The red squirrel debate: Have your say
| 19:45 UK time, Friday, 6 November 2009
Red squirrel conservation, like most wildlife conservation, is a tricky and ongoing subject with many variables. Some argue the reds are doomed by the grey invasion. Others believe careful planning can save our native species.
But what do you think? Should we save red squirrels at all costs? Are greys pests or now as much a part of our natural surroundings as their red cousins? What methods should we use to save the reds? Please post a comment below.
Below we've laid out what we think are the key arguments and facts in the debate.
Red squirrels are Britain's only native squirrel. They were once widespread across the UK, but over the last fifty years they have undergone a huge decline, with their range now restricted to Scotland, Northern Ireland, Northern England and small pockets of Wales and southern England.
The grey squirrel threat
It is widely accepted that a significant factor in the decline of red squirrels was the introduction of grey squirrels to the UK in the late nineteenth century. Grey squirrels threaten red squirrels in two main ways.
Firstly, they compete with red squirrels for food. Grey squirrels eat seven times more food per hectare than red squirrels. They aggressively compete with the red squirrels for food, and they also eat food before it is ripe enough for red squirrels to eat.
Secondly, grey squirrels carry a virus called squirrelpox (SQPV), which they are immune to, but which is deadly to red squirrels. It's estimated that 60% of grey squirrels carry the virus and they suffer no ill effects from it, but if a red squirrel catches it, it will be dead within weeks. Grey squirrels have probably evolved immunity to the virus, but because it is new to red squirrels, they are not immune, and it is lethal to them on an epidemic scale.
There's more detail on how the greys threaten the reds on the Save Our Squirrels website [PDF].
Conservationists now estimate that there are only about 160,000 red squirrels nationwide compared with 2.5 million greys.
Plans to save them
So what do we do about this? Like all conservation issues there has been a lot of debate about the best course of action. It has been argued that red squirrels are a lost cause, and it is too late to save them.
But it shouldn't be argued that it's natural selection, because the problem is undoubtedly man-made. Red squirrels were never equipped to compete with grey squirrels, having evolved in Europe alone. Grey squirrels in contrast came from a highly competitive environment in North America.
One way to conserve the reds is to control the greys. There are two main approaches here. Some believe in attempting to eliminate grey squirrels altogether. But this would require huge resources, would be controversial, and may not even be possible. The favoured approach is to protect red squirrels in designated areas and cull grey squirrels in the buffer-zone areas surrounding them.
Grey squirrel control is carried as humanely as possible, by trained, licensed individuals. A clever trapping system based on weight balance is used. It means that red squirrels can escape from the traps, but the greys can't. The traps are covered, so the squirrels in them aren't exposed but are kept warm and dry, and checked twice a day.
These red squirrel refuges are also managed and enhanced in other ways. For example, ensuring they have the correct composition of tree species to suit red squirrels as much as possible.
Recently money has also been put into study to map grey squirrel control efforts that are currently in place. This will take into account work by landowners, institutions, volunteers and local groups, with the aim of gaining a greater understanding of existing work and helping with future red squirrel conservation strategies.
There are also other long term strategies that are being researched. For example scientists are working on a vaccine for red squirrels against the squirrelpox virus, but this is thought to still be about ten years off.
There has also been work into mass sterilisation programmes to stop the spread of grey squirrels. But there are many complications with this. For one, how do you feed the medication to grey squirrels without affecting other rodents? Difficult, considering that squirrels cache a lot of food.
So what do you think? Please tell us below.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~48~RS~)
Comments
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I firmly believe in saving the reds, even if that means eradicating the greys since they are non native. We have allowed too many species to become extinct in this country already and once the reds are gone there will be no way to bring them back since they can't live alongside the greys.
We absolutely have save the reds!
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I think we should definitely save the reds. If we have to cull ruddy ducks to save French white faced ducks then surely we can do the same to grey squirrels to save our gorgeous NATIVE reds. I agree, we have to save the reds!
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Just watching Autumnwatch and GOBSMACKED by this Chris bloke's nievety RE: Grey Squirrel control. They are a SERIOUS pest to forestry trees and can cause huge economic loss to landowners if they aren't controlled as they will strip bark from broadleaves (usually expensive timber).
What a waste of an opportunity BBC.
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I am studying art, and I find red squirrels much more interesting to draw, as they are so beautiful. We absolutely MUST save the red squirrels!
Annie x
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I love red squirrels I always thought that the grey ones killed them but kate proved m wrong!
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I agree, we should keep trying to save the reds, I have never seen a red and even though the grey being as cute as they are it would be a real treat to actually see at least one in my liftime.
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I also believe the red squirrel must be saved as this significant decline has occured in little over a hundred years. It is a shame to kill the greys but it must be done and hopefully this will lead to the steady increase and reintroduction of reds across the British Isles just the way it should be.
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I've never seen a Red Squirrel and probably never will.
I've been holidaying in the Lakes for years and only see Greys.
As a wildlife lover, can I justify the widespread killing of Greys to hang on to a species which is at a natural disadvantage ?
Course I can't, like I couldn't justify the killing of other successful creatures to give others a chance.
This debate has been going on for years and I can't ever see a solution short of a vaccine for the Greys.
Otherwise what is expected to happen, continued killing of Grey squirrels to keep small pockets of a relatively unknown squirrel alive ?
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i say spray the gray squirrels red!!
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If we used the same philosophy re humans we would be called racist. It is not the poor grey squirrels fault that they are non native, they did not bring themselves here, they were brught here by man now man wants to cal the vermin and kill them. It makes me sick! They are sentient beings that have a right to live. Anyone who thinks that killing them (and let us be clear, they are trapped and to our shame, it is legal to put them in a sack and club them, a method if used to cats or dogs would be deemed prosecutable)is acceptable needs to get a conscience! Leave them alone and let nature take it's course. Why is the answer always to kill animals.
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We shouldn't do anything. It's our fault in the first place that the Greys are here. We shouldn't blame them for a human mistake. They are adapting which is what all creatures do and we shouldn't be meddling with that just because we like the look of the reds!
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Killing grey squirrels for the sake of reds? This is racism at its worst. Relocate the pesky critters if you must, but don't eliminate them. If you're going to intervene with Darwin's 'Survival of the fitest,' at least do it in a humane way.
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I agree with what Chris said; it only makes sense to manage greys at the interface between them and the reds. We just have to hope for the vaccine.
On a completely unrelated note, someone has been telling porkies about Mr Packham on Wikipedia; it says he is 49. No way, say both me and my fiancee! He can't be more than late 30's ;-)
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as a wildlife lo9ver i must say i love the grey squirrels , but i must say i think we must save the reds in parts of the british isles where they live. i have never seen a red as there are none in the area i live but maybe one day they will be as common as the greys.
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As usual Chris speaks sense - spot on
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i am a proud vegaterian and i think is is a disgrace that any animal is being killed in this day and age. Its murder at the end of the day who do humans think they are playing god! I sure there are better ways of saving a breed of animal rather then killing another. a life is a life!
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Neither Red nor Grey squirrels are native to the UK and it is not the grey squirrel which is responsible for the decline in Reds. It was the hundreds of shooting clubs across the UK which are clearly recorded (and rescorded boasting about) killing hundreds of thousands of red squirrels from the New Forest to the North of Scotland. The pox virus is also present in many mammals and the Red Squirrels were carrying this well before even meeting the Grey squirrels. Wanting to save one animal over another is just another form of racisim but based on animal species.
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I think the reds should be saved, but the greys and blacks (I think of them as a sub-species) should be kept in managed colonies, or captive if they can't be managed effectively. Maybe grey squirrel could be hunted as food to reduce the population.
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grey squirrels---just like londoners-uninvited and driving out the NATIVES-they must be eradicated.
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I think that the greys should only be culled in the places where they both live and compete for food.
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I think Packham was spot on. Its too late to eradicate the greys here in the Southern half of England. I'd love to have the Reds back here in Essex but it would be a waste of money and effort that could be better used on other conservation projects.
Besides there is one positive to greys: some are much more tame (especially in town and city parks) which has the same effect (perhaps a greater one) as feeding the ducks, introducing kids to wildlife and helping start an interest in nature.
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It was not the grey squirrel's choice to come to Britain and I think all animals have a right to live.I have a grey squirrel visiting my garden and get enormous pleasure from watching her. I don't think grey squirrels should be killed they should be encouraged to live away from red squirrels.
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I think you ought to get past the 'google eyed' phase and let nature take it's path. Evolution has always been survival of the stronger species and man should not intervene. If this means that red squirrels are limited to Brownsea Island then so be it. Just cut the emotion and accept that nature is a very tough place.
Chee
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Sorry to have to disagree with Chris. It is worth controlling greys in other areas. Get a couple in your loft and it costs £60 per visit from the pest control company!
Brian
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We should try to save our native red squirrels by eradicating the greys wherever possible. We regularly have red squirrels visiting our garden in the northern part of the Lake District near Cockermouth and it would be heartbreaking if they were lost because the greys took over their territory. There is a local group called Red Squirrel Watch who trap and dispose of any greys that appear and local residents can report any greys they see. All the locals who are interested in wildlife are behind this scheme.
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I respect Chris Packham immenseley and I can see why he said what he did BUT if the Grey hadn't been released into this country, wouldn't the reds be more widespread ?
I have no qualms about shooting Greys which appear in my garden. They are classed as vermin and should be treated so.
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I have to agree with comment 3 by Dan about the damage greys do to tree's and in areas where they are in the same woodland as reds its even more important to control them. Bring back the pine martin to the south east
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Dear Kate and others
On the last week of September this year, boyfriend and I were on a holiday resort in Southwestern Turkey near Kusadasi. We suddenly noticed little red squirrels, the place was full of them. We even took a few videio clip of them. The locals seem to regard them in the same way as we regard grey squirrels in London and were perplexed at our interests.
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I live in North Cumbria (Penrith area) and one of my favorite walks known as squirrel lane to 'locals' has had a noticable decline in reds...
A years a go it was guaranteed you would see a red sqirrel or two...
It realy is getting rare now :(
SAVE THE REDS!
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I agree that grey sqirrels have to be controlled, not just because of the threat to red squirrels, but also the harm to birds and the damage they cause to trees.
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I dont agree with killing the grey squirrels.My daughter found a trap in our local woodland last week which looked like a birds nestbox with two holes one at either end.Inside it was a spring trap which basically snaps the squirrels neck or back when it enters to get the bait of peanuts.How can this be classed as humane? I would rather see grey squirrels than none at all.I have not seen any red squirrels in this area for 30 years so what is the point?
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they have as much right as any animal on this island who are we to decide what animals live here and what dont
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I completely disagree with the culling of grey squirells in parts of the country, they have the same rights to survive as any other creature. There are feeders designed to only give food to red squirrels, so when used there is no danger of the reds loosing out. There are many reds surviving in continental europe, i was in the Lagow region in Poland and i saw plently of them, even though there were greys around. Recently in Dorking an albino squirrel died, although it was decended from greys, people have still been affected by the loss. Why can't the rest of the country see greys in the same way?
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I would love to see a red squirrel. I belive that you should conserably lower the amounts of gray squirrels, and try to let the reds live once more.
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Will killing off the greys not mean the natural predators will turn to the reds for food? And could this then not place the reds in more danger of being wiped out? I would say we need to slowly increase the reds numbers, as we try to lower the greys numbers. Just wiping out the greys will be a big mistake IMHO.
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Is it true that the grey squirrel eats many of our native birds eggs?And feeds on the chicks?This is a good reason to eradicate this furry tailed tree rat.
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I have shot over a hundred grey squirrels on the birdfeeders in our garden in the past year, as they are a relentless pest that wreak havoc on broadleaved woodland. Grey squirrels replaced the native red squirrels in the early 1940s in the woodlands of the Lower Wye Valley where we live. They do more than compromise timber values, public safety and the very future of oak and beech as major trees. They also have impacts on other fauna. The extinction of red squirrels is an obvious instance, but, as an aggressive predator, grey squirrels may be implicated in the widespread reduction in woodland bird populations, and they may also compete with dormice.
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If you're going to kill grey squirrels, why not eat them? Grey squirrel tastes like chicken and I would rather eat "free range" grey squirrels than intensively reared chickens which (despite the efforts of celebrities like Jamie Oliver and Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall) many people still consume.
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Dom. The disadvantage the Reds are at, is not natural, it is manmade. NONE of our land in the UK is natural anymore, it has all been influenced by man, and most of it still is (we put sheep out to graze, we killed large predators so deer populations need to be managed in other ways eg. culling).
Kathy. The same philosophy applied to humans would not be called racism, it is more akin to putting criminals in prison. Greys have contributed to the decline in songbird numbers, because they eat their eggs. They also cause serious damage to timber crops.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, our whole countryside is and has been managed for hundreds of years, it is NOT natural. If we were to leave well enough alone, our forests would dissapear and we'd be overrun with deer, because they no longer have natural predators here. Appologies to jump on other people's opinions but I study the issue of red/grey squirrels and spend a lot of my time trying to educate people and set out the facts.
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We have loads of red squirrels where we live. Just North of Lockerbie.
I would hate to see them destroyed by the greys. There is a grey squirrel call line (if you see one) and the same number also asks for sightings of sick reds. We just can't accept that the end is in sight for the reds!! We really can keep an indigenous species if we try.
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I was brought up in the Esthwaite valley with the red squirel. They are lovely and should be protected from the grey. I now live in Kent where we only have the grey squirel. There are no reds to protect. If we cull the grey here, we would have no squirels at all. I would like to see more areas with reds but where I live would not really suit the red, so I am glad to make do with grey.
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Whats Chris' thoughts on the damage that grey squirrels do to broad leaf tree's? also about his comment about controlling greys in non interface areas-surely if they are lethally controlled here then the greys would concentrate on re-populating this area than expanding their territories into red inhabitated areas.
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Non-native species should not be introduced, but once here we should not persicute them. I get great pleasure from watching grey squirrels in my garden, but sadly they are being wiped out by my unsympathetic neighbours. There are no reds in this area so there really is no justification to kill them.
I also worry how they are killed. There are live catch traps on sale in local DIY shops,and I know of two people who set them in their gardens. How these animals are then killed I don't know, but fear they are drowned. Surely this is inhumane and should be illegal. Squirrels are inteligent, brave and enchanting animals and should be respected not killed.
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I really don't mind, as long as the Reds don't die out.
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Could I suggest that the Autumn watch team contact the Isle of man government and recommend that they introduce red squirrels into their forrests which being mainly coniferous would be ideal for these delightfull animals. The Island has no squirrels to my knowledge and therefore would be a fantastic opportunity for the Manx tourist office to promote people to visit and see these wonderfull creatures as I have done in the Lake district.
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It would be a waste of money to now try and erradicate the introduced grey Squirrel after so long. We must control the greys particularly around areas of the Reds.The Reds need protection.
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I can remember when we had red squirrels in Epping Forest. It is such a shame to see them disappear from most of the country. Let us try and save those that we still have.
As a matter of interest we recently saw a black squirrel in the woods in Bedfordshire near Stockgrove Country Park.
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I agree that greys should be controlled in areas where there are still red squirrels. We visit the Lakes every year and it's a real pleasure to see a red squirrel, usually fleeting sightings. The grey should not be here, and we need to keep it out of the last refuges of our native red squirrels.
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I don't mind, as long as the Reds do not die out.
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As an Australian by birthright and newly abiding in the UK, I must say that the grey squirrels are absolutely beautiful in their own ways. I can see that the red squirrels are stunning too and should be looked after as they're native. I agree with Kathy above and from an outsider's viewpoint, see the beauty and the specialness of both.
If anything should be done, perhaps the greys should be sent back from whence they came? Surely Obama would be ok with taking them back?
In THIS way, none would be beaten and they'd get to go back to where they're meant to be. They'd be welcomed home even though the UK greys may roll their noses up at the weird accent their distant relatives have. ;)
Save the reds and give the greys a home where their kind will welcome their return! Everyone's happy!
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Sorry Chris,
but we should protect our native red squirrels and our native broadleave flora from the grey squirrel.
Without our intervention the red squirrel will become extinct in mainland England. There needs to be a concerted effort to control grey squirrels which are classed as a pest and save our native ecology, both fauna and flora.
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There's no need to kill grey squirrels to conserve red ones. Simply transport the greys that are caught to a part of the country where they're not going to compete with red ones. I think the economic argument put forward on the programme is irrelevant. These are sentient creatures and life is sacred.
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Simply,i believe ALL non-native species,e.g Grey Squirrel,Pheasant,Little Owl,Rabbit etc should be eradicated.Using the criteria of species extant in Britain after the end of last Ice-age.
Equally i believe ALL species wiped out by man should be reintroduced,e.g Wolf,Bear,Lynx,Beaver,using the same criteria.
Also this should be done globally.Mankind in our sad history has all too often arbitrarily decided which species we will or will not tolerate for whatever reason.
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'Trap and dispose' Janet! Don't you mean trap then club over the head. Let's be clear, this is reality. Nice words like 'dispose' might make you feel betterJanet but what really happens is gross cruelty. As for Godon who thinks it is OK to shoot greys as they are 'vermin', who decides what is vermin, I know what I think Gordon is!! May those who take part in and condone any form of animal cruelty reap what the sow.
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Here in the Netherlands the news today is that it will be forbidden to sell grey spuirrels and some other squirrels from petshops. See http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article1312792.ece/Verbod_op_drie_uitheemse_eekhoorns. The motivation is that they will escape from peoples home and that there is a danger that the same will happen as in the UK. People whom already posses grey squirrels will possibly be asked to sterilise them. In the Netherlands we do not have a problem yet, but I think it is to late to solve the problem in the UK. Keeping the grey as much as possible out of the remaining red area's will be the only option I think.
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I lived in Berlin for 8 years and only interacted with Red Squirels. When I say interacted with the Red, I do mean at close quarters, especially when he stole the apricots from the net as I tried to collect them from the tree beside my balcony. I lived in the city, not in the wilds as it currently seems you have to in Britain to see them.
Please work to eradicate the Grey throughout the whole of Britain, managing them is a joke!
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I agree with Dan that the grey squirrel does not only compete for red territory and spread disease but it is also an extremely effective destroyer of our hardwood trees and as such has become the Foresters nightmare. Beech trees are just one species which are almost impossible to grow now as the squirrels ringbark them at the base or in the canopy, sometimes after 30 years of growing and tending. They are so destructive that some species of tree may eventually disappear in time just like the reds.
Greys also like to eat songbirds eggs, another tangible problem. As a forestry student I attempted to eradicate greys from small woodlands around Hertfordshire but come autumn the new youngsters are on the move along hedgerow corridors and repopulating cleared woods.
We should work hard to stop the encroachment into red territory and then start working to claim back some ground. Relaxing grey squirrel control in recent years has already set back the defense of the red but people should be aware of the significance of the wider problems.
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i think something needs to be done to help the red squirrel's, but cant we do it in a humane way to the greys, can't the scientist think of a breeding programe for the red squirrels, were they are relised into the wild, we do it for some animals so why not these.
If te scientist's are good and can make a vaccine for us why cant they make one for the red's as well?
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I am deeply disturbed by Chris's failure to comment on a number of issues regarding the Grey Squirrel. They take eggs and chicks of small birds thus damaging the natural population, and anyone who has Acers with a nearby Grey Squirrel population will have experienced the damage they do to these trees (in particular) in spring/early summer. If anyone disputes this then they are utterly naive of the facts as I can produce photographic evidence.
It is impossible to eradicate them, but there must be some degree of control of number.
I am a game keeper and I could show you the damage where Grey Squirrels chew their way in to feed bins. Our programme to control (but not eradicate) the numbers has reduced this practice dramatically.
As with many introduced species, man introduced them, so many should control them.
And Chris - for goodness sake, present a fair and balanced arguament.
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I had a quick scan of some of the comments, i thought the person who killed 5 greys in our area was a lot - obviously wasn't compared with Ed Hutchings. It was always nice to see squirrels (even though they are grey) bouncing around our garden, it would have been nice to see them in the snow in Feb, alas too late. Last couple of months we have seen a grey or 2 in/near our garden - looks like some are moving in.
PS we hear both sexes of the Tawny owl at night-might be in our oak tree - hard to tell?
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I have been lucky enough to see red squirrels in the lake district. However, whilst in Coniston in July we saw a grey squirrel, I reported the sighting but the reaction I received was as though I was mad for reporting it.
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I have put up a couple of feeders and have reds coming almost daily, the most at one time was three, I had a visit from a grey but persuaded it to leave. Greys are not welcome here in Perthshire.
Craftycarver.
Pitlochry.
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I think we should save the red squirrel shoot all grey squirrel
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We should be prepared to help the red squirrels.
As a natural inhabitant of the british isles it would be a disgrace to let them get to the stage they may become extinct. The greys although a very watchable and naturally strong species is not natural to UK shores.
Come on you reds .
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The problems for the red squirels in Great Brittan are the same as in the Netherlands and also in other European countries.
The grey (or American) squirels over here in the Netherlands take the food away from the red ones, also their winter stock. And therefore the red ones don't have enough food to get through the winter and I think in a few years there will be no more red squirels.
But what to do to save the red ones? I can only think of killing the grey ones as much as possible, but on the other hand that is not so nice to do.
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Do any of you so called animal lovers understand what grey squirells actually do to our wildlife. They are not a native species. They desimate our song birds. There are many reasons why the grey squirrell needs to be controlled other than what you said on your show this evening.
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We should save the reds! I've seen reds on Brownsea Island and they are so beautiful! We should definitely control greys near to where reds are known to be.
SAVE THE REDS!
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I completely disagree with Chris Packham's comment about not killing the reds. We should follow the example of New Zealand who are striving to eradicate Possums to protext the flightless birds (they lay cyonide).
We created the problem here, just like we did in NZ and we need to put it right. If we don't follow this consistent policy then we'll end up with every continent having the same species (or just isolated pockets of indiginous species on islands). I think this is a very sad outlook.
Killing anything is never pleasant, but you have to look at the overall picture. This species is under serious threat. The only way to solve the problem is to eradicate the greys.
The problem is HOW?
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Reference was made on the programme to the emergence of a strain of black squirrel in the UK. Do these have the same characteristics as the aggressive and destructive black squirrels which infest parts of urban Toronto? If so, I suspect you wouldn't want them to proliferate here!
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Spot my error. The first line should say "I completely disagree with Chris Packham's comment about not killing the greys."
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The Para-Pox virus is a devastatingly painful and cruel way for Red squirrels to die; the virus blisters the soft parts of the squirrel; eyelids, lips, hands etc so in effect the red starves to death and is in immense pain. We must protect the reds and reduce greys.
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A few years ago my cat caught a grey squirrel and although he let it go my partner and I were concerned it was injured so we called the RSPCA who told us (and I quote) "we can come out if you like but if we do, even if it is not injured, we will have to kill it as they are classed as vermin" This horrified us. Yes we know greys are not indiginous, and it would be lovely to see the indiginous red, but surely seeing any squirrel is better than none!
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Dan, you need to get a dictionary and look of racism.. Destroying the planet, I think you will find, is being done very nicely by humans, should we put all of them in prison! Grey's are doing what is natural to them. We do not own the world or everything in it, they have a right to eat and survive just like you. I am SURE you will be a meat eater, should we then put you in prison then as you are responsible for the planet being used for grazing farm animals which produce methane gasses contributing to global warming. Yes, clearly using your premise you belong in prison yourself
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Well, at least a few people appreciate the extent of the greys impact.
Regarding comments on 'racism' and 'murder' please, this kind of anthropomorphic nonsense hinders true conservation.
Contraception? Vaccines? surely the money spent developing and administering these would be better spent on ammunition and traps, hey how about offering a bounty on the greys...
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As a nation, we allowed the introduction of the grey squirrel; as a nation, I believe that we should deal with the consequences of this action. But, 'culling'? No.
We brought them here, how about starting a charity to get funds together to take them back. We are capturing them anyway.
After all, people are working to bring the smooth haired bee back into the UK & that has not been present since 2000. It has survived in New Zealand & is now under threat there.
Think about it, we fly animals all over the world these days, we have the technology to do something here. That is to save both the red and grey squirrel.
Just a thought......
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Is it not the case that Grey Squirrels are preyed on by Pine Martens, therefore, a growing Grey Squirrel population will result in a conservation benefit for Pine Martens? And as Northern Ireland has both Greys Reds and Pine Martens in close proximity, it could be the place to watch.
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As a natural history photographer I have seen changes in our countryside and wildlife over the years and am lucky to live near red squirrels (though greys are nearer).My views are in favour of our native plants and animals, (yes,bring back the wolf and lynx). The only non-native species to have no detremental effect on our indigenous flora and fauna appears to be the little owl, all other non-native species NEEDS to be "removed", from rhododendron to grey squirrels.
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The majority of you who seem to be advocating killing greys don't seem to have much perspective. If your reasoning is that they are using the red's resources to survive you should look at yourselves. Humans have taken more resources and killed more species than any other animal, sometimes purely as sport. Surely we all deserve being culling by your logic.
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i like the grey squirels and they are certainly no harm to the reds because in my nans back there is a faimily of grey and red squirells and they dont fight or nothing
plus why should we kill them because they are adding more variety into are country's wildlife
and alot of other creatures in england are not english and we dont go around killing them and we wouldnt so why the squirel
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Grey squirrels have twice attacked our nesting (wild)Tawny Owl whose eggs were within 24 hours of hatching. This has been recorded on our cameras. Grey squirrels must be responsible for the loss of many bird nests.
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i think the greys have as much a right to life as any other animal.i live in scotland and have been lucky enough to see many red squirrels,but find greys equally as lovely and cute.
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I think that we should save the reds but don't kill the gorgeous greys! If no-one wants them, bring them to Buckinghamshire, I'd love them!!
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It has got to the stage now where we have to decide whether attempt to save the red squirrel by eliminating the gray squirrel or face the reality that gray squirrels are going to drive the reds to extinction in Britain.
If red squirrels are going to survive they need to be able to develop immunity to squirrelpox. They also need the required habitat. There is no point in saving a species if there is not the habitat for them to exist in. Simple. Habitat loss is the greatest reason for many species to become rare/extinct.
Grey Squirrels therefore have the advantage over the reds, they are immune to squirrelpox (being carriers only), can survive in more habitats and generally outcompete Reds.
If want to keep the red squirrel then you are going to have to face the hard truth that grey squirrels would need to be culled, immunisation for reds and sterilisation for greys will not work. It would be very costly and involves alot more human intervention. We dont know the effects of sterilisation of greys on the environment.
By only culling greys in areas around reds, it is creating an available space for more greys from other areas to move in. Therefore this does not solve the situation. Greys can travel large distances and therefore will gradually move in to occupy vacant habitats.
If you are not prepared to cull squirrels then you have to accept that the numbers of red squirrels will decline further and will no doubt result in extinction of red squirrel. Sometimes the truth does hurt, this then brings you back to the Panda debate!!
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If we complain about greys killing the wild birds, what about cats? A much bigger problem to bird survival. I frequently see squirrels and birds sharing the feeders in my garden - a cat wouldn't. What about other "introduced" species such as fallow deer? Wipe them out, too?
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How sad to hear all those so called" wildlife lovers "admit to shooting and poisoning a living wild creature whose only crime is to have been imported into this country by guess who HUMANS. As far as I am concerned we created this mess, and we should let nature sort itself out.
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I also totally disagree with Chris Packman - the native reds need saving and eradicating the greys across the country will give the reds the chance they need to repopulate.
There is nothing wrong with death and culling when it comes to real conservation - hard choices have to be made - but I don't expect anyone on the BBC to broadcast any other view than what Aunty Beeb would want to be associated with and Chris is hardly going to jeopardise his new job as the face of 'The Countryside according to what we want to show you - Watch'
The BBC has a great platform to educate the public about the real countryside but needs to show some steel and present some challenging questions to the public and let them make their own minds up.
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i also agree to tnimmo humans are the biggest killers not them
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basically, it's being racist to squirrels
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I agree with Kathy, grey squirrels have every right to life. We need to remember that many of us are not native either roman, norse, you name it most of us so called brits do not originate here, just like grey squirrels.
I and many others get a great deal of pleasure watching grey squirrels, the ones in my garden eat out of my hand. I find it hard to understand how anyone who calls themselves human can put them in a bag and club them to death, perhaps the world would be a better place if they were subjected to the same treatment?
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Survival of the fittest?
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Hey Dan,
What is racism?
'Racism is when someone thinks different colour make some better than others.
'Racists bully people who are different to them. They do this by name-calling or violence. '
Calling them Vermin, advocating violence i.e. killing greys, I think the above sums up lots of the comments on here very well!!!
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I live in West Lothian where the red squirrel was killed out by the mining industries and the greys were simply a kick in the teeth. I am one of the organisers of the Conservation Club of West Lothian, our symbol is the red squirrel. This reflex the high hopes we have for the possibility of red squirrels coming back to the Lothian. Our first plan of action is to improve the local broad leaf woodland, to access the current gray squirrel population and take measures to control it. Then based form the local zoo park we will slowly introduce a small semi- tame family group. The group will all be tagged and tracked from our five feeding stations in the woods. We believe that this they way forward for our area it is ambitious but conservation should not be stagnate but it should be an active and imaginative activity. I do not think that we can say that you should not "waste your time on somewhere, where red squirrels are gone from" but instead should have a more optimistic approach and understand how to reach your goals.
P.S the woman in the interview gave the wrong impression red squirrels do not pick carnivorous wood out of choice they pick them because the greys don’t do so well
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Simply cannot beleive that a presenter of Autumnwatch thinks that by not dealing with Grey Squirrels around the country is a good idea, also the fact that they say reds will never return to Surrey due to greys. The issue is now that the greys have moved from these areas and are now on the edge of the reds " AGAIN ". Stick your heads in the sand and watch the same pattern occur ! i am annoyed that the presenters have so much influence with their opinions as non country folk may beleive their every word. They also forgot to mention the damage greys do to other species such as songbirds etc. BBC get a team of both views please, not politically correct ones. A lot could be done if the media asked for it, rather than throw PC at us !
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There are two ways to look at this. The grey squirrel isn't native to this country and does pose various dangers to the reds so there is an argument for "controlling" or "eradicating" them in certain areas. However, killing them is surely going against nature which is all about the survival of the fittest isn't it? To clarify, I neither agree nor disagree with the actions being taken in Cumbria and further north. The key, I think, is to be sensible about it and not just make it an excuse for wholesale slaughter of what is still a beautiful creature.
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In addition to my previous comment, I just want to add, the presenters for the show tell a very different story than what actually happens within the British countryside. Maybe you should do more research and spend time with people who work and live in the country. Being a game keeper, I have to control the vermin in question daily, all as part of conservation of the land. Maybe you should look into the conservation on keepered ground compared to RSPCB reserves. I could go on and on....
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i think we should look after the red sqrrils they are so cool
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we love the red come on the red beat the greay
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I have read that grey squirrels eat mainly beech mast and acorns which reds cannot digest. Also don't reds live mainly in areas of dense forest because they like to stay mainly in the trees and therefore couldn't thrive in the south because the lack of forestation? Is this true?
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I am now part of a "Red Squirrel Preservation Society" here in Scotland 7 miles W of Aberdeen where just a few miles N of here in Carnie Woods is a colony of reds that we like to see continue. I find myself in an area with many trees the grays like - never seen a red.
Since late spring, in conjunction with wildlife rangers have eliminated 8 grays from this area. Am also told greys wreak havoc on small birds's nests
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And of courrse we get the 'countrydwellers' , gamekeepers, and so called 'conservationists' etc who arrogantly think that anyone who does not advocate killing animals cannot possibly be country dwellers themselves, no doubt they are also into such 'country pursuits' (blood sports) as fox hunting and hare coursing. All killing is wrong and those who make such patronising remarks need to get a conscience.
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In the Formby Squirrel reserve, Lancs, the demise of the Red Squirrel has been very sad..the population of the Red has been very dramatic.... When visiting a few years ago they were very very prominant..this year I went to visit the reserve and I didnt see one...not sure what can be done to ease the problem, but I wouldnt like to see the Greys reduced either... Brian C
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The reds will never come back down to the south of the country, even if you do murder all the greys, so in places like the lake district, if you see greys, send them down south! as i have already said, I'd love to see them!! Why are people so obsessed with reds anyway, if you killed all the greys they would be endangered!
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Clever Dick! I am sure killing 8 grey squirrels has made you very happy and made a huge difference!
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Seeing as Grey squirrels can be black, is it possible that in the future there could be different colours of Red Squirrels?
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Re Chris's comment that black squirrels are mutant greys.
I remember a programe recently where they confirmed that by DNA that Blacks are a different species to greys.
Blacks are seen regulary in N Herts , S Beds and Cambs.
They are also natives of NE USA
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The grey squirrel, as people rightly say is not a native of Britain, so I dont see the problem they should be classed along with Mink, Signal Crayfish etc, and should be eradicated as a pest.It is most annoying when something that has been a resident in the past like the Eagle Owl, needs a strong campaign to protect it, now that it is getting re-established, yet the Grey Squirrel which is a serious threat to the native Red escapes classification as a pest.
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Come to Dumfries and Galloway to see red squirrels! i have red squirrels every day in my garden. i would support culling grey squirrels in this area . However, I do not agree with culling grey squirrels in areas where there are no red squirrels - it is pointless.
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I agree with Chris,
Grey squirrels should be left if there are no reds there. But if there is reds in the area shoot them................... or trap them and treat it in a humane way please
Your love Faye
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I agree that we should save our native red squirrels, but was upset with the culing of the greys in Cumbria. Can't we trap them and release them onto a remote unhabited island somewhere?
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btw, go Kathy!!
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what do red squirrels eat ?
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I think there should be a cull of grey squirrels in areas where they are threateneing the red ones
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Naturalists talk of evolution, but when there's an evolutionary change, such as the red versus the grey squirrel, (and other mammal and bird species) they panic and want to hold back the natural progression of change. Leave the grey squirrel alone, and it will balance itself out one way or the other. That's the natural way.
Sion and Liz (Swansea)
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Dan, you care more about stupid timber than BRITISH wildlife?? I bet you're destroying the planet more than they are with cutting down your precious timber and helping with climate change.
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Hi Guys,
I think that grey squirrels should be controlled in areas where the reds live. Last weekend we stayed at a well known holiday park in Whinfell Cumbria and to my absolute joy I saw 4 red squirrels, my daughter had never ever seen them until last week and she was totally hooked on these enchanting shy creatures. PROTECT THE REDS IN THE HABITATS THAT THEY NOW LIVE.
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There is no argument, we should definately save the Red Squirrel and if we must cull the Greys to do this so be it.
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no shoot the grey squirrel thay are silly things thay take all the nuts
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I'm all for saving the red squirrels but there is a responsibility to look after the greys. They were introduced by man so it is up to us to manage their population. Wherever there are red or grey squirrels you will find people as they attract both young and old. That can only be a good thing as it encourages people to get involved with wildlife and appreciate its beauty.
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You can still be a wildlife lover and advocate the cullling of animals where appropriate. I am studying for a MSc in Wildlife Biology whereby at the moment we are doing a lot of work populattion analysis. We then have to use these skills to determine where conservation efforts are focused. We do not have the available resources to conserve every species in the world and therefore it is a fact of life that some species will have more effort go towards them than others.
Humans try and regard themselves as better than other organisms, which is what resulted in the state of the planet today. It is now our responsibilty to decide whether we should fix what we have destroyed in the past or conserve what species we have left on this planet. However with increasing human population resulting in habitat fragmentation and destruction then we have to accept that many species will not survive as there is not enough space for everything. Maybe we should just start culling humans and restrict the number of children parents can have, not save those who are only alive because of medical intervention.
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We live in Suffolk and have terrible trouble when it comes to our yearly nest box surveys. This year, 13 occupied nest boxes were all predated by Grey Squirrels. As a result, we are temporarily abandoning the project until we find a solution. Any advice?
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kathy is very down to earth she obviously is in touch with what goes on were she does'ent live.
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jst 1 more comment!!
If you wipe out greys, you would have to go to america to see them.
If reds die out, you would have to go to France, just over the channel.
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All this talk of only removing the greys in the areas where red's are. It's just a temporary solution. They will only spread again and the overall cost will be much greater in the long run. Look at the bigger picture. Solve the problem, don't just treat the symptoms.
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I'm still saying very seriously that if the greys are ruining the countries here in the UK, then send them home to America where they'll be loved and adored as they should be. How is this not the best solution? No greys will then need to die just to suit humans' beliefs and 'needs'. :) yes it's racism if we can stretch the definition this far and really, shouldn't people only be allowed to post if they can spell the words 'grey' and 'squirrel' correctly? ;)
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btw , I love pigeons, I also campaign for pigeons too, for humane non lethal control! see www.picasuk.com. There is ALWAYS another way to go, killing innocent creatures has no place in a civiised sociey.
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i think the greys should be culled they damage our woodland eat our birds eggs/young birds and carry the virus which kill our reds and are not native, no hesitation shoot on sight!
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TO EVERYONE WHO TRAPS GREY SQUIRRELS. DON'T CULL THEM, BRING THEM TO BUCKINGHAMSHIRE!!
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Firstly the Taking of ANY Animals Life is a serious issue, what ever the situation Food or pest Control, BUT I feel that the Red Squirrel groups are great at bringing the plight of the Reds to our attention but they are doing little direct action to Help the Reds.
Formby Point lost 90% of there numbers because of the greys getting in to the reserve before hand did little to stop them entering the so called "buffer grey free Zone" even after 12 months of phone calls from sightings.... the only safe places for Reds will be on Islands take for example Anglsea well done, direct action worked there...
I think all that want to help control these greys should buy a Kania trap and do there bit to work to control the greys....
My Group of 120 residents are making a differance and in a few years we will be the only INLAND area where Reds will have s Safe Coloney as we have water on 3 sides, by this time the Greys will have over run all other inland sights if the problem continues.
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and how would you know where I live Andy? Not making sweeping assumptions in an arrogant way are you?? Now why am I not surprised, no doubt you approve of killing animals.
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thnx 4 the comment Kathy. Pigeons are my favorite animal ♥ Bring them back to trafalgar square!!
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madofrotherwick: True there are differences in the prefered habitats of the two species. The reds are primarily creatures of the native pine forests, thus their range is restricted by this. Conifer plantations of course offer ideal habitat. But the greys are more adaptable and better able to utilise a wider range of food sources.
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Grey's are artificially introduced species. Artifically introduced by man; and they are playing havoc with the endemic ones. We have a responsibilty to protect these against our actions. Yes, natural selection will allow evolotion of the species most suited to survive in a particular eco-system, but we are effectively culling the natural species which has no time to evolove a defence against the artifciaclly introduced variety.
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Those who encourage people to trap and kill squirrels (as the idiot above)need to take heed of the new animal welfare act and realise that causing 'suffering' to an animal is an offence.
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Can't they catch the grey squirrels and simply move them away, instead of killing them? It would be a slow proscess but surley worth it.
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An abundance of red squirrels flourish in Argyll where the forestry commision have feeding stations set up in various wooded areas. They have also a rope red squirrel bridge specially made above a busy road attatched from tree to tree in Strachur Argyll.to stop the red squirrels from being killed by cars when they crossed the road. I watched for hours as numerous red squirrels used the bridge to croos road. fantastic watching. Dispatching the grey squirrel is for now an unsavoury part of land management and until the pharmacy companies can quickly produce a vacine agains pox,and conticeptive.
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The grey problem is our problem but we can't just sit back and let our native species be wiped out. I spend a lot of time in the lake district and a visit to the whinlater pass visitors centre will convice anyone that the reds must be saved and the greys controlled. I bought an air rifle and spent a year or so shooting greys that came into our east yorkshire garden in a desperate attempt to do something to help (and yes I have skinned, cooked and eaten a grey - and very nice too) I must say that a more scientific solution is really the answer BUT I firmly beleive that the unfortunate grey should be controlled nationwide and the reds reintroduced in a phased and controlled way. PS Who is going to pay for millions of greys to be shipped back to the states? Get your barbecues out!
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cull is just the "good" word for genocide.
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just how stupid are you man needs to contol the ecosystem now you townies
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The big difference between the red and grey squirrel that's not often mentioned is that the red doesn't urbanise. A red squirrel is not going to want to live in your attic, garage or little used shed. Greys by contrast love to live in these locations. Grey squirrels are now fully urbanised in Britain and undoubtedly have a significant impact on the population of urban and suburban song birds. A large study showed that grey squirrels kill far more song birds than domestic cats. I had to give up with nest boxes in my own suburban back garden once grey squirrels moved in. In North America where the grey squirrel originates, the grey has a natural predator, the Martin. There are no natural predators in southern England. I therefore disagree with Chris that there is no point in controlling the numbers of grey squirrels in southern England.
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As always those who condone cruelty think it is clever to proudly say they kill/skin/eat etc, what big, brave people they must be!!!
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Please do not forget the grey squirrel although beautiful is not just a threat to reds but also many birds (a recent survey sugests 80% declines in flycatchers in woodlands where greys have taken over). That's just one species. I've seen them raid nests myself (I spend a lot of time behind binoculars). Also they are a terrible nuisance to trees in plantations (we are supposed to be planting for the future), here they can decimate young trees. Please educate yourselves more before making comments. Yes it's too late to erradicate greys but we can exclude them from some zones and control them in others.
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look london need red squirrels but the Grey's are common bute reds are rare
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weare is bill oddie is better the chris
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weare is bill oddie is better then chris
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Don't people understand that Chris is right???
even if you kill greys, the reds would never want to move to london and how is a handfull of squirrels going to get down south england anyway??
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william, that isn't nice. I like Chris (and his gorgeous poodles!)
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andy, I live in the countryside, in the south of england, if we had no greys we would never get any squirrels
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DEFINATELY CONTROL GREY SQUIRRELS! THEY ARE CUTE, INTELLIGENT,AND A GREAT DIVERSION FOR THE HOUSEBOUND TO WATCH ON THEIR BIRD FEEDERS,BUT SINCE ERADICATING THEM FROM OUR SUBURBAN AREA (AND A SURFIT OF MAGPIES AND CARION CROWS) WE HAVE SEEN A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN THE SONGBIRD AND OTHER SMALL BIRD POPULATIONS -WE GET A BETTER DAWN CHORUS NOW INSTEAD OF JUST BLACKBIRDS,CROWS AND MAGGIES!
ITS A SHAME THEY CANT LIVE IN HARMONY,BUT GREYS HAVE ALL OF NORTH AMERICA AND REDS HAVE ONLY BLIGHTY TO BE SAFE IN
SAW AND GOT GREAT PICS OF REDS AT TEA ROOM IN A PARK IN SHANKLIN I.O.W !
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hey 'i love pigeons' i'm not making fun of animals deaths as you say but am prepared to eat what I kill - i guess you eat meat? What's the difference betweena squirrel and a sheep, cow or pig? \as usual with blogs the comments get more emotive - drink your wine AND CHILL
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I've seen red squirrels in Finland where they are very widespread. We visited an island called Seurasaari where there are no cars allowed, and the red squirrels there are very tame and not at all nervous around humans. They take nuts and seeds from your hands and you can watch them burying them in the ground. It would be wonderful to see the red squirrels increase in numbers in the UK, and I would be in favour of protecting areas where there are existing red squirrel populations, even if it means culling, but I don't feel that destroying the entire grey squirrel population is feasible.
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How very sad that people see things in so many different ways. We have a native animal on the verge of dieing out which needs to be protected but which cant protect itself. Yet people seem worried about an animal which is not native to this country which is proven to be doing most of the damage being persecuted in the protection of our native species. Wake up and smell the roses folks. If the red squirrel goes on that premise we may as well call time for anything that cant defend itself.. What a strange country we live in!!
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We must save the red squirrels - please before the greys over run our beautiful reds. The grey squirrels do not belong in the UK.
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...go to peru and eat a guinea pig... where has our reasoned debate about a genuine conservation issue gone to? As usual it has been hijacked by one or two militant bunny huggers with nothing relevant or useful to add.
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I grew up in a lovely part of Kent near the sea and I am now well past 50. When I was young the only squirrels were red squirrels and it is frightening how quickly things change. Now I still live in the same part of Kent but have grey squirrels in my garden. Not so pretty but still part of the local wild life.
Who is to judge what is best?
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Hunting is an essential part of farming/land mangement/animal husbandry/protection of other species. i have a terrible problem with fox's and rats i have exhausted other methods without culling and they have simply not worked. its irelevant where people live ie in a city/town/countryside hunting has to be done we all benefit
Fox hunting will continue and it is a shame hunting with hounds is banned, now it is done with the quad bikes and guns after the hounds flush fox out.which way is more natural? Antis would be better educated on hunting if they new the facts.the commission use words like DISPATCH aka KILL to soften the offense that could be caused. it sounds better then kill. doesnt it?
They dispatch the grey squirrel not just to protect the red squirrel to protect certain woods.
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'I guess you eat meat', do you David. Why should you assume that? There are many people who live their lives without killing other creatures you know, try it sometime. We have heard it all before, it is OK to kill so long as you eat it, I manage to be quite healthy without killing or eating any other beings so do not ease your conscience by using that old excuse
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Grey squirrels are a pest and recognised as vermin. They destroy the nuts and food we put out for the birds despite using various obstacles to try and deter them. They have even bitten a neighbours dog, thereby showing no fear of humans or animals. I have no qualms about controlling them with my air rifle.
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People calling others townies because they don't agree isn't going to help. This just grievates their view of people who don't agree with all of their views. I think you'll find most of the TOWNIES will agree that control and exclusion are good compromises, it won't work if it's them and us. It needs to be WE. Please back me up TOWNIES (please read previous comments).
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Chris's comments, i can understand his point for economic reasons on a conservation basis, but not on a forestry one.
Control grey squirrels? definately, they cause huge damage to forestry through bark stripping, this was evident in the clip of the 'black' squirrel and can occur anywhere on the tree, trunk, branches and at any hight.
Eating squirrel? never tried it but i would give it a go, i would rather eat something that has roamed free and eaten natural food than something that has been pumped full of steroids, growth enhancers and who knows what else.
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Kathy, did you get your deffinition of racisim from the Simplified Dictionary for the Lay Person's Child or something? Grey squirrel control is not a trivial matter decided on how cute or cuddly something is and trying use hypothetical comparisons is a waste of time.
Many researchers with greater brains than I and I presume, you, have studied the problem. The hard facts of these studies are that grey squirrels harm trees, birds and other flowers/fauna far more than red squirrels. And yes, I do eat meat and I don't feel at all guilty about it, humans evolved to eat it.
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Stuart i find that a disgrace are you saying you shoot the grey squirrels for eating nuts that are put out for the birds! are you nuts? The grey squirrel should only be killed when it is a serious threat to the red populations that are left in the UK as part of a preservation programme, and in significant woodland areas.
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No Poisions, No Shooting, No Legal Release issue and No Sharp Jaws...
http://www.kania.net/ everyone should have one of these VERY effective.... I dont sell them but lots of us use them...
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As others have said, Greys are vermin. They damage trees, raid bird's nests, eat expensive food which the birds so desperately need and destroy costly bird feeders. None of these things can Reds be accused of. They are not welcome in my garden and they shouldn't be in anyone else's.
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No matter how annoying and destructive grey squirrels can be, they do make me smile, especially when tormenting my husband by running up the fence, then back again when his back is turned.
On holiday a few years ago we were fortunate to see a red squirrel, albeit very briefly, on a quiet road running down the length of Loch Awe and I do believe when I was very young, the squirrels that I used to feed when visiting Dumfermline Park, were also reds.
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Reds should be protected by controlling greys wherever they are. We have trapped a grey where we live and it was humanely killed. We had previously seen a red with the squirrel pox virus, which was not a pretty sight,(supporters of greys should see the results of this virus to appreciate how dreadful it is for the reds).
We previously lived in Essex where we had many hours of pleasure watching greys but now that we have moved to Northumberland and seen the beauty of the reds, know that the reds should be protected at any cost.
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Please no left and right. If we join and agree to control and exclusion who knows the bbc might just influence government (as it has many times) then our children may see Squirrel nutkin, not just in books. (She was a red if you haven't read it).
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A agree that there is too much sentimentality about cute cuddly things. If the problem was a fungus or a tick killing the reds or competing with them, then I very much doubt we'd be having this debate.
More conservation, less sentimentality. That is the way to save our diverse wildlife.
That is my opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs, but people should think very carefully about the consequences of alien species and what it will mean to the delicate balances that nature creates.
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Kathy. pressumably a 'veggie with attitude' as usual spouts the i dont kill anything to eat, such as you meat eaters do.
pressumably this means that she has not eaten and does not eat, peas, beans, rice, nuts etc, as these are all embrionic life forms, capable of growing flourishing and reproducing. They are alive, and a life form try watching david attenboroughs the life of plants for a new perspective.
This constant line from veggies really annoys me, we all kill thing to eat them and survive, there is no difference in that respect in a packet of eggs and a pod of beans, each is capable of growing, living and reproducing.
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Excellent comment julian. We are blessed to live in this beautiful diverse habitat called Britain. We must remember our home is an island and evolved away from many of the diseases and species that live on mainland and as such is more vulnerable to them.
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Yes Dan from my children's dictionary as I though you might just be able to understand this. As for 'cuddly and cute', no I don't just care about cuddly and cute but about all sentient beings, don't care if they are ugly or not. Keep eating the steaks Dan, as you are a big carnivore, vry healthy of you, good for the planet too! Keep up the good work.
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Omnivore please Kathy. I like to keep my options open.
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Oh Dear Pete, you just don't get it do you. Peas and beans have no nervous system, i.e are not conscious, sentient beings and do not feel pain, as such I am happy to eat them. I do not want to be responsible for causing other sentient beings to have a miserable life and torment and pain and terro via the slaughter process. Hope that makes it clear for you now
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Grey Squirrels are cute but they are vermin
They cause so much damage to plants and the mess distruction!!, i tried to grow tomatoes last year and one of my neighbours tried to grow strawberries.All where distroyed, of course it does not help when people keep feeding the grey squirrels!!! Even though they have been told to stop by the local council.
Any ideals how to keep squirrels away?
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lol@ veggie with attitude, the same folk that use soap ladden with lanolin ie:dead sheep. and miosturisers and conditioners. the list is endless of products that contain dead animals.
ther is something humbling about hunting to feed ure family and self rather then buying intensly farmed produce.
Anyway we are getting away from the topic. no point in killing grey squirrels where ther is no longer any red squirrels it is a pointless mission and cruel.
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Again left and right ie: Kathy and Dan I'm sure if you read my comments you'll meet in the middle. Left and right is why our ancestors died and maybe the reason the red will die.
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For all trhose people advocating the extermination of grey squirrels because they strip bark from trees, take birds eggs and eat fledglings - some facts you ought to learn, red squirrels also strip bark from trees, take birds eggs and eat fledglings.
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Of course I would not expect a hunter to know about cruelty free products , free from animal derevatives!! Sorry to disappoint you , no lanolin, there are all out ther if you care to look etc. The 'hunter gatherer' is long gone, but carry on fooling yourself if you like, I find lots of animal killers try that to ease their buried consciences!!
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Zweiblumen, Reds do not live in such high concentration and so do not cause so much damage.
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As a long-standing visitor to Formby Point Red Squirrel Reserve I have seen the devastation caused by squirrel pox. Reds were abundant there, now there are very few left. The greys must go.
The pox comes from greys. They can't help being here, but that does not excuse their presence. Realism states the best use of scarce resources is to cull greys in the boundary areas, but this should be done in order to extend the boundaries, not maintain them. It is sentimental claptrap to call this racism. It is proper conservation.
Vegetarians who get on a high horse about their superior moral status (and therefore we must not cull grey squirrels) should wind their necks in and remember that, amongst his other fanaticisms, Hitler was a fanatical vegetarian. Grow up, please.
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Whilst living on the Isle of Wight I encountered, after being told by many others of a sighting of Black and White squirrels. Like little Panda's, as they were discribed, Near Havenstreet. This was between 1985 and 1990. When I viewed them, they were indeed like little Panda's but still the Red Squirrel due to thier size and ear tufts. I assumed that they were a sort of throwback in the genes.
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We have moved too far off topic here. The issue is of red conservation/grey control, not vegan lifestyle choices.
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oh dear Kathy, i do get it, unfortuanetly you dont, as i said watch life of plants, you will see evidence if ever you need it that plants do indeed have nervous systems.
just because you cant hear its screams of distress does not mean it is not hurting or reacting, e.g. accatia trees when been browsed by animals release chemicals into their leaves and into the air so that other accatia know to do the same and make them unpalatable so the aminals move on. there are many more examples of plant reactions sences and sensitivity.
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Grey squirrels do a lot of damage to woodlands and also eat small birds eggs, something Reds do not do. They need to be culled like mink.
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I am afraid Casumpious that when you see the damage and harm to my vegetables, fruit trees and plants that grey squirrels, rabbits and pigeons do then the air rifle is the last resort
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adgecutler - I'm aware that reds don't live in such high concentration as greys. My point was that a lot of people think that the predation of birds, egg stealing and bark stripping were solely the habits of grey squirrels, which is not the case.
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A single mature oak tree supports about 300 species. A single grey squirrel will kill a hell of a lot of saplings through bark stripping. Every dead grey helps in my book.
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What the the ******** does vegatarianism or any other matter have to do with helping conserve a beautiful species. It seems none of you want to help but would rather slag each other off.
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We should try & save the Red Squirrels which are beautiful to look
at, a vaccine would be a better way, but may take too long, grey squirrels are wildlife also and have been here alongtime now, Don't really like any wildlife being culled but if the greys are doing more harm to our countryside, then maybe should be controlled. Chris.
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Kathy im not fooling my self. While i respect youre opinion and youre morals on not killing animals. you surely are not ignorant to suggest that indigenous folk are foooling them selfs by hunting to survive? or do you expect them to die from hunger or cold? you are now comin across as ill informed or ill educated. the hunter gather does still excist and always will.
just because many choose to go to the supermarket to purchase intensly farmed produce rather then grow/hunt/rear ( and i understand many are unable do do that) doesnt make it any different to me hunting and eating it.
And im aware that many cosmetic products dont have dead animal products in them
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
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to right adgecutler, we stayed from the point, conservation of red squirrels
the main reason to cull the greys to save the reds is because they carry and are immune to the pox virus, as the program stated an immunisation vacine for the reds is at least 10 years away, this means that culling and control in one form or another will have to carry on until then.
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"At 10:01pm on 06 Nov 2009, Peter J wrote:
The big difference between the red and grey squirrel that's not often mentioned is that the red doesn't urbanise."
Not true. As a small child I lived in urban Coventry. I well remember watching red squirrels in the road outside my house. I suspect the difference is that greys took over towns earlier than countryside (I believe they were introduced in urban parks originally), and that there are no reintroduction prorammes in areas where greys have been eradicated in towns.
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Well if you are aware that many cosmetic products do not have animal products in them, your earlier comment is rather silly is it not? You are coming across as rather desperate.
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A vaccine for squirrel pox my buy some time but I'm affraid starvation of the red would prevail as the Grey is a much more successful creature and would more successfully populate areas and eat all the food. They are great at populating areas (look at U K Greys have covered 3/4 and displaced Reds in these areas in 60 or so years) Not sure of timescale but it's about that. Please tell when introduced.
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Stuart i have a small holding and i have no problem with the squirrels or pigeons or rabbits. because the birds of prey do their job. Like i said in previous comment culling/hunting is sometimes an unsavoury part of land/animal control. but not many seem to understand this as they do not live on a farm or in the country or keep livestock or grow veg/trees. its down to ignorance realy.
Good luck on ure mission. try little windmills the toy ones they might work rather than a riffle ..lol
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Why is it that people always twist things around to suit their point of view. I have not said in any previous post that anything that causes damage should be killed. If you knew how much effort goes into growing things only to see them destroyed despite using all known deterrents then u would use depperate measures like I do. I live in the Countryside and if all the farmers can shoot/trap/poison kill rabbits and pigeons etc then why Should I be critcised for doing that. Doing nothing is not an option on lots of things in life and perhaps Kathy should get some real-life spectacles on instead of blinkers!
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What does lol mean? I keep seeing it.
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Kathy that was a clever deviation from the rest of my comment.. you failed to react upon..
Anyway i get the feeling you are argueing and trying to provoke people with this anti hunting farse.
The main point it protection of the native red squirrel. Do you agree that perhaps it is right for the grey to be killed to protect woodland and the reds?
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They were introduced more than once adgecutler, with the first ones in the late 19th C I think. I have the information somewhere, I came across it when researching, I'll post it later.
I know that quite recently plans to revert large parts of Kielder forest back to native broadleaves (from exotic conifer plantations) were halted, because reds are far better evolved to live in coniferous forests. This is good news at least! But we do need to keep the momentum going.
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Please check out saveoursquirrels.org, click on Conservation then Squirrelpox Virus. This is the reason many of us are working to control the greys and save the reds where possible
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Forgot to add that I also poison rats and trap mice that get into my house and garage to nest, eat my stores, urinate, defeacate etc. Is that OK or should I ignore that too for fear of upsetting the Kathys and Casumpious' of this world.
Lol means laugh out loud
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"At 10:07pm on 06 Nov 2009, I_love_pigeons wrote:
Don't people understand that Chris is right???
even if you kill greys, the reds would never want to move to london and how is a handfull of squirrels going to get down south england anyway??"
Easy. Captive breeding and reintroduction. But that's not the way to do it. My earlier point stands. Concentrate on the interface, but cull the greys there in such a way as to extend the reds' range. It will take time, money and effort, but it could be done if there were the will.
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As the individual who supplied the Norfolk Red Squirrel body from which the RS1 type para pox virus was first isolated and indentified back in 1981, I maintain a close interest in this subject.
Red Squirrels died out progresively in Norfolk during the 1970s and the record kept back then was, and still may be the most detailed record of an introduced species (Grey Squirrel) replacing a native one. They are extinct in Norfolk and Suffolk, although the Forestry Commission still have Reds on their Thetford Forest signs! Ocasional escapes from captivity are still recorded.
OK the UK Red Squirrel populations have had numerous alterations to their genetic make up over a period of perhaps six centuries as a result of continental introductions, but they are still native (i.e. present in the UK since post-glacial times.)
While not entering the debate/opinion about destroying or not destroying introduced species, although Chris has an entirely acceptable viewpoint, the real situation for the Red Squirrel is far worse than has been related in the programme tonight.
Not only are Red Squirrels succumbing to para pox, now often termed SQPV, but other diseases are attacking them, again seemingly transported by usually resistant Grey Squirrels. These include a Rotavirus, and an Adenovirus.
So the science on is simple, the continued spread of Grey Squirrels northwards means the native Red Squirrel will not be with us for very much longer unless drastic action is taken.
Jay Gee
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Now Now Kathy the only one being arrogant and aggressive is you. and i think you will find most country folk just get one doing what we do and leave the politics to the highly paid politicians.
Anyway are you on here to debate about red squirrel protection or argue and provoke?
Whats youre opinion on culling the grey squirrel?
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The red squirrels are native to this country whereas the 'greys' aren't. Before we lose another species the grey squirrels should be contained, culled or, if need be, eradicated!
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Thanks for some realism, Jay Gee!
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I was born and born, bred and for at least part of the year, live in "The City" Kathy. But please, try to stick on topic, rather than going over old ground. I'd deffinitly advise a look at the saveoursquirrels.org website to anyone who has an interest in red squirrel conservation. It's informative and lets you know how you can actually get involved, which is really important. Squirrels are everywhere, not just hanging around offices, so we need people, everywhere to get clued up and, wherever possible, help out.
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As an active Red Squirrel Conservation Volunteer here in Cumbria,I was pleased to see the Red Squirrels plight highlighted on Autumnwatch tonight. Although touched upon,I knew in the back of my mind that the deadly squirrel pox wouldnt be underlined much when back to the studio.This issue is a very serious threat which cannot be ignored.There have been great success stories in this region where reds have moved back into grey strongholds and this is why we Cumbrians continue our hard work for future generations to enjoy.Many people want to see red squirrels and want to know more about them and I thought the programme might of put a link to a website so that viewers could do this but they didnt.
I have contributed many photographs of red squirrels to websites for people to enjoy. These images include both healthy reds and reds with the squirrel pox virus. please check out the new red squirrel charity www.rsst.org.uk where Prince Charles is doing a great job as patron.
Sarah McNeil
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Please bear with me. Passer domesticus, an ‘alien’ species, was introduced in 1850's as part of a plan to control inch worms which were damaging the cereal crop. However, being vegetarian, it did not help. Its aggressive behaviour meant it has taken up the cavity nest sites previously used by native species as well as driving them away.
One source says: “t wasn't long before the destruction of crops, the spread of disease and parasites, competition with song birds, its filthy habits and a population explosion revealed its introduction as a huge mistake. But control and extermination attempts with bounties and poison have proved useless against such a pervasive species. The winged rat is in complete possession of the continent. It does considerable damage to grain crops and storage. The sparrow's movements between farms expedites the spread of chicken lice and mites and livestock diseases which can be spread by mere physical contact.
A few House Sparrows can multiply into thousands in a few years because they regularly raise three and sometimes as many as five broods per year, each brood averaging around five or six birds.
It builds nests in almost any nook or cranny in farms, towns and cities. The droppings from large flocks roosting on houses and other buildings despoil window trim, porches and ornamental work. It eats buds, young sprouts, flowers and seeds of almost anything.
It is a persistent adversary of many birds, especially those that seek shelter in bird houses or nest near humans including Bluebirds, Wrens, Phoebes, Tree Swallows, Purple Martins, Song Sparrows, Chickadees, Flycatchers Thrushes, Tanagers, Robins and more.
Since it is a year around resident it has a head start in the spring, invading the bird houses we place for migrating song birds. It dominates feeders intended for song birds leaving most of the seed on the ground uneaten.”
Perhaps it should be treated in the way that some would treat the grey squirrel. Meanwhile its numbers are nose diving in one of its native territories. Should it became necessary to re-introduce the ‘English’ (House) sparrow (as it is known in America) into England from where might stocks then be obtained?
Or is this a case of “English - good; American -bad”? And American people who move to England? even when they are just reversing their grandparents movements?
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Stuart im a pro not an anti.. not sure if you read my comment to you previous. talking of rats i have a really bad rat prob they have now knawed a hug hole in my chicken coups. i cant use pioson in fear of all my other free rangin animals eating it including my dogs. and i cant use my terrior to kill them as it is now banned hunting with dogs.
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kettle black comes to mind here Kathy, your tone is very aggressive!!
And Stuart you are quite right, it is very fustrating when you work hard trying to grow your own plants and veg, to have it all ruined/distroyed.
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Jay Gee's comments are probably the most relevant made to the entire discussion. Cold, hard, scientific facts. Much appreciated!
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Dan, I feel I may learn from someone like you rather that just be annoyed. I know red prefer conifers but will also live happy lives within broadleaf. Question: which trees did they adapt to live in in Britain: Scots pine Larch, what else?
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Casumptious - put the poison in a rat box. Putr the box adjacent to where the rats run. Only rats and smaller animals can get access but put a couple of bricks on top to stop a dog picking it up and getting the poison out
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They can eat loads of other seeds, Ash, Birch (Larch is introduced, but there is a European Larch, which European Reds will feed on, as far as I am aware) etc. I think the more important issue is that conifer seeds alone are just too small for greys to sustain themselves on. It's not worth the energy they expend having to eat so many small seeds.
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Isn't the decline in red squirrels also to do with loss of suitable habitat? Aren't they less adaptable than the greys? If this is the case then their decline is just as much to do with the habits of us humans, as it is to do with the greys. Chris Packham supported a sensible, balanced and practical strategy to preserve existing red enclaves. The greys should also be celebrated as a successful and resourceful species. There have been two or more dreys in my small urban garden for many years - we, they and the other wildlife (both animal and vegetable - including the odd quite expensive tree) all co-exist happily - no damage, no mess, just hours of great entertainment.
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I believe that grey squirrels are now native animals of Britain in much the same way squatters obtain rights once they have occupied a property for long enough! It is not the grey squirrels' fault that they were brought over to this country and they should not be made to suffer. Of course, try to help the red squirrel too, but there is enough persecution and killing of wildlife so please leave the grey squirrel alone - they are beautiful and part of our wildlife. Just create habitats for red squirrels too. NO KILLING PLEASE!!
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casumptious- let that terrier loose, i am pretty sure that the hunting ban doesnt protect rats, it covers fox, deer, hare, mink being hunted with more than 2 dogs.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I don't think the "loss of habitat" argument stands up too well although I must confess I havn't researched it particularly thoroughly. I do know that woodland cover in the UK at the turn start of the 20th C was less than 5% and is currently nearly 15%. The decline of the reds correlates much more closely with the spread of greys.
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Wolves, otters,could the squirrel become another statistic?
If you go onto the forrestry commission for scotland website and type red squirrel you will find loads of relevant info. and how they use the word dispatch to soften what they really mean is kill. I grew up in Argyll my family still there my father 40 years in commission and still working away to preserve and manage scottish wood/landsacpes it will be a sad day never to see the red squirrel due to the pussy footing around antis culling has to be done to protect the red and to late to start killing greys where the red is already extinct. preserving whats left is important.
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TJWhite9, you raise a red herring. If Passer Domesticus is a problem in America, it is an American problem, for them to do as they see best with. Grey squirrels are a British problem, same terms.
It's clear views are polarised. The Kathys of this world will never believe that culling them is justified, never mind workable. I have no patience with that kind of sentimental foolishness.
The issue is simple: kill the reds by doing nothing about the greys, or kill the greys so that the reds can live. I once had reds in my neighbourhood because they were the native English breed. I doubt there is a single red squirrel in Coventry now that is not in a cage. I resent the folly that introduced the greys and I see no moral turpitude in wishing to see them controlled and eventually eradicated.
Reds are beautiful, and if they have some of the bad habits of the greys, that's just too bad. But they belong here, and although a vast majority of our population know nothing but greys, greys do not belong here. End of. They must go, to save the reds.
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fyi kathy, from oxford dictionary, nervous system - the body's network of specialized cells which transmit nerve imuplses between parts of the body.
no mention of a brain or scentiance there i believe, doesnt mean they dont feel things tho. now please get back on topic, conservation of reds.
jay gee, sarah mac, wonderful commnets and keep up the good work
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It is not the clever, charming, Beautiful grey's fault it is on our shores I agree Vivien. This is also the reason we need to take responsibility.
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Kathy please stop addressing to me now you are horrible you are now insulting people.. you are clearly not on here for sensible debate.
Thanks Stuart but you should see the size of theese rats.. i have never seen anything like it. tirants! lol. decided desperate messures are needed so have called in the hunters! as i have horses and they also pee nd poo in my feed store , thers a burn runs along side my place so perfect place for them amoungst other things. And Fod i would let the terrier loose but Kathy is keeping an eye on me ! haha. what a crazy threat.
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I repeat: one of two things will happen. Either ***we*** will kill the reds by not culling greys - wiping out reds by neglect to control the alien species that out-competes them for reasons already well rehearsed - or we cull the greys to allow the reds to survive. Formby Point, and Jay Gee's post, show what happens when greys get into a red area. Cut the veggie tosh and get real.
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The "race" comments remind me of visiting an Alabama Wh**** Kn****s website nearly a decade ago. Especially the comments from Freya and Alicia Wilkin.
LOL
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Are we going to tell the future generation that the red squirrel is extinct because we decided to allow the grey to run amock? nonsense! kill the grey get it under control now, preserve the red and its habitat.
Unsavoury but very much needed.
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casumptious, you put my point exactly.
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At last we r getting some consensus
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I believe the reds are best adapted to coniferous forest, so originally in the uk their range would be of been centred on the caledonian pine forests, then greatly expanded by the planting of coniferous plantations post war.
Does anybody know much about their range in mainland europe?
I am wondering if that way before the greys arrived, way back when the uk was joined to mainland europe the 'uk' reds were a small population on the edge of their natural range?
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Well i know that the Arrochor road just after the rest and be thankfull mountains in Argyyl is where the red squirrel ends and the grey begins! the commission are trying to keep the greys out of Argyyl and are managing to do so..there is no grey squirrels here at all only reds that im aware of.. and i did mention the rope bridge built above the busy road in Strachur Argyll its amazing to see the wee reds squirreling along it instead of crossing the road it has significantly reduced the amount killed on the road.. If you ever come to Argyll Scotland its worth a visist so is the feeding boxes for the reds at Glenbranter.
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How many people would like to see an English Elm standing statuesque in their park? or are you glad alien species killed them?
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Vivien Clifford and adgecutler put the naive point of those who have no experience of reds, nor of the carnage that greys cause in red populations (unwittingly, granted, but nonetheless very really). Greys are not native by virtue of their presence. They are as alien and invasive in the animal kingdom of GB as Japanese Knotweed is in the plant kingdom.
When you see what damage they do to reds, you see that the "beauty" of the greys is but skin deep. I used to love greys just as much - until I found out what a menace they are. The only alternative to culling greys is allowing the extinction of reds.
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I would love to see scottish reds. I have seen them on brownsea island. ironically another highlight of my visit to brownsea was viewing (non native) sika deer swimming in poole harbour just offshore from the island.
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Beg your pardon, adgecutler. I re-read your post and find I had you wrong. Apologies.
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They grey ability to digest unripen berrys/seeds means they have rich pickins first so the red squirrel becomes hungry as its ability to eat less ripen goodies is poor. never the less im sure pharmasists can produce a vacine for the pox or a contriceptive to keep the antis all happy but will they be happy when certain speices of trees/fauna are wiped out too?
control is needed and if that means killing, culling, dispatching, seperating any word that suits it all means the same, then so be it to protect native breeds with a less chance if of survival if we allow the grey to continue to thrive in UK.
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Well Fod get up to Argyll! reds are evrywhere.. i know evry spot. And not a grey insight.
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jl0911 no problem, I shall try to make myself more clear from now. I actively control greys and beleive more would do so if they really knew the facts. I work for a conservation body but do not wish to go any further due to the likes of kathy.
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..I have an effective contraceptive, its a 3 shot 12bore semi auto, and i'll be putting it to use this weekend, lookout mr grey....
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Haha adgecutler uch go on divulge! lol..RSPB? or sepa or defra or who?
im nosey!
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Mr. Fod comments like that give people with other beliefs fuel to their flames. Try to be more subtle.
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Yes Fod do a detour up here and kill my rats and other menacing predetors.
dnt have a gun ..
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fair comment adge, that was a fairly childish post, I hope kathy has gone to bed.
It is encouraging to see that the majority of bloggers? here have reasonable views and have posted eloquent and logical comments supporting lethal control of non natives.
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Beware, creeping saxifrage. Goodnight.
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As a Formby resdent, I'm surprised that the show did not mention at all the decline of Reds at Formby point. We are well aware of the desease and the cruel suffering that the pox virus inflicts on a native squirrels. As a pationate animal lover it is with a heavy heart that we must do everything to stop the greys.
I havnt seen a red for nearly two years until the other day when one as the top of my road, I live a few hundred yards away from the National Trust enclosuer at Formby Point. As a pro photographer, I enjoyed being able to photograph the reds on my quiet days, have 20 red squirrels taking the food!!! I am trying to say this problem is for real!!
The other thing about Formby was that families and schools came from miles around to see the squirrels, how else can we get younglings to engage in our enviroment, be eductated and take away their enthusiasm for nature. To be honest I dont agree with Mr.Packhams attitude at all and I feel at best was very unhelpful. He should do well to remember the words of Reg Smith (Hawk Conservancy Founder) that are youngsters are our future.
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i beleave we should protect the red at all costs the gray must go i live in doncaster and have never seen a red sqirrel in the wiled yet the greys are everywhere.got them on your land have have powerful air rifel just call.
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john
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About 17 years ago my young daughter brought a baby grey squirrel home, he was only about 4/5" long and nowhere near being weened. I rang the rspca to ask for feeding advice and was told to bring him in and they would destroy him. This we ignored and bought a pipette from the chemist and collected acorns, which I peeled and ground up to an oily paste in a pestle and mortar, then mixed it with warm cows milk and 1 drop of rabbit vitamins and much to our surprise he thrived. I weened him on soft fruits then acorns and horse chestnuts. We kept him in a parrot cage at first and when we went out of the room he used to scream. Then my husband built a tall outside cage for him with a small log cabin at the top filled with straw, then he knocked a brick through to the living room and put the parrot cage on the inside. He eventually decided to live outside, but would come into the living room every day. We had 3 dogs at the time all of which he very quickly sussed out. The rough collie [who loved small animals] was the target for burying nuts in her fur, which she always tolerated. The chihuahua he bullied [he used to box her ears] and the cross terrier/bichon who wasn't to be trusted he avoided like the plague. We were told it was against the law to let him go and I think he wouldn't have been afraid of dogs, so we kept him and he lived for 12 years. He was a much loved character and never bit anyone, he would spread himself across our heads, come on your hand, lift his arm up for us to tickle him, fly round the room at lightning speed, pinch tissues, take them to his log cabin and was wonderful fun to watch. He only ate the most expensive nuts [wouldn't touch peanuts] and had a penchant for chocolate, which he would sit over growling then run outside with it. I still miss him and he's been gone for 5 years. However having said all this, I do think the red squirrel should take precedence over the grey and I agree with Chris Packham it should be done humanely and selectively. I read recently that they are trying to cull all grey squirrels on the isle of Anglesey where they have quite a few red squirrels which have now crossed the bridge onto the mainland. I am afraid I agree with this, especially because it is an island and easier to protect the reds there, and it is large enough to keep the gene pool more diversified. I love Anglesey and holiday there whenever I can. Maybe next time Simon King goes there for Springwatch they could film the reds. Sorry to be so long winded but I had to write this in memory of my Cyril who was such a little love.
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we must at all costs keep the greys and the reds apart. I have seen the decline first hand for myself as 6 years ago i moved out to the country and as i walked round the woods everyday i would see reds running up trees as the dog sniffed them out, but for the last 3 years i have seen none. The greys are more than a pest to reds but bad for the enviroment.
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What Chris said on the show last night I totally agree with. However, relocating the greys rather than killing will help more as greys will reproduce more to 'fill the gap'. We must also plant LESS broadleaf trees (be realistic, we planted broadleaf because of the colour in Autumn, right?)
In the meantime. Follow a squirrel... watch, observe and learn from it because you'll learn more than you'll ever wish to know and if you let one of them into your heart, you'll earn a friend for life.
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Grey Squirrels need to be eradicated from the UK except maybe in Parks in Towns and Cities. Apart from nearly driving our Reds to extinction they are a huge predatour of our song birds. Also Greys destroy our native hardwoods with their ring barking. How can we try and restore our native woodlands with this vandel in our mists???? It is not from hear and plays a seriouse threat to our native Fauna and Flora.
Jeremy SB
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We, as humans, obviously believe we have the right to determine everything, who and what shall live and die. We slaughter owls, hawks, crows and magpies so that grouse or pheasants can be reared in large numbers. We then slaughter them by sending lead shot ripping through their flesh – and call it sport. We destroy rabbits as vermin and then demonise the foxes who live on them. We then hunt the foxes. We gas badgers because they might have TB; we trap and kill rooks because we don’t like their habits; chase hares with dogs for entertainment; do anything we like to rats and mice; shoot pigeons in their tens of thousands. We determine which animals we will eat and deny them everything, we determine which will be labelled vermin and try to annihilate them; while we allow others into our homes as pets.
It seems we are incapable of understanding that every living creature has its part to play in maintaining the glorious fabric of our wonderful world. We pretend that only we can maintain the balance by determining what shall live and what shall die. It seems we never stop and look around us to witness the appalling mess we have made – deluding ourselves that we know what we are doing. None of the animals which we slaughter, even those we demonise as vermin, pose any threat to the survival of the planet. It is not they which threaten its existence but us.
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Grey squirrels are full of character and fun to watch but regrettably they are an invasive species. The law states you cannot release greys squirrels into other areas if they are trapped. There is good reason for this in that they are very destructive and are considered a pest.
100 years ago red squirrels were shot for similar reasons.
I personally don't like any animals being culled but my head has to rule my heart on this.
Conservation of the red is necessary because it is indigneous. It is our squirrel and a symbol of English Wildlife. Culling the greys will allow reds to return to environments which were their own, i.e. the whole country, at one time. And when the greys go, the reds do return...witness Kirby Lonsdale and Silverdale, two areas where reds are returning after grey culling....therefore culling is a necessary evil.
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Not only should we be encouraging the reds to survive in their existing habitats we should be actively encouraging the growth of their habitat. Maybe some reintroduction programmes are needed to encourage this spread. To this end we will need to cull the greys in and around the existing red areas, then feed and encourage the breeding of the reds.
There is little point in killing all the greys in areas where there are no reds and there is no chance of reds been introduced.
Long term we must support the reds - Long live the reds.
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I feel that the grey should be eradicated the same as was the coypu. not only to save the red,but to stop it destroying other species such as birds their eggs, and plants.after all it may look very pretty and cute but its only whats known as a tree rat.I have seen a grey destroy a nest of baby blue tits,and it's not a pretty site.I would like to see the Red in the area where I live as I did when I was a child,50yrs ago,which after all is our native species,and surely our younger generations should have this privilege
Peter Bilverstone---NORFOLK
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The grey is a pest, it ravages the countryside and in the towns is fed by well meaning individuals (because its so cute)so encouraging its proliferation.
we have introduced this pest and therefore need to be proactive in eradicating it totally.
If done on a large enough scale a by product would be the meat for human or pet consumption, you never know it could catch on as a delicacy.
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I am in no doubt that we need to act now to preserve our Red Squirrels. I trap and kill Grey Squirrels at every opportunity. I do not want these animals in my garden or public parks. It was a sad day for our native Red Squirrels when some self indulgent fool intoduced the Greys to their estate. It is high time people woke up to the fact that they are not native to these shores and will eventually eliminate our beautiful Reds.
Anne Barrie
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We can 'save' red squirrels without going around killing grays. If we keep grays from straying in to Red Squirrel strongholds then that is what we should be doing. It is unlikely that Reds will suddenly start spreading out over the country and re-inhabiting places where they haven't been seen for decades, its unfortunate but true.
In these instances of Grays 'invading' more built up areas, why not let them, they are obviously better adapted to this lifestyle and provide no threat to the safety of the Red populations in other areas.
From previous posts I can see that people agree that it is counterproductive to waste money culling grey squirrels who pose no threat to the native reds. Instead, we should be spending this money on keeping existing populations of reds free of grey squirrels such as what is happening on the Isle of Wight, Brownsea Island and the Lake District, Cumbria, Scotland etc. Also, if I remember correctly, reintroduction programmes in Anglesey have started, this is a realistic way in which we can keep the red squirrel species alive, by putting them on islands and not letting grays get there!
What is the point in spending money that isn't really going to help in terms of practical Conservation of Reds, instead of spending the money on vaccines and contraceptives, as mentioned on the programme, which will in the long run, provide genuine conservation advantages!
Deary me, rather longer than I was anticipating, and probably not including evrything I was going to say!
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Chas you don't sound like someone who should be watching Autumn watch,you are obviously in the "kill anything that does not fit camp "
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I have yet to see an argument for tolerating greys that does not involve ignorance (as evidenced by some of the ridiculous opinions expressed here by people who obviously consider themselves so well-informed that they did not need to read the introduction), hypocrisy or prejudice.
Anyone with the least grasp of evolution could not consider what is happening to our reds to be natural. Ill-informed and ignorant people consistently fail to grasp the difference between the natural spread of a species into adjacent habitat that contains similar flora and fauna and the introduction, either deliberate or accidental, of a species from another continent thousands of miles away where the flora and fauna are completely different. Examples of the first are the red-legged partridge and the little owl, introduced from neighbouring Europe and these have not become invasive and are delightful additions to our wildlife. Or the little egret which has recently spread from the European continent of it's own accord. Examples of the second are the grey squirrel, American mink, signal crayfish, topmouth gudgeon, Canada geese, red-eared terrapins, American bullfrogs, Japanese knotweed, Himalayan balsam, the list goes on and on and all are ecological disasters to varying degrees. Experience from both here and their native India tells us that the ring-necked parakeet could well become a serious economic and environmental pest, yet we will tolerate them also until, once again, it is too late.
Why is there no outcry about the persecution of American mink? Why was there no outcry at the eradication of coypu from the Norfolk Broads quite recently? Hypocrisy and prejudice, that is why! Creatures that fluffy-bunny lovers perceive as being cute should be left alone, or even encouraged. Others seen as not being so cute by the same hypocritical procedures, such as brown rats and the other non-native invasive species already mentioned can be slaughtered, and a convenient blind eye is turned! And most of these morally superior people who deplore killing tuck-in quite happily to their Sunday roasts!
A small band of dedicated, under-appreciated and under-supported people and organisations are trying to correct some of these hideous mistakes and if that involves killing, for lack at present of a feasible alternative, then so be it.
These invasive greys, that exist at 6 or 7 times the density of reds and weigh one third more, must be eating at least 10 times more food than our reds. Add to that the fact that there will always be more suitable grey habitat than there ever could be for reds and the actual potential for depriving our native wildlife of food is incalculable. And that is before we even consider the damage to trees and the knock-on effects upon our birds, dormice etc. And we haven't even considered direct predation of birds' nests yet!
These holier-than-thou hypocrites, who are the first to call in pest-control when they see a rat in the garden yet choose to ignore the plight of a well-loved native species that lives "somewhere else" cannot see beyond their own selfishness and prejudice.
As for the argument that grey extermination would be too expensive and probably impossible, well bankers' immoral bonuses would cover it many times over! If it can be done on Anglesey why can't it be done on a bigger island? Countless millions of a more mobile species were exterminated from a vast continent even without the aid of modern technology. I refer to the passenger pigeon of North America, or do we also turn a blind eye to that when it suits?
Remove greys and our native reds could live in suitably-planted, modern, commercial forestry plantations in every county in Britain and would then be able to spread to broadleaf woodlands, where they also belong. Tolerate them and sooner or later the defences will break down and yet another outbreak of squirrelpox will occur, as recently happened to the supposedly safe reds of Formby Point. Thank heavens that at least some of them survived to start afresh!
As for Mr Packham's deplorable attitude towards giant pandas and, apparently, dormice, words, believe it or not, fail me. I think he should be ashamed of himself for expressing such an opinion on TV. Well done Kate for cutting him short!
Get well soon Bill Oddie and save us from his nonsense!
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The above comment was posted by OuzelBird! Where "you" came from I have no idea!
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I am still appearing as "you" for some reason!
I AM OUZELBIRD!
Could we not have some sort of voting system. We were denied a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty so why not have our own little one on the grey squirrel problem. Three choices - total eradication of greys, eradication from buffer zones, or do nothing (how unthinkable is that last one?)
BBC please take note!
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I absolutely believe that reds need to be protected, but reading through the comments here, it's clear that there are a lot of incorrect 'facts' circulating. I suspect that many of these are being perpetuated by people who have never actually seen reds before in the wild, and hence feel protective of their greys.
Up here in northern England an enormous effort is being put in to preserve the red squirrel.
1. Many people cite the huge amount of money that is supposedly being spent as a reason not to protect our reds. WRONG! The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the work being undertaken is being done by hundreds of VOLUNTEERS who give up their own time, use their own fuel, and in many cases buy their own traps and bait. Also, a substantial amount of the cash that IS being pumped in to red squirrel conservation has come from individual donations. Let's be perfectly clear - it's NOT the taxpayer who's funding most of this, it's almost entirely private individuals.
2. Those against culling like to perpetuate the myth that the captured greys are clubbed over the head by people who relish violence. WRONG! When a grey is caught in a trap, the vast majority of people will shoot it there and then. The traps used are LIVE CAPTURE traps, so anything caught in error is released unharmed. Transferring a squirrel into a sack requires about six pairs of hands and a great deal of speed! Shooting is quick and clean. Most culling is done by organised groups, who carry out the procedure in an organised and efficient manner. It's the few individuals elsewhere in the country who buy traps at DIY shops for their own use who you should worry about. They're probably also trapping other creatures that they shouldn't be!
3. Red squirrel decline isn't due to a change in the amount of woodland. If anything there are more trees here than twenty years ago. There are fewer red squirrels since greys appeared though. Coincidence? No. Of course not. Greys eat a wider range of food than reds, and they eat it when it's still unripe. Conifer forests are not the answer to preserving reds. Kielder forest is on my doorstep - Europe's largest man-made forest- but greys are here too and the reds are declining. Last month I sat and watched pieces of green pine cones raining down on me from the trees. The culprit - a grey squirrel.
4. The major problem is that greys pass on the pox to reds. Reds suffer terrible agony for up to a fortnight and get terrible scabs around their eyes, mouth and any exposed skin. The disease can run through a population and wipe out many squirrels within a week or ten days.
5. It's a lost cause so we're told. WRONG! There are many cases where reds have been wiped out and have subsequently returned. I spoke to someone this week who had shot 260 greys in their back garden over the last six years and has seen a red once more. Culling can work and does work, and if it protects our reds until someone comes up with a better solution, then I'm all for it.
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As I live on the Wight I would hate to see the grey squirrel become a visitor to this island and so I would have to agree as to some method of keeping them in check. We love to see them as we have a hazelnut tree near us which they adore and appear in the garden often.
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I was suprised at Chris's comments re the control of Grey Squirrels, after a previous programme when the discussion was the release in this country of the Beaver, Chris said he thought as they were not an English species they should not be released in this country, well the Grey Squirrel is not a native species either and should not be allowed to take over from our native red Squirrel.
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Whilst I respect Chris Packham‘s in-depth knowledge of our native wildlife if not his oft' wide-of-mark stab at chauvinistic humour, I must take issue with his assertion that there is no point in shooting (controlling) grey squirrel.
Does not then your presenter; the same one who campaigns for an increase in tree numbers, realise that the grey has been shot by the Forestry Commission and pretty much all other promoters of UK woodland for decades? Further, this has absolutely nothing to do with protection of the British Red but rather everything to do with woodland management "best practice" or, in laymen terms, ensuring both the longevity and number of trees to be found by Autumn Watch viewer's on their rambles.
Lastly, and to be only fair to CP's clear aversion to hunting, allow me the similar freedom in nailing my equally passionate view to the nearest 300 year-old beach in confirming that God does not take from Man (let's allow Women here too if she's cute!) the hours spent shooting (grey) squirrels!
Cheers
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HOW DARE YOU KILL GREY SQUIRELS I LOVE THEM AND HAVE SOME IN MY GARDEN AS PETS THEY THROW BARK AND BREAD AT ME AND ONE BIT MY FACE
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I very strongly agree that the greys should be eradicated, they are not native, and clearly have upset the eco-system, they take a lot more than they return, they steal eggs and chicks, they wreak havoc in the gardens destroying feeders. i have witnessed nest raiding first hand and have had great problems with greys chewing my feeders, they even have chewed through wire feeders!
i am totally against greys, i do not like them at all.
come back reds, drive the greys out like they have done the reds.
our government cannot make decisions, they have been umming and arring about this squirrel issue for ages. they need to act now, before it is too late and britain loses another part of our history.
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i think we should save the red because they are native to this country where as the grey were introdused here many years ago and are the result of the reds being pushed out.
Carol
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Cull Cull Cull-that is all a human being seems to be capable of. We do not have the right to destroy ANY life.We must work harder for other alternatives
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if a grey squirrel is causing damage in your garden you are within the law to humanely kill the animal, the grey is regarded by many as a non native pest species. this goes on, whether we like it or not, in gardens, in managed forests, in plantations and fruit farms. but still they spread. a national cull is required by professional people and close monitoring there after.
reds are a totally different character than the grey, they don't rob eggs and chicks, they don't strip bark, they don't destroy our bird feeders, they don't carry desease. they are loveable and they are welcome in my garden.
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I agree with the current approach to actively protect red squirrels in designated areas, and evaluate the effectiveness of current grey squirrel control efforts.
If the latter is shown to work I think we should try to go one step further, and reintroduce the red squirrel to some places.
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I don't believe that totally eradicating any species is ever the answer but the Reds shouldn't be allowed to die out either due to the negligence of those who introduced the Greys all those years ago, so I agree with the control of the Greys around those areas where Reds are continuing to survive. Reintroduction of the Reds would be a lovely ideal obviously but consideration needs to be taken to the enviroment they need. For now importance should be placed on maintaining the numbers of the existing Reds and protecting their habitats.
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I cannot see what the problem is reguarding culling the grey squirrels, as they are reguarded as pest, by the forest commission and others, why because this government of ours are always on about culling Badgers because they transmit diseases that cattle get, so the farmers say, even though it is proven that the cattle get it though bad management of the farmers themselves.
So come on the Governement stop sitting on the fence and make culling of Greys legal when they is a colony of Reds in the area, to protect them from the disease that the Greys carry.
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reds need all the help they can get!! greys are everywhere and are not at all rare............
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I think the red squirrels should be saved, but instead of culling the greys, can they not be caught and moved to a red free area? I just hate the way the human answer is to kill everything!
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As a volunteer at a local Wetland my husband and I feed birds and red squirrels. It would be a tragedy to see them overtaken by greys. We also regularly visit Dodd Wood where you were filming for last night's programme. I agree with Chris' comments that we cannot erradicate the greys, however there should be measures in place to protect the current colonies of reds.
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greys should be culled back to give reds a chance...they drove the reds out in the first place ..i have never seen a red in the midlands or any were else come to think of it ...lets have more reds !
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greys should be culled back to allow reds a come back the greys drove out the reds in the first place.i have never seen a red in the midlands and probally never will whilst the greys dominate !
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What a wondeful comment by Mr Ball. Says it all really. How sad that humans cannot see the beauty of all wildlife, the fact they have a right to their own life, the fact that we do not have the right to kill everything that does not suit our lifestyle. To kill any animal because of it's colour and because they use a habitat that was theirs long before it was ours shows the ignorance of man. Some of the comments on here are disgraceful and show the cruelty and lack of compassion that some humnans are capable of. As for the text at the beginning of this articel by the BBC tellingus that grey squirrels are trapped humanely, kept dry in the trap, checked twice every day,and are then killed by 'trained and licensed operatives', let su be clear of the true facts here. The squirrels are trapped, can be left for up to 12 hours trapped and panicking in their confinement ( and that is if the 'operatives' check the traps as often as they should anbd we know this does not happen), any animal in a trap is fearful, panic and try to get out, they are stressed and traumatised. They are then clubbed to death by the 'operateives' who are usually game keepers (!) or someone working for a pest control company who kill for a living and who are probably on minumum wage and have minimal training. It cannot be humane to club any animal to death and do not be fooled that this is a quick death for this little creature who's only crime is living it's life. The comments on here about 'bunny hugers' etc are not unusual, heard it all before by those who condone violence and cruelty. Shameful!
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As a race, we humans have tampered with nature in releasing these grey squirrels into britain and therefore have a responsibility towards our native red ones. As we can no longer penalise the introducers of these pests we should at least control them in protection of the red's. If you are going to "control" the grey's then do them justice and at least try them as food source. Who knows, you may even like them.
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I would love to see the return of the Reds all over the country. If this is to happen we have to remove the unequal balance created by the stupid introduction of the Greys.
Arguing about how to do that on here is pointless, we need action and advice from the experts on how to proceed from here.
If the animal lovers have their way (never hurt any animal brigade) then the Grey will triumph, so let the experts make the decision and get on with it!
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I see the reds regularly in the lakes, 8 in one go this year, however i have also reported 3 greys this year! The reds are so beautiful. I think control is the best we can hope for now so the reds are around for as long as poss
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Look after the reds by culling the greys. In the 1950's rewards were given to people producing grey squirrels tails. Even if culling doesn't help reds because they don't live in your area, you will be helping birds, gardners and foresters, because greys do so much damage. The National Trust are certainly killing off greys in some if not all of their woodlands, by using warfarin. Good luck to them.
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Yet again disgraeful comments showing violence towards innocent creatures. Warfarin means that animals will slowly bleed to death. It is an anticoagulant. What kind of inhumane person would advocate this? The National Trus are good at killing, they killed plenty of mountain goats in Snowdonia. Think on those who are members!
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Like i said in previous comments, It is an unsavoury needs be to kill the grey squirrel to manage and protect forest/fauna/red squirrels.
In Argyll where im from you never see a grey anywhere only loads of red squirrel due to the dispatching aka killing of the greys. From Arrochor to the whole cowal peninsular the commission are constantly keeping watch for greys and imediatly iradicate them.
Just out of Dunoon is a rope bridge high above a busy road to protect the reds from being killed my traffic and it works .hours of endless enjoyment watching them squirreling across it. superb. well worth a vist along with feeding stations at Glenbranter for the reds.
I feel to start killing greys in areas where the red has already disapeard from is a pointless mission unless some element of control is needed regarding the distruction caused to woodlands.
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Kathy you seem to be latching onto this morality about killing again!
Not evryone enjoys the facts of killing animals takes place and all the Antis who bang on about it should get together and come up with alternative soloutions rather then provoke negative reactions from the folk that have to dispatch/cull/kill/ animals for preservation or land managment or for livestock reasons.
For istance what should i do with the rats and foxes? i have a serious problem and have exhausted all other methods to protect my livestock. What would be youre soloution! i know how you feel about me killing animals and fox hunting.
But please tell me and thousands of others what the alternatives could be.
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I think people should stop worrying about red sqirrels, the greys have been here long enough to be considered native (we consider rabbits to be 'native', but they were introduced by the Normans). Its survival of the fittest-thats the way nature works after all.
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Over one hundred years ago in fact.
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I firmly believe in saving the reds and of course the grey, but unfortunately some nutter around here is killing them. It's about time we stopped killing our wild life.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Referance to number 6 . Brownsea Island off Poole is the place to go for Red Squirrals.
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I think a bounty should be paid for the killing of each grey squirel, this would make it worthwhile and result in a huge reduction of thier numbers.
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Ok Kathy i can see by the words and sarcastic comments that you are not here to debate or comment sensibly.
I do not enjoy killing its a needs be besides i never killed my dogs did until the goverment decided to gain more votes by banning hunting with hounds. I manage my animals suitably to the enviorment they live in, you assume to know me. and you dont. i have tried other methods of controling pests ie rats/foxs/rabbits.
And i keep stipulating that killing to protect is an unsavoury part of life. we thankfully do not live in airyfairy ideal world like youre deluded mind wants.
And to humainly kill in my opinion is best done by using hunting animals such as dogs/hounds/birds of prey/
Not guns and quad bikes! and for the many of you filming the country law breakers try filming what people need to see and not what the Antis want them to see..
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Can't believe the "Kathy" argument is still raging. Nature is in itself cruel. Think of a pride of lion's hunting a weak elephant, taunting it, waiting for a chance to bring it down or the Komodo Dragon's seen recently on "Life" biting the buffalo with venom and following it for days to wait until it dies to feed. It does appear cruel, but THAT IS NATURE. Natural selection. Killing is essential to maintain healthy stock (nothing is wasted).
Talk of hunting e.g. Stag hunting. Natural preditors wolves would have kept the population to an equilibrium, but man has removed the wolves and so a stag hunt emulates this, picking out the weakest in the herd. A strong stag (or fox for that matter) will very often get away.
So killing the grey squirrels who shouldn't be there in the first place and damage the delicate balance seems the only sensible and practical solution (this live shipping to other countries - please - think practically about cost and feasibility).
Kill the grey and SAVE OUR REDS!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Charles Darwin discovered the main rule which governs the natural world: natural selection. By culling the grey squirrel in the favour of the red one, we try to fight a law of life which has been never defeated. In addition, we waste important financial resources which may be used for causes which have more chances of success.
And indeed, it sounds somehow “racist”.
Why 10 years to get a vaccine? It took a few months to have one against the pig flu!
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Agreed, except that man has interfered with the natural selection process by introducing them. Nothing natural about that.
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Here, here mmm16554, my opinion exactly. Also, Julian Stubbs, two wrongs don't make a right.
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Watching last Friday’s Autumnwatch, an old question came into my mind: why are the mountains in England bare? Is it because they do not offer conditions for trees to grow or, by cutting the trees in the past, the soil degraded and is not able to support more life forms? Is anybody interested in this aspect? It is such a waste of possible life habitats.
I hope somebody can help, I tried to put this message on the Autumnwatch message board but it seens I need to creat another new account which I may never use again.
Many thanks
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Yes, exactly that, over the centuries Britain has been heavily forested, but once the trees are gone nothing remains to absorb nutrients from the soil, and the mineral get washed away. This makes the soil much less fertile. The same thing is happening in the amazon rainforest as we speak.
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Victimising Grey Squirrels
1. Native Species?
A key criterion set by the conservation industry for determining if a species is “native” is that it should have evolved with all other species within its own ecosystem and not have been introduced or assisted by man to arrive at what is regarded as its natural location. In short, it should have got to where it is by its own efforts and evolved naturally. If man assisted it, it is regarded as “non-native”.
This is confirmed in Scottish Natural Heritage’s website:
“3.5. Native species are presumed to be those that are present in Great Britain by natural means. In general they migrated (or were transported by other species) into Great Britain after the last Ice Age, without the assistance of humans.”
“3.6. Non-native species have been introduced to Great Britain, either deliberately or accidentally, by humans.
This criterion is only credible if the actions of humans are wrongly regarded as outside of nature. As every single thing we do, without exception, is a product of our own evolution, it follows that if we transport an animal to our homeland that we find attractive, it is an entirely natural act – just as a bee might transfer pollen from one plant to another.
Also, if it is important to conservationists that a species evolves naturally over millennia in Britain to earn its “native species” status, then it should be equally important that the same species evolving in a different natural environment abroad, should not be regarded as “native” to this country. They can’t have it both ways! But they try. Different catagories of “nativeness” are applied to different species in an attempt to justify this profoundly flawed concept.
It is well known that the grey squirrel was brought from America to England in the late 19th Century but less known that ancestors of the current population of red squirrels in the UK have been largely introduced from various parts of Europe and are taxonomically different from the indigenous population. These animals evolved within a wide range of climatic and environmental conditions and associated with different flora and fauna encountered across the part of the range they inhabited, so for conservationists to argue that these influences are not important is to argue against their own concept of “native species”.
Both current populations of squirrels, red and grey, have been introduced to this country and there is no evidence that even the earlier red squirrels evolved here continuously from the time of the land bridge to Europe around 10,000 years ago. Indeed, prior to the 15th century there seems to be no record of red squirrel populations living in the UK.
Determining whether an animal is native to this country should be to regard all born in this country as “native” by birth, just as we are, irrespective of colour, background or success. To expect racial tolerance within own population but condemn and kill wildlife on the basis of its ancestral background is extremely hypocritical.
2. Habitat
If conservationists want to assist the red squirrels to survive, they should be improving their habitat by planting suitable conifer trees in which they thrive, instead of the political and identity-crisis fad of wallpapering the countryside with native broadleaves that favours the greys' expansion and the reds’ demise. The need to plant trees that favour red squirrels as a barrier to the greys’ expansion is well known to the Forestry Commission.
3. Squirrel-pox Virus (SQPV)
Conservationists tell us that grey squirrels are the "cause" of the red squirrel decline through the transmission of squirrel-pox virus (SQPV) but there is no evidence to support this. It is merely speculation presented as fact.
It is known that the disease characteristics are similar to other poxvirus infections and that most are resistant to drying. This can allow infected lesions or crusts to remain infected for a long time thus allowing the spread of the disease throughout the forest environment by almost any creature that comes into contact with it. Indeed, Scottish Natural Heritage admit they do not know the route of transmission and that "possibilities include being passed by ectoparasites, fleas, lice, ticks and mites which may transfer from animal to animal in the dreys". They also acknowledge the virus may be airborne spread. Research by McInnes et al in 2006 acknowledges "the possibility that the virus is endemic to the UK and that other rodent species inhabiting the same woodland environment could be harbouring the virus
The Forestry Commission have admitted under a Freedom of information request that “no routine testing of live red squirrels is undertaken” and they “are not aware of any scientific evidence one way or another as to whether or not there is a resistant population of reds out there”. So it is quite wrong to claim red squirrels have no immunity to the disease. Indeed, recent research by London zoologists has established that red squirrels are beginning to show signs of natural immunity.
Early in the last century, out of forty-four districts in England where red squirrels had the disease only four districts had grey squirrels present. This suggests that SQPV has been within the red squirrel population for around a century at least and that grey squirrels are victims of a campaign of unfair vilification. Some people even have the audacity to claim that SQPV somehow arrived around the time it was discovered in 1983 but that is about as ridiculous as claiming America didn’t exist before it was “discovered” by Leif Ericson – centuries before Christopher Columbus was born.
4. Immunocontraception
Immunocontraception was deemed immoral in the 1930s in mainland Europe, when it was proposed against sectors of the human population. It is equally immoral to use it against wildlife, as it could affect non-target species and introduce a significant risk of unintended consequences. Unscrupulous conservationists could also use it as a weapon of mass destruction of any species in an attempt to control nature. How long before this dangerous technology, if perfected, could be used against the human population? It is not a route that should be considered by right thinking people.
5. Culling of Grey Squirrels
Culling doesn’t work except in closed environments such as islands. According to research it would cost £200,000 per annum to control grey squirrels in Northumberland’s Redesdale Forest alone. - Rushton et al (2002) – and would require to be repeated endlessly as greys will quickly re-colonised voids, sometimes within a few weeks. Culling greys across Scotland will be an expensive and futile exercise. It is well known that culling can lead to an increase in population as those left alive enjoy a better habitat and produce more young.
“Squirrel culling is not a new phenomenon. Some 60 years ago the Ministry of Agriculture started to encourage people to kill squirrels, offering—I remember it only too clearly—a shilling a tail. I became a very wealthy young man at that time, as we had a lot of grey squirrels in the area and I did not need a lot of encouragement to do something about them. When the government at that time had paid out some £250,000, they decided that that was enough. There was no perceivable difference to the squirrel population.” Lord Plumb, March 2006
In Merseyside, a buffer zone has been in place for a number of years where grey squirrels are killed. However, increased human exploitation of red squirrels for tourism and the frequent intrusion by conservationists for monitoring population levels was always likely to lead to stress and loss of condition of the red squirrel resulting in an increased susceptibility to disease. The recent announcement that the red squirrel population has declined by 90% in the past two years is hardly surprising.
In short, fewer grey squirrels with more conservation and tourist intrusion have resulted in a massive decline in the red squirrel population – definitely not the predicted outcome.
6. Humane dispatch or brutality
Grey squirrels usually mate from December to February and again in March to May, although Forest Research has recently established that they mate all year round. Gestation takes up to 44 days and the young are usually weaned short of three months. This means that most kittens will be dependent on lactating females from mid January to mid-October. Trapping and killing these females results in the extreme cruelty of sentencing their kittens to a lingering death from starvation. There is nothing “humane” about that! It is an act of extreme cruelty.
What is “humane” anyway? “Humane” and “humane as possible” are words frequently used by conservationists to describe the killing of wildlife. So what exactly do these words mean or are they merely euphemistic references to brutality?
Red squirrel groups are currently engaged in what they call the “humane dispatch” of grey squirrels by clubbing them over the head with a blunt instrument. However, Scottish Natural Heritage’s area manager for Shetland rightly condemned the brutal killing of twenty-one grey seal pups by a local fisherman, by clubbing them over the head with a blunt instrument. He said, "This is a shocking case. The degree of casual cruelty shows that there is still a great deal of ignorance and prejudice about grey seals”. But let us not forget that SNH, together with the Scottish Wildlife Trust and others are currently engaged in the “humane dispatch” of grey squirrels by the same method, which amounts to gross hypocrisy and double standards.
Putting aside the argument of whether the animal is a “protected” grey seal or a grey squirrel, it is logical to say that if the method of dispatch is similar, there is no excuse for describing it differently. All sentient animals feel pain irrespective of whether they are “protected” or otherwise.
7. Act of violence
Clubbing a grey squirrel over the head is an act of violence and is being promoted and perpetrated nation-wide by government and red squirrel groups. Scientific evidence shows that those who have little regard for the welfare of animals are likely to have a similar attitude to their fellow human beings. Abuse breeds abuse, and in our ever-increasing violent society, what example is it to younger generations that violence and killing is an acceptable solution to a perceived problem of not being native to this country?
In reality, rather than in the arbitrary and profoundly prejudiced world of “conservation”, all squirrels born in this country are as “native” by birth as we are, irrespective of their colour, background or success. To expect tolerance within our own population but condemn these animals to death on the basis of their ancestral background is extremely hypocritical and only one step removed from racism.
It should be appreciated that squirrels, of any colour, are not “ours”. They are independent parallel mammalian populations that inhabit this planet the same as we do and should be afforded the same respect and consideration to live out their lives that we expect for ourselves.
The Grey Squirrel
Native by birth – Condemned by origin
Please read the website
www.grey-squirrel.org.uk
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I love the Red Squirrels and often see them in Scotland where I visit every year. I also love the Grey Squirrels, we invited them into our country and they have been here for some time. It has always been a joy to have an entertaining mammal in the garden something I havn't seen for the last few months since Prince Charles waged war on the Greys.
Nothing justifys killing a animal because it isnt't native - life moves on look at changing human population what a joy - lets love our animals and stop killing
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I believe we should do everthing necessary to save our native breeds, including the red squirrel which have contributed to making the British Isles what they are over the millennia. So I feel that grey squirrels as well as other non native but intrusive species such as the American Signal Crayfish which are also decimating our native species and perhaps mink.
When I was younger I would have said you should not cull any animals, but now I see things differently.
**Main Point, I now live in the Isle of Man and WE HAVE NO squirrels :-( so I believe this would be a perfect place to protect the reds but the Manx Government are against it (for whatever reasons). But they are saying that it's not viable because there isn't enough hazel woodland, but I know that coniferous woodland is better for the reds as confirmed by experts on tv and the majority of our woodland is coniferous plantations.
Come on DAFF, bring in the red squirrels, use it for a tourism boost and lets stop having "not our problem" attitude and help the British Isles which we are part of. Pressure from British nature conservation groups could help.
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As someone who was a Forester in the South East of England for 15 years, and who moved to the South Lakes four years ago, I have watched in dismay as the grey squirrels have invaded and overwhelmed this part of the county as far as Eskdale.
But my sadness is not simply limited to a sense of loss over the loss of the lovely red squirrels. I am afraid that the real threat which the grey squirrels represent comes in their capacity to destroy young native broadleaf trees. In fact if their dominance is not challanged I would go as far as to say that growing well formed and stable Oak and Beech trees that reach maturity over a woodland scale will become impossible in the UK.
How, I wonder, does the male presenter of this programme think that his generation will bequeath any wonderful veteran trees to future generations if Foresters are not allowed to do what they know they need to do in order to protect their plantings through the vulnerable years?
People in Britain must realise that grey squirrels absolutely ruin some species of broadleaf tree. They strip bark and allow all sorts of fungal and rot based problems into young and pole stage trees. Grey squirrels are genetically programmed to do this in order to make any particular piece of woodland a better place for them to live and breed (and outcompete the reds!).
Of course it is too late to control grey squirrel numbers on a national scale...........but where people are serious about securing the future of our native broadleaf high forest not controlling squirrel numbers in new plantations amounts to shear stupidity.
I am afraid that when I was involved in significant planting projects across the Midlands and the South of England - including the National Forest - I could never understand the logic of a government policy that would provide capital grants (using public money)for planting broadleaf trees, without insisting on a responsible plan and programme of vermin control over at least the first thirty years of a plantations' establishment phase. Significant quantities of public money have been completely wasted in this way. A noteable example of exactly this waste can be brilliantly demonstrated in the woodlands surrounding Chequers in Buckinghamshire - which is of course the Prime Minister's country estate.
The issue here is not about choosing between red and grey squirrels - it is far too late for that. Rather it is more simply about whether or not we want to see mature Oak and Beech High Forest as part of the future in our British Landscape.....as part of our ongoing national ecology.
This is not an alarmist viewpoint from a blood-thirsty gun slinger - it is a factual observation from a person who loves the woods in this country. Any lowland forester will have true stories of how devastating grey squirrel damage can be to vulnerable trees over very large areas of woodland if local controls are not encouraged and employed.
Please do not make this subject more controversial than it should be. We need to be sensible about this until the vaccine/birth control technology arrives.
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Whew! what an emotive debate! So, fast forward about 50 years... All the grey squirrels have been 'eradicated' (slaughtered), and the reds once more dominate our countryside and towns (yes, why wouldn't they - there's plenty of food for them afterall). And there's a debate in the press about red squrrels being a pest and the need to cull them... Round and round it goes. There will always be humans who believe categorically that we are entitled to control nature. I'm no expert, and I will leave the decisions to those who know. (Not the govt, obviously - they don't know much about anything other than feathering their own nests!) But it seems that the answer is to try and conserve EVERYTHING we have. And like ot or not, we have greys here. Effective management of areas that reds still inhabit seems to be the sensible solution. Shooting greys in your back garden seems like gratuitous violence. And totally pointless.
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As has already been posted on this forum, its our fault that the grey are here. Survival of the fittest is pure stupidity, just like introducing rats or cats onto an island of flightless birds. As a species we need to start clearing up some of the mess we have created, bringing back the beavers is a great example.
On a more positive note, Grey squirrels taste fantastic, my favourite recipes are spring rolls and samosa's. You have to seal and then braise the meat before adding the spices and making the parcels.Low in fat, tasty and solves a problem at the same time.
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Mr Brocklehurst, the Victorian gentleman responsible for the release of two bouncing, Eastern Gray squirrels (Sciurus carolinensis) in Cheshire in 1876 started this problem, but understandably he was unavailable for comment.
However, there is some sound evidence which some people seem to be ignoring here :
- SQPV existed long before the greys came along
- reds are equally culpable of 'stealing birds eggs' or ring barking young trees (don't let their cute looks detract from the fact they are just as damaging in those areas as greys) - the argument about birds eggs when talking about any 'bad guys' (eg magpies, crows, squirrels) in Nature is repetitive and boring, and simply addressed by pointing out that mother birds lay so many eggs, more than would ever survive, for that very reason : not having natural predators of eggs or nestlings would mean we would be completely dominated by songbirds, and no doubt talking about a cull of them instead
- red squirrels were hunted and killed in their thousands by humans, before and after the greys were introduced
- it was us humans who helped push the movement of red squirrels Northwards - by removing coniferous forests for building darn Sarf it was us which essentially evicted them, not grey squirrels
We Brits love an underdog. Yes, it is true to say that the Reds position is fast becoming untenable. No amount of culling of greys around the action areas is going to stop their spread - they are a spectacularly successful species, and why not - they can eat unripe acorns, they're bigger, they're prolific breeders (three litters in Snape Wood this year due to warm Autumn), and killing one grey squirrel may make the part-time red activists feel all warm and fuzzy inside, the simple truth is that by the time the flush dies away from their face, a new grey squirrel will have replaced the old one, and probably brought his friends along too.
I'm going to court controversy - in my opinion, no amount of human intervention is going to stop the spread of the greys into the red areas, no matter how much success can be claimed - the simple fact is natural selection is hard at work - the greys are successful, sadly (and mainly due to man) the reds are in a losing battle in the protected areas.
The approach seems relatively straightforward - the reds need isolating in island communities : look at the success of the Isle of Wight, Brownsea, Anglesey. Isolating animals on islands has been tried with other species and unsurprisingly it works.
The effort needs to be made to translocate the reds to island communities (in the same way hedgehogs were removed from Uist and translocated to mainland Scotland) - it's pointless even beginning to tyry to translocate reds, or to continue a pointless cull of greys.
The one drawback, I concede, is that ecotourism would be lost for the red squirrel. However, if these folks who have red squirrels in their area are completely pragmatic, rather than getting carried away with this passionate diatribe against an introduced species which is being castigated simply for being successful, they would realise that the only way to save the red squirrel community is to isolate them in communities where greys simply cannot get them (and yes, greys can swim, but they hate getting wet !).
Either that, or its a case of completely enclosing the current red squirrel strongholds with huge manmade lakes....
Be pragmatic, not emotional. I did say it was contraversial ;)
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Some brilliant stuff here. Knowledgeable, passionate, forthright and intelligent. Thank you very much.
Please do try to keep personal attacks out of the debate though.
OuzelBird: your name appears as 'You' only on your computer. To everyone else you are OuzelBird.
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The Grey Squirrel is defined as a pest. The damage done not only to trees but to the native birds during the nesting season I believe has a significant effect on some species of birds. For two seasons the Spotted Flycatcher nest was been ransacked by a squirrel, on the first occasion this was witnessed by myself. So as far as I am concerned it is open season in my area on the Grey Squirrel. It should be noted that since I started a campaign against the local squirrel population, some four years, the bird population has increased year on year but for the much loved spotted flycatcher. I think sometimes presenters can forget the real world!!!!!!
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SQUIRREL RECIPE
A few years ago we lived in Lafayette, Louisisna, USA. Our daughter attended a local pre-school, which produced a parents & kids recipe book. This was one.
Daddy's Squirrel Sauce Picante.
Ingredients: 2 large onions, 4 sticks celery, 4 cloves garlic, 2 bell peppers, 1 can whole tomatoes, 2 bay leaves, 1 packet Cajun seasoning mix, 1/8th teaspoon cayenne pepper, squirrels (or sausage).
Directions: Make a roux & stir until browned (20mins?). Add onions, celery, garlic & pepper. Stir until onions are transparent. add tomatoes & bayleaf & parsley. Add squirrels! Add 1 can water. Cook for 2 hrs on medium heat. Stir in Cajun seasoning mix & cayenne. Serve over rice. And no, we've never tried it .
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I live in North Cumbria and over the last 3 years have started to see the greys. Red squirrels have always been in our garden and I would hate to see them disappear. I believe the we definitly need to control. So far I have shot 5 from my garden. The local estate offers £20 per squirrel. I think this kind of reward system is the best way to eradicate the greys. Everyone living in my area is now out to get them!! Not seen one grey so far this year.
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I live in an area of south west scotland where reds dominate, but you lot out there call yourselves conservationists, and would kill a defenseless grey because of it's colour. I have lived in London and taken pleasure in seeing and making contact with the 'friendly' greys in London parks that continue to give pleasure to those who like contact with nature. Rather than kill a defenseless animal it could be taken to an area where it could continue it's life or is that too much effort! and I see a nice word like 'manage' is used to actually mean 'kill'. No greys in this part but even if there were they would not be competing for food as we feed them daily. Oh I better not forget the 'black' squirrels , don't panic they haven't taken over yet ! I don't care if the're blue nothing on earth would make me kill a defenseless squirrel.
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My garden in Bedfordshire is over run by grey squirrels. I try to feed the birds but all I am doing is feeding 20 squirrels.The man who lived here before us walked around with a gun, and when I came here to live the garden was full of all kinds of birds. Six years later hardly any.
I'm afraid time has come to find away of reducing the amount we have.
They dig up the bulbs, eat off the buds & flowers. They are nothing but pretty pests.
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Red squirrels are our native species and I feel that in an area where they still already live everything possible should be done to eradicate the grey squirrel. It is sad that the grey squirrels have already killed out reds in other areas.
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We think the Reds should be saved. Its people that have interfered with nature and we should put it right if we can
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We don't have any Red Squirrels anywhere near us the nearest colony is well over a 100 miles away but we do have Greys. I don't think that it is viable to wipe out the Greys and reintroduce the reds from either a Cost / Biological or Habitat point of View.
I agree that we need to protect the Reds to ensure their survival but I am not anti Grey either. They are really cheeky little characters. And although a lot of you will disagree I feed ours and get a lot of pleasure from watching them, and on a plus side - if I hadn't been feeding that Greys I would never have known that there were nuthatchers in this area who now also come to the bird table for the squirrels food
The Greys have not caused one piece of damage - they have not been agressive to the birds - in fact the squirrels and birds eat at the same bird table at the same time.
We do need to Save the Reds but the Greys aren't the villians here , they just want to survive like everything else.
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Do greys have a right to live? absolutley... but not in my back yard!!
Is the answer culling? not sure, I saw a program about rabbits in Australia where they are feeding them food that makes them sterile, maybe thats more humain? I agree that evidence shows that greys cause alot of damage to woodland, but so do humans and we dont go culling them!
We must protect our native reds, how we do it is yet undecided...
I am lucky, I live on the Isle of Wight, We don't have greys here, maybe safe havens is the way forward not an out and out killing fest.
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I live in Cumbria and love to see all wildlife and don't discriminate because of where they come from, not the robin that migrated to my garden and fights with my 'native' robin for food, or the blackbirds that do the same.
Is it called 'WILDLIFE' or 'CONTROLLED LIFE'?
Red squirrels where hunted to near extinction and then 'non-native' reds where brought in to re-populate, so doesn't that mean most reds aren't native either!
How anyone 'claiming' to love animals can justify the killing of one to save another is beyond me.
This is the first time Chris has upset me supporting the killing of 'wildlife', he usually votes on the side of 'the strongest survive' but i suppose he thinks money (over animals) for Cumbria is more important on this issue. boooooo
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314. At 8:51pm on 07 Nov 2009, Phil
You post is rather biased against grey squirrels.
Early in the last century over 80,000 RED squirrels were shot in Scotland because they were damaging trees.
And the they were castigated as "tree rats"; a term now being just as unfairly used against grey squirrels
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Save a life; feed a grey
The state sponsored campaign of unfair vilification and cruelty against grey squirrels has now reached the point where thousands of these well-loved, friendly and amusing animals are about to be trapped and clubbed to death. This will include the indiscriminate killing of lactating females, which will mean their kittens will starve to death in their dreys – and it is being called “humane”.
So what can members of the public, who disagree with this approach, do to counter this bloodshed without the money machine of government behind them?
Landowners and gardeners can refuse access to trappers and feed grey squirrels where traps are known to be in the vicinity. The latter is known to work in a location where for the past two years grey squirrels have been trapped without any effect on their population level, as they will stay close to where they are fed. It could even increase their fecundity. Trap entrances can also be effectively blocked by something like heavy stones to render them useless but on no account should they be damaged as this could result in a criminal prosecution.
The Grey Squirrel
Native by birth – Condemned by origin
Please read the website
www.grey-squirrel.org.uk
Download our PDF files
“Victimising Grey Squirrels”
and “Save a Life” with printable poster
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Native v Non-Native
I am not a scientist but one who is more than interested in the concept of native and non-native species and the definition that is used to define such categories.
It appears that a key criterion set by the conservation industry for determining if a species is “native” is that it should have evolved with all other species within its own ecosystem and not have been introduced or assisted by man to arrive at what is regarded as its natural location. In short, it should have got to where it is by its own efforts and evolved naturally. If man assisted it, it is regarded as “non-native”.
This is confirmed in Scottish Natural Heritage’s website:
“3.5. Native species are presumed to be those that are present in Great Britain by natural means. In general they migrated (or were transported by other species) into Great Britain after the last Ice Age, without the assistance of humans.”
“3.6. “Non-native species have been introduced to Great Britain, either deliberately or accidentally, by humans.”
However, SNH’s criterion above can only be credible in relation to individual members of a species if they wrongly regard the activities of humans as outside of nature. As every single thing we do, without exception, is a product of our own evolution, it should follow that if we transport an animal or plant to our homeland it is an entirely natural act – no less so than that of any other mammal.
It appears to me that certain members of the scientific community, particularly those in “conservation”, are picking and choosing where and when they wish to regard the activities of humans as natural to suit their agendas. Indeed, one such member recently told me; “Yes, I know that is your view but there happens to be an opposing view which you are never going to agree with but which is the one which holds sway. Live with it”. This was hardly a scientific response or explanation – more of a fudge.
In reality, rather than in what appears to be within the arbitrary and profoundly prejudiced world of “conservation”, all fauna and flora “born” in this country are as “native” by birth as we are. To expect tolerance within our own population but condemn animals and plants to death and destruction on the basis of their ancestral background seems extremely hypocritical and only one step removed from racism.
In our ever-increasingly violent society, what example is it to younger generations that violence and killing is an acceptable solution to a perceived problem of someone or something being non-native to this country?
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Sorry I forgot to add some things.
The grey squirrels where dying out from squirrelspox untill they developed an immunity which saved them. If the greys can do it, surely the reds can too in time. If not, doesn't it make evolutionary sence to let them work it out for themselves anyway.
There are islands around the UK that greys will never reach (unless man takes them there) that would provide sanctuary for reds, thus still be apart of our wildlife.
It would cost alot of money to trap and kill the greys 'forever', a constant fight against wildlife, stoping it from being 'wildlife' and making it 'controlled life'!!!
SAVE GREY SQUIRRELS!!!!!!
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Having seen at first hand the damage done by grey squirrels, and also being over sixty years old and never having seen our native red squirrels, please help the reds
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Thedemiseof the red squirrel was not the fault of the grey squirrel but speople shooting them in their thousands in the 1930,s. Indeedd special gin clubs were organised to shoot them. The most notorious was probably the one in Cornwall
and thousands were massacred inScotland but nobodymentions this now. They just blame the grey squirrel which later took advantage of the situation. A grey squirrel is better than no squirrel at all.
EdwarRus
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Wow this is a tough subject! As a lover of all things great and small I find it impossible to pick a side on this. I think red squirrels are a truly beautiful part of our heritage and think it would be devasating to see them disappear entirely from our countryside...on the otherhand I find it hard to condone killing, well killing anything living really; I'm absolutely terrified of wasps and even then would rather go through the fearful hell of trying to get one to fly out of the house than ever dream of killing one!
I know there has to be a 'sensible' solution to this (not everyone can be as daft as me!) but is there no way of just 'seperating' the squirrels rather than killing one or the other?
Chris Packham mentioned that there are areas which house grey squirrels only and have no near future signs of reds returning...would it not be a more humane solution then to capture rather than kill grey squirrels in 'red' areas and move them to areas populated soley by greys. Also would adapting their enviroments (planting trees and plants aimed specifically at encouraging greys in grey areas and reds in red areas) to encourage the species to stay seperate not help? If they have everything they need in their own area, with the exception of the odd squirrel with itchy feet, maybe it will encourage them to stay more seperate?
I realise realistically that all this would probably cost a fortune and (unfortunately) as money has to be an issue would probably not be the most economic solution, but if it is feasable to seprate rather than kill animals maybe that too should be a consideration?
In an ideal world maybe it would but then again in an ideal world no animals would be on the endangered list and the environment wouldn't be in trouble...
I think sadly the solution to the squirrel problem will have to be a harsh reality and I truly respect the people who are currently making these tough choices to try and solve the issue so we can still enjoy a beautiful world (full of both red and grey squirrels)
Thanks guys.xx
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Take a look at some examples of what has happened in New Zealand and learn from it. Please read the articles on Possums and non native species. We can learn a lot from this.
http://www.doc.govt.nz/conservation/threats-and-impacts/animal-pests/animal-pests-a-z/
Do you want a more diverse world where everything is the same.
Remove non native wildlife.
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Reds are Not Actually Truly Native to UK anyway they originated from Scandinavia!!!
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....So why can't they just reintroduce as they have done so with other species such as Beavers???
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I am really angry that Autumn Watch gave details of recipes for eating squirrels. The fact is that almost all the red squirrels in the UK are no more native than the greys, as all but a few are the result of introductions from Scandinavia to replace previous die-offs a British red squirrels long before greys arrived. The Scandinavian red squirrels are creatures of the great coniferous forests, whereas the original British sub-species thrived in decidous woodlands, except for persecution by foresters and gamekeepers (because reds take eggs and strip bark too!) Reds were officially persecuted and slaughtered in their thousands, even in the New Forest right up until 1930. In Scotland a single 'squirrel club' killed 84,000 red squirrels in the first 30 years of the 20th Century. As for killing greys because they carry, but are not effected by, parapox virus, this is nonsensical. Clearly if a red squirrel is found to have died from the disease, it is almost certain to have caught it from another red. Are we therefore to slaughter all the red squirrels in the area and replace them with more 'clean ones'imported from elsewhere? Leave the greys alone. They didn't ask to be brought to Britain by the aristocracy, and for most of us, it is the only squirrel we are likely to see regularly. Finally, for those who might fancy eating them (parapox virus and all!) remember that the offspring of that squirrel may have died lingering deaths from starvation in their dreys due to your perverse appetites.
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Some form of compromise must be reached to ensure both red and grey squirrels are controlled. Perhaps introducing zones in the country for each type. Eliminating the grey is not the answer. I last saw red squirrels in the 50's in my village of Hamble but now enjoy the antics of the grey as I enjoyed the cuteness of the red all those years ago.
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The red squirrel population has been boosted my Scandinavian stock, but at least it is the same species and therefore belongs where it is. It's the sheer numbers of grey squirrels that is the problem.
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I wholeheartedly agree with Chris, why decimate the Grey Squirrel in all areas. I live in an area where we will probably never see a Red but we love our Grey's who come to feed on the bird table, even if I do groan when it pinches all the lovely Hazelnuts from my tree.
What right have we to hand out death sentences on any wild animal. If we go on killing the Greys I can see the day coming when people will be wailing there are no squirrels left.
Keep the Red's in the areas that they are now thriving and endeavor to keep the Grey's out of those areas by all means but DON'T kill off the Greys just for the sake of a few Reds dotted hear and there and spoil the enjoyment of many people and children who watch them in our parks and gardens and who otherwise would never see a squirrel except on television.
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I think if there is a way of saving the red squirrel, we should at least try! I live in the southeast, and when i was a child we were surrounded by reds, they really were beautiful to watch and much frendlier. As i grew up they rather quickly dissapeared and were replaced by greys. I remember feeling very sad, and now even in places where you could see large colonies of reds, they to have now gone. It's about time something was done to stop the loss of anymore!
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Tim Scoones was completely wrong when he said that there was no point in culling grey squirrels in areas where there were no reds.
Does he not know they the greys are causing major damage to our broadleaf woodlands by stripping bark ? Ask any forester ! In our own three acre garden in Sussex they have destroyed three young trees completely and have severely damaged others. I have shot nearly 100 over the last few years and still they keeping coming. In addition to tree damage they raid birds' nests and eat the eggs thus depleting our wild bird population. They are a major pest and need to be eradicated. The battle continues !
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I remember back in the 1960's when I was a little girl going walking with my parents and dog through The Common in Letchworth Herts where there was always loads of red squirrels. I don't think there are any left there now. I have now lived, for three years, on the coast in Lincolnshire and we have two grey squirels come into our garden 2-3 times daily to eat the nuts and seeds off our bird table. I still have the same warm feeling of seeing these two playing in the garden as I did all those years ago watching the red squirrels as a young girl.
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Wildlife management inevitably means that some species need to be prioritised over others. If we simply leave the countryside to work itself out then the only species that would eventually survive would be generalist pest species such as magpies, crows, rats, grey squirrels, foxes etc. If we want to preserve rare and vulnerable species then we have to remove the reason for their decline. I believe that we should eradicate grey squirrels and allow the native red to recolonise the areas where it previously ranged. All this rediculous talk about 'racism' is ill informed liberal townie claptrap. Grey squirrels are vermin and should be removed. Just because they are cute, doesnt mean they have anymore right to live!! They're a pest just like a weed and need to be removed. i bet the grey squirrel huggers don't feel the same way about rats or maggots. I manage deer in Northumberland and I see plenty of red squirrels but if I see a grey one, I shoot it on site.
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Much as I am in favour of saving the Red Squirrel I am very concerned that the Grey Squirrel is being victimised and is being blamed for the demise of the Red Squirrel and for giving it the virus that kills it but Jessica Holm who did her PhD on Squirrels says in her book on this subject that even when no Grey Squirrels lived in the habitat of the Red Squirrels they still got the virus. They need a different habitat from Grey Squirrels and she says that the Red Squirrels often starve in the summer because they do not eat the varied diet that the Grey Squirrels will eat. I think it is very wrong to cull the Grey Squirrels and that it is cruel to trap them and hit them over the head or shoot them and there seems to be a vendetta against Grey Squirrels. We should remember that the Grey Squirrel comes from America and that Britain depends very much on American tourists and as a member of the American Grey Squirrel Lovers Club I know that their members are very concerned about the cruel cull of the Grey Squirrels in Britain. I do not think the Red Squirrel should be saved at all costs and that it should be survival of the fittest. Jessica Holm says in her book that even when she gave the Red Squirrels an abundance of food even then they did not thrive as well as the Grey Squirrels. I would like a stop put to the cull. Grey Squirrels bring a great deal of pleasure to many people who may never see a Red Squirrel in their lives not least since they tend to live at the very top of the trees.
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Given this debate has already diverted from a strictly cull the grey to save the red one, pray let me mix it up still further! Firstly though may I congratulate Kathy on her statement that "I have more respect for someone if they admitted they enjoy killing", because therein lies a truth for all involved in so-called fieldsports that demands we do not shrink from. The bad news for Kathy is the truth that is without the taking of life the hunter's soul remains unfulfilled for what all campaigners against hunting (in any form) fail to recognise is that hunting is a religion and to be pursued with no less passion than any other that seeks spiritual fulfilment. This is frankly all ones needs to say and sadly is not given the prominence it deserves in debate. Hiding behind the "they need to be controlled" banner was always destined to fail as this never addresses the singular question of why then it needs to be me that pulls the trigger. Understanding that question and being comfortable with what flows is the only justification needed when allied to a similar intent to do anything other than suppress the hunting gene provided by our Creator. But back to squirrels!
What appears to have been overlooked is what I strive to achieve when culling grey squirrel. The word is BALANCE. Of all the private non forestry-related estates I undertake wildlife control for I know of not one in the South East who would wish to see the grey eradiated for without squirrel a wood is a dead one. This sits perfectly with me as eradiation is similarly nowhere on my agenda and for the simple reason - one known to all hunters throughout the US - that squirrels provide the finest hunting to be had with a rifle bar none. They also taste very good which accounts for why nearly all US States impose a close season and refer to them as "game" rather than varmints.
Just to be clear I LOVE grey squirrels!
So then here's my take on where we need to be:
1. Eradiate they Grey (if possible) where the Red still exists and along those key buffer zones.
2. Cull grey squirrels in accordance with numbers; damage inflicted and the sensitivity of the habitat they occupy.
3. Forget any idea of a UK-wide eradication programme unless Government are prepared to turn my part-time voluntary wildlife management services into a full-time paid one along with hundreds more like-mined citizens who endeavour to combine their passion with a responsible and professional approach.
Cheers
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While I am fond of the Red Squirrel and think that some effort should be made to protect them, I do love the Grey Squirrel.
It is also worth remembering that again it was humans that brought them here - we are to blame! Really, is there any difference in watching a Grey Squirrel scampering about the garden or park to a Red? Both very cute and amusing, both existing in the way they know how, both with families to feed.
The Grey has rights I believe and I am fiercely against anyone going out and taking pot shots at them and this should not be encouraged.
Perhaps more suitable predators? Allowing the fox to share our space more, more larger birds of prey?
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Well most on here are getting on about why we should not cull the Greys to save the Reds.
Well what will all of you that have that arguement say when say in 20 years timme we have no Reds left because the Greys have taken over all of the country, and the disease they carry has killed all the Reds.
The Government have a policy in force at the moment to KILL Badgers because they are suppose to carry a disease which we can get via Cattle, even though there is no proof of it, but the Farmers want it.
So if this government can have a culling policy for one animal why not another, at leasst in areas where the Reds are pentiful at this moment in time so to save them, from eventually becaming extinct in this country, which will happen if nothing is done to protect them.
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i love the grey squirrels they see4m more cheecky and recently rum one over while driving and it broke my heart to know that i was responsible for murdering one they didn.t ask to live in the uk the romans brought them here as a food sourse, so why should they be killed for just being able to adapt to another climit and survive.
few days after i hit one i was driving home a spotted a little grey jay walking nice and slowly down the middle of our council estate not a care in the world and when i barped my horn to get hime to move he turned round and just looke dleft then right and carried on walking in the road. he eventually legged it. before a 2nd car turned up.
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From a Welsh perspective:
The reds have been doing well on Anglesey and are 'branching' out
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/walesnature/2009/10/shades_of_grey.html
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Save the Red Squirrel!
I think we should eradicate the Grey Squirrel. It's all very well having this cuddly, fluffy, view of them, but they are a pest. Maybe 'we' did introduce them and it's not their fault. We also introduced the Coypu, which was on course for destroying the Norfolk Broads, should we have allowed them to carry on. No.
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I grew up in cornwall and loved watching the grey squirrels there. I think we should only kill grey squirrel's in places where they come into contact with reds. I also think we should look into ways of saving reds without killing greys such as making a vaccine for squirrel pox. For me it seems a shame to needlessly kill greys in places where they come into no contact with reds. There's just no point.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
As a Nature and Natural world lover and fan, I know that we should save the Red Squirrels and other animals of course. So yes let us save the Red Squirrels now. Mr Lee Luckham.
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Red Squirrels definitely should be saved. I can only see the vaccine as being a good long term solution and I don't really agree with killing all the grey squirrels - perhaps the greys could be relocated?
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Save the Red Squirrel And if You Can not the HELP US Do it. @
www.glensredsquirrelgroup.com
We are Trying but we need more support.
If you live in an area where there are only greys then you should support areas where there are RED squirrels because they are keeping the RED alive in those ares and as the numbers of Reds get bigger the will make their way back to other areas.
So Help US Thank You.
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'The bad news for Kathy is the truth that is without the taking of life the hunter's soul remains unfulfilled for what all campaigners against hunting (in any form) fail to recognise is that hunting is a religion and to be pursued with no less passion than any other that seeks spiritual fulfilment'
Says a poster above, hunting is not a religion it is not based on any philisophy and does not have it's origins in compassion and kindness which is the basis for religions. If one needs to 'seek spiritual fulfillment' by killing other beings I would say they ought to see a shrink!
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There is no such thing as a 'balance of nature' in this country. There are so many introduced species that can outcompete our native ones that the only way to preserve the native ones is to cull the invading species and give our natives a helping hand. Grey squirrels don't belong here, Red squirrels do. There are plenty of keen airgun hunters on Britain who would enjoy the opportunity to help with the grey squirrel cull. Once eradicated, the reds could be reintroduced into those areas and allowed to recolonise. It might take many decades, but in the long run we would get our native tree-rat back in all areas.
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I agree with Kathy and Platinumspliffy and others that killing gray squirrels is wrong. Like it or not grays are native animals in the UK now! Many animals we consider native were introduced at some time. How long must an animal reside here to become native ? I live in a place where there are NO squirrels to be seen, red or gray and I would give anything to see just one gray squirrel.Gray squirrels are beautiful animals and one of the few mammels most people can see regularly in their gardens.We would be poorer without them and take it from somebody who has none - you would miss them !
Since grays prefer broadleaved woods and reds prefer pine forest there
must be lots of places where they do not compete at all. Yes there will be areas where territories overlap but this is the case with a lot of animals and the animals just have to sort it out themselves.
Yes, do all we can to increase and protect red squirrels and trap and
remove grays from red areas but RELOCATE them, don,t kill them ! As for the threat of disease - get a vaccine ! Vaccinate only the reds and maybe disease will reduce numbers of grays.
Anyone who actively supports killing them, especially with airguns as Matt suggests is NOT an animal lover and it is because of people like that we have animal welfare laws and thank God we do !
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Chris Packham is very naive to say that grey squirrel control is only necessary where they interface with reds. Our garden was devoid of songbirds although we had many grey squirrels. One day I watched one eating a baby bird. We also had many nests thrown out of trees, eggs broken open etc. There are no more greys in our 1 acre garden now and it is alive with birds. Everyone who comes into the garden remarks on how many birds we have. Where an area is overrun with Greys there is a drastic effect on birds. They really do neeed to be eradicated and not tolerated.
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I would be interested to know where Mike thinks Grey squirrels should be relocated to? Firstly, they are a destructive pest which cause millions of pounds of damage to valuable hardwood trees and it is illegal to release a captured grey squirrel into another area, you are legally obliged to humanely kill it, not inflict it on another area. Secondly, it is perfectly legal to shoot grey squirrels with an airgun and it does not break any animal welfare laws at all providing the hunter has permission from the landowner and is safe and responsible. An airgun of a suffient power (12Ft.Lbs) can easily kill a grey squirrel instantly with a well placed shot to the head. As a hunter, I do not wish to inflict suffering on animals and I will always take the most humane shot possible to kill it as cleanly as possible. I am also thankful of the animal welfare laws that prevent deliberate cruelty to domestic and wild animals but humane pest control is not cruel, no suffering is inflicted on the animal, just a swift and clean death. The squirrel doesn't even know the hunter is there so it is not anticipating the death. This in contrast to poison and cage traps - both of which are legal also, where the squirrel suffers a lingering death by warfarin poison or a terrifying one being despatched from a cage trap into a sack at close quarters.
It is a fact of effective wildlife management that regrettably killing is necessary at times, but when this is so we owe the animals to be killed a swift and humane despatch. Relocation and contraceptive methods would not be effective and would prove too expensive in the long run. Controlled shooting by responsible sportspersons is the only effective method.
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It seems that everyone is looking at vacinations and culls but what about putting some of the 'squirrel cash' into captive breeding and release projects in regions where the greys are not doing so well?
We are doing it for salmon and several birds like red kites and cranes so isn't it about time we started doing it for the reds? I live in South East Northumberland - an area with very few reds and even fewer greys but loads of potential squirrel sites where released reds would do extremely well.
Long term we need a vaccine for the reds and continue with the cull of greys but short term the release of captive bred reds is definately the way forward!
Mark Mowbray
www.markie.eu
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Kathy wrote:
"........ hunting is not a religion it is not based on any philisophy and does not have it's origins in compassion and kindness which is the basis for religions. If one needs to 'seek spiritual fulfillment' by killing other beings I would say they ought to see a shrink!"
This is a disappointing response as I had expected a far more reasoned and profound counter argument. However, the lack of weight here should provide hunters of grey squirrel across the land with comfort as it demonstrates that both Kathy and her cause is someway from being able to cope with the honesty of purpose as I thought she craved.
As a minority who seeks and takes spiritual fulfilment from hunting as a whole; the act of taking a creature's live is but one part of the experience albeit a crucial one, I may justifiably refer to my life's driving force as a "religion" with no less justification than those who pronounce that "football is a way live - a religion".
My understanding of religion is one where a disciple strives to live their life in total subservience to ones calling and that, Kathy, is what I strive for and in turn derive spiritual fulfilment from.
Many people enjoy that same fulfilment, that conventional religion as you describe it cannot provide, through simply being close to nature and as so eloquently conveyed by authors such as R Jeffries and HD Thoreau. Clearly in my case the hunting gene remains strong and only when I combine an autumn-scented wood with a wiff of cordite and a bag of grey squirrels am I truly fulfilled.
The only possible justification for depriving me of the need to hunt is if soiecty decides otherwise. That day has yet to dawn and, if the rocketing interst in the outdoors as promoted by the likes of Ray Mears, allied to a yearning to once again bond with nature is anything to go by, I believe it is someway off.
Cheers
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I worked for nearly two years in an area where red squirrels were still the dominant species and I found them enchanting. I really feel we should be trying to save them, because they are the native species and the greys were introduced by man. We introduced them, so we need to control them with a culling program as suggested with the population being controlled in a buffer zone round a red habitat. I don't like the idea of vaccines and drugs being involved or sterilization procedures - that's just more meddling by man. Culling works as long as it is done by properly trained people.
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All you people who say there is no point saving the reds because you haven't seen one for years are missing the point! Come to Scotland where they are still strong and you won't be saying that. Just because something has become common place to see (likes greys in the south of england), it doesn't mean it is right. Dan speaks sense at least!
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We used to have a good hazelnut crop in this country, now the grey squirrel takes the nuts in August before they are fully ripe. They strip the trees of nuts which, even if they cache them, are not ripe enough to germinate. So there is no crop and no reproduction of the tree. We import nuts from round the world and it is a shame that we do not have our own native nut. I would definitely support getting rid of the grey and reintroducing the red. If this action was done simultaneously I think many people would agree.
I wonder if we were to prevent a squirrel from breeding, and the animal was eaten by another animal, if this would prevent the predator, scavenger from breeding.
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Chris has not mentioned other damage caused by greys. TREES cost money to replace.Plus predation on our native birds. I have been reducing Greys within my garden,since I started there has been a dramatic rise in the small bird population .Thats worth a NATION wide cull of the greys.Bring it on I say.
Youngted
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I think we should do away with the grey squirrel, as they cause so much damage to young trees,they also take eggs form hedge nesting birds and in the garden they dig up bulbs eat some small plants that have just been planted out take young fruiting pears and apples off the trees.
But the main thing is they give the Reds a pox which they can not fight off.
If we got rid of all the Greys then the Reds would repopulate the wood lands.
Chris is no gardener or woodsman,if he was his outlook would be a lot different.
If he feels we should not get rid of them can he say what good they are to the country side.
As I have not seen any benifits in my time in forest, country side or gardens,which amounts to over fifty years.
Grumpycarter193
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I would just say, in reply to those calling the Grey Squirrel a pest, I can understand to some extent, but the main species I would label as pest is humans! I think we should properly look at our own actions, sports & pastimes, desease spreading, etc, etc.
I challenge anyone to name one species that does more damage to the planet than the average human....
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In last week's Autumnwatch it was stated that greys don't present a physical threat to reds. Today I watched a grey chasing a red up a tree, the red certainly semed to feel threatened!
Also, Chris Packham said that there was no point killing greys except in the areas around red trongholds. That is nonsense, the more greys there are the more pressure there will be on territory and the more they will encroach on the reds. It is like the scientific principle of diffusion.
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I cannot believe in this day and age we are resorting to culling a friendly little animal such as the grey squirrel in order to protect it's cousin the red.In actual fact it is we who are taking over and interfering with the habitat of both these types of squirrel, therefore that is where the problem arises.Oh dear HUMAN intervention AGAIN.Both are beautiful little animals and there is no nice way to murder. They are trying to make the cull of the greys sound humane. Let me stick their heads in a bag and club it a few times or gas them and tell me that is humane. Leave the greys alone and find a way they can both survive. The squirrel pox virus has been blown up out of all proportion and anyway just like when rabbits were given the horrible mixiemetosis to reduce their numbers, they developed immunity to it. Yours Hazel Earl
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I have to disagree with Hazel
Grey squirrels are damaging to forestry. I know from the experience of several friends that they are vicious to humans if cornered, not a "friendly little animal". They are officially classed as "vermin" for good reason.
And how can you see anything humane in allowing reds to die the horrible death that the pox brings? As for "being blown up out of all proportion", it killed about 90% of the Formby red squirrel population, and they were lucky, everywhere else it has been 100%.
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Sorry Hazel, but the Grey squirrel is NOT a friendly little creature, it's a destructive and predatory opportunist. Just because it is appealing to look at does not mean it shouldnt be killed in the same way as other pest species (rats, wasps, blue bottles etc.). Those who live in the countryside and work in wildlife management know how to manage pests and know what anumals are really like. It's not Beatrix Potter out there, nature is red in tooth and claw and because humans have rearranged the ecology of the british countryside we are duty bound to intervene to prevent invasive alien species from dominating our long established natives. If we don't cull the grey squirrel then the red will be lost forever.
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I'm sure I've overlooked the following like comments here but has anyone really stopped to consider the task of eradication?
Notwithstanding this is unlikely to figure highly on any politician's agenda given we have biggest recession in the last thirty years to address along with an imminent flu pandemic, failing schools and inner city gun crime at its highest ever level, how long would it take to pass the critical legislation required to ensure compliance by private landowners and with suitable enforcement powers?
Then there is the thousands, not "hundreds" I previously referred to, who'd be required to act as "Control Operators" and of course the Government kwango to monitor the whole process. Oh how I can just see the role of the "Man From The Ministry:
"Right Sir! Our survey of this here wood has you down as owning 104 grey squirrels yet, our Whitehall HQ reports receiving but 22 tails and 3 of which, not being of the fully formed variety, strongly suggests manipulation of your quarterly target. No excuses please Sir as we've heard it all before - just sign to acknowledge this enforcement order with a deadline of 31/04/10 to return the remaining 4 or we'll see you in court!
Just a thought.
Cheers
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It shouldnt be the government that conducts the grey squirrel eradication, they have proved themselves to be wholey incompetant when it comes to rural policy, they know nothing about wildlife management. No, the country sports organisations such as the British Association for Shooting and Conservation, the National Gamekeepers Organisation, the Game Conservancy Trust, and the Countryside Alliance - people who genuinely know about pest control and wildlife management are the best people to get landowners motivated. We don't need any 'trained control operatives', there are 5 million shotgun certificate holders in the UK and God knows how many airgun owners many of whom are responsible and competant hunters. If it was coordinated by the organisations and landowners (I'm not suggesting that just anyone should go out and shoot squirrels without permission) then a few years of concentrated culling would severely reduce the population. This would be a long term solution and once greys were not evident in a certain area then reds could be reintroduced.
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I'd love to think this was the answer but it overlooks one key component, namely that ALL landowners would need to participate and voluntarily. This just wouldn't happen as demonstrated in the case of Highland deer management where certain private estates have, I understand, been forced to take action to reduce numbers. Can you honestly see Sir Paul McCartney, as just one example, granting you permission to roam free with a rifle on any of his estates be you of "competent hunter" status or not?
Cheers
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Without effective culling of grey squirrels, the red will become extinct on mainland Britain within a very short period of time. Culling grey squirrels at the "interface" with reds is not a viable option and to suggest this is feasible for the sake of Ecotourism misses the point completley. The habitat of the red squirrel is constantly being erroded, it is defensesless against the Para poxvirus and its' reproductive rate is significantly less than that of the grey. By contrast the grey thrives in diverse habitat enjoys a burgeoning population, last estimated at 2.5 million and has the notoriety of listing within the top 100 of the worlds worst invasive alien species.
Rapid and effective action is required now y ALL conservation bodies, to save not only the red squirrels but also many of our garden and woodland bird species. The grey squirrel is a major predator of nesting birds and an adept egg thief. If anyone is in doubt about this, they shoud visit www.pinsharpphotography.co.uk/blog/ where there is photographic documentary evidence of a grey with not one but two Spotted Flycatcher's eggs in its mouth. The image says it all!
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Greys and Reds have a future, but not together. The culling of Greys is the only real option but in a controlled and organised manner. Where pockets of terrotory can be claimed as Grey free, then Reds should be reintroduced as a matter of course. We need to see our wild life in abundance, killing off one in the hope others will re colonise is a game of chance.
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OK, lets assume that full Government support/intervention is unlikely and it falls to the Organisations mentioned by Liz and Matt - the ones who don't sit on the fence due to membership makeup - to both promote and undertake culling where they have authority and in the interest of wider conservation. Given this would require input and commitment by the many voluntary Wildlife Managers and further mindful the two key restraints to what can be achieved are time and travel, there would need to be a mechanism by which at least the latter restraint, imposed by prohibitive and ever-rising fuel costs, was mitigated. Without 'help' in meeting volunteer's costs a meaningful cull will never be achieved despite the passion and commitment available from our ranks.
Put another way a key component of a UK-wide cull has to be that of funding and I'm not convinced it would be sufficient to simply offer a "bounty" for each grey killed however attractive the concept of performance-related payments may first appear.
I hope this is a valid observation in the contact of the debate and apologies if I appear to have too much to say on the subject!
Cheers
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I was very surprised and disappointed that no-one on last weeks Autumnwatch mentioned the devastation that greys can cuse in woodland, so I was glad to see that this has been picked up by some bloggers. I live in the Forest of Dean, and beech trees in particular suffer very badly from squirrel damage. They have killed beech and maple trees in my own garden too
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If greys can be eradicated on Anglesey they can be eradicated from a bigger island too! Since Lord Redesdale and Paul Parker's grey culling work in Northumberland, on a very modest budget, I believe reds have been seen in places they have not been seen since the greys arrived.
It is a convenient cop-out to say greys cannot be eradicated. As I said in a previous post countless millions of passenger pigeons (with the ability to fly away!) were exterminated from a vast continent, North America, without the benefit of modern technology.
The alternative is the eventual extinction of the red squirrel from Britain and, since greys were introduced to Northern Italy, from the European continent too. All we need is for some idiot to introduce greys to Scandinavia and that would be it for the red squirrel!
I have watched a sessile oak woodland in Wales become totally infested with huge numbers of grey squirrels over recent years.This last year was the first year I have known that wood warblers failed to breed there. Spotted flycatchers are barely hanging on! Fortunately pied flycatchers are relatively safe in my nestboxes!
Coincidence? Anyone who has the least grasp of ecology and spends alot of time in the field looking and learning can draw his or her own conclusions without needing scientific proof! The anecdotal evidence is overwhelming!
Who are these people who say that culling greys makes no difference? I, and one other neighbour that I know of, cull greys in our gardens in a rural village so there is always food for the birds. Many squirrel-proof feeders are not! There is now an impressively large squirrel-free area and other neighbours are grateful. Not a single person has bemoaned the disappearance of the grey!
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I would love to see a red squirrel - I am an Australian living in Hertfordshire and must tell Chris that Black Squirrels live in Stevenage, Baldock and Letchworth. I have seen them in my friend's gardens many times. Love Autumwatch!!
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I haven't had time to read ALL of the comments, but I had to laugh at those calling it RACIST to eradicate grey squirrels - hilarious!
Anyway, lets put it another way - for those who argue that it's unfair (or racist!) to erradicate the more 'successful' species... If skunks were to become very successful in the UK, but it was found they competed with badgers for food and carried a virus that killed badgers, would this be okay?
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I said before that a large number of people who are anti the culling of grey squirrels only seem to hold such views because grey squirrels are undeniably attractive animals. If we were talking about competition between brown rats and red squirrels then there would be no question of not undertaking a cull as most people do not find rats cute in same way as squirrels. The BBC claims to be impartial in it's political views toward to countryside but all it's nature programs (which are generally beautifully filmed) are generally narrated in a very sentimentalist and anti-hunting/ field sports kind of way. The likes of Chris Packham and Bill Oddie appear to openly hold anti fieldsports views and the view that conservation should mean preservation of ALL species and that the Countryside is simply a playground for Townies to entertain themselves in and not a working environment for a great many people. The BBC did away with David Bellamy and Robin Page because they had sympathies with hunting, shooting and fishing. It is never stated on any BBC countryside program that shooting interests manage most of the Ancient woodland and upland moorland habitats in a way that greatly helps a huge number of species to thrive and helps to remove a large number of predators which would otherwise reduce biodiversity of species lower down the food web. Shooting and fishing brings much needed cash into rural areas and shoot managers spend more on conservation than any of the pure conservation bodies, whereas rambling, mountain biking, bog snorkelling and tree-hugging do not. However, the BBC routinely reports on such events, but rarely reports in traditional and legal country sports. This recent defense of grey squirrels is just another example of insipid sentimental anthropomorphism that clouds common sense and blocks effective wildlife management. Sorry to rant, but thats how I see it!
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Red squirrel debate argument put forward is total rubbish. The Grey is North American they have also our Red squirrel the same one as here. The two breeds live together, infact the Red is the more aggressive one to his cousin, anyone from North America will confirm this position. Experts I have listerned to need to take a trip there, I rekon the problem is these elitist characters need an excuss to shoot up the Grey squirrel for what they describe as sport! Nature will always keep on evolving man can't stop that from happening, or was Darwin wrong?
Mick 11/11/09
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to look at measures allowing them to co-exist, and/or introduce more red-squirrel safe sites around the UK, our islands included. i am one for the beautiful reds ....
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I am completely against the culling of healthy and beautiful animals in an attempt to conserve a threatened species. Who is to say which species are now native and which are foreign? In my lifetime, apart from visits to the Lake District, I have seen only grey sqirrels and have been thrilled by their agility and attractiveness. Leave them alone. E I Taylor
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Since this thread started I have blagged 3 greys with my air rifle that have been chewing thro my wooden clog nut holder, stealing food off the bird table and destroying the apples on my trees. Perhaps Dr Taylor (is that medical, philosophical or taught doctorate) and all the other 'lets leave them alone' whingers got a diagnosis now!!!!!!!
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By the way I am only a Master of Science
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We should do all we possibly can to save our native red squirrel, the grey's have become far too numerous and are complete pests. I'm sick of them digging everything up in my garden in the autumn when it gets to nut storing time, and they're so brazen when I try to chase them away - they just stand and glare at me until I'm really close up to them! One of this year's youngsters is even nicking glass marbles which I normally keep in the bottom of a shallow dish of water for the birds to drink from - do you think they've learned how to play???
I've confiscated them for now!
On a serious note, the Tresco Estate on the Isles of Scilly where I go for my hols each year, is looking into the feasibility of introducing a colony of reds on the island - what a great plan if it takes off! They could live and breed there in complete safety.
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VERY OPPOSED to the mass killing of grey squirrels under any circumstances, none more so than for the sake of 'eco-tourism' - money making - disgusting. Shame on the presenters of this programme to be for it too. We're all entitled to be on this earth - let's leave grey squirrels alone.
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I understand that on the Scottish borders, where pine martins are present, the grey squirrels are being halted. This is due to the fact that being a larger heavier animal, than the red, pine martins find them easier to catch than reds. They are not able to get into the higher lighter branches that the reds can. This being the case why nor re-introduce pine martins into the Lake District, & other areas where reds are under attack from greys. As well as helping the reds, it would be good to use a rare native predator as a natural control rather than trapping & shooting. Before anyone states the obvious, I know that the martins will catch some reds & other birds & mammals, but the greys will be kept in check.
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The only good grey squirrel is a dead one, killed humanely of course. You can get a squirrel trap from B&Q and DEFRA I think produce a PDF on killing them in an exceptable manner. It's a rat with a bushy tail, were only having this discussion because they look cute.
The Forrestry commission says http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/infd-6l4fdh#control
The grey squirrel represents a serious and growing threat to our native woodlands and priority species. These threats arise principally through:
the stripping of bark leading to the deterioration of trees, reduced income for woodland owners and a reduction in woodland management and associated public benefits;
competition with the native red squirrel and spreading the squirrelpox virus;
predation of birds nests and competition with endangered species such as the dormouse.
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Culling grey squirrels - what a exorbitant waste of money, which would not even achieve it's aim - tried before & failed. Money would be better spent doing absolutely ANYTHING else, for instance, why not plant a forest.
Where there are simply no reds or even a chance of reds returning, e.g. in our metropolis like London - the cheeky greys should be allowed to live & added to the biodiversity of the area. Life in London would be very dull without a broad diversity of wildlife, which includes the grey squirrel, greys can get people actually engaging in their natural environment.
To claim that greys cause such destruction is ridiculous, the greatest damage to trees is caused by humans - either badly managing trees with their chainsaws, or blatant destruction to trees by youths et al & their dangerous dogs, just visit any public housing estate. The greatest threat to birds is equally from people primarily with their pets - CATS!
So lay off our wildlife biodiversity, we - humanity did after all interfere with the natural order of things by moving many animal & plant species around the world, it's too late now to turn the clocks back on our grey squirrel mistakes.
So put up & shut up - CHRIS YOU'RE RIGHT - THANKS.
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Culling grey squirrels is not a waste of money it's a hobby and as for peoples cats don't get me started!
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hi i love autumn watch. would be a supporter of dealing with greys in some way. culling and eating is the discussion in our house. i live in the west of ireland we only have red squirrels which i see. it would be so horrible if greys invade they are crossing the country. i would do my best to join any plan that kept them away.this is the first time i have joined an on line anything and feel so strongly motivated by the subject matter to do so.
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Forget about the greys competing with the reds.
Grey squirrels eat songbird eggs and are largly responsible for the decline in songbirds both in urban and rural areas. I am suprised that Chris was unaware of this.
If you think of them as bush tailed tree rats they are easier to kill!!
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I was disgusted to hear a wildlife show like Autumnwatch read out a recipe for eating a grey squirrel on last Friday's Unsprung. I'm even more furious with the person who sent it,saying that just because the grey wasn't originally native to Britain,it deserves to be killed and eaten. What a disgraceful thing to say.
Had that type of attitude been applied to human immigrants,it would be racism at it worst. This is planet Earth - we ALL belong wherever we are able to live,regardless of colour and origin. Today's grey squirrels have only ever known Britain. This is their place of birth - their home.
Shame on the presenters for finding the recipe so amusing, and giving it air time. Richard,Cheshire
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Every time I look through the latest postings it strikes me just how obvious it is that almost all grey squirrel supporters, such as jeapster and Dr Taylor, appear to know precious little of countryside and ecological matters. By contrast the vast majority of pro-grey cullers seem to be much better informed and well-researched.
Mick even thinks that the American red squirrel is the same species as ours. What utter nonsense!
I wonder if the grey supporters fall largely into the "townie" category. I have two homes, one in suburbia and one very rural, and from my experience I strongly suspect that this is so! It would explain why townies have no opinion on the slaughter of American mink for example since they do not see them , whereas they will undoubtedly see greys.
As I have already said in a previous post - ignorance, hypocrisy and prejudice!
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After watching last weeks Autumnwatch and seeing the 'red squirrel debate' adressed on the programme i feel so strongly on this issue i felt i really had to comment.
I am a very passionate naturalist and am a big fan of the programme and have a large amount of respect for the presenters. However the views chris expressed on grey squirrels i found very poor and slightly ill-informed.
Just because Grey Squirrels have been in the country for 120 odd years it does not make them a native species, the notion of 'native' is a very wooly one. Although Greys may not impact on the red population down in southern britian (where i live i fact) it doesnt mean they live in harmony with our ecosystem.
Greys have been proven to have a devistating effect on our songbird populations and also on forestry. Recent research also suggests that they are having an effect on our dormouse population, something which was not mentioned by the programme.
I have always loved all wildlife and consider myself to have a very good knowledge of it and, having worked in practical conservation feel well informed on the current issues.
I am currently writing a piece of research for my university thesis on the effects of Grey Squirrel numbers on songbird population density. I also do a lot of shooting and will continue to cull greys where I live (in the South!) because of the environmental benefits it has, i fact i have an enormous issue with other shooters who shoot without knowing the reason why they are doing it. I agree that Grey Squirrels are an adorable animal, however they are not native here and having disastarous impact on our ecosystems.
I also think that things such as recipes for Grey Squirrel are a great idea and is something that a large amounts of chefs/resterauts are cottoning on to and utilizing this resource.
I also find it almost laughable that so many people will opose these views, however how many people who disagree with the cull of Grey Squirrels also opposed the eradication of Coypu in the Norfolk Broads 20 years ago?? very few i should imagine!
The efforts on culling greys should be concentrated even higher in areas of the Grey/Red conflict such as the Lake District (where in fact i was last week and was shocked at seeing Greys around Windemere where 20 years ago i only ever saw Reds!)
If you really do love nature and our Native environment/species and know much about them, the Grey Squirrel, amongst others, is a species which must be combatted using pratical conservation methods and erradicated
This is not a personal dig at Autumnwatch, which i think is a superb programme.
many thanks
A very concerned university student.
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Well said Samuel Jones.
I am also very concerned about the effects of greys on the wider environment which, as you rightly say, is seldom mentioned. How much proven, scientific evidence there is to support the theory that greys affect our songbird populations, and other wildlife such as dormice, both directly by predation, and indirectly by woodland degradation I am not sure but in any case the grey supporters would claim it to be "flawed" as they always do. I do know, however, that the anecdotal evidence is overwhelming and people who disagree simply cannot be spending much time observing the countryside, or as Mr Packham, they are unconcerned by the extinction of a much-loved and endearing species.
I have often scoured the internet for just one article written by a respected authority that lists the benefits that greys have brought to our ecology. I haven't found one yet! But I can find literally hundreds that find greys to be anything from a "nuisance" to an "ecological disaster" and everything inbetween!
Unfortunately difficult decisions occasionally have to be taken for the greater good, a good that cannot be seen by the short-sighted!
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I agree we should not cull grey squirrels ad lib we should be doing everything we can to protect our national red squirrels and if that means we have to do thing we do not like doing then so be it nomatter what. This might seem drastic but if it saves the red squirrel then we have to do it.
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I think the opinion of others gives a fair reflection of the state of the human condition.
To destroy an introduced species because it conflicts with the indigenous? Hmmm. Would you have condoned the 'culling' of modern man as he populated neanderthal Europe? Or perhaps the killing of all immigrants to America? Didn't they spread diseases to which the local populations had no immunity?
Surly the man made concept of 'conservation' requires a degree of humanity to succeed? This whole affair is therefore ill conceived, regardless of it's ''good'' intentions.
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...On the subject of conservation in general. It seems the current consensus is to pick a moment in time where the ideal exists and then try to conserve it. This is idiotic and counter Evolutionary. Everyone has their own view of when that moment should be.
A better understanding of the concept is to create an environment where the natural state is allowed to evolve without human intervention and we ''conserve'' the ability of nature to do that. The Grey squirrel's are here because of human lack of foresight. In destroying them, we perpetuate the misunderstanding of what true conservation is.
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Grey squirrels are delightful and very much part of the scene in the UK. Trapping and killing is not a policy that should be endorsed or encouraged, in fact it should be illegal. Killing one species to enable another to survive is not acceptable and is confusing conservation with manipulation.
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I believe the res squirrel should be saved and the grey should be sent back to America, or killed off.
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Dom, what a load of holier-than-thou twaddle1! I strongly suspect that you have absolutely no direct involvement with conservation!
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The exact same comment above also applies to Millie!
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Good evening
I believe the grey squirrel should only be controlled as a pest when it comes in conflict with red squirrel populations. The grey squirrel is a part of our fauna. Widescale extermination is simply too impracticable and senseless.
Out of the techniques suggested for control; I hope putting out food laced with drugs for sterilisation never goes to the trial stage. Far too haphazard.
If Grey Squirrels are causing untold damage to the quality of trees through ring barking then there is grounds for pest control here. However it should only be where the plantation is harvested for timber; where there's a need for many tall, straight trunks.
When they're living in high densities Grey Squirrels are a factor in the decline of woodland birds. Along with other factors such as: lack of suitable nesting sites, general habitat fragmentation, lack of chick food, cats.
Yes they're a predator we introduced but all out war everywhere is not the solution!
Good night!
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More illogical twaddle from Percy Veer!
So we control greys only where we harvest timber and need tall, straight trunks! Sod the wildlife as long as we get our tall, straight tunks!
Mr Veer says that where high densities of greys occur they are a factor in woodland bird declines. In suitable habitat greys always live at high densities - in actual fact 6 or 7 times greater than the density at which reds can live. Greys are about one third heavier so that is roughly ten times more grey squirrel than red in a given area.
The lack of suitable nest sites and food for chicks can also be attributed to general habitat degradation, in which grey squirrels play a huge part - a ten times greater part than we could attribute to reds in that same given area. So which are more important - grey squirrels or our native woodland birds? One day that may well be the choice it comes down to!
As for cats, yes, I am sure that they can be a problem in some areas. In my opinion cats should be neutered by law to prevent the establishment of feral populations, and a license required to breed them. That seems quite sensible and reasonable to me!
Cars kill far more birds than cats but I don't hear anybody mentioning that!
We all like cars but some people don't like cats, yet they like grey squirrels!!
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I agree that grey squirrels are very interesting animals to watch and they are quite cute, but they are a generalist and aggressive species that has an entirely negative impact on the biodiversity of Britain. We could easily introduce racoons and skunks from USA, or what about Japanese Macac monkeys, or maybe wolverines from Russia? All these species are attractive to look at and interesting to watch but they'd soon become a positive nuisance as they outcompeted our own established species and predated on less viracious ones. Grey squirrels are not in balance with their environment, they are in the middle of a mass invasion that will only lead to the demise of the Native red (and it is a native by the way, it came across the land bridge with Europe at the retreat of the ice sheets from the last ice age). If we put in the effort with shooting, trapping, dray-poking and poisoning then we might just save the red. Humans created the problem but that surely means that we have more of a responsibility to put it right before it is too late? Many of the entries to this blog demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the principles of conservation, ecology and the time scale involved in an alien species invasion. I don't condone deliberate cruelty to squirrels but humane culling of pest animals is as much a tool of the conservationist as clearing weeds or removing japanese knotweed. I took great delight in seeing grey squirrels in their native USA where they belong, but I don't want to see them here outcompeting our native red squirrel any more than I want all our Ancient woodland overgrown with Japanese knotweed.
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This not a simple right or wrong situation. The reds and the greys both have a right to exist regardless of their original native status or not. It is all too easy to begin valuing one form of life above another and demonising a simple animal strikes me as some kind of dysfunction. I am pleased to hear that thought is being put into humane ways to help bring things into balance rather then just knocking off the unwanted greys. It is all too easy to look at the problems (that we generally cause) as being remedied by further stupidity or violence. However I can't help feeling that such short sited knee jerk attitudes and actions are the very practices that have ruined our environment in the first place.
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With the amount of damage done by Grey Squirrels-raiding bird nest's,stripping bark and ,in general,completely the opposite of the Red's nature,I think that Grey's should be kept away from the area's where the Red Squirrel is thriving by culling,and keeping the barrier's of pine forest,and gradually extending pine tree barrier's southward.It will,over time, keep Grey Squirrel's back to a less destructive little devil - but it should have been done years ago.I think it was sixpence a tail.
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Re # 412
OuzelBird
You appear to have taken some of my comments completely out of context. I did not say we should only control squirrels where timber is harvested. 'Tall, straight trunks' are what many foresters are after. I don't work in forestry or silviculture. Its not something I neccessary agree with but its what they do. However, I don't agree with the term: 'loss of amenity value' which is put out by the Forestry Commission when describing squirrel damage. It suggests that the trees are somehow 'messy'. Anyway, I digress.
I stand corrected on: "high population densities of greys occur in suitable habitat." I still believe they're one of many reasons and not the prime reason for the decline in woodland bird species.
From previous postings OuzelBird, it would appear you understand the complexities of ecology. What you say makes sense, you're just more forthright!.
I just see complete eradication throughout the British Isles unattainable.
I suppose I'm occupying the middle ground here - neither calling for an all out cull or believing they should be left alone completely.
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Why do people keep demonising the greys? Red squirrels are also capable of taking birds eggs and stripping bark from trees. They used to be culled in forestry plantations.
What needs to be considered is,
Can the greys be completely removed from the UK? Probably not.
Is it economic to try? probably not.
Is it economic to control their numbers in plantations? Possibly.
Can greys be prevented from ousting the reds from Scotland? Possibly not.
It seems to that maintaining refuges like Anglesey, Ramsey island, etc is going to be the only economic and indeed viable proposition. The rest of us will have to learn to love the greys.
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To describe the culling of the non-native grey squirrels as racism is ridiculous, racism is about hatred and anger for a fellow being and this is not what this situation has arisen. The management of these animals in their habitats is not about grey V red in a cute contest but about the need for them to be controlled in some manner. Yes humans introduced but no we should not allow that to be a reason to let it be, this is precisely why we should do something to try and right the consequences of our actions. Animals cannot maintain the ecological balance themselves, they do not realise their dominance over one another, unlike actions of human racism, and the red squirrels need to be helped to maintain their current numbers else surely numbers will only continue to decrease.
As it was pointed out on the show we should concentrate these efforts in areas where territory is battled for else grey squirrels are going to push red squirrels further and further north and into UK extinction.
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