbpointsofview/F3886587
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Why does the POV board close at 10.00 whereas other boards are open all the time?
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Please don;t scrap the message boards.I'm a "silver surfer" (very much so),and I use the boards regularly.They're informative,amusing and easy to use. If they went,I wouldn't bother about the BBC website any more.
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I suspect Faye because they think the POV boards have to be more closely moderated, than for example the zillions of Archers boards !And they can't afford to pay the Mods 24/7
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OOPS sorry I meant Nippie .
Let's hope they don't close them foxglove, but the BBC isn't reknowned for taking notice of the licence fee payers !
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Now you see Curmy, if blogs had the 'quote post' facility, you may not have made that mistake!
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Exactly Nippie, I don't have time to say "OOPS" and edit out my mistake !
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I agree with Nippie's question about the PoV board opening times.
10pm is quite an unnecessarily conservative time to 'shut down' all those who wish to natter about TV! How about considering an extension until 12pm?
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Hi Nick
I'm not going over the same ground as previous posters, whom I think have clearly indicated THEIR preference for messageboards, just as you made clear your preference for blogs, "personally, I'm more of a blogger". There have been many very good postings to this blog, giving reasons for the posters' preference for messageboards, and I genuinely hope that you take on board (no pun intended) these well-thought out views. Blogging is fine WHEN you only have one or two topics a day, but there are a great number of television programmes a day. Is the plan for just ONE blog on a chosen programme of the day, or a blog for every BBC programme???? (Not feasible IMO), so not VIEWERS' Points of View in the true sense of the meaning. This might explain the question about the name of the board. (I would put an "erm" smiley here if blogs had them). This, ability for the VIEWER to post a thread on one, or many programmes, is the area where messageboards come into their forté, allowing fast-flowing, and oft-changing topics. And I think even a blogger would have to admit that POV board in particular does not fit into the usual remit for blogging - with the diversity and number of programmes benefitting from viewer-led threads. It's worked well (even with it's obvious faults) for a good few years now, and tweaking would improve it, but blogging would kill it (which I think most posters are fearful of)
What I am more interested in, is why you WON'T post on the POV board, which is the subject of this blog, so that the community THERE can discuss this in THEIR environment? I feel that if I was engaging with a group of people about THEIR messageboard, I would do it where THEY are, and using the format which they are comfortable with. It was RIGHT to post to bbc.co.uk board, but THEN it was WRONG to close THAT thread. I think it would have made sense to post to POV board ONE posting with a link to bbc.co.uk, and hold the conversation on THAT board and NOT on this blog (which is alien to most of the posters). You could have closed the POV thread, so as not to have multiple threads. I think the way you have dealt with this "conversation", shows your lack of understanding of etiquette on messageboards. YOU are discussing OUR environment, so YOU decide that messageboard posters MUST post to YOUR blog. I'm not sure if it is because you are in your comfort zone, and have control of the blog, or if you don't trust posters to keep "on topic" on a messageboard. (Again I would put a "sad" smiley to indicate "hurt feelings", and a "wink" smiley to lighten that comment.)
There IS a problem with how BBC is perceived interacting with it's viewers/messageboarders etc, and the route you are taking this exercise fits in with that perception, of not listening to said viewers/messageboarders - haste ye to the POV board (wink smiley). They're YOUR new community, and they're already there, waiting for you to join THEM.
You ask about preferences of blogs, BBC communities, radio messageboards, Editors blogs, etc, but it would seem from most messageboarders that they have very little knowledge of, or interest in most of those areas, preferring to post to the messageboards of THEIR choice (in fact quite a few have said that they wouldn't even be able to find this blog without the link from Nippie).
Probably MOST posters to POV came there after seeing a programme and wanting to comment, and then decided to stay, BECAUSE, they liked the set-up - it CAN be quite addictive.
Bloggers like blogging. Messageboarders like posting to messageboards, and I don't think you will convert the vast majority of messageboarders to become bloggers.
I have stopped posting to the boards, but when I saw this, I felt I had to post in support of the messageboarders who WILL stop posting altogether if the boards are changed for blogs.
God, blogging is a complete pain - it's taken me about ten times as long to write this posting as on a messageboard, plus all the scrolling up and down to edit (arghhhhhhhhhhh)
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Sorry Nick
Left my manners somewhere else, should have said, "Welcome, and hope you enjoy the messageboarding experience, but watch you don't become addicted" (rose smiley)
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At the outset, Nick asked "Do you prefer the radio messageboards or BBC News' Editors blog? Is the Strictly Come Dancing message board better?".
My answer is no, they're too "themed" for me (and I don't watch "Strictly", but if I did I could never use the Strictly boards with that revolting pink colour scheme!).
I like the idea of one TV board where anyone can start any TV-related topic under the sun, and by going to one place I can see and engage in all the "buzz" of the moment.
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I think all the MB's are very good. I am not sure what the blogs are, or if I have the time to look at them. There does seem a lot to look at.
One question, are they not all a waste of time and money?
What do they hope to achieve, what are they for?
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And now, with great confidence as message 137 came up.
I could ask you Nick, me owd pal, WHY am I totally banned from the POV MB for what appears to be:
for....ever? (If not longer.)
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Umm - I've tried a dozen time this afternoon to post a comment here, but my post disappears into the either every time.
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For the record I am not a fan of Blogs in general, which I associate with vanity publishing and stand-up artistes, though I do enjoy scrolling through the background information found on Sport Blogs while waiting for live text to update. I discern no difference between Blog content and other editorialising.
For me an informative messageboard with the quiet, consistent presence of a board Host who clearly demonstrates an even-handed understanding of the audience perspective greatly enhances the public face of the BBC. Keri Davies on The Archers boards is hugely respected for answering questions promptly, lightness of touch and genuine interest in how cyber-community works to grow audience loyalty - even when that audience is as free with its [informed] criticism as with its praise.
Although this is billed as an informal talk about POV boards it could hardly have been better designed to make wary posters downright suspicious: if we post here, on a Blog, does it mean that the opinions expressed are considered more valuable than identical comments arising from a discussion on a MB? Will the numbers responding here be used to illustrate the effectiveness of the Blogs as a focus group in comparison with the extraneous chatter found on MBs? [Mines a double macchiato, btw, what are you having?]
AlecMac in [125] posts most clearly why a messageboard is experienced as a genuine platform for audience reaction; niclaramartin [134] puts it slightly more strongly than I have but expresses perfectly the negative effect of 'them and us' which comes up so often.
There's a domino effect with the BBC website: I would not use these boards at all if they were not moderated; I would not choose the BBC news pages as my first point of reference of the day, the food pages as my personal recipe file, Radio 3 as my musical lucky bag and so on if it were not for the human connection, the interaction, the immediacy and variety of messageboard reactions found here which frame a commentary to the broadcast world.
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The worst thing about the BBC messageboards (TV, at least) is that there's absolutely no structure to them. So you're left ploughing through pages and pages of posts made in the last few hours in the hope of finding a thread you're interested in. But of course nobody does that, so they just start a new thread on the same subject, which just leads to more and more proliferation ... Plus there's no search facility to help you find pertinent threads. So, no, I hardly ever use the messageboards - I just don't have that much time to waste.
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So where is this blog we were promised then?
Typical management,say one thing,do another.I think he's trying to work out a nice way of saying the boards are up the swanny.
The thing I don't really understand is where did this all come from?Why has it become an issue regarding the boards?Seriously,have I missed something?Could it just be that it is simply a cost cutting idea from the Beeb and they want to get rid of the boards?
Nick,I await your blog.
Gears.
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Gears -
At the moment all we are doing is talking.
I've not decided anything yet.
So I don't think I've promised you a blog.
Would you like one? Would you prefer it?
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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Nic
You said you were going to post a reply on Monday.
It's Tuesday.
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Okay Nick, dont get short with the customers now...
Let's see. Ive used the boards for many years and they've been very good. I preferred the old tree format, but got over that when they changed. And now enjoy using these boards too.
I would say that 606 has become diabolical since it's switch a couple years ago to the articles format and would hope never to see that (style of idea) rolled out anywhere else.
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Quoted from Nic from Friday 21st:
Just to let you all know.
While I was planning to write a follow up post today about the POV message boards, I have to publish another one about Strictly message boards so I haven't started writing the POV one yet.
So the POV one won't be published today. I promise to put it up on Monday.
Thanks for your patience.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
Quoted from Nic TUesday 25th
So I don't think I've promised you a blog.
I'm confused.
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My next post is being put in the system now by Dave and will be published later today.
Apologies again for the delay.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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Umm Nick if this discussion was on the messageboard, surely you would be able to type and go, without waiting for techy mediation.
This would have the added advantage of looking and sounding rather more democratic in tone and intention.
I agree with Dr Baltar? [145] above that the old Howerd2 cgi-perl presentation was more intuitive and resulted [ime] in much, much less repetitive discussion.
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petal jam -
I would be able to type and go but:
I would be writing a very long message board post
and it takes time to check links, make sure quotes and spelling is correct and that my thoughts are marshalled into something that makes sense.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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I don't like blogs! This is my first experience with one....and I don't like it at all. I get giddy scrolling down, and I don't find the different messages easy to read.
I would be very disappointed if we had to resort to blogs, and if we do have a choice, which I hope we do, I would definitely prefer the POV Messageboard.
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Hi Nick
A few niggles I have found with blogging......
1. You scroll down reading comments, and then, to comment, yourself, you have to scroll back up, sign in, then scroll down again to "Post a Comment" before the weeeeeeeee box appears, which lets you comment.
2. You can't quote from a post further up, the way you can on messageboards (surrounded by a box), great facility, although the old-fashioned quote function was better than now. Simple quotations on a blog get lost in the text.
3. I was following your input easily because your comments were coming up in white background, whilst we plebs' comments were coming up in blue. Now, your postings are coming up the same as ours, so getting lost. Once signed in on a messageboard, the Host/Production/Communities names come up in colour, so easy to differentiate.
4. YOU seem to have forgotten that you promised to post on Monday. (To find that posting you would have to trawl through the whole blog comments to find that one)
5. It seems a bit more convoluted to post a comment to a blog than to post to a messageboard.
6. Other blogs I have been on have a limit to the number of strokes you can have in a comment.
7. I do NOT like people in authority (any) setting the agenda for commenting, so not keen on Blog Host being the only one who can post a subject for discussion.
Now for the plusses on messageboarding.
1. I can click on any posting and start typing after I sign in - the comments box comes up immediately without any scrolling.
2. If I want to comment on ONE particular posting, I can find that posting, and click on "reply". Whilst I am replying to THAT posting, it appears on my screen, so that I can dissect the comments, and compose MY posting, without having to remember the comments, or scroll up and down, replying to one part, and then scroll up and down, to reply to another part - just very very time-consuming, and a lot more complicated than posting to a messageboard.
3. Not sure about THIS blog, but others I have been on do not allow you to link to other threads/newspaper articles etc. You have to say, "Read the article in Daily Blab....."
4. Some viewers watch really obscure programmes, but, when you read their postings, it draws you to watch that programme - we would miss this if the Host decides what programmes to comment on.
Lots more reasons to like the present messageboard set-up of POV, but this posting is turning into a novel.
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Just found another annoying aspect to blogging. To sign out, you have to scroll up to exactlyyyyyyyy the right part of the blog to sign out, whereas on messageboards, the sign-out box is at the top of each and every page (twenty postings), so much much easier to exit.
Being Scottish I have been through the fiasco which was BBC Scotland's decision to close OUR boards, and replace them ALL, with ONE board, about ONE programme. That's right. We, Scots have a messageboard where we can discuss the TV programme River City, and nothing else. You can't talk about Eastenders or any other BBC programme. We can't even talk about other Scottish produced programmes like Still Game. Just one programme - River City. Now, this is probably very good if you are a fan of that programme, or if you are the Host (seeing as how there are only a few dozen posters who seem to frequent it), so easy to control. But, to the vast majority of BBC Scotland viewers, it is a travisty (the vast majority of posters appear to come from Glasgow area - the programme relates closely to Glasgow, BUT not other parts of Scotland). I don't watch THAT programme, so I have NO messageboard relating to Scotland which I can post to. This at the same time as the Archers Boardssssssss elsewhere.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbtalkscot/F2141458
So, if you restrict the viewers input, by Host led posting, or home in on a few programmes/series then you exclude the other viewers who don't watch that programme.
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Good points there Niclara.
Also say if a programme wasn't shown up in Scotland (its known to happen as BBC Scotland at times have their own agenda) we couldn't discuss it and as we can't discuss it on Talk Scotland because they have only the ONE mb about some crappy soap that is west orientated if would make them rather obsolete to us Scots.
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Hi Nick,
In all my jobs if I promised something to the customers, I'd move heaven and earth to make sure I delivered. It's an attitude that helps maintain credibility.
You could be amazingly busy right now or you could be lounging around in a silk dressing gown with a long cigarette holder in one hand and bowl of larks tongues in the other....It makes no difference, you should have managed to get your "blog post" on these boards on or around the promised time....let alone within 4 days.
Very very unimpressed
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Angelic
That's a really relevant point. Unless you are Scottish (where very often BBC Scotland opt-out) or live in another part of UK which does the same, it probably wouldn't enter your consciousness, that if, as a Host, you post a blog/thread about a programme, those opted out viewers would be unable to take part in that discussion.
Which raises another thought. Can someone explain to me how long a blog topic would appear? Would a blog on a programme appear and last just one day, or would it be there for a few days/weeks/months? And, after a couple of days would it disappear into the ether, so there would be no point in posting to it, or even reading it.
The BBC News boards have gone down a rather strange path. Just because you post to a thread, it doesn't necessarily mean that it will pop up to the top of the board. You have to remember which thread you are interested in, and then ferret it out. Of course what then happens, is that YOU may post to that thread, but it has disappeared down the board, and the conversation dies. Would blogging be the same? A limited time where the topic would be relevant, then it would disappear.
What is good about the messageboards is that a thread comes to the top, and if it is of interest it more or less stays on page one. If there is no interest it falls further and further down to be forgotten.......... BUT, it can be revived by any poster, at any time if they are interested in it. This often results in a new lease of life for a discussion (sometimes much later, and with more information having come to light about a programme/cast/news article etc). Of course if it is revived, and there is no interest, it will quickly disappear again.
That absolutely IS the main strength of messageboards run like POV. The VIEWER/S decide what they are interested in, and can revive that interest and let it run again if THEY choose. POV programme is an example of BBC deciding what WE want to talk about - and often we have expressed absolute amazement at the poor coverage of topics which have attracted vast numbers of postings and strength of feeling, whilst trivial or poorly posted to threads seem to get inordinate coverage.
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Yes Nick,you did promise a blog.4 days ago for *everyone* to see.
I will answer your question regarding if I like blogs.Simply put,no.It's too much messing about scrolling through all that length of posts.On the message boards it's cut up into sections by having different pages making it simpler to digest.
My overall feeling to the current situaton is documented early on in this blog so I won't go over all that again.I'm waiting to see what is in the pipeline,I'm hoping that the boards will stay.
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Yoo hoo Nick , have you forgotten Dave was going to put a message on here today ?
Do you all go home at 5pm ?
I find this blog very difficult to scroll up and down, far more tricky than simple message boards.
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At 10:20am on 25 Nov 2008, Nick_iPlayer_Host wrote:
My next post is being put in the system now by Dave and will be published later today.
Hi Dave. It's now 18:12. Does it really take you more than EIGHT hours to do this...?
If you have done it and I haven't seen it, then it shows up another problem of the 'blogs. I scrolled up and down the list of articles - none of which were interesting to me - a couple of times and nothing was there.
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I'm beginning to think they've forgotten about us (or hoping we'll go away).
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Actually Alec Mac rather than lounging around I have been spending the past four hours plugging and unplugging cables in a so far vain attempt to discover why all my internet connections do not work.
I am writing this from my local library.
The blog post still needs to be finished off so unless I can discover the fault and publish the post by midnight I'm afraid you will have to wait until Wednesday.
My apologies again. But I haven't forgotten.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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As a broadcast journalist who was trained by the BBC, I despair how difficult it is these days simply to tell the Corporation what we think! Auntie embraced the internet long before most folk, but even with this modern technology (to which licence payers contribute a vast amount), programme makers are becoming more and more remote from the audience.
I have spent fully 20 minutes this evening trying to tell the BBC my (not complimentary) views on the female commentator on last Saturday's MOTD, to no avail.
It seems to me that, after the Brand/Ross shenanigans, the drawbridge has been raised....
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This excuse has more plot holes than an episode of Bonekickers.
I thought that Nick's "...next post is being put in the system now by Dave..."
Now Nick says "The blog post still needs to be finished off".
I'm not going to get into a personal slagging match here. Just please tell us the truth, Nick... we're not monsters and we would understand, honest. Just talk to us!!
Believe it or not, we want to see a vibrant community flourish here as much as you do.
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Nick,have you tried jiggling the cord or switching it off and switching it on again?
That's what my techy department tell me to do and it never fails,especially when we change the hard drive and send out a new laptop! =P
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Hello Nick
Have to say, this stalling of the blog, because 1. You haven't finished composing it, 2. Dave has to enter it!!!!!!!!! 3. Your connection to the internet being "gubbed" etc shows clearly the failings of blogging.
For most posters here, it will be the first time they have experienced blogging, and what has effectively happened, is that the "conversation" has stalled because YOU are unable to post the comments you promised (on more than one occasion). On the messageboards, if a poster/Host goes missing, the thread/discussion continues unabated. This blog is now no different from what you perceived as a problem on the messageboards, in so far as, the posters are now "chatting" UNTIL you can come back with your comments. You now have first hand experience of what will happen if you impliment blogs for POV, instead of threads on a messageboard - no difference.
Which then focuses the reason for perhaps implementing blogs instead of messageboards - and that would be CONTROL, by the Host (and BBC), and NOT the unsolicited but valid views of the viewers/posters.
By the way, if it had been me who promised a blog posting, and then for whatever reason couldn't actually post it at the promised time, I would have simply said "this conversation is proving VERY interesting and enlightening, and I have decided to let it run a bit longer before I post my thoughts" (at this stage on a board I would post a wee smiley - so that you would know I was being lighthearted) - otherwise the words on the page come over as sharp and terse. A wee smiley here and there really helps get the TONE of the words over. That's one of the down sides of blogging - words are just words to be read any number of ways. Whereas the use of smileys indicates "tongue in cheek"/"angry"/"happy for you" etc and makes the meaning of the words much clearer. I originally hated them, but now see their worth.
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A lot of the comments in this blog have been about what we find NEGATIVE about blogs, so Nick, could you possibly do us Newbies to blogging, a favour, and tell us WHY YOU LIKE BLOGGING. You've asked us our views, but, we have nothing from you about what you like about blogging, and as this is meant to be a "conversation", it would be interesting to hear BOTH sides. That enlightenment might be interesting BEFORE you post THE posting.
If you haven't visited Nippies's thread on POV, I would say it is worth a look. Especially the very succinct comment by Officer Dibble at message 263 -
"I think the fundamental difference is that a message board is for a dialogue.
A blog is a monologue with comments."
Says it all really. (erm smiley)
Actually, one of the best things about messageboards, is when the posters DO start talking slightly off-topic, a lot of humour can appear which just makes the community gel. And that is the difference between blogging and messageboarding. You feel very much like individuals, talking to the Host on a blog, whereas, on a board, you are part of a community (with it's ups and downs, but still a community). It's simply down to the Hosts/Mods to pull a wayward conversation back on track with a gentle reminder to stay on topic. Hasn't happened often in the last few years. Of course when there was Points Askew, the bulk of the chatter was on that board, and POV tended to stay more on topic.
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Hmmmm. I think this has revealed everything about blogging that should make us nervous, as a form of "interactivity":
1. We're discussing what the BBC would like us to be thinking about, rather than what we would like the BBC to be thinking about.
2. There is no opportunity to branch this discusion out into new threads that might interest us.
3. It's very dependent on Nick to move the conversation on, and he hasn't posted when he said he would, which leaves us, impotent, nagging at him.
4. I've searched the various BBC documents that describe their ideal relationship with their listeners, and "impotent" doesn't appear anywhere.
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This is my first post to a blog.
Blimey, not good is it?
If this is the future of 'interactivity' count me out. Back to the messageboards for me.
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niclaramartin - it doesn't show the failings of blogs as such, it shows the failings of my internet connections. If I had tried to go on the POV boards I couldn't have done that either.
The discussion here seems to have continued on quite nicely without me.
How could a blog be turned into more of a dialogue?
Nick Reynolds (editor, Internet blog).
(writing this on the train going to work).
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Hi Nick,
Let's hope the BBC internet connection is working today!!
Adding to niclaramartin's question above, can you please let us know why you like blogging - or rather prefer blogging to messageboards?
Enjoy your train ride...
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Despite the hard time you’ve been getting Nick, you are to be applauded for starting and continuing this dialogue.
This is a fantastic example of genuine involvement of your customers early (hopefully) in the decision making process. And not only that it’s been done publicly, where we can all see the weight of opinion and judge how your team responds to these clear cut results.
It’s quite rare for this approach to be taken, in effect your handing over control to your customers. Often, for all the ‘inclusiveness’ blandishments, the inputs to user surveys are kept private, and data is sliced and diced until it fits the pre-planned strategy.
Keep up the good work.
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Good to know you havn't forgotten us Nick, even if looking for your message means scrolling up and down your blog (which is always a rather jerky procedure) !
I hate Corporate blogs, they're so impersonal, and you get no sense of community Also you can't discuss what you like as the blog owner leads the discussions !
It's like 1984 !
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I will talk about what I see as the advantages of blogs but not in the post I will publish today.
Which I am just about to start finishing off!
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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"I will talk about what I see as the advantages of blogs but not in the post I will publish today."
Can you not just jot down a few of your thoughts quickly? It doesn't have to be a new post, does it...?
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"How could a blog be turned into more of a dialogue?"
By allowing any registered user to publish a blog article I'd guess. Otherwise it's a BBC employee setting the agenda for what's supposed to be a feedback channel.
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This is my first experience of a "blog" - does anyone know what "blog" stands for?
On the subject of "blogs" - why are we restricted to a narrow column on the screen, when it would be much easier to read (and less to scroll through), if the column used 75% or more of the screen width? [confused smiley]
As with many contributors, I too hope that we keep the messageboards, rather than moving over to these "blogs".
Okay, so the POV messageboard could be improved - e.g. by including:
*search facility
*easy to follow instructions on how to quote
*extra "smilies"
*longer opening hours or at least a facility to type in your comment ready for the following day
*a spelling and grammar checker for those who need one
etc.
BUT that doesn't mean I want to get rid of messageboards, far from it. They keep me sane at work during lunchtime when there is nothing else to do, by letting me see that I'm not alone in having opinions on some topics.
There are quite a few programmes I would never have watched, if it hadn't been for posts and comments on the messageboard, and some I wish I hadn't. [tongue in cheek smiley]
It would be helpful if the BBC management took account of viewers opinions - at present the POV messageboard is more of a "talk amongst yourselves" messageboard, than anything with teeth.
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Hello Nick, safe journey I hope.
You missed the point I was making. The blog, HAD stalled. We were all tapping our toes and chatting amongst ourselves, whilst we waited on you getting back to us. This just wouldn't have happened on a messageboard. We would have moved onto a new thread, and posted there, until you came back with your posting.
It's the thought that there would be limited "threads"/blogs for people to post to, meaning that if you go AWOL, posters could be left twiddling their thumbs.
The fact is, there are different areas on BBC for Blogging or messageboards, and I think posters are worried that a confirmed blogger may feel that messageboards are not as good as blogging. The two are just different. Blogs appeal to some people, whilst messageboards appeal to others.
The posters have been very open about what they like about messageboards, and what they perceive as their failings. We have also commented on what we don't like about blogging (but that is only because we are more at home on messageboards). It's a bit like saying Man City fans should support Man United, or Ranger fans should support Celtic. We/they are coming from different positions regarding football teams/blogs/messageboards.
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cthatcham mesg. 175: "does anyone know hat "blog" stands for?"
- contraction of "web log". Early ones were just monologues really, sort of online diaries of the authors' day-to-day events & thoughts.
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My follow up post is published.
Thanks again for your patience.
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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Hi Nick,
I've just read your latest blog - over on the POV board (I can't find here!)
I appreciate what you're saying about discussions about the BBC should only be on a BBC forum. However, the Beeb is very high profile and does have a very public forum for comments on its programming - Points Of View. It's natural then for people to be drawn to the BBC forums. They're connected to that major brand (POV) and are easy to find. Try finding message boards on other websites, for instance.
It'll be a difficult balancing act. Encourage discussion, or drive people away...
Do comments on the message boards, at the moment, influence decisions within the BBC or any other broadcaster, for that matter?
Television is television, as far as a lot of people are concerned. They will want to raise points where they'll be discussed.
Ultimately, whose BBC is it? Is it ours or does it belong to those fortunate enough to run a blog?
Regards...
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My major problem is that host-driven boards would be the ultimate turn-off for me and a large majority of people.
Look at the last 2 blog entries - 25th Nov at 10:23am, and the next one at 4:02pm on the 26th. Not exactly frequent postings.
Tom Loosemore also said "Build web products that meet audience needs". By the looks of the threads you mentioned above, the audience needs an "off topic" thread.
Another thing "tomski" (shudders) says is "Admit your mistakes." Think about that one please, Nick.
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Nick, what you say is "wrong" with the POV boards - off topic and multiple threads - are these not things Hosts usually deal with?
Sorry to be so blunt, but one of the many joys about the boards is that posters feel free to post what they like, within the House Rules. And I always thought part of the Hosts' role was to remind posters of the Rules, take action against spammers an bullies, and basically manage the boards, but let the posters instigate and control most of the content?
Just out of interest, who are you trying to improve the boards for - the posters or the Hosts and mods?
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Hello Nick
Spinning_head's comment
"Do comments on the message boards, at the moment, influence decisions within the BBC or any other broadcaster, for that matter?"
Is actually very telling. It is VERY MUCH the feeling on POV board, that NOBODY at BBC is listening to us at all, or paying any attention to our postings. WHY should posters focus on QUALITY or "on topic" posting, when they effectively feel that BBC just wants them to "talk amongst themselves". Perhaps, if BBC actually didn't just pay lip service with the much ridiculed POV programme, but, DID look as if they were listening to us, then you would get more focused postings. POV board is such a lost opportunity for BBC. You reap what you sow.
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Has my last message been removed or cannot not see it? This blog is far too difficult to keep track of. I'm really starting to dislike it!
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cricket-Angelmonroe - I'm trying to improve the experience for the community, the hosts and the mods.
AlecMac - but if the BBC allowed anyone to write blogs wouldn't we be back where we started? Would non BBC people be willing to sign up to the BBC's editorial values?
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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Nick reynolds wrote:
"AlecMac - but if the BBC allowed anyone to write blogs wouldn't we be back where we started? Would non BBC people be willing to sign up to the BBC's editorial values?
"
Nick - what is wrong with "back where we started"? You haven't defined the problem you are trying to solve.., just an unspecified need to "sort them out". It's a poor way to start a debate - we don't actually know what we're discussing. please clarify what you think the problems with the boards are, and who they are a problem for.
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Fist_of_Onan - what I mean is that is the BBC allowed anyone to run a blog then how would we ensure they were on topic?
Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog)
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There go again,blog,blog,blog.It would seem to me that the blog format is coming like it or not.You have said that you want to make it easy for host and moderator,easily achieved when *you* are the ones running the blog.This is backed up by your statement that you don't want any Tom,Dick or Harry starting conversations.
As said by Fist you aren't actually saying why you are trying to 'fix' the boards.There's been no clue as to what the 'problems' are.All I see Nick is that you are saying that you're holding a conversation with us as to what we want with the boards but then you make totally contradictory statements that you don't want us starting the conversation,you just want us to blindly follow the dictate.
Sorry,we're not dumb.You will lose lots of posters from here,but I am starting to think that's actually what you want.
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Dear Mr Reynolds
Concerning your question regarding blogs or MBs.
Prefacing my contribution with the comment that the Radio 4 messageboards (including the old Today boards) are an absolute disgrace – and always have been. Whoever holds the other ends of the reins to ‘Feedback’ has ensured that the endless complaints about their (R4) boards have all been suppressed. Complainst to the Graf Inquiry and BBC Trust were also a waste of time.
On preferences, messageboards are far superior to blogs for various reasons. The principal one is that the owners of BBC blogs love to give the impression that the correspondence relationship is far more personal than the MB conduit – and thus taken more seriously. Again, this is nonsense and a good example occurred here (1) when Jamie Angus’s statements were challenged and he ignored all the responses.
There was a similar outcome when complaints (2) were addressed to Leigh Aspin – Radio 4 interactive editor.
References
(1)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/11/todays_messageboards_part_2_1.html
see message 8
(2) http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio4/F2766774?thread=5819607
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Nick
In your introduction you state "Our moderators put in a lot of effort to ensure that inappropriate comments are removed from the boards". I have to challenge this statement as it simply is not true any more.
For many months the moderators (such as exist now) have been very inconsistent with their removal of inappropriate comments. Some threads are running at the moment that quite obviously break many of the house rules and yet the mods persistently ignore them. Other, more inoffensive and topical threads have been closed down, with no prior warning. I believe that this is a cynical ploy to discredit the messageboards and thus make it much easier for the BBC to close the POV boards down.
With respect - I'm sorry to say that your cavalier attitude thus far to a subject dear to the hearts of many posters to the messageboards is yet another example of the BBC treating its viewers, listeners, licence fee payers (whatever) like children.
Thank you
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I've lost the plot now. It is the question of "are the mb's going to be closed down" that is still outstanding. Until that is addressed then there is no point in speculating further. It is implied, that's all. Being in limbo over this decision is frustrating, to say the very least.
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I've lost the plot now. It is the question of "are the mb's going to be closed down" that is still outstanding. Until that is addressed then there is no point in speculating further. It is implied, that's all. Being in limbo over this decision is frustrating, to say the very least.
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Excuse the double entry, but there was a message given, after the first attempt to post, saying that there was an error as I had typed in a yikes smiley!
I took it out and sent the post again and still there was an error. So, I deleted the smiley and also put in line spaces above and below the message, and it then accepted it.
What a daft place this is!
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Close the boards.
They are an utter UTTER waste of everyone's time. The boards are dominated by a handful of obsessives who seem to think that BBC funding is well spent providing them with a chatroom.
It isn't.
Close the boards and put the money you save towards making a TV programme or something.
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Hi Bimby
Still reading the messageboards eh. Did you find your way here through the link on Television or have you started reading blogs too?
I haven't been on the boards for a few weeks, but, have got my teeth into THIS topic.
Nick, as Bimby says, not everyone likes/feels confident about messageboarding, and, some messageboarders just like to post and run. THIS is one of Bimby's more constructive postings, and he is perfectly entitled to his position.
There are actually a lot of people who don't contribute at all to BBC POV, but, simply read the postings, (like a newspaper) - I do the same on Digital Spy. I am NOT a member there, but I do enjoy reading the postings. So, I think it is important that the POV boards ARE welcoming places, where viewers who don't necessarily want to join, can still enjoy reading through ALL the boards. THAT is actually a very big plus for BBC. There are lots of boards out there, where you can ONLY read certain sections of the boards, UNTIL you become a member.
So, a definite pat on the back for relative ease of use/full access/diversity and quite pleasant reading format.
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I don't think much of blogs - it took me a while to read all the comments on the first "blog" until I spotted the link to Nick Reynold's latest "blog" - this one - within one of his comments.
But confusingly when you scroll up you can see all the comments from the first "blog" - which is why we're currently at an unwieldy
195 long entries.
I've read several of these entries a few times, when I've forgotten where I left off the previous day, trying to spot which comments I haven't read yet. This is something which can be avoided on a messageboard because we have page 1 of 35, etc.. Also if you have posted a comment you can look at "your discussions" to spot where to start reading from again. "Blogs" to the uninitiated, seem very user-unfriendly.
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Hi Nick,
It would be handy to have a search facility on the POV Boards which would save numerous posts on the same topic / program.
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Nick,
With respect, you are trying to fit what should be a community discussion, into a corporate blog.
Newsflash: despite your personal preference for blogging, it doesn't work, but more to the point it SHOULDN'T work in this specific case.
This is why:
Corporate blogs are little more than back-slapping PR announcements. "We're really excited about our new product..." or "We're going to be..." with comments not really being of any interest: for example, "Sounds great! Signed, The Chairman."
Technical blogs are more along the lines of "I had to do this and this is how I did it" with comments elaborating on the information provided at the start.
Personal blogs... well, they're a mix of the two.
Clearly, blogs are about "pushing" information from the author to an audience, and then inviting comment from the audience to the author.
Your blog article either falls into the Corporate Blogsphere, or the Technical Blogsphere.
Here's the REAL problem you at the BBC need to address. It would be better placed in a Community Discussion but because of your personal preference, you thought it'd be better on a blog. That's why you now have an unthreaded, unpaged, unmanageable document that would take a ream of A4 to print off. You can't even filter it down to the last 7 days' comments only.
So why didn't you do it on a community discussion board? Well, the simplest answer is that the BBC doesn't really have a modern community discussion board which would've made that decision a no-brainer.
Instead it has something that looks very much like a crippled forum that was specified nearly a decade ago.
Take a look at discussion boards using a range of technologies - PHPBB, Snitz, WebCrossing and the like. PlusNet's for example. The're YEARS ahead of the BBC in formatting, layout, management, and functionality.
Most discussion forums of that ilk are heirarchical, easily navigable, easily searchable, topic replies are properly threaded, threads are properly paged, users can bookmark threads for quick access to them, and pick up on any thread from their last post, or the last post they read.
There are clear distinct categories, some of which are restricted and others which aren't...
And some of them are very tightly managed so that thread topics are properly categorised and aren't duplicated.
Everything you want, is available in a standard PHP BB. All you need to do is get the rules right, and wrap it in a sensible moderation policy.
Right now, a one-man band with hardly any technical expertise, can set up a freebie PHP setup in less than a day on any webspace that allows it, and the result would be a neater, slicker discussion board with more functionality than the Beeb's bespoke solution can offer, and that's after the Beeb have thrown hundreds of thousands of pounds at it.
It's actually the BBC who loses out the most because of this.
Because it leads people like you to think you're better off conducting community discussions on blogs.
Which is only the right conclusion as long as your discussion board technology is an outdated dog's breakfast that's painful to navigate and lacks the features you really need.
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While I obviously disagree with you that the Internet blog is "little more than back slapping PR announcements" some of your other points are well made.
Personally I don't find comments on this blog unreadable, and actually find them easier to read than the POV boards - but this may be just me, or due to the technical limitations you outline.
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Addendum:
My first connection to the internet was in 1993, I was designing websites from 1995 onwards, I have been posting on discussion boards and blogs regularly since 1997, and I am now an IT security (identity & access management, web access control etc) consultant.
Just in case you thought my last post had anything do do with personal preference, it doesn't. I use technical blogs extensively, corporate blogs from time to time, but for my money blogs are only good if there's a good discussion board to back them up.
PlusNet have got the right combination with their Community subsite (http://community.plus.net/).
Instead of spraying the communications channels around all over the heirarchy. it's all found in one place with the portal showing the latest posts on each blog and a list of the latest topics on the discussion forum, and the latest comments.
Blogs are used for top-down communication with feedback.
Alongside that, they have a discussion board. PN have split it out to include their own locked discussions for communication to the customer base; a Feedback section; informal tech support and advice channels, Q&A, and an off-topic section.
There's no reason why the BBC cannot do something similar: have a community subsite, set up dedicated conversation areas in the discussion board, have a portal page that makes it easy to see an overview, and simply link to those areas from other parts of the BBC site (e.g. have a "Radio 4 Community Discussion" link on the Radio 4 home page which points to the corresponding forum folder, and a link to search the community blogsphere for articles tagged "Radio 4").
Regards,
Tim
PS: I would've added that information to the last post to save double-posting, but blogs being blogs there's no "edit" option.
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Nick,
Not only do I find the comments on the blog MUCH harder to read than the boards, but I also find it tiresome to navigate.
There is no clue as to how many posts have been added since I last looked at it (unlike the messageboards), which means scrolling through a hundred plus, small font messages trying to find where I left off!
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197. At 3:57pm on 06 Dec 2008, tstaddon wrote:
Nick,
With respect, you are trying to fit what should be a community discussion, into a corporate blog.
Newsflash: despite your personal preference for blogging, it doesn't work, but more to the point it SHOULDN'T work in this specific case.
This is why:
Corporate blogs are little more than back-slapping PR announcements. "We're really excited about our new product..." or "We're going to be..." with comments not really being of any interest: for example, "Sounds great! Signed, The Chairman."
Technical blogs are more along the lines of "I had to do this and this is how I did it" with comments elaborating on the information provided at the start.
Personal blogs... well, they're a mix of the two.
Clearly, blogs are about "pushing" information from the author to an audience, and then inviting comment from the audience to the author.
Your blog article either falls into the Corporate Blogsphere, or the Technical Blogsphere.
Here's the REAL problem you at the BBC need to address. It would be better placed in a Community Discussion but because of your personal preference, you thought it'd be better on a blog. That's why you now have an unthreaded, unpaged, unmanageable document that would take a ream of A4 to print off. You can't even filter it down to the last 7 days' comments only.
So why didn't you do it on a community discussion board? Well, the simplest answer is that the BBC doesn't really have a modern community discussion board which would've made that decision a no-brainer.
Instead it has something that looks very much like a crippled forum that was specified nearly a decade ago.
Take a look at discussion boards using a range of technologies - PHPBB, Snitz, WebCrossing and the like. PlusNet's for example. The're YEARS ahead of the BBC in formatting, layout, management, and functionality.
Most discussion forums of that ilk are heirarchical, easily navigable, easily searchable, topic replies are properly threaded, threads are properly paged, users can bookmark threads for quick access to them, and pick up on any thread from their last post, or the last post they read.
There are clear distinct categories, some of which are restricted and others which aren't...
And some of them are very tightly managed so that thread topics are properly categorised and aren't duplicated.
Everything you want, is available in a standard PHP BB. All you need to do is get the rules right, and wrap it in a sensible moderation policy.
Right now, a one-man band with hardly any technical expertise, can set up a freebie PHP setup in less than a day on any webspace that allows it, and the result would be a neater, slicker discussion board with more functionality than the Beeb's bespoke solution can offer, and that's after the Beeb have thrown hundreds of thousands of pounds at it.
It's actually the BBC who loses out the most because of this.
Because it leads people like you to think you're better off conducting community discussions on blogs.
Which is only the right conclusion as long as your discussion board technology is an outdated dog's breakfast that's painful to navigate and lacks the features you really need.>>
Nick, all the above makes complete sense, and has been said many times before on the MBs for the past 4 years. If you could be bothered (and ironically, if the BBC MB were on a professional platform) you could have found out this for yourself without resorting to a back-water blog. the only thing I disagree with is the estimate of cost. The BBC message boards have cost £millions not hundreds of thousands. That is an outrage, especially as the MB is still less capable than a 5 year old PHP BB. ....and please don't say that the BBC MB is so big that only bespoke will do...this is only because of the legacy of flawed design criteria insisted that we have one log-in between different forum - pointless for the majority, and still doesn't work for blogs! - so effectively we have one huge database that is 99% obsolete as no-one can search it and it is hidden from Google. So when I want to seamlessly jaunt from POV to parenting forum and then on to Gaming I will rejoice at the BBC's foresight...it won't happen.
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Blogs are for you (the writer) to expound your opinions rather than to solicit ours (the readers), which is why they are obviously A Good Thing from your point of view but a pretty Worthless Thing from ours.
The idea of a message board is almost like a community of individual bloggers, where the Opening Post is the 'blog article' and the responses in the rest of the thread are similar to the comments on a blog post.
It would be a very good idea if BBC staff (those not charged with hosting or moderating the boards) actually read them once in a while in order to gain feedback about the shows they themselves work on.
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I'm probably easily confused, but I really think this blog thing is very confusing. I saw a blog the other day, and would quite like to go and have another look, but I haven't the faintest idea how to.
The messageboard format is much better - one click and you're there every time.
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Watch my lips, please.
I've just found this by browsing the PoV MB.
My response:
Thanks, but no thanks.
This format might suit your purposes but it has no interest for me so I'll spare you further comments which would be ignored whether or not they had merit.
(gets coat)
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I used to comment on the Beeb quite a lot, then gave up for a while as I couldn't remember my log in details. I decided to reregister and was amazed to see you'd cut most of the boards out. I understand why you did so but I don't agree with your reasoning.
Would be nice if there were somewhere to comment about Radio 5 sports for example.
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It would be nice to find a message board to comment on 5live in general.
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Thank you.. http://www.gelsesli.com/ sesli sohbet
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Nick... how come you delete our posts within seconds of the faintest whiff of off-topicality, yet the BBC boards have been serially spammed (like Post 207) and all of them remain on 30+ BBC blogs? Does anyone read BBC blogs? what are the statistics?
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