Briatore bows out in unsavoury style
Flavio Briatore's departure from his position as the boss of the Renault team in the wake of the Singapore race-fixing scandal robs Formula 1 of one of its most flamboyant and controversial characters.
The 59-year-old Italian, who has cultivated an image as a jet-setting playboy businessman, left his position as team principal after Renault decided not to contest charges that they had asked their driver Nelson Piquet Jr to deliberately crash in last year's Singapore Grand Prix to aid team-mate Fernando Alonso's chances of winning the race.
The allegation has rocked F1 to the core, the latest damaging episode for a sport that has recently suffered a number of cases that have brought its integrity into question.
There was the 'spy scandal' of 2007, when McLaren were found to illegally have possession of confidential technical information about the car of rivals Ferrari. McLaren were fined $100m (then £49m) and thrown out of the constructors' championship for that.
Shortly afterwards, Renault themselves escaped punishment after being found guilty of a similar charge.
Since then there has been 'lie-gate', when Lewis Hamilton, the world champion, was found to have misled stewards over his actions in this year's Australian Grand Prix, and numerous rows over rules and politics.
Earlier this year, F1 was in danger of being torn apart when a group of eight teams threatened to break away and set up a rival championship.
This one trumps the lot, though.
Briatore formed a close relationship with F1 impresario Bernie Ecclestone
Some people inside F1 have attempted to play it down, suggesting that teams are always looking for the 'unfair advantage' in their attempt to win, and that it should just be accepted as part of the sport.
But F1 has long been notorious for its skewed sense of morality, and it appears that may be what has led to this latest scandal. For that is exactly what it is.
The attempt to gain an unfair advantage is only one aspect of what is so wrong about what appears to have happened in Singapore last September.
In essence, what we are talking about here - if they are found guilty at Monday's hearing of the FIA's world motorsport council - is a team that was prepared to put at risk their driver's safety - and that of his competitors, marshals and the spectators at the race - in an attempt to engineer a better result for another driver.
It smacks of desperation, which is odd because Alonso, at least, was competitive in Singapore that weekend. Renault had been having a dreadful year, but changes to their car had made it a front-runner by that late stage of the season, and he was down in 15th on the grid only because of a mechanical problem in qualifying. He went on to win the following race in Japan with a quite brilliant drive.
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Whatever sparked the decision for Piquet to crash on purpose in order to engineer a safety car period that would benefit Alonso - and who knows whether the truth will ever come out - two of F1's most prominent and brilliant figures have lost their jobs over it. Engineer and strategist Pat Symonds has also been forced out of Renault along with Briatore.
As it happens, Briatore's downfall may not be entirely unconnected with the political battles that have scarred much of this season. Certainly most people within F1 believe the one has come out of the other.
The Formula 1 Teams' Association (Fota) ultimately won its battle with Max Mosley, president of governing body the FIA, over the future direction of F1. But Mosley, forced to agree that he would not run again for president in October's elections in order to get Fota back on board, has never been one to take defeat lightly.
There are plenty of people in F1 who believe he has taken his opportunity to exact revenge for his defeat. After all, Briatore was one of the hawks in that battle - to the point that Mosley was moved to describe him as a "loony".
Briatore's business career first took off when he established Benetton in North America in the 1980s - a move which made him a very rich man. His first involvement in F1 came in 1988, when he was employed to run the commercial side of the company's racing team, quickly being promoted to team boss.
It was there that he first met Symonds.
Along with the brilliant technical director Ross Brawn, the designer Rory Byrne and the hard-nosed manager Tom Walkinshaw, Briatore set about turning the team into a major contender for wins and championships.
Briatore's genius as a team boss was his ability to realise his limitations - he understood nothing of the technical or strategic side of F1 and didn't want to - and instead focus on the commercial side of the sport.
In that sense, his presence in the sport for the last 20 years has been a valuable one. He constantly reminded his fellow team owners that F1's success - and their bank accounts - depended on the fans, not on obscure engineering excellence.
"Every meeting I go to," he would say, "people are talking about pistons and suspension. Nobody goes to a race to see that kind of thing. People come to see [Michael] Schumacher and [Ayrton] Senna racing each other."
Ironically, Mosley himself would use similar sentiments when railing against what he perceived as the short-sightedness of the teams this year.
In other ways, though, many will take a more equivocal view of Briatore's involvement in F1.
His ruthlessness was in evidence when he stole Schumacher from under Eddie Jordan's nose in 1991 and parachuted the German into one of Benetton's cars.
And the mystery surrounding his origins was heightened when a bomb went off outside his London home in 1993, something which has never been satisfactorily explained.
With Schumacher at the wheel, Benetton finally achieved their first world title in 1994, but it was a triumph overshadowed by a year of quite extraordinary controversy.
Benetton were accused of running illegal traction control, but got away with it. The FIA found the device in the Benetton cars but could not prove it had been used in races.
There were also rows over the team's official fuel rig, which had been tampered with - Walkinshaw lost his job as a result - while Schumacher was excluded from a total of four races for various transgressions by either him or the team.
After winning another world title in 1995, Schumacher left, taking Brawn and Byrne with him to Ferrari, after which Benetton entered a slow cycle of decline. Briatore was eventually replaced as boss by David Richards.
By this time, Briatore's keen eye for F1's commercial value, allied to his maverick approach, had led to a close friendship with the sport's tsar, Bernie Ecclestone. They both have a stake in Queen's Park Rangers, a club in the English Football League.
Briatore took something of a back seat for a while, running Renault's customer engine supply business for a couple of years. But a string of high-profile liaisons with supermodels, among them Naomi Campbell and Heidi Klum, kept him in the public eye and enhanced his glamorous image. He has also established his own 'Billionaire' clothing brand and set up a nightclub in Sardinia, a restaurant in London, a beach club in Tuscany and a holiday resort in Kenya.
Then, when Renault bought the Benetton team in 2000, the French automotive giant re-installed him as boss and he began turning the team around again.
Just as he had done the first time, he built it around an outstanding young driver, Alonso, who had impressed Briatore with his performances in the Formula 3000 feeder series.
The Spaniard became the youngest race-winner in F1 history in 2003 - a status he lost to the German Sebastian Vettel last year - and, by 2005, was in a position to challenge for the world title. Alonso and Renault delivered in style, clinching it with two races still to go.
They followed that up with an even more impressive victory in 2006, keeping their nerve and beating Schumacher and Ferrari in a straight fight.
Alonso then left for an ill-fated year at McLaren before returning after falling out with McLaren chief Ron Dennis. But not even Alonso's return could arrest Renault's decline.
All year there has been speculation - fuelled by Mosley, who is uncomfortable about the power wielded by the manufacturers - that Renault would quit F1 at the end of this season as a result of their lack of success and declining road-car sales.
Briatore has always shrugged those allegations off, but this latest development can surely only increase the chances of Renault not being on the grid next season. On the other hand, Renault's decision to jettison Briatore and Symonds could be seen as a signal that they wish to carry on.
By the end of the year, it may not be just Briatore and Symonds who have left F1 in the wake of this latest unsavoury turn of events.
The love affair has blown hot and cold, but Formula One has had me in its spell for most of my life. After 16 years covering the sport, in which I have reported from more than 100 Grands Prix, I am as thrilled by its heights, fascinated by its complexities and exasperated by its idiosyncrasies as ever. I hope there will be plenty of all of them to share with you now F1 is back on the BBC. You can also follow me on
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~18~RS~)
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I don't think it matters that Renault have ditched Symonds and Briatore, the FIA still need to come down on them like a ton of carbon fibre shards. Where this differs from "Spygate" and the Hamilton incident in Melbourne this year, is that, as Andrew says, the safety of spectators, marshals (who give their time free to risk their lives for the safety of all involved) and all the drivers was at stake. It would amaze drivers of 30 years ago to hear of drivers crashing on purpose, given the extraordinary risks involved back then, and that Renault took everyone's safety so horrifically for granted is absolutely disgusting.
They should be at least thrown out of this year's championships (without being allowed to compete in the last rounds), and stripped of the Singapore victory, whether Alonso was complicit or not (and I suspect he was not). The FIA need to show that safety is not something to be taken so lightly.
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Don't argue with me: You slag off Rooney and slate F1 yet I you are commenting on a F1 story and I bet you have read the Rooney story already! lol
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This must surely mean that Alonso is a definite for Ferrari and makes yesterdays news re the sold BMW team as the 14th and first reserve team in the event of a withdrawal even more intriguing.
Renault's main sponsors ING bank have had their difficulties as well.
Anyone want to wager that Renault will announce a pull out of F1 during or after next weeks meeting? This would allow the Corporates to disassociate themselves from Briatore and the curent team management.
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If Alonso is stripped off the Singapore victory, it would promote Nico Rosberg to 1st place and therefore his first Formula 1 victory. I'm pretty sure Nico would want to win a race like that, and therefore I think stripping Renault of the victory wouldn't be an effective punishment.
It's sort of like when Fisichella was retrospectively awarded the Brazilian Grand Prix in 2003 or so - It takes away the magic, as he didn't get to be on the top step of the podium.
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I'm not watching this nonsense anymore - 30 years fan, over and out.
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My above post was meant to say "would not want".
The most logical punishment would be to throw the team out of both the 2008 and 2009 championships, also handing them a suspension for a number of races. A large fine (and repayment of any prize money) would also be given.
The problem now is that other teams could quite logically look to sue Renault for all kinds of random fees, for example teams that lost constructors money as a result of Renault's extra ten points. Williams could sue them also for depriving Rosberg of a first victory, and thus the exposure that would have brought the team.
Ultimately, with all of this, I fail to see a way for Renault to continue in F1. It seems likely that BMW Sauber will be taking their place in 2010.
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The FIA new Briatore And Pat would stand down. They're going to ban Renault from F1. That is why they're have accepted Lotus for 2010 in place of Renault.
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The drivers have it and the teams have it, to the core, the "must-win at any-cost" attitude.
It doesn't surprise me in fact I have to say that this is what makes F1 so exciting. The glitz, glamour, subterfuge and skullduggery which always seems to lurk below the surface of the teams and the drivers like Hamilton who are on the ragged-edge race after race.
That's not an excuse though. As this piece points out there were serious implications for not only the driver's safety but the marshalls and the public too.
The FIA need to come down on Renault hard. As much as the main protaganists may have gone it's a team sport so the team must pay the price.
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I don't know much about Briatore since I seriously started to follow F1 2 years ago. But when Nelsinho was sacked, he said that Briatore was his 'executioner'. It must've summed up his personality in Renault, and that he has ended up killing himself in F1 for being so opportunistic and despicable.
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@10, Esteffect
I cannot see how Alonso can be stripped of his Singapore win: he crossed the line first, by obeying the rules and regulations.
As to the comparison with Fisichella's win, that arose because the Brazilian organisers didn't understand the rules they were supposed to administer.
A better comparison would have been with Barrichello's pulling over to let Michael Schumacher win - i.e. the TEAM deciding to favour one driver at the expense of the other.
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Given his utter lack of talent (at F1 level), I am surprised that Briatore trusted Piquet to manage to crash at the right time and place.
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We all know that F1 is a dangerous sport, it could be argued that the drivers, marshalls and anyone else who is around the track are risking their lives every race. I believe that they choose to do so on the understanding that the risks are minimised as far as possible but there are no guarantees. Asking a driver to crash on purpose creates unnecessary and uncontrollable risk. For anyone involved to think that this is acceptable is incredible in the truest sense of the word.
Whatever happens next, F1 is the loser.
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Shocking. Had to try and explain to my son and three year old F1 fan what cheating is. Personally I will miss Flavio's personality and showmanship. And if Renault go - we will miss them even more.
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We dont need this kind of behaviour in F1. Sure it says on the ticket "Motor racing is Dangerous" but for heavens sake It certsainly doesnt say Racing teams will put your life in danger deliberately.
Make no mistake that is what the culprits at Renault have done and that is why they should be banned from all forms of motorsport for life. Anything less is an insult to the racing fans upon whom F1 depends for its survival.
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If Alonso is stripped of the win and the victory given to Rosberg, all the other points will need to be re-allocated. Would that affect the 2008 title battle between Hamilton and Massa?
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Rosberg wouldn't have been second without Pique's crash so he acctually did Williams & Nico a favour
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In reply to my own question (see 21) the answer is NO! Hamilton would be promoted from 3rd to 2nd, so would get an extra 2 points, but Massa would still be only 12th
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Given the penalty imposed on McLaren the penalty on Renault needs to be so much greater. They actively cheated in a race and risked injury to a driver and potentially others.
If Piquet was found to have deliberately crashed on his own initiative he would have been punished (as was Schumacher). But this was done on team instructions! Briatore, Symmonds and Piquet should never be allowed into FIA motorsport again and Renault should have a massive fine.
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I beleive the resignations of Briatore and Symonds should be an end to the matter.
The difference with the McLaren SpyGate affair is tha tno one accepted responsibility. No one stood up and said "yes we were to blame". In essence, this is what Briatore and Symonds have done. Why shoudl the team and its employees suffer for the lack of judgement of two individuals?
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I can believe this of Briatore but that Pat Symonds should be so involved surprises me. I always had him the the group of people in F1 with sporting integrity along with the likes of Adrian Newey and Patrick Head
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If Renault are guilty, then it doesn't matter who has been sacked, the company is responsible for the action of its [then] employees. Guilty means sanctions and if F1 back away from sanctions because two people were fired, then F1 don't deserve any supporters. If Renault are held guilty and not fined of thrown out, then F1 needs to repay the fines taken from McLaren in 2007 over a far lesser offence. The fact that Renault appear to have put the life of a driver at risk, plus the lives of other drivers, marshalls and spectators for the sake of 10 points is disgusting and they deserve, if proven, to be removed from F1 for the safety of everyone in the sport.
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From Flavio Briatore's own website on the Singapore GP victory last year...
"This is an amazing victory for Renault and for Fernando. Since Friday we knew that the car was very competitive and we were very disappointed at the end of qualifying. Today the car was extremely quick, stronger than the Ferrari and McLaren, and although we had some luck when the safety car came out, we deserved this victory. It’s a very important result for Renault after two difficult seasons and helps us prepare for 2009 in the best way possible."
So they were in trouble when this happened and it got them out of it...
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Anyone else think that Renault might be expelled from F1 and, surprise surprise, a space opens up for BMW Sauber (or whatever they will be called) in next year's championship - just a day after the FIA was heaping praise upon the professionalism of the Swiss team.
Surely the FIA should appreciate, if not condone, Renault's professional foul..?
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@ 11; "I'm not watching this nonsense anymore - 30 years fan, over and out."...yet another sadly pessimistic comment from a supposed "fan". And others too, and yes indeed, this is a downer of an episode that has cropped up. It always seems to be centred around Ferrari, McLaren and Renault - these three teams are constantly cooking up the scandals these days.
To me, the exit of Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds confirms that, as much as I don't want it to be true, they DID indeed ask Piquet to crash. I am shocked at the fact Symonds was part of this decision, as he is a very talented man, to whom I have always given huge respect.
As for Briatore, well, I'm just not surprised. He comes out with all sorts of shocking comments over the years, and I wouldn't put asking his own driver to crash past him.
What is a massive shame is that Briatore was one of the key motivators behind the ridiculous breakaway series, for want of "good racing"...It is a cruel irony that the man himself could have damaged the sport's reputation yet more.
But for goodness sake, going back to my first point regarding comment 11 and such like - hasn't this sort of riff-raff become the norm in sport as a whole?? It isn't the end of the world guys! Chin up!
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I don't know why so many people are being so generous with Nelsinho.
Briatore and/or Symonds might have told him to crash, but he has a brain in his head.
The old "I was only following orders" ploy is never an acceptable defence.
The Brazilian clearly cared more about his F1 career [at Renault] than about the safety of other drivers, marshals and spectators.
The Singaporean authorities should be considering legal action in light of what PIQUET did, whatever his motives!
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The average episode of Wacky Races is more plausible than F1 at the moment.
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You may not like Moseley, and I don't, but you have to admire what he has acheived this year.
A more affordable F1
Four new teams in F1
A weakening of the car manufacturers influence on F1.
My personal belief is that Moseley is exactly what he has been accused of being but he is wiley enough to avoid anyone being able to prove it.
A very clever and a very shrewd man.
He may have been forced out of the top FIA job for the future but anyone who thinks he lost the fight with FOTA needs to think again.
This affair with Renault is a bonus that he might not have expected in his battle to loosten the grip of the car manufacturers but he doesn't miss an opportunity or run from a fight.
I look forward to the FIA Verdict and its outcome early next week.
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F1 is off my TV for me this year and maybe even next year too. I am totally sick and dismayed with the lying and fixing and whilst Briatore may be a super-celeb with a beautiful wife, it's clear that he's just taking us (the public) as idiots.
I normally visit the Monaco and Barcelona races every year, but with all the fixing in the sport, it's time I took my money elsewhere until they clean up their act. And as for Briatore, look at the mess he's created at QPR as well.
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i find this whole saga shocking tbh theres been so much money invested into safety over the years that teams like renault can now try and make someone crash on purpose, what if Piquet were too have died how would have flavio have felt then?? tbh its nearly attempted murder but it also shows the pressure piquet must have been under if they asked him just to do that just for alonso
i dont believe alonso is totally innocent in this as someone said earlier he came in 2 laps earlier with the perfect amount of fuel on board which i dont find a coincedience, i feel the only justifable ban would be to ban renault from this years racing or chuck them out completely for BMW if renault want to continue
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The problem is you have to have to be driven by such a desire and belief to win in order to win that the boundaries between right and wrong get blurred. These guys have such a mentallity that they will throw their toys out the pram on occasions - thats life - a punishment comes and then we move on.
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This is a real shame. Reading the full radio transcript, I can guess that this idea must have been surfaced before the race, but surely couldn't be a plan by Briatore/Pat. This decision from Renault looks to be influenced heavily by circumstances and what you can/cannot prove rather than what is true or lie.
F1 is losing its key personnel recently and it surely isn't good for the sport. One thing for sure, This also cements that there is no future for Piquet(s) in F1 anymore.
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Fae Farfar -
So your summary of this is as follows;
1) Lewis Hamilton should be banned for life from all forms of motorsport.
2) Max Moseley is his fathers son.
3) The FIA should be able to take a joke.
Should you have any fresh insight on this matter, please do share - it's brightened my afternoon no end.
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And on Nelson P,
1) He tainted the last year championship
2) He put a lot of people lives in danger
3) He lied the whole of last year and half of this year as the crash was legit.
4) And the moment he lost the job, he showcased his true colors
All for what? Thats a very bad & Dangerous attitude and he isn't a quick driver anyway!
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Throwing Renault out is not the answer, especially if they are going to leave anyway.
In this corrupt world of motorsport I would not be suprised if Renault had not 'induced' the two to leave in order to keep the Renault name squeaky clean.
The penalty should be at least equal to the one dished out to MaClaren. If they are not hit hard in the pocket and then leave F1 anyway they will have basically avoided any penalty and kept a more or less untarnished image by virtue of having two fall guys.
As for Alonso I can't really believe he had no knowledge of this. He's also proved his worth as a toe rag in the MaClaren saga, only speaking up when he could'nt have his own way as number 1 driver.
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Fernando Alonso is becoming accident prone. At Mclaren he blew the whistle on the Ferrari spying scandal and McLaren were lucky to avoid being thrown out of F1. He moves to Renault and now they are facing being thrown out too. It can't happen three times... can it?????
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Glad to see the back of Briatore.
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We don't have the full evidence in the public domain, but I very much doubt Piquet would have come out with something like this if it wasn't true. The telemetry from the race showed that Piquet was accelerating right up to impact, barring a brief lift (which was probably the instinct to slam the brakes on before he realised he had to keep spinning the rear wheels). That, to me, shows that the crash was intended. There must be some other evidence behind the scenes that shows guilt on the part of Briatore/Symonds.
Whatever the outcome, is it right to punish Renault, if it was only Briatore, Symonds and Piquet complicit in this scam? Piquet will never race in F1 again, and Briatore and Symonds just ended their racing careers also. Is it right to punish the unknowing team mechanics, race engineers, and Fernando Alonso? It will be interesting to see how the FIA comes out of this one.
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Does this mean that Renault will be ceasing their legal action against the Piquet's?
As for whether Briatore and Symonds' resignation saves Renault from punishment I guess will come down to if the FIA are satisfied that they are the only 2 personnel (Piquet aside) who had anything to do with it.
Either way F1 has been anything but dull this year
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I find this incredibly difficult to believe. Piquet is saying his team asked him to risk his life in order to help Alonso win a race? And, Yes, deliberately crashing a formula one car is a risk to life, I don't care what anyone says.
I think Piquet is just bitter because he didn't make the grade.
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@ 11; "I'm not watching this nonsense anymore - 30 years fan, over and out."...yet another sadly pessimistic comment from a supposed "fan". And others too, and yes indeed, this is a downer of an episode that has cropped up. It always seems to be centred around Ferrari, McLaren and Renault - these three teams are constantly cooking up the scandals these days.
To me, the exit of Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds confirms that, as much as I don't want it to be true, they DID indeed ask Piquet to crash. I am shocked at the fact Symonds was part of this decision, as he is a very talented man, to whom I have always given huge respect.
As for Briatore, well, I'm just not surprised. He comes out with all sorts of shocking comments over the years, and I wouldn't put asking his own driver to crash past him.
What is a massive shame is that Briatore was one of the key motivators behind the ridiculous breakaway series, for want of "good racing"...It is a cruel irony that the man himself could have damaged the sport's reputation yet more.
But for goodness sake, going back to my first point regarding comment 11 and such like - hasn't this sort of riff-raff become the norm in sport as a whole?? It isn't the end of the world guys! Chin up!
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What are you talking about?
(yet another sadly pessimistic comment from a supposed "fan")
You are blinkered, and naive, some people don't want the sport they watch to be constantly exposed with these acts of cheating.
It takes away so much out of the sport.
If you are happy to keep on watching regardless of whatever happens then good for you. (I also will be watching)
But to dismiss that guys comments like your some big man and he is not is just ignorant beyond belief.
For me F1 is on the verge of disaster, teams coming and going has always been the way of F1 and even through the Shuey years people were watching avidly, now the sport is becoming a joke and people are turning off.
Chin up?
Yeah only if like you, people want to sit back and accept any old rubbish....
Your on your own there mate................
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Renaults pleas for clemency, now that the Flavio & Pat have left, should fall on deaf ears. The seriousness of this incident was demonstrated at brands hatch, so tragically, & hungary this year respectively.
To deliberatly cause an accident on a street circuit is beyond comprehension in this sport. The FIA should impose the harshest punishments possible, beyond anything ever seen before. 'Crashgate' is an entirely different kettle of fish to 'spygate' & i echoe the views of other bloggers here in saying so.
Renault should expect the expulsion of the team from F1 with immeadiate effect at the very least. Anything less and they have gotten off lightly.
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What's new here? Senna and Prost crashing into each other, Schumacher turning in on Jacques Villenueve and Damon too and Parking his car in the middle of the track at Monaco - wasn't that dangerous too?
F1 is more like a soap opera but seems to have lost the thread. At least Flav was right that people want to see racing and that is more and more rare as cars and tracks don't allow overtaking.
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Effectively Briatore's resignation is an admission of guilt, of which I am very surprised. Can one really imagine a team, telling it's driver to crash to help the other one. This is the lowest ebb in F1 I can remember.
This will drag on and possibly ruin this years championship with all sorts of gossip and press. Sad.
Briatore should never come near a F1 car again if Piquet's allegations are true. And Renault can expect a heavy fine. I mean HEAVY! They might not race next year.
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The resignation of the two gentlemen accused of orchestrating the alleged "crash-on-purpose" should not be allowed to get in the way of a free and full investigation into the events at the race in question. Only in that way will we have confidence that all those who are responsible have been held to account. Otherwise, those who are innocent may face suspicion for years to come.
Indeed, it is already beginning, with the question of what Alonso did or did not know about the conspiracy: I prefer to think that he knew nothing, but seeing some of the arguments above I realise that this may be wrong.
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As a previous post, I do think there is a sense of over reaction and quick finger pointing over this episode.
If the real protagonists of this ludicrous plot are found guilty for their actions then so be it, they should pay for the crime as for Renault yes there has to be a punishment but in reality it may have to be accepted that this incident was limited to possibly 3 people and accepted as such.
In regards to Piquet himself, words fail me! Here is a guy who has grown up in a racing enviroment with a triple WDC father and then he 'allegedly' dumps the car into the wall at high speed? I still find it hard to believe if you get to that level you do not dump a car into the wall...not for anyone, can you imagine Nigel Mansell carrying on like that, he would be telling Flav where to go and driving his socks off there after, Piquet has basically terminated his career in motor sport.
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McLaren caught with a Ferrari manual - $100M fine.
Renault caught in similar circumstances last year and let off.
Renault conspire for a driver to crash to deliver a win for their other driver... what are the chances it'll be a slight slap on the wrist and a 'don't do it again'?
What we need to know now is whether Alonso knew or not. Piquet had no future in F1 anyway, but if Alonso knew the plan then he is just as culpable.
Any punishment for Renault of less than exclusion from last year's championship and a fine of more than $100M would prove beyond all doubt that the FIA punishments are driven by personal vendetta above anything else.
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This one will be a real test for the FIA. McLaren we find an enormous sum of money for something which was really only perpetrated by one "rogue" employee and gained little or no real benefit from. Renault, on the other hand (if found guilty of course) have directly benefited from cheating and endagered the saftey of many.
The problem they now face is that if they fine Renault, it ought to be a minimum of $100M and surely such a sum would cause Renault to quit F1 at the end of the season. Also they should face disqualification from this year's championship at the very least.
So, what are the FIA likely to do? Meted out the requisite punishment or concoct something lesser that would ensure that Renault are racing next year? When teams pull out of F1 it is the back room staff that are hit the hardest, as very few of them will have large sums of money put by.
The most worrying thing for me about the whole episode (again, if proven) was the blatant disregard for anyone's safety. If Massa had been closer to the accident, he may well have come out of that corner and collided with Piquet, not to mention the dangerous mixture of crowds and flying debris.
In any normal walk of life, this could be seen as some kind of reckless endangerment that would almost certainly lead to a court case and possible imprisonment; so, if proven, those responsible should face the justice of the law courts, not only the FIA.
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Did Briatore or Symonds ask - or did either instruct - Piquet to crash? The distinction is important. I cannot imagine that the police and courts in Singapore would not be very interested in the implications. Given the potential for loss of life or serious injury surely a serious crime has been committed in their jurisdiction.
Do we or any other EU country have an extradition treaty with Singapore?
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First of all, Alonso has the defence of 'plausible deniability'. He's intelligent, so he must of had a hunch of what was going on. But because nobody at Renault told him about it, he can deny having any part in this scandal.
This move was probably done because Alonso was getting tired at Renault. They wanted to do 'anything' to prove they're competitive and keep him, and therefore they did do 'anything.
I may not be Alonso's biggest fan; all he ever does is whine, and i'm glad Hamilton destroyed him a couple seasons ago. But he is not a cheater, and it is constantly the people around him that are bringing him to these stupid scandals.
Briatore quickly plunged into the life of a playboy, and looks like he dragged Pat Symmonds with him. But nobody can deny what they've contributed to this sport. You deserve to hang your heads in shame, but nonetheless, thankyou for everything.
On a final note, lol at all the fans who are saying "i've been watching this sport for 7000 years, and i'm never watching it again". hahaha, you guys make me laugh so much. THis has been one of the most low-key scandals in F1 for the past couple years, and you've been through decades of cheating, trickery, and Michael Schumacher. Now this little thing happen (when it would have happend in a MUCH more sly way a long time ago, ya know with teamworking and all that), and you all go in a puff. Sorry that you're not going to be watching the greatest motorsport in the world anymore. Goodbye.
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Re: #48 Carlonso.
"attempted involuntary Manslaughter". I almost fell off my chair! That'll keep me chuckling most of the night.
I am about to attempt to involuntarily drive home. Wish me luck.
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I'm puzzled:
After the acrimonious split between Piquet & the team, specifically Briatore, surely it was always on the cards that a disgruntled driver was going to 'spill the beans' eventually?
If it's is true that the crash was premeditated (and we're not 100% sure yet), I would've thought that sacking a driver mid-season and expecting him to walk away smiling was very poor judgement on Briatore's part, especially with what Piquet knew. Strange . . . .
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Dear Lord_Lancaster
I've only been to the Monaco GP last year, and the British GP the year before and another back in 1991, and i've only watched almost every race since the age of 10 so yes, i'm no real fan and don't count, that's why i've taken the time to voice my heartfelt dispare. I like the racing, the engineering, the skill. Yes, i'll probably carry on watching (secretly) and i'll enjoy it all the more. I'm just fed up - OK.
"@ 11; "I'm not watching this nonsense anymore - 30 years fan, over and out."...yet another sadly pessimistic comment from a supposed "fan". And others too, and yes indeed, this is a downer of an episode that has cropped up. It always seems to be centred around Ferrari, McLaren and Renault - these three teams are constantly cooking up the scandals these days.
To me, the exit of Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds confirms that, as much as I don't want it to be true, they DID indeed ask Piquet to crash. I am shocked at the fact Symonds was part of this decision, as he is a very talented man, to whom I have always given huge respect.
As for Briatore, well, I'm just not surprised. He comes out with all sorts of shocking comments over the years, and I wouldn't put asking his own driver to crash past him.
What is a massive shame is that Briatore was one of the key motivators behind the ridiculous breakaway series, for want of "good racing"...It is a cruel irony that the man himself could have damaged the sport's reputation yet more.
But for goodness sake, going back to my first point regarding comment 11 and such like - hasn't this sort of riff-raff become the norm in sport
as a whole?? It isn't the end of the world guys! Chin up!"
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@ Carlonso:
I do not understand how someone can suggest that Pique should be tried for involuntary manslaughter. Firstly exactly what legal system would you bring a claim under? Secondly, under UK law you cannot be guilty of involuntary manslaughter (known as constructive manslaughter in the UK) without actually killing someone. Correct me if I am wrong but Piquet did not actually kill anyone. So in answer to your question no claim can be launched against Piquet. So please refrain from making sweeping statements about Piquet without having the legal knowledge to do so. Besides, even if he had killed someone, which he did not, it is very rare for juries to convict someone to manslaughter when the accident involves a car hence the introduction of the offence "death by dangerous driving".
I cannot see Renault being kicked out by the FIA. Renault's legal team will have been in contact with the FIA through various means and will have worked out that if Symmonds/Briatroe go then they will be safe. Kicking Renault out is just not a realistic option for the FIA. In times of economic uncertainty it would do a huge amount of damage to the sport, to put 700 people out of work. We must also remember that the UK and French Governments will be lobbying the FIA not to kick Renault out. Equally we have to remember that the people who work at Renault are not guilty of the offence.
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I wouldnt be surprised to find out that Alonso knew something was going on, even if he didnt know exactly what.
Just listen to his reaction when interviewed by the BBC at the Italian Grand Prix, Monza. He is very, very, cagey about the whole thing.
Pat Symonds I am surprised at, Briatore not so much.
Piquet agreeing to crash is the worst of all .. I think as he ultimately was the one who could make the right choice, and on the day failed himself and jeopardised the integrity of F1.
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If Renault have the Singapore race win taken away from them, doesn't that make Massa World Champion for 2008? Something to contemplate, methinks.
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This latest scandal (sigh), only came out because of the sacking of Piquet Jr. If that had'nt have happened, then nobody would be none the wiser about it. So it makes you wonder, what else goes off that we would'nt get to hear about? What other skeletons are lurking in the closet? It's sad that I have to assume that there are some skeletons knocking about, but unfortunately thats modern F1 for you these days: Controversy and Skullduggery. It's what you come to expect from the sport nowadays and its a shame.
Have you ever wondered why F1 is never far from a scandal? They're almost coming off a conveyer belt and its getting monotonous. I dont watch F1 for this, I never have and never want to.
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how come the bbc always take the spaces out of my posts?
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And to think Briatore wanted to take over Bernie's role in F1. What a joke. I wouldn't trust him to honestly run a raffle!
I'm extremely happy this dishonest, cheating man is out. It's a shame the top dogs, the old men of F1 are proving to be so untrustworthy of late. Lets hope the new younger generation have higher moral standards in future.
Any fine Renault get I hope they chase Biatore in court to get it. It's not right that people can ruin businesses or race teams, jeapodising many others livelyhoods, and just get to walk away. Taking responsibility is one thing, but people like this, or dishonest company directors need to start paying for their crimes/dishonesty/bad decisions where it'll really hurt them – out of their own pocket. It's not on that the richer you are, the less likely you are to pay for crimes or dishonesty.
Piquet was asked to do something extremely dangerous, effectively putting other drivers lives at risk. No one should be allowed to walk away from this.
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@Team_Kermit - nope. Massa was out of the points in singapore, and Hamilton stands to gain 2 more points from being bumped up. If Renault were stripped of all results for that season then it would be interesting, as Massa would have enough retrospective points for the title. But I doubt that action will be taken, as it would be a horrible way for the title to change hands, especially after such a thrilling end to the season.
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heard on 5live earlier john watson stating that the piquet family do not come out of this smelling of roses. all very well but i cant remember a similar comment following alonso's alleged emails prior to the mclaren spygate fiasco breaking, and he was still a mclaren driver!
it would be most surprising to find out that alonso was totally ignorant of what was going on, i certainly hope these resignations will not dilute any investigations.
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Its interesting that both Briatore and Symonds were at Benetton in 1994 when Schumacher crashed into Damon Hill, ending the race for both of them and making Schummi champion. The German had gone off the track shortly before the incident and damaged his car, Hill tried to overtake the struggling Benetton and, had he finished the race in the points, would have won the world championship. Schumacher wasn't penalised for what was obviously a tactical crash and won the championship by one point. The theme of tactical crashes is nothing new.
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I suspect that when they have retired, certain F1 drivers will have colourful stories to tell about stalling cars as well.
Especially when they were on pole......
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Well I wonder what all those who castigated Piquet are saying now?
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I've read through the blog and the comments, and a lot of people are wondering about whether the results will be changed for the Singapore race, and whether Alonso was involved; and I don't think anyone has answered yet. Based on what I've read on other sites...
THE RESULTS WONT BE CHANGED. I think Mosley has already said that the results are set in stone. If Piquet had pointed out that the race had been rigged before the results in Brazil were finalised (in mid November last year) then the Singapore result could have been changed.
SUPPOSEDLY, THE 'EVIDENCE' SUGGESTS ALONSO WAS NOT INVOLVED. Although Alonso is in as much danger as the rest of Renault, apparently there's no suspicion of him being a part of the 'plot'. Some new evidence would have to come about for that to change.
After all this, I'd be amazed if Renault didn't leave the sport. Such a shame.
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Hmmm....FIA HQ, Paris. Renault HQ, Boulogne-Billancourt, a western suburb 5 miles from the centre of Paris.
I wonder what punishment will be meted out?
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Try this scneario:
Pat works out several stratergies for the race and the only one which secures victory is the Crash and Safety Car just before the other teams refuel. Other stratergies will bring about favourable results if they refuel on Lap 12.
Briatore makes the actual decission and gives the coded signal to his driver to have an "Accident" at this part of the track.
Pat came up with the strategie, Briatore instructed it and The driver complied.
The Driver would be at fault for "causing" an accident during a race (Breach of Regulations). Briatore would be at fault for instructing a breach of the regulations which are there for the safety of all concerned. But, Pat, could be given imunity because he was doing his job and providing the team with race stratergies.
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I thought better of Pat Symonds and am very disappointed with him. Regarding the other bloke...words fail me. To make a driver deliberately crash is beyond belief and put others at risk. Although unlikely, what would they have done if he or a marshall had died? I have no doubt that Alonso had no knowledge of this but he is vicariously liable and should be stripped of his race win which would have caused an interesting conundrum if Massa had been ahead of Hamilton in the race in terms of points and the championship. I am a huge fan of F1 and have been to many races this year and over the past years but the continuing controversies do nothing to further the image of the sport. I was in Italy last weekend and the subject of Renault's future was much talked about and i have no doubt that this will probably end their involvement in the sport.
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Prost into Senna, Suzuka 1989
Senna into Prost, Suzuka 1990
Senna into the wall, to get pole
I can't find a reference online to that but I just found this :
http://blogf1.co.uk/2008/06/21/bruno-senna-takes-sideways-pole-in-france/
Bruno Senna did the same trick last year!
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All those who say "I'm not watching F1 anymore because of this etc etc etc"
I would like to point out that very few professional sports are devoid of scandal;
How many football matches have we seen players cheat to earn penalties and get the other man sent off? And Horse Racing has seen it's own fair share of "fixing" allegations too. Doesn't stop fans or punters from turing up does it?
And every Tour de France / Olympic Games seems to be plagued by cyclists / athletes who have taken banned substances.
F1 is no different i'm afraid. As long as there's money involved, the rewards for cheating are immense.
Feel free to criticise me, I'll hold my hand up and admit I know very little about the above sports but WHAT I DO KNOW is I am aware of their scandals!
Not that i'm condoning Renault's behaviour (and they havn't been proved guilty yet either)...
I also think people are reading too much into what Alonso said at Monza. Look, he was under orders not to make any comments regarding the issue - of course he wasn't going to say "Yes, the team were cheating and i'm ashamed about it" nor was he going to say "Actually, yes I was involved too"!
And finally, Nelson Piquet certainly doesn't deserve to set foot in an F1 paddock again after this.
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REF 59 PorterRockwell.
Firstly I hope you got home safely without suffering too much jawache...
It's always good to try and see the funny side of this.
The way Kovalainen's been driving this season he should be done for murder...
However - my remarks are based primarily on the tragic death of Surtees Jnr. - a freak accident within a fast and dangerous sport.
Add that to what stupid Piquet did that was dangerous, irresponsible and DELIBERATE - The deliberate intent to crash is a cause for investigation. He could have injured or killed someone. And he'd know why. That's no laughing matter.
and REF 59 Poincianakings
In Singapore you get 10 years for spitting, so I'd set the trial there...
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Well Max, you nearly did it - but I guess two outta four ain't bad.
You got Ron & you got Flavio - that'll show those common FOTA people for standing up to you and taking the fans' side. Still, it'll make Jean's life a bit easier - won't it?
You're like an old cowboy, surrounded by the sheriff and his deputies. You know your time is up but you're darn-well gonna take as many of those guys with you as you can.
Now, you've got a month - what do you have planned for Luca & Jackie?
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I am sure that Renault will be keen to make a claim on Briatore's personal wealth for bringing their brand value and reputation into disrepute, while he was team principal. I feel Piquet is probably in the clear, but the nature of the skewed relationship between Piquet and the Renault team, as represented to him by Briatore, would certainly be of interest. Was a struggling, insecure Piquet truly in a position to make this episode public until now - or was his silence in effect coerced by a toxic relationship, as evidenced by Piquet being so put upon as to drive his car into a wall.
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Briatore was not just Piquets team boss, he was his manager too. Who knows how much bullying and pressure was brought to bear? Whilst no one could condone NP jnrs actions, he must have felt pretty desperate to do this.
Feel sorry for the team and hope they don't go. That said I hope that Alonsos part is meticulously investigated. He and Briatore were a good match. His potential move to Ferarri seems another fitting partnership!
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Piquet should rightly be damned for his actions. He has been naive and idiotic. In 2008 he was a young, impressionable driver, desperate to keep his place in the Renault team - desperate enough to follow orders to crash his car.
It is brave of him to ultimately blow the whistle on this, but he knew that his F1 career was effectively over anyway. Would he have done so if he still thought he had a chance of a drive in F1? Unlikely.
Briatore is a character no doubt, but you have to consider whether he has done more damage than good.
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If Kylie Minogue knows then sure as hell Fernando Alonso knows!
How much remains to be seen.
Poor lad. He's been behaving like an alter boy ever since he got his mitts burned by Ron and just as he's about to jump ship and straight into Ferrari this happens.
Kylie knows why Alonso's proposed moved to Ferrari has been delayed, but he's not telling, because it's really quite obvious - and it's having a knock on effect with the other drivers.
The FIA hearing will need to be conclusive and definitive.Given all the evidence to hand, it has to be clear that the three men are the only ones involved in this scandal.If not then this whole saga will drag,Alonso, Renault and F1 in the gutter.
As for Piquet - like Father like Son.
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Also, on the idea that this drives people away from watching the sport...to be honest, scandals just make me more intruiged, not less.
It might not be the right thing to say, but fudge it. SCANDALS IN F1 MAKE FOR GREAT ENTERTAINMENT, and result in more coverage for F1. No F1 commentator/critic would dare say this.
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Andrew,
Sounds almost as if you are lamenting the fact that Briatore/Symonds are gone and almost as if you're defending them.
In my opinion if they've gone it means there is enough evidence to suggest they are guilty and if so they have no place in the sport. Renault have done the right thing in washing their hands clean of them.
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"88. At 6:57pm on 16 Sep 2009, TheamazingMrWhite wrote:
Also, on the idea that this drives people away from watching the sport...to be honest, scandals just make me more intruiged, not less.
It might not be the right thing to say, but fudge it. SCANDALS IN F1 MAKE FOR GREAT ENTERTAINMENT, and result in more coverage for F1. No F1 commentator/critic would dare say this."
Yes but it's the wrong sort of coverage.
Proper motorsports fans want to hear of the racing and motorsport, not the political rubbish that is at the forefront of F1.
It's the "car crash" set that have made it this way unfortunately. Those among us who are proper motorsport fans would rather people like Flavio (and a few others) did not exist, certainly in F1 at least.
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What about those who placed bets on the race? Can they sue the guilty parties for lost profits? And/or betting agencies for having to have paid for those who placed bets on Alonso?
Anyway, Nelsinho should be punished too. Just because your boss tells you to do something, it shouldn't mean that you don't have to take responsibility for your actions. Certainly not when you do something so dangerous as crashing an F1 car on purpose.
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There are a lot of points to take from this but surely the biggest one is
HOW MUCH DID ALONSO KNOW?
The two biggest scandals in the (recent) history of F1 have been spy-gate with McLaren in 2007 and crash-gate with Renault in 2008. Who is the only person to have been at McLaren in 2007 and Renault in 2008?
Previous contributors mention Senna & Schumacher - they used their own cars as weapons.
McLaren's spy-gate only came out when Ron Dennis supposedly refused to be blackmailled by Alonso. If Alonso has the brass appendages to try that then what else is he prepared to do to win? Remember the backdrop to this. The first ever night race, the glamour of Singapore, massive publicity and prestige. Alonso going like the wind in practice and looking very good for pole before having mechanical problems and ending up 15th with a car that should have qualified 1st. A disillusioned number 1 driver looking enviously over at the red garage and a team that doesn't want him to leave them. The likelihood of zero points for either driver unless.......
12 months ago what odds could you have got on Ron and Flavio both being gone from F1 before Max? To borrow from a well know advertising slogan - You know when you've been Fernandoed.
And now we're told that the worst kept secret in F1 is Alonso to Ferrari. Dear Mr. Domenicali, is your granny still alive? If so then please keep her safe 'cos there's someone coming who'd sell her for tuppence to gain one extra place on the grid.
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I am saddened about Pat Symonds. I believed him to be a remarkable and true Brit, one of many Brits who totally enhance the world of F1. I am not so surprised about Flavio, guess you can call it a gut instinct!
What I would really like to know is the part Alonso took in this sad scenario. I will never believe he is innocent in this total fiasco. He dumped on McLaren instead of going to his team and stating what he had received by way of an e-mail. Now he is going to deny any knowledge of this latest scandal concerning Piquet Jnr. Come on. All Alonso wants is a Ferrari drive and it appears he will be party to any controversy that he will get him that seat and make him out to be the innocent driver. At least let's hope that Ferrari will NOT touch him. Please God Massa will be back next year and Kimi seems to be coming on in leaps and bounds. This cannot be compared with the McLaren incident in Melbourne. Endeavouring to be neutral, Lewis/McLaren were made a scapegoat, but then McLaren have been made a scapegoat for sometime.
If Flavio and Pat have resigned there must be some truth in what has been alleged. I thought Renault were suing Piquet for wrongful allegations and again I understood that one of the better broadsheets had "team radio" proof that Renault had given instructions for this incident to occur. Again I ask the question, is Alonso an innocent party in all this? What is the future for my beloved F1?
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It's cheating if the FIA decide so after the meeting next week, but I doubt anything will shock the business, sorry, sport. The two men will get a slap on the wrist, Piquet too I shouldn't wonder. What should happen is they all stand trial for conspiracy to cause an accident (if there is such a thing). As someone pointed out, cheating is almost an occupational habit in most sports. The tripping over the whie line thing in football to get the opposition sent off etc, should be met with the 'injured' prima donna being stretched off and taken to hospital (at the clubs expense) and have a proper medical examination (as clearly the team doctors are useless) and if found to be acting, the player should be banned the rest of the season and his wages given to charity. I wonder how many get broken legs then?
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87 - Kylie_Minogue_knows -
"As for Piquet - like Father like Son." Not in terms of talent! But both will be missed as little.
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It all seems to be falling apart at the seams, to many liars, to many rule changes, how can you have no refuelling? They’re taking away strategy, pit stops and tactics are all part of a race, it’s not just the driver, it’s the pit crew, and it’s the tacticians, its running light or heavy on fuel, its one or two pit stops? Leave the teams alone, give them a choice, otherwise it will be one car for all, same strategy and very very tiresome.
Come on Bernie, put your foot down!
Unhappy of Essex….
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The tone of Benson's blog is absurd at best.
Briatore steps down after implication in serious foul play that might have endangered human life and we are told 'the sport loses one of its most colourful characters'. It makes me sick you slimy man.
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hmmm - well this is interesting because I was on a website this morning (I thought The Daily Mail) and they had posted 12 or 13 pdf files - and of course I can't find that site now and/or they have taken the files down - the files showed all the background data - and if they were genuine, then Flav and Pat are in a heap of trouble, which is probably why they resigned or got fired by Renault.
From what I remember:
- transcript of Piquet Jr's interview + his written statement to the FIA
- transcript of Pat Symond's interview - which you can find on other sites now - I just checked
- all of the telemetry graphs that back up Piquet Jr's testimony - ie. he was ordered to crash at turn 17 - you can see where he keeps his foot on the accelerator because the wheel rpm's and engine rpm's stay high until the crash
- there is another file showing Alonso's telemetry data from the same corner in practice, where Alonso starts to lose control ie he is experiencing some rear wheel spin - you can see that he takes his foot off the accelerator momentarily, the wheel and engine rev's drop a bit, then he puts his foot back on the accelerator after the wheel gains traction - transcript of the interviewer asking Alonso for his interpretation of the telemetry data from turn 17 - the interviewer purposefully did NOT ask for Alonso's interpretation of Piquet Jr's telemetry data from this corner during Piquet Jr's crash
- transcript of Alonso's interview - he was totally unaware of the deal with Piquet Jr
- other data showing that one of the Renault engineers was reviewing the telemetry data and apparently asked Piquet Jr "WTF happened at Turn 17?" - its obvious from the telemetry that he kept his foot on the accelerator because you can clearly see the engine RPMs and wheel RPMs
- transcript of the communications between Piquet jr and the pit because he kept asking what lap he was on - remember he had to crash at a specific turn on a specific lap after Alonso was back on the track from refuelling
All in all, IF all the stuff I read was true, then its pretty tough to refute Piquet Jr's story - particularly the engine telemetry data and the radio transcripts from Piquet Jr and the pit wall. I am sure the FIA will post it AFTER the meeting on Monday.... I see on some sites the FIA are saying they are upset the data files were posted "on the internet" today......
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Surely the nadir for Formula 1.
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Yet another F1 drama and scandel,even tho Briatore and Symonds have jumped the sinking ship I believe many more people within that disgrace of a team knew much more, yes there will always be inocents that did no wrong, but this disgraceful act has tarnished this sport and has done untold damage, Renault should be banned from the sport forever, to show anymore teams that they will just not get away with a paltry fine and pay the ultimate price. And as for Alonso I also believe he knew every detail of this scam, and had much to gain so he too should be banned for life too !!!!!! and Piquet realy needs to grow up if he thinks everyone believe's that he was bullied into this crash,he knew what was right and wrong, and that should have been enough to say NO!!!!!
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So much for free speech. The BBC has yet again removed my comments.
Oh well here goes a third try...
72. At 5:59pm on 16 Sep 2009, o_ci2007 wrote:
Well I wonder what all those who castigated Piquet are saying now?"
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This does not absolve Piquet of his involvement. He has a case to answer still and this scandal would not have seen light if he had not been fired.
Good riddance Flavio.
There moderators is that any better or will you censor that for no reason as well?
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If this crash hadn't happened, Massa wouldn't have had his problem in the pits and could well of won the championship. I bet Alonso is happy with that outcome of all this.
Surely Renault will be disqualifed from that race now. Button was not only disqualifed but banned due to an issue with Sato's car a few years back so there is a precedent. If Alonso ends uo being an innocent victim in this (something we'll have an idea of next week) many people would regard that as poetic justice for his attempts to stitch up his former employers.
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I think it's very unlikely Alonso was told outright. Certainly Piquet's own engineers didn't know, and why on earth tell Alonso, he sure as hell wouldn't want to know!
Now whether they said to him - 'go light, because there may well be a safety car, and it's our only hope of wining'; or even, as above but adding 'it may even be for Nelson crashing again' ,with a tap of the nose as it was said - is another matter.
But if he had known, would he have said on camera to Flavio after the race that it was down to the safety car? No, he wouldn't. The strategy given to him was to hope for a SC, and it came off - he was just well pleased, he didn't know it was a fix. And no, I'm no Alonso fan.
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I agree with much of what has been said.... BUT I would certainly not be looking to Mr Ecclestone to put the sport in order, in my view his support of Briatore sums up Ecclestone.......The sport will better of without Briatore for sure, Just a shame that Ecclestone continues to ruin the sport to gain a greater sum of money, that he is not short of.
As for Piquet... not as talented as his father, but clearly the same attitude (the world always owned him a living)
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This whole afair is pretty amazing, I hadn't believed it true until the last few days. It did happen, absolutely shocking disregard for the sport and people on every level.
Now many have started mentioning Alonso, has he been interviewed? He's a smart guy, even he did suspect anything and did not advise the FIA does that not make him culpable too? He was quick enough to drop McLaren in the mire. I wonder if the hearing will shed any light on this, or perhaps Alonso is just too big a draw to allow him to get involved.
I hope he did not know, losing Pat is a shame and I would not like to see Renault go under either. Flavio? meh.
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Before this crash Ferraris we running away with the race and had the crash not happened then Massa would have been Champion. I know its a what if - but being a Ferrari fan - this coming out has upset me and others too. This should never be allowed to happen again.
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REF 103 and 104
Good points. Alonso really only needed to know the race strategy. He would have been told by Symmons to come in at a particular time, and why question one the the main master tacticians, especially after qualifying so low on the grid?
Alonso knows nothing.
I'm intrigued to see how he deals with the aftermath, however.
He has said absolutely nothing so far.
How would he feel to be cheated out of a brilliant race win?
If he is what I want to believe is a brilliant talent who has the responsibility of being a double-world champion, then he could come out trumps over this and exonerated - Poetic justice post Maclaren indeed.
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Is Briatore still Chairman of FOTA's Commercial Development?
Because Montezemolo's been very quiet on the subject, not unsurprisingly.
No wonder FOTA wanted their own little series, they could do what they want there, without the FIA insisting on fair play :)
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105. At 8:01pm on 16 Sep 2009, BaldFatBloke wrote:
BUT I would certainly not be looking to Mr Ecclestone to put the sport in order, in my view his support of Briatore sums up Ecclestone.......The sport will better of without Briatore for sure, Just a shame that Ecclestone continues to ruin the sport to gain a greater sum of money, that he is not short of.
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Couldn't agree more.
109. At 8:09pm on 16 Sep 2009, Czar-Orac wrote:
Is Briatore still Chairman of FOTA's Commercial Development?
Because Montezemolo's been very quiet on the subject, not unsurprisingly.
No wonder FOTA wanted their own little series, they could do what they want there, without the FIA insisting on fair play :)
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One would certainly hope that Flavio is no longer a part of FOTA, he isn't with any team.
And yes how dare the FIA insist on fair play...
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"By the end of the year, it may not be just Briatore and Symonds who have left F1 in the wake of this latest unsavoury scandal."
Bye bye Alonso!
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I am upset that is has happened but as soon as I heard the story breaking I know that people would have to go and if they get thrown out at least we mite get another new team in next year what have happenz I will watch it through fink and thin no matter what
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Money talks meanwhile funs have been taken to a mystery land where about they have not a clue who is straight and who is not. There is so much competition in F1 that it is hard to imagine how the FIA can manage. Removing Briatore and Symonds will not make much difference to the hunger for increased sales at any costs. Following F1 for years I am becoming now sceptical where this is all going. Can anyone restore the faith in fair and square competition?
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"113. At 9:01pm on 16 Sep 2009, jetbar wrote:
Can anyone restore the faith in fair and square competition?"
Unfortunately no. Not while F1 is still viewed by big business as a business and not a sport.
Sadly like everything else in this world F1 has been hijacked by big business, who invariably see it as a marketing exercise and pull out if their latest greatest tech. becomes a failure and doesn't generate the sales they want in road cars (yes BMW I mean you).
Having said that if Bernie was got rid of and the sport went back to the days of the garagistas, or even as late as the 80s, it may recover.
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As a former F1 fan who's in the middle of drifting back into the sport (ok I admit, I'm as shallow as the next man, it's partly because of recent Brit sucess & partly because I just bought a walloping great plasma screen) but also as someone who is a lifelong Rugby & 15 year Harlequins fan (who was at the infamous Leinster "Bloodgate" match)......it's deja vu all over again here.
Apart from the scale of sport & the money involved, the similarities are remarkable. Dean Richards/Flavio Briatore asks Tom Williams/Nelson Piquet Jr to chew the blood capsule/crash so that Nick Evans/Alonso can make the big play for the team in the key match.
Unfortunately in the rugby story, the young gun feels the pressure and tells all (after alledgedly initially attempting to make personal gain by negotiating with Quins to buy his silence) having been personally walloped by the authorities who smelled a rat & figured he would cave if they stuck the boot in (they gave him a 1 year ban initially & he spilled the beans almost immediately). Dean Richards/Flavio gets a three year global ban & the team get a near 300k fine. The Physio/Pat Symonds also went & I just saw a few minutes ago that the quins doctor who administered a cut to the player to cover up the fake blood capsule has now been suspended by the GMC.
I'm not sure about the awareness of the Nick Evans/Alonso characters here - surely it would make sense to keep them in the dark? Plausible deniability & all that, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of common sense in either of these two scenario's does there?
As it turns out, several other incidents by the Richards/Briatore figure come to light & are under investigation "in light of recent events...".
Couple of points I'd like to make here - Piquet doesn't seem to be the most popular driver ever mentioned on this forum, but something that came out of the Quins farrago, was the complete, absolute & total control the team manager had over the career, destiny & lifestyle of his team. As a 21 year old, breaking into the top level for the first time, there was no way Williams could've refused Richards request - he had a partner, a mortgage, a potential england career. Also, he did have to put himself in a position where he was hit hard enough to go down & bite the blood capsule convincingly & potentially risk his own health. How do you pretend to get knocked down by some trundling 18st monster who isn't in on the gag? Admittedly this is not the same as the risk Piquet took, with the safety of himself & bystanders, but I think you should consider the choice he probably felt he had at the time - "yes sir", or "I'll get my coat". is probably about it & dont' forget you can't begin to guess how rich/poor/close to bankruptcy these people are...you might think some sporting hotshot can say "shove it", but you just never know..
Yes it's dispiriting to have it rammeddown you throat that your sport is as shallow & amoral as football (sorry, but I've recently had my moral superiority well & truly scuppered....;), but unfortunately, that's professional televised global sport for you: so long as the rewards are there, people will cheat. If you want to go back to the corinthian values of amateurism, remember you can't watch it on telly......because there isn't any money in it, because there isn't an audience....
I don't think it's an irretrievably downhill journey though - technology - multi angle HD broadcasting, mass audience video & podcasting, open access for "insider" data (telemetry & reflink), makes it more & more difficult to pull the wool over the audience & authorities eyes.
Chin up people. Yes it's crap right now but it could be a lot worse...it could be football.
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Crashgate will be fantastic for F1 - loads more people talking about the sport - even my girlfriend wants to know what is going on!! I expect the fan base to go through the roof - the best season ever - especially with BBC coverage.
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115. At 9:18pm on 16 Sep 2009, NowIremember wrote:
Yes it's dispiriting to have it rammeddown you throat that your sport is as shallow & amoral as football (sorry, but I've recently had my moral superiority well & truly scuppered....;), but unfortunately, that's professional televised global sport for you: so long as the rewards are there, people will cheat. If you want to go back to the corinthian values of amateurism, remember you can't watch it on telly......because there isn't any money in it, because there isn't an audience....
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Perhaps Bernie should hand the reigns of F1 over to Vincent Kennedy McMahon then... /sarcasm
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Re No 115 NowIremember.
couldnt agree more, both the youngsters were under certain pressures, yes what they did was completely out of order but when you have your career ahead of you some people do stupid things
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Fae Farfar @ 33: As a matter of fact, by denouncing the whole thing, Nelsinho already has put a nail in the coffin of his career and in fairness he knows it.
Right or wrong, given the way that the F1 is, very hardly he will ever get a race day invitation, let a alone a drive.
I bet his shopping list already includes a Xbox or Playstation 3 and a F1 simulator because it will be as near as it gets for him to be involved in F1.
As for Briatore and Symmonds, should it be true, it does not really surprise me given the times back as mentioned on Andrew's great blog, when they were architets of Schummy's Benetton's championship and the so mamed traction control, the wooden plank and the final race crash into Damon Hill...
Whether they were out for them or not, fact is that they simply gave the chance by doing this whole mess.
In the end, Piquet paid with his career and them with their jobs. Whether Alonso knew it or not, I cannot say and wonder if anybody will ever be able to with clear certainty.
Probably also FIA will fine Renault or remove their constructors points but nothing further since the responsibles (driver and managers) have now left.
But whether Renault will be there is a guess because they may use this a scapegoat to pull out given the world crisis in car sales.
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Of course controversy adds to excitement however when young perspective driver (individual) has been potentialy corrupted by the 'winning at all costs' culture, very dangerous scenario has been created. It looks almost ridiculous when race directors penalise drivers for touching in the first corner and arranged crash can happen in front of the tv cameras going unnoticed.
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I sincerely hope that Renault F1'a announcement not to contest the allegations made by the FIA concerning the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix and the information that Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds, have left the team will not effect the search for the truth or mitigate the penalty handed down to the Renault F1 team should the allegations be found proven at the forthcoming extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Monday, 21 September 2009.
In light of the damaging information already in the public domain only the truth will do. Unless the Renault F1 team and individuals specifically associated with the allegations come out and tell the truth then there is no place for the Renault F1 team or those individuals in motor racing or any other sport for that matter.
I believe that the Renault F1 brand and its sponsors are permanently damaged. Renault F1 must do the honourable thing - tell the whole truth about the affair and then retire from the sport never to return again.
This type of behaviour can no longer be tolerated in Formula 1 motorsport.
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'Lewis/McLaren were made a scapegoat'
Bit of a one eyed view that I am afraid, you cannot assume Alonso is guilty and declare Mclaren and driver innocent when the evidence pointed otherwise?
The only man made a scapegoat was the long term Mclaren employee (who's name I forget) for being complicit to the rather daft affair in Melbourne. F1 is a ruthless enviroment where by talent over rides any discretion, Alonso will be in a seat next year like it or not and quite probably a very good one.
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"121. At 9:35pm on 16 Sep 2009, doc34tr wrote:
I sincerely hope that Renault F1'a announcement not to contest the allegations made by the FIA concerning the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix and the information that Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds, have left the team will not effect the search for the truth or mitigate the penalty handed down to the Renault F1 team should the allegations be found proven at the forthcoming extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Monday, 21 September 2009.
In light of the damaging information already in the public domain only the truth will do. Unless the Renault F1 team and individuals specifically associated with the allegations come out and tell the truth then there is no place for the Renault F1 team or those individuals in motor racing or any other sport for that matter.
I believe that the Renault F1 brand and its sponsors are permanently damaged. Renault F1 must do the honourable thing - tell the whole truth about the affair and then retire from the sport never to return again.
This type of behaviour can no longer be tolerated in Formula 1 motorsport.
"
Whilst I'm sure most of us would agree the behaviour of Piquet Jr/Snr, Symmonds and Briatore should not be tolerated I don't agree that Reanult should be booted out.
For the simple fact that the 700 or so employees at the team had no knowledge of the instructions Piquet Jr was given and carried out.
Where sir would you propose the innocent employees go if Renault are pushed out of F1?
If Renault choose to leave F1 then so be it, one would hope they do not, for the sake of the employees, as there will be scarce employment for them in these hard times.
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If the two main people in Renault has left, that proves that the allegations are true, which is a shame. With all this happened, doesn't that means Massa did win the 2008 championship, if so, how will this be soughted out. This will not stop me from watching F1. Does this means that Alonso will go to Ferrari?
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regarding not kicking out renault because of the employees, unfortunately this is a decision which must be made regardless of the employees, this could have been a fatal accident and serious action must be taken
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The FIA have a major problem here.
They fined Mclaren £50M, (or whatever it was) for spying. They didn't rig a race, or put anybody's life at risk, or force a driver to cheat (that time anyway..)
So - what do you do to Renault? The fact the two guys have gone doesn't matter I'm afraid. £100M? £500M? It all starts to get silly. Now, what they might just do is ban them from next year's championship. That, methinks, would suit everybody including Renault....
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Seem,s odd that anything is a surprise in a billion dollar sport (sic). It,s not new.Anybody that couldn't, see what happened a year ago was looking the wrong way! Shame Piquet want,s out of F1 so quickly though he might have learned how not to crash in time.If you have a driver who,s crashed that often naming a lap is not necessarily a crime
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Sorry if this point has already been made, but there have been a lot of comments since this story broke so I may have missed it.
Does todays news actual amount to an admission of guilt by either Briatore or Symonds? Have they dropped the legal proceedings against the Piquets? I wouldn't be surprised if someone at Renault (the company, not the team) didn't look at this at think "we're leaving F1 at the end of the season and this will cost millions to defend". The case will drag on and on and we cannot afford the bad publicity in the current car market.
Lets just get rid of these two and let them fight it themselves if they want.
I'm still not sure whether Piquet can prove he was told to crash. The telematry may well show he was accelerating when he should have been braking, but wouldn't it show that in lots of crashes? It still comes down to one mans word against anothers. If the radio transmissions of the incident show communication between driver and team that would a completely different kettle of badgers, but if they did then lots of people would have known about it as they are recorded.
Anyone who doubts Renault will leave just needs to look at the BMW Sauber sale. No one would buy a team that hasn't been given the nod from Uncle Bernie that there was going to be another place available - even though he may still push for an extra team.
Either way I don't think we've heard the end of this.
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@Carlonso {#48)
There is no such thing as "attempted manslaughter". Manslaughter is the charge made when you kill someone but without sufficient intent for it to be murder. Given that there is no intent, you can't have attempted manslaughter. There may be other charges such as endangering life, but these will be lesser charges and it would be very unlikely that they would get anywhere; given that he crashed on an empty track into a nice thick barrier, the chances of anyone apart from him suffering any serious injury were small.
I agree with the comments above along the lines of "I could believe it of Briatori but I'm shocked about Symonds". He did always seem to have a reasonable dose of integrity and honesty, and I am extremely surprised that not only did he consider it as a course of action but believed they could get away with it.
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What bothers me is that the telemetry of Piquet's car was available and nobody asked question why he did not ease on the throttle or made correction when his rear started spinning.
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Briatore.... Believable! Pat Symonds what the hell were you thinking? Normally the first to be asked for a comment about other unsavoury incidents.Nelson well well you should have said no.Intrest high, morality low!
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The sport is its own worst enemy. In a sport where fans complain of no over-taking, what must the teams be thinking? - not even fueling tactics can win races for some teams so what then?
By no means do I condone what Renault may have done but if they felt the pressure to win then they are victims of the circumstance modern F1 leaves them in. Teams that don't win must lose millions. They found a way to win.
Does it mean they were right? - no. Does it mean people should lose their jobs? No. Does it mean the sport should change? ABSOLUTELY.
We're getting there but there isn't enough racing. Teams need to be able to race. Then Renaault can keep Alonoso in their car and let him do his own talking.
This scenario would never have occurred if the sport hadn't got so stale.
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I am truly saddened by all that is happening once again in "my" sport.
I would like,after reading all posts to date,to make a few observations.
1)65 riggadon. Why are you posting on a sport you do not watch? GO AWAY!
2)70 sundaymorning(love that) very good point. 3) Has anyone realised that Piquet knew he could not live up to his father? He was struggling, I would have hated to be in that lads shoes when he realised that he could not live up to the name. I am not excusing what he did, just giving a reason for a desperate young mans' manipulation by his boss.
Of course the Piquet name is damaged, but out of all of this I really hope young Nelson can find his own way in life with the support of his dad. I am very sad about P Symonds. Fall guy? Or complicit?
Finally I cannot believe Alonso is as pure as he makes out. Trouble and scandal follow him. If as said he goes to Ferarri, perhaps the circle will be complete?
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Some interesting comments and some interesting information.
I've been interested by the reaction in Spain. Or, rather, the lack of it. Normally the media would have been up in arms at an accusation of this kind, as they were before the doping revelations in cycling and athletics. Very little was said and what was said seemed almost resigned in tone. Fernando Alonso, who is a demi-god in Spain, made no public comment at all until 10 days ago when he said that he was "surprised by the allegations". If he were genuinely innocent of any involvement that is an incredibly mild reaction.
I really do get the feeling that all this has been an open secret in motor sport circles. Spanish TV, far from coming out and saying that this was a disgraceful attack on the favourite son of Spanish sport, even suggested at Monza that, yes, the Piquet-Renault meeting had occurred as reported, but that the crash plan had been Piquet's initiative: there was no attempt to suggest that there was no truth in the allegations (incidentally, their expert commentator is Pedro de la Rosa).
It is very hard to imagine that Fernando Alonso knew nothing. Surely he would have wondered why, when the normal strategy after a poor qualifying is to run for as long as you can, he was being pulled in to the pits so incredibly early.
As various people have already commented, there is a common link in the McLaren spying scandal and the Renault crash scandal. In fact, two... in both cases there was a bitter driver who thought that he'd got a raw deal from his team... and in both Fernando Alonso played a central role. At very least, when he goes to Ferrari, he needs to be very very careful to avoid further controversy.
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# 134 Goatslayer..
"Does it mean people should lose their jobs? No. "
So you are seriously suggesting these two guys should just be allowed to continue regardless ???????
There will always be degree of cheating, rule-stretching etc in F1, but to do it in a way that could get somebody killed or injured cannot, ever, be even remotely tolerated. As for criminal charges, I wonder if fraud comes into it - if you fix a cricket match say, you're in big trouble.... ask Hanse Cronje; OK he's been dead for years but you know what I mean!
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Glad to see Briatore gone. He was bad for the sport. wrong attitude, wrong ethics. sorry for symonds though. surely this will spark the Alonso/Ferrari announcement.
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So Martin Brundle is "disappointed in Piquet father and son". Is he saying that F1 should keep this crash-gate covered up?
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Every team cheats in some way or other like BMW when they put fuel in that was too cold or when BAR built that hidden petrol tank... Aero elements are too bendy, etc, etc... F1 teams will alwasy push the rules and their interpretation of the rules to the limits...
In this case however, Renault made a decision that could have put the lives of other drivers at risk because who knows what bits could have flown off Piquet's car - just look at Massa
I don't think we'll be seeing Renault in F1 next year. OK they let Briatore and Symmonds go but the should the WMSC find Renault guilty then they could face an indefinite ban from the sport. That's why Alonso is likely to go to Ferrari or even return to McLaren next season and why BMW Sauber are confident of getting that lucrative 13th slot on the grid next year.
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Just a note: people are asking what Pat Symmonds was thinking. Possibly the missed the fact that he was offered immunity in return for telling the investigation everything that he knew. It seems that he must have rejected the offer.
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Criminal proceeding? Depends on whether the conduct is criminal - two candidates below - and the attitude of the authorities in Singapore who are a pretty tough bunch.
Under the Penal Code Piquet might face a charge under s.287:
Negligent conduct with respect to any machinery in the possession or under the charge of the offender
287. Whoever does, with any machinery, any act so rashly or negligently as to endanger human life, or to be likely to cause hurt or injury to any other person, or knowingly or negligently omits to take such order with any machinery in his possession or under his care as is sufficient to guard against any probable danger to human life from such machinery, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to one year, or with fine which may extend to $5,000, or with both.
Those that conspired to cause the crash and take an advantage from it might face conspiracy to cheat charges.
Cheating
415. Whoever, by deceiving any person, whether or not such deception was the sole or main inducement, fraudulently or dishonestly induces the person so deceived to deliver any property to any person, or to consent that any person shall retain any property, or intentionally induces the person so deceived to do or omit to do anything which he would not do or omit to do if he were not so deceived, and which act or omission causes or is likely to cause damage or harm to any person in body, mind, reputation or property, is said to “cheat”.
I
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I hope Piquet never races again - his sudden 'coming clean' was childish revenge. His actions are dishonest go the core - it was nice to see he got something right in his F1 career, he crashed at the right place!
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comment141 bazeden Alonso...McLaren? there is life on Mars!
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BBC stick with Dancing on Ice you can't even have an open Fourm Thread on F1 without Sencoring, Jonathan Ross & Russell brand could say what the liked on BBC Radio...
We Can't even leave a comment without it been removed.......
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Oh - one thing people seem to have missed.
If you read the fuller transcript of Symond's statement, seems it was PIQUET who suggested this whole thing the day before! Nice guy......
It was also disconcerting I thought to hear that nice Mark Webber on the subject - 'It would take a lot to get me to deliberately do that'. Well that's comforting for the honesty and integrity of the sport isn't it!
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there has been many cheats in sport, but this is amongst the worst and most despicable i have ever seen.
dont be drawn into debate because there is no way to justify this.
if people arent punished to the full extent possible then these situations will become worse.
simple
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I've arrived a bit late to this story but, frankly, it just doesn't surprise me anymore.
But now that I've watched the crash on youtube, I have to say that if he did crash deliberately, it looks like he did a pretty convincing job.
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This is the worst, of many very bad, scandals to affect F1 over the last few years. It should, I think, be used as a catalyst to rethink the sport completely: to start with the proverbial "blank sheet of paper".
My suggestion is very simple. FIA should, as now, publish regulations for each season. Teams should respond by detailing, in sealed envelopes before each "race", precisely how they would break those rules were the "race" actually to be held. The FIA/stewards would then meet to decide the places. This is effectively how the sport runs now anyway. Virtually every race includes some incident to be reviewed after the race, such as Hamilton lying to the stewards in Australia. We've had Mclaren stripped of all points, grid penalties for crashes etc.
So why doesn't F1 make a real contribution to climate change, and simply stop travelling all round the world to hold meaningless "races", the results of which are then changed because they don't suit the marketing decisions of the corproations taking part? Just let the FIA tell us the results every 2-3 weeks and save everyone the travel expense.
Incidentally, what is the BBC justification for spending licence money on this farce? F1 has ceased to have any sporting relevance. It's a bit like athletics. In F1, the contest is all about who can break the technical rules and has the best lawyers to defend them when they get caught. In athletics it's all about who has the best pharmacologists to provide performance enhancing drugs and then masking agents to hide them. There are far more virtuous activities to spend the licence money on. BBC (and other broadcasters) should drop F1. Nobody will miss it.
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Shame on Symonds, Briatore and Piquet. What they did was unforgiveable. To let a driver crash. Dangering his life, his co-racers life, the stewards and fans. All for a podium finish. Formula 1 is a great sport. But a sport with amples of ways to cheat. A sport that needs the trust of its fans. Or simply it will not survive. I have stopped watching athletics apart from the BOLT races, because i find it hard to trust any of them. I want to, and i know many are honest athletes but until anti-doping measures begin to really work i will avoid it. The same with F1. I have not missed a race this season. The BBC has kept me glued with its top class coverage. But i will boycott the next race. It may be childish or simply stupid and really it will make no difference but if there are any F1 bosses reading this, beware. Do not cheat. Make great cars.
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during "diffuser gate" earlier this season, a very interesting piece of information came out during the hearing on the diffusers. Ferrari representative said "why is it that two seasons ago you (the fIA) gave us permission to use a piece of tecknology, and then you say we cant and now we can?"
there was a silence and then. Then someone (i think the BMW rep) said "but wait? you had permission from the FIA to use that in 08 when it was illegal to the rest of us?
Basically the car that Kimi won in beating Hamilton was illegal under FIA regs, and the FIA approved it. Why does that not get mentioned during these dodgy behavior chats? Its huge!!!!
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150. At 00:11am on 17 Sep 2009, JayPee28bpr wrote:
Incidentally, what is the BBC justification for spending licence money on this farce? F1 has ceased to have any sporting relevance. It's a bit like athletics. In F1, the contest is all about who can break the technical rules and has the best lawyers to defend them when they get caught. In athletics it's all about who has the best pharmacologists to provide performance enhancing drugs and then masking agents to hide them. There are far more virtuous activities to spend the licence money on. BBC (and other broadcasters) should drop F1. Nobody will miss it.
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I do believe you are wrong there. The viewing figures would suggest that many people would miss it.
Not everyone has a satellite or other cable subscription and not everyone wishes to have one just to watch one event.
For me the only thing I watch on the BBC, aside from the odd news bulletin is F1, so I think that I'm getting my monies worth from the BBC, and I cannot afford a satellite subscription on the wages that I earn so if the BBC didn't have coverage I'd be missing out. It's bad enough that there is precious little motorsports as it is on British TV.
Besides it's the only "man TV" on terrestrial "free to view" TV.
And it's far better than the alternative - more and more cheap "reality talent" shows like "Strictly solve a problem like joesph and maria dancing".
152. At 00:50am on 17 Sep 2009, alge7a wrote:
during "diffuser gate" earlier this season, a very interesting piece of information came out during the hearing on the diffusers. Ferrari representative said "why is it that two seasons ago you (the fIA) gave us permission to use a piece of tecknology, and then you say we cant and now we can?"
there was a silence and then. Then someone (i think the BMW rep) said "but wait? you had permission from the FIA to use that in 08 when it was illegal to the rest of us?
Basically the car that Kimi won in beating Hamilton was illegal under FIA regs, and the FIA approved it. Why does that not get mentioned during these dodgy behavior chats? Its huge!!!!
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It does. But this discussion isn't about Ferarri getting preferential treatment from the FIA. And besides we all know FIA have in the past been biased towards Ferrari, and will be in the future if Jean Todt is to take Max Mosleys position.
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How The Mighty Fall ! Never Mind Flav, That's More Time To Pose With A Few More Size Zeros, While Still Having A Few Zeros Left In The Bank ( Bless ) He's Had A Good Run And He Made A Large Impact In F1, He Could Always Take Over From Bernie ! ( He'd Like That Me Thinks ) But I Doubt He'd Find To Many Supporters In The World Of F1 Double - Talk ! Shame About Pat, I Hope He Finds A Home In F1 Somewhere ( Lotus ) !!!
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REF 121 126 127
Don't be daft? Sacrifice 700 employers at Renault for the insane act of 3 people?
It would be WRONG for Renault to pull out. That, in itself, would be an admission of guilt for the whole team,not to mention further destabilizing F1 with further large car manufacturer withdrawals. They need to recruit the right people. Jean Todt anyone?
REF 130
I am totally draconian on this.
Call me old fashioned, but this is the sport where people risked their lives for the passion, for the speed, for the challenge, to be the fastest, to win races.To have the glory. The modern day equivalent of Knights jousting for honour.
Jackie Stewart - how many of his fellow divers/friends did he have to witness die on the track, for the sport they love?
These were real men. Men who above all respected the nature of their sport.
It's funny - all this excitement about Schuey coming back...and nostalgia has a funny way of smearing over the cracks of time - makes you forget the ills.
It's during the Benetton glory years that I actually switched off from watching the sport - there was so much cr@p with schuey, his car, and this guy with lots of money but no class - Flavio " look at me - i'm with Naomi Campbell" Briatore.
Bye bye to him.Finally.
Piquet Jnr is an idiot, a coward and a potential killer.
He, with Briatore and Symmons must face charges.
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The whole thing is a bit confusing.
Interesting that Mosley is forced out in a semi civil coup d'etat and a few weeks later one of his main persecuters is culled. No offense Mr Benson but your article does tend to lean towards the more sensational parts of the story. I think the real issue hear is a distinct move from "the powers that be" who oporate from a near, invisible (intangible?) background not apparent to the people who just want to see fast cars go fast (may the best man win etc!), wish a distinct change in the status quo at the top of F1.
Misters Dennis, Briatore and a few other less powerful players have all been shipped off to pastures new and the balance of powers is starting to shift in formula one. I must confess at this point for anyone (including myself, dear reader) to see where exactly this powers is running off to. It could be CVC felxing its muscles after the recent "breakaway" deable, or manufacturers having "manufactured" some extra benefits after threatening a mass exodus, or Mosley's revenge, or indeed the sharpest tool in the box, Bernard, trying to win back control, have one last hurrah or any number of explainations. But times they are a changin'.
Viva La Revolution!
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PS. Some spelling mistakes above (deBacle!)! Very passionate = type fast!
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This latest incident is far worse than the Mclaren Spy gate or lie gate, I didn't think F1 could get any lower but it has managed to succeed.I hope that Briatore and Symmonds never work in F1 again.
If Renault aren't thrown out of the constructors championship and fined a huge amount of cash then it will be a complete joke, after all they were guilty of spying but got away with it last time.
Alonso shouldn't be penalised, he obviously wasn't involved in the decision and is the only one who has any credibility left at Renault.
I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Piquet. What choice did he have in last year's Singapore race? He was loyal to the team to the extent he broke the rules but still got sacked less than a year later.
Get rid of Mosley, get rid of Ecclestone and get a strong, unbiased hand at the helm of F1!
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Have always liked Martin Brundle- as a driver/commentator but...his column about the Piquet's family speaking out needs to be clear...is he saying that they should have kept quiet??? I love Formula 1 but these rich clowns running it are destroying my sport. Still remember at least two corner workers being killed in Canada by flying car's or parts...especially tires...
Tryin to win at any costs...these guys are a disgrace...
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Can't quite grasp what the driver would have got from this 'cos I'm quite sure if someone asked me to crash a car my answer would have been two words, Anglo Saxon in origin and more than one letter "F".
It just makes me wonder though what direction all sport is taking in the name of sport.
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It's like wacky races, anything goes, whoever wins is the cunningest person with bravado and guts, not necessarily the quickest, but the most ruthless.
I think they should say that anything goes and let them get on with it!
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The only way that F1 can regain its credibility is to just stop it. Finish this years championship but then put the cars on the bricks for a year, take the financial hit, and use the year to regroup, restructure and hopefully come out of it a little less ethically challenged. A huge shame.
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If telnolies (#147) has got it right, and the crash was indeed Piquet Jr's idea, I can only conclude that he already knew the writing was on the wall as far as his Renault career was concerned.
By making his bosses complicit in his cheating, he may have hoped that he would be unsackable.
--
WHEN, I now wonder, did Piquet Snr get to know about it? Only after his son's ejection from F1 this summer? Or was he as prepared to lie by ommission azs his son for the sake of the latter's career?
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I am surprised at some comments here. Ultimately the crash was one of the biggest "faux pas" we have seen in the sport for years but look how it has increased visibility of F1. Any press is good press and F1 is not solely about motor racing anymore. Its a huge commercial powerhouse and as we all know, media coverage makes or breaks these things in our modern society.
This is good for F1, bad for Renault and opens the door for a new challenger. Bring on 2010.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So if the panel on Monday decides that race manipulation was indeed carried out in Singapore last year, what does that mean for the result? I seem to remember Massa was in the lead when the accident happened, or at least ahead of Hamilton, who went on to win the championship by only one point. Haven't done the maths, but if Massa came out in front overall if the Singapore results were disregarded, would F1 declare him World Champion ex-post? Is that what we as fans would want? Would it be in the interest of the sport? I am lost.
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The Telemetry is the give away! this crash was no accident!
However there must have been more Renault Engineers involved in the crash analysis!
see for yourselves at tinyurlDOTcomSLASHPiquetTelemetry
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Its about time for Telemetry to be Published after any race incidents! that will keep the drivers honest!
What now?
Renault Excluded From 2009
Alonso Moves To Ferrari for remainder of season
Alain Prost to lead Renault in 2010
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I think that's it for Renault, as mentioned earlier, their main sponsor ING isn't in the best of shape at the moment, their road car sales are down, and they have be aware of the fact that they're going to at least get a ban of some description anyway, whether that's for the rest of this season, next season, or whatever, remains to be seen, God knows they deserve it too. It's an ideal time for them to pull out of F1 altogether, even if it's just to lie low for a year or too, see what happens in the sport, and with the worlds economic climate, and then come back as a new team. These are as they say "interesting times"!
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Taken from Piquet Jr's statement...
"The proposal to deliberately cause an accident was made to me shortly before the race took place, when I was summoned by Mr. Briatore and Mr. Symonds in Mr. Briatore's office"
He has clearly stated that it was these two men that proposed this scenario so why should the other 700+ staff in the Renault team be held accountable?
Yes it did endager the safety of the fans marshalls and drivers but again if it was Briatore and Symonds asking him to crash then it was them and Piquet ( For going along with it no matter what state of mind he was in ) that were doing so not the Renault team.
Piquet should be banned from going near a racing car ever again for going along with it and then only choosing to disclose the truth after his unceremonious depature from the team like a child throwing a tantrum.
I'm not defending Briatore or Symonds either as they should be similarly punished, I'm just hoping that the Renault team are not dragged into this mess on account of three individuals.
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#137 - telnolies
Yes I am saying regardless. With punishment but they should be allowed to keep their jobs.
A point that I have seen is this idea of risking lives. This skews the argument ridiculously. 1. The crash was down a fenced straight. 2. Extremely good safety measures exist to prevent risking lives. 3. The cars are built to last. A front nose/side impact at the speed Piquet was doing should keep the car in tact. A calculated risk.
Look - I don't *condone* it one bit. But the discussion is severely swayed by this idea. There is more risk of harm in the pit-lane to individuals. I imagine the chances of Piquet or anyone else being hurt in that incident are far-far lower than the chances of a Massa-like incident.
Like I said in my original post in some way renault are victims of the sport, its rules and lack of racing. Their extreme measures to try and win are race are indicitive of that desparation for parity and to win races and make money to survive in the sport.
That should be what people are focusing on here.
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"The 59-year-old Italian, who has cultivated an image as a jet-setting playboy businessman" has now confirmed to the world of sport that he thought he was above the rules but has now been found out for what he is. Formula One is better off without people like this. That Briatore should ask Piquet to risk injury by deliberately crashing his car is beyond the pale, and for Piquet to agree to do it is astonishing. I wonder what Briatore would say to anyone who asked him to deliberately crash his car? Is this what the so-called professionals in Formula One have now come to? Let's hope Briatore is next kicked out of Queens Park Rangers Football Club for failing the football authorities' fit-and-proper test for club directors.
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171#
"Like I said in my original post in some way renault are victims of the sport, its rules and lack of racing. Their extreme measures to try and win are race are indicitive of that desparation for parity and to win races and make money to survive in the sport. That should be what people are focusing on here."
You say you're not condoning what Briatore and Renault did, but in what way exactly are Renault victims of Formula One or its rules? The option to enter a team is theirs and theirs alone. If there was "a lack of racing" things would be easier for Renault wouldn't they, and they wouldn't need to resort to such tactics would they? If Renault find Formula One too competitive, or if they don't want to race fairly, then they should get out and stay away.
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#171 - aries22
My original post is #134.
I will simply add resorting to "the choice is theirs argument" pretty much invalidates most discussion here. You can use it anywhere:
- It was Piquets choice to crash
- It was Piquets choice to keep it quiet before/during and after the race
- It was Piquets choice to drive for renault
- It was Briatores choice not to ask him to crash
- His choice to leave
- His idea to cheat...
Yes, yes. We all know this. I'm simply trying to look into a deeper reason behind this extreme course of action by the team.
Fact is, they are in the sport and they like others want to be part of the greatest racing show on earth. It isn't the greatest racing show on earth. I think this could cause serious problems for teams that should they leave the sport as fans we would all be up in arms about and cost many hundreds of people their jobs. I explain more in #134.
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170 - Reyman 89..
The problem with feeling sorry for Piquet is that according to the fuller published transcript of Symonds statement - and he seems to have decided NOT to lie about this whole thing - is that it was Piquet's idea in the first place! He apparently came up with it after Saturday qualifying, and since he's not the sharpest knife in the box we may reasonably assume it was his dad's idea. Can't see why Symonds would lie about that and nothing else, can you?
Nice guys. They come up with it, Renault (foolishly) go along with it, then they 'out' Renault in a fit of Pique - always did wonder where that word came from lol!
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Excellent win by Alonso!
Piquet Jnr should be punished for deliberately crashing his car.
His bosses should also punished for suggesting the act.
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'So Mr Briatori, what are your excuses for this incident?'
'Ita wasa dark...'
'Yeah, that'll do for me; Bernie? happy with that?
'Yep, seems resonable to me'
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It's all a big conspiracy theory ;o)
.....if the FIA decide to exclude Renault from F1, whether permanently or not, would this mean that they're no longer bound by the Concorde agreement and therefore the penalties of not running a team in 2010, 11 and 12?
**If** Renault are looking for a way out, then this would be it, they can always blame the actions of the trio for the downfall of the team and the loss of jobs. The company get away scot free without the financial penalties and too much bad publicity - "it's all Briatore's fault!"
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The whole announcement of the 14th place slot for BMW Sauber now seems like orchestrated timing by the FIA. It's a political signal to say to Renault: "We have the teams to compete without you, we can throw you out and we will if you don't get your house in order."
I don't think there will be a fine for the team, hopefully a fine and lifetime ban for Briatore and Symonds. What drove them to consider this is beyond me.
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Looks like F1 is imploding. Integrity, it would seem, is no longer a part of sport. The problem is integrity is a foundation of sport. If it doesn't return soon to F1, we'll be doing something else on Saturday and Sunday.
As I read this story, a song started going round in my head. Here's the memorable lyric from the song by Stevie V:
"Money talks, mmm-hmm-hmm, money talks
Dirty cash I want you, dirty cash I need you, woh-oh"
The financial incentives of winning may well be clouding the integrity of winning a race fair and square.
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Briatore has been a prominent figure in F1 as long as I've been following the sport, but personally I never warmed to him. I've always believed that cheating is totally unacceptable in ANY sport and F1 is no exception, so i'm relieved to see some integrity in the FIA following this allegation up. Right or wrong of Nelson Piquet to blow the whistle, this "damaging" incident is clearing out a pair of (possibly) prolific cheaters (see Bennetton traction control scandal et.al.) from a sport reliant on honest competition to keep the fans that they claim are so important. To me, thats a good result any day. Sorry flavio, goodbye and good riddance.
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I've just heard Eddie Irvine on the radio.
He condones Piquet's actions as teams try to "win at all cost" and it's a "war".
Coupled with Webber's comments in which he would have to be severely tempted to do such a thing.
So - I reckon bring back Stuart Hall and Eddie Waring (g. bless) to present "It's a knockout Grand Prix", with Bernie as ringmaster
They can all fall about laughing as these clowns behind the wheel try shunt each other off the track. Magic!
If this farce carries on I'll have to be content myself in watching 3-2-1 repeats with Ted Rodgers.Dusty Bin is more fun.
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Good point about Nelson jnr , Surely he shouls lose his superlicence at the very least ? , Or can the FIA summon him ? , What can they ( or any other govering body ) do to him ? . .
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In practice for the race Alonso was fast but ended up 15th on the grid. Normal strategy in such case cars fuel long. But this is a street circuit and under lights and the first F1 race here. So a gamble on an early pace car is not an unreasonable one. The downside is that if the gamble fails then you are likely to end up worse off. I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember that Alonso was fueled to lap 14?
In the event he was called in on lap 12, even earlier.
Alonso does not seem to me the sort of driver who would take such a change without questioning it especially when it is likely to compromise his position even more. Do we have the tapes of the radio conversations between him and the pits about this? Absence of any question from him of this change in strategy would not prove anything but would certainly be interesting.
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So it seems there is some truth in it after all...... blimey what's F1 turned into. Seems like its more about the money, the money, the money.
I'm sure someone might have already posted this but my dad and I were emailing each other and the consequences of Renaults actions, meant the 2008 F1 World Championship ended in Singapore.
Before Piquet Jr's massive crash and the safety car being deployed Felipe Massa was leading the race. He then got caught up in the pitstop fiasco that followed and ended up scoring 0 points and he only lost the world championship by 1 point.........................
As well as that massive blow to Felippe at last years Singapore race rumours were around that Renault were ready to pull out of F1 if the teams fortunes didn't turn around drastically. Hey presto Alonso got a double win on the trot at Singapore and Japan. Shame really as the Japan race was an amazing drive.
I bet in all this Felippe is fuming and so are Ferrari.
Si
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What did the FIA adviser mean when they said in the Pat Symonds transcript:
"FIA adviser: Can I say that if Mr. Symonds you'd been put in the position where you were made to ask Mr. Piquet Jnr to crash it's much better, it would be much better for you in the long term to tell these stewards to hear that today?"
A cynic might suggest they were trying to get Symonds to say something to stitch someone else up. Any guesses who that might be?
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Surely the last real case of race 'fixing' was Austria 2002, with Ferrari. Ok, this was much more blatant, but all that happened was they were stripped of the manufacturer points from that race. (the driver's kept their's) and fined.
And then I suppose there's Indianapolis that year, where Schumacher engineered the close finish, only to let Barichello sneak it. But no punishment was administered there.
Other forms of cheating have gone severly punished, but this seems to have slipped through the FIA's fingers over the year, and therefore I'm not sure how much they can punish Renault. Although much more dangerous than these other examples, I don't see how it brings the sport into disrepute anymore...
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Surly what they have done amounts to attempted Manslaughter !!!
Also, what about Massa, if he gained points in the race and there was every chance he would have done then he would have won the World Championship.
The knock on effect to every driver and team re points is a major issue.
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Why am I not surprised about yet another scandal? Jenson, Ruebens and all at Brawn, thanks for breathing fresh air into a stale foul smelling 'sport'. I've had enough though, I wish you well for the remainder of the season, I'll not be watching the next one.
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Please let this mean he is not “fit and proper” under Football League rules, so that Queens Park Rangers can escape his interference in team affairs.
The guy knows little about football, but insists on meddling in team affairs.
I think all QPR fans will greet this as good news. Mr Mittal your time has come to save the R’s
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The bottom line is lives were put in danger. Maybe it was the 'safest place' to crash as it has high barriers there. But the point still needs to be made that harm could have come to so many people.
I think even though the 2 instigators have left, they should still face the charges and any penalty issued should be made financial to them personally.
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Hope they throw the book at them...Good riddance to bad rubbish.
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#188. as has been mentioned, you cannot have 'attempted manslaughter', you can have attempted murder, but as there is no suggestion that anyone attempted to deliberatly kill someone else it's thankfully unlikely such a charge would be made. You cannot deliberatly make a bid to unintentionally kill someone, which is what attempted manslaugher would be!
I find it very difficult to believe that NP Jnr cooked this one up, proposed it to Flav and Pat and they capitulated? Unless this is what Flav meant when he said he'd been blackmailed? What, if anything did NP Snr stand to gain from this? Jr didn't seem to have much of a future whether or not he ensured Alonsos win, the team yes, Flav and Pat yes, I think NP Snr is uncertain-so far. ;-)
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If its proven that the Spectators and Marshalls were placed in danger due to "Insane Planning!" - Then the Justise should be the same as what happened to McLaren -----But remember how much the sport has suffered due to the last 12 months of fighting and backstabbing! --- The FIA needs to move on with new leadership and FOTA needs to stay focused and race for the spectators and sponsers without anymore of this garbage that fuels the Tabloids with more reasons for sponsers to pull the plug and ruin our racs weekends
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What would have been pefect behaviour by Piquet?
Is it possible that a 23 year old employer would refuse to crash in 2008, when ordered to with milli-seconds to refuse an order by a powerful boss. I think almost no-one would manage to do that. He has no chance to talk to his father or anyone else.
So he crashes. Later talks to his father and understands what an awful thing has happened. Father and son feel dreadful, but do they report it to organizers immediately (and Piquet gets fired). Most of us would not.
In 2009 he has a complex relationship with Briatore following the Singapore horror. He drives poorly for many reasons ( emotional and technical)and is fired.
What does he do then? Kee quiet again or tell the truth? Which would you, all, do?
He tells the truth and most people seem to blame him.
If you read this, how would you have behaved through this almost impossible challenge?
He may not be a great driver, but I have considerable sympathy for the challenges he (and his father supporting him) have been through and I think I would have probably done the same. What better solution was really possible?
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Its a huge disappointment to me and the other passionate followers of F1 that Briatore and Symonds seem to have conspired to fix a race. Worse, to ask a driver to deliberately crash a car where injuries or even death could be sustained is reckless beyond belief.
This action if found to be true is up there with Ben Johnson, Frank Landis, Maradonna, Bruce Grobelaar, and all the other cheats our sports can collectively do without.
F1 will survive this but it must be seen to clear out the cynical rule breakers and make sure that they are never involved again. I'm talking about lifetime bans for these folk. How ever good they were in the past we'll all be better off without them in the future.
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With this and other scandals in the lsst couple of years, how many of the people participating in Formula 1 have any ideals or morals on the concept of what sport is supposed to be?
A football game in the park amongst friends doesn't need a referee; a consensus emerges about fouls or if a shot goes over the jumper used as a goalpost.
I take part in a sport which is still amateur, and even at the World or European Championships it isn't exceptional that if there's a need for technical help with repairs that people from rival manufacturers might all join in and help each other to keep someone in the event. Years ago as team manager I twice helped rivals for an hour or two in the evening, and this summer we were lending spare parts to others.
I feel sorry for Formula 1, as for some of its denizens the ultimate in professionalism seems to have squeezed out almost any vestige of what used to be thought of as sportsmanship. Could we imagine such as Jim Clark or Ronnie Peterson involved in some of the charades going on in formula 1 now? when Niki Lauda had his big accident, James Hunt was upset to win the championship without a proper contest.
At the end of the event, people go back from being rivals to being friends, and have a beer together. If they can't, they've lost something
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Just to play devils advocate, am I the only one to think Briatore and Symonds could have left because Renault would not support them !!!
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195 Nogusta..
All fine, EXCEPT seems it was Piquet's idea in the first place!
Perfect behaviour would be not to suggest it, and not to put lives at risk by doing it. Simple as that.
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I've just read the comments by Eddie Irvine and can only say that the man is spouting utter nonsense. Yes, some people do cheat, but he appears to condone it - never mind the impact on the people who love their sport and pay (directly or indirectly) the huge salaries of the participants.
Sport is not war Eddie. War is war. And if you can't tell the difference, then perhaps you should keep your mouth shut.
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Meant to add re Brundle's comments...
I think his piece is at best badly worded, as he seems to criticise the Piquets for revealing this. Now I'm not sure when exactly he wrote it and what was known publicly at the time, and it MAY be that he is thinking more of the fact that they suggested it, did it, then decided to reveal it not for sporting reasons but for revenge. Indeed, not nice people. But if that is what he means I'd suggest he clarifies it, as his words at present appear to condone dangerous cheating and criticise only the whistle-blowers, in which case he too should be deeply ashamed.
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Having just read Eddie Irvine's comments it amazes me that anyone bothers to seek his opinion on anything. He's basically saying that because F1 is highly competitive that we should accept that these things go on. Sorry Eddie, but putting people's lives at risk in order to obtain a tactical advantage in a car race, is something that should be treated with the utmost seriousness and with the highest level of sanctions.
Eddie's playboy lifestyle clearly hampered his talents whilst driving in F1 and it looks like nothing's changed. He really needs to learn to engage brain before mouth.
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It's not as if any other sport isn't without scandal. Look at football and such like...this is nothing new.
What we need, is to look at the good things that arise from this;
* Flavio Briatore is gone - while people chirp on about what a colourful character he was, I don't care. His attitude absolutely stunk, and he was bad for F1, right from the start when he was shuffled in by Benetton and he declared "I have no interest in motorsport". That was dubious enough...
* Nelson Piquet Jr - a driver who possessed no extraordinary speed, and who constantly displayed a face of a sulking and spoilt child, is probably no longer employable at the sport's top level. Any other team wouldn't dare risk having him blabbing about all their inside activities, whatever they maybe. Ferrari and McLaren would have to take even more care, seeing how many times they start ruffling feathers among the paddock.
* And talking of taking risks, no other team, unless they're really really daft, will try and pull that trick again!
* Renault, if they stay, will be put under the direction of a proper, respectable Formula One boss, and may just, in time, restore its reputation, as Ferrari and McLaren have done many, many times.
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Lucky for Piquet, he's got immunity. However, I believe Alonso should be punished - given a year ban at least. He knew exactly what was going to happen before he even lined up on the track. Piquet's action could have killed or seriously injured a driver, spectator or marshall. Alonso went along with it. He is as much as a CHEAT as his team bosses.
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I do have some sympathy for Piquet Jnr and I do not know if Piquet had a choice or what his state of mind was, but how do you think he is feeling knowing that his statement (although now appears true) has potentially brought down an entire team and their 700 employees with the only perceived motive being revenge.
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I tend to agree with some bloggers on here that all the scandal and sly tactics seem to be part of the sport - which in my opinion contributes towards the popularity of it. It is accepted that for an outfit (in any sport) to lose from the foul play of others, would potentially be denied earnings and glory, which should be fairly theirs. But is it not the money and glory which have caused the team/person(s) to cheat in the first instance? Sport is entertainment, and is such big business thus creating so many spin offs, financially and the like, that when money is thrown at things it is human nature to seek that winning edge. Formula 1 is in no way the only sport that does this and it is ludicrous for Damon Hill and others to be concerned about where the sport is heading. It has been like this since day one and will no doubt continue. I cannot think of a sport where there has not been controversy at some point in its life span. Rugby, Cycling, Yachting, Athletics, Football, Swimming, Boxing, Weightlifting (actually almost any Olympic sport), Horse Racing, just to name a few. If big business keep throwing money at the situation and media/fans put so much emphasis on glory, this situation will never disappear. But do we want it to disappear?
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QTM 205..
Actually I doubt Alonso knew, in advance anyway. He wouldn't have commented about it on camera to Flav after the race if he had. There wasn't a hint of any cunning plot in his attitude, more 'blimey, that strategy was a long-shot and it paid off'. Piquet's own engineers didn't know, so why tell Alonso - there was no need. Just convince him it was their only chance of winning, to hope for a safety car - which indeed it was, so no big problem there. And no I'm not an Alonso fan.
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I'm amazed that everyone is so upset about this - let's face it, F1 has been full of dirty tricks forever. This is a sport that generates unimaginable amounts of the filthy lucre and as such the people who control and participate in it are, as in other cash rich environments, very, very greedy. I agree with Eddie Irvine in so far as when he states that this sport has always been 'a gladiatorial spectacle' and to be honest that's what I always found fascinating. I'm also prepared to admit that the sport's sanitization over the last 20 years has left me unimpressed compared the days when Jim Clarke, Jackie Stuart, Graham Hill etc genuinely risked life and limb every time they raced. I'm not suggesting for one moment that the old days of high mortality should return but merely observing that what just transpired is perhaps the last vestige of a sport that used to be populated by brave, ruthless and talented people who would go to extreme lengths to win - and in the process would people like me gazing on in awe.
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@208
How can Piquets Engineers Not have known? See for yourself! Go here:
http://tinyurl.com/PiquetTelemetry
Don't ALL teams analyse to see why a crash happened?? This Telemetry is makes it obvious why the crash happened.. The Accelerator was fully depressed!
The Team knew maybe not before, but they knew! and they choose to keep quiet.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
People are right in saying Piquet has gone the wrong way about this.
1.He at least agreed to a dangerous plan, perhaps even suggested it.
2. He went through with it.
3. He didn't say anyhting about it at the time, only revealed it when his job was lost.
For the sake of his future, he would've been better off not agreeing to it, blowing the whistle at the race, and losing his job then. He would then have been in a good position to get a drive in 2010 with these new teams coming in. As it is, he is virtually unemployable to the F1 world.
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I think Eddie Irvine's comment that this is an overreaction just demonstrates how far out of tune these idiots are with the real world.
The only point that sport has at all, is that it is a competition based on mutual adherence to a set of rules.
If, as Irvine suggests, cheating is rampant in F1, then it has lost any justification for its continued existence. It is no longer meaningful.
Let's just can the whole thing, and we can concentrate on something worthwhile instead.
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So now we find out that Pat Symonds is saying that Nelson came to him with the idea! What rubbish. I'm sorry, but if that was the case, why did they agree to it. Any reasonable manager would have baulked at that idea.
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There's a tremendous amount of assumption going on here. In fact, it's turning into a bit of a witch hunt. Some sketchey information has been made available, upon which 'sentencing' is being passed before both sides have had a chance to put forward their case.
In the interest of fairness and integrity, how about hanging fire until after the FIA hearing?
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I have just read all these comments and I had to join in! Just to say Thankyou to F1 for making me aware of just how naive I am! I didn't believe for one minute that a F1 driver would be asked to crash on purpose......hmmm.... The alternative outcomes that could of happened are too scary to even imagine.
Having followed F1 for the last few years I knew of previous scandals but like I said before I am literally speechless as to this latest revelation.
Excuse me whilst I go and return to my blissfully naive world full of nice people and fluffy clouds! :o)
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To all those still going on about the Spygate penalties for McLaren as opposed to Renault's, can I point out that McLaren's original punishment for spygate was nothing, it was only on appeal when it was found that they'd not been entirely up front in their evidence that they were fined severely, Renault actually told McLaren that they had the data, disclosed the whole lot to the FIA and so got a far more lenient sentence, in this case Renault have fessed up before the first hearing and sacked 2 of the instigators.
It will not be a surprise if they get a small fine or meaningless disqualification nor will it necessarily be that unfair.
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I think Eddie Jordan owes Nelson Piquet Jr an apology for the comments he made about him before Briatore and Symonds resigned. He put the blame firmly and solely on Piquet's shoulders and accused him of being irresponsible, dangerous etc. Now that it seems obvious that Briatore and co instigated this plot and ordered Piquet Jr to do it, how did Irvine expect a young employee working under a Mafioso-type boss to say no? I think Jordan's comments were highly irresponsible and unfair, or maybe he's just supporting the old boys clubs of team owners. I would hope to see an apology from Jordan to Piquet Jr on the next Grand Prix programme, but I seriously doubt it will be forthcoming.
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To the people saying this crash is just like other crashes in the past which went "unpunished" (not entirely - Schumacher's whole season was erased because of the attempt to hit Villeneuve in '97 which was barely anything like a crash, just a nudge): The allegation here is that a crash was caused in order to bring out the safety car. By definition, this means that the crash needed to be dangerous enough that full-speed racing would be immediately halted through the entire circuit. That's entirely different from driving someone off the road, where the intention is simply to prevent that car from being able to continue the race. And any such crash will necessarily lead to pieces of the car flying off - we've seen from Massa that even a spring can nearly kill someone wearing a strong helmet - what of spectators, marshalls and other drivers?
If a team has set about to get this to happen, then I don't see how they can be allowed to continue in F1 at all. Assume they were allowed to carry on - then it's a green light for other teams to do the same. Simply get a fall guy to say "It was all me, me, and no one else", and then if it gets found out, fire him and carry on as before with a new fall guy. Given the committed and successful march to improved safely since Senna, any team which could conspire to derail this cannot be permitted in F1.
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@220 - We'll never know what actually happened. Symonds' testimony apparently says the idea was Piquet Jr's. One person's word against another. I guess I am disappoined that this happened, but sadly nothing in F1 surprises me any more!
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Ok, so race "fixing" clearly isn't good. However, it's one race. Just one. It's not like Alonso is going to win the world crown this year because of it.
Michael Schumacher taking Damon Hill out to take the world crown was far far worse, BUT...Was anyone sacked? No. Did anyone leave the sport? No. Was Schumacher's reputation tainted? Not really.
It's just another issue in this year and last years F1 circus.
Get over it, is what I say.
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220#.. Are you suggesting that Jordan is wrong to say that NP Jnr was irresponsible and dangerous? He has since gone on to say the same of the two who have resigned. If you'd been on the track with NP, how do you think you'd feel now? How would you feel if you'd witnessed a piece of NP's car come flying off and kill another driver, and now find out it was all due to skewing the result? I think it is wrong to underestimate the gravity of this offence, there was far more good luck than good judgement involved here.
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So what's all the fuss about? OK the team told Piquet to do it, but it wasn't them that actually did the deed. What is this guy Piquet, a lemming? Or is he that stupid he can't make up his own mind? I trust that Piquet will never be allowed to race again. FIA - answers on a postcard please...
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Nelson Jnr should not be able to hide behind a Nurnberg defence. He should be banned from motorsport for say 3 years for beign complicit...
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It seems whatever happens in formula one the punishment never fits the crime. If at all. take last years Maclaren,.verdict as apposed to Renault's verdict ., totally different punishment for the same, same. F1, Mosley. Ecclestone,. All lording it over there golden goose.
Is there no justice that is deemed Fair. We have the extreme rich protecting there money generator,. All's fair in love and war. it will be interesting to see what Formula 1 politicians come up with!
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Piquet Jr should have agreed to crash but not crashed and reported Pat and Flavio to the FIA after the race if he had evidence of a radio transmission urging him to put in the barrier during the race. Crashing is inexcusable for the young man but I have suspected he was not given a fair treatment during his time at Renault. What is intriguing is the political agility of Piquet Snr. During his racing career he was known as a fast driver and someone who has good political skills and it is evident with crash gate. The only way Piquet Jr can drive in F1 again is if his Dad buys a team and he gets in that way........
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The reactions seem all to be a bit hyper to me. Are you all saying that racing car drivers have never cheated in the past? Of course they have, as another poster has pointed out. They're all always at bending the rules or stretching the truth, or basically bashing into the other guy to try and gain some unfair advantage. Just watch the touring car championships: high-performance cars driven by lunatics who'd happily see each other in a wall to win the race - but nobody has broken any law. Probably in the eyes of most people in motor-racing they are most guilty of being caught!
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Few things here (and yes you'll probably disagree with something):
- The blame is on Briatore & Symonds as much as it is on Piquet but ultimately (because he was sacked) it was the later that came clear so the Renault team is to take the fall.
- The incident is as bad as McLaren spygate, and I don’t care if F1 cant afford to loose Renault in the short run; look at the long run. F1 needs consistent rules and punishment so they deserve a severe fine and taken out of the 2009 championship. Maybe Renault will leave and maybe they cant be replaced in the next two years but if rules are clear and the sport is clean, bigger names will be drawn to the sport.
- I pity Irvine, just because things were fkup in his time it doesn’t need to be like that now, grow a brain Irvine. (Otherwise we would still have rampant slavery in the world)
- Piquet Jr. has no future in F1, regardless of this issue; his driving skills weren't even close to his fathers or to any of the other new drivers.
- The 2008 championship is closed, Ferrari wont get it back, but yes probably Renault stole it from them.
-Finally, off-topic, please respect F1 traditional venues!!!
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Serena is going to so pee-d off that this has taken her out of the headlines!
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I agree with Illegalpaul (post 231) on this one.
While it is an audacious plot and I didn't believe a word of it when Piquet originaly made these allegations, you've got to take your hat off to the team for pulling it off(if they did)!
And those people who say that someone could've got killed, that's a weak argument. The cars are so safe now and it was a relatively slow, controlled crash with concrete barriers all around. No-one complains when you see drivers doing intentional do-nuts at Goodwood or on their homecoming in Ovideo with loads of spectators and lesser barriers. These drivers know what they're doing.
And while we're on the subject of the Ovideo driver, there is absolutely no way he knew nothing about this crash plot. Maybe not before or while it happened. But to suggest that he didn't wander up to Piquet after the race and ask what happened to cause him to crash, and that Piquet would have said "Oh you know me, I'm such a clutz!" without looking for some kind of appreciation from his team-maate, seems ridiculous! However this does not mean that I think the Ovideo driver should be punished... Those culpable have already admitted their guilt.
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All good stuff and hopefully he will pull out of QPR!!
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Andrew Benson, so, you've been covering F1 for over 16 years? I'm sure if you were to tell us the truth (I believe Eddie) about what teams really get up to you'll never work as a journalist again!
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dear oh dear. I find it highly amusing that fans are getting so bent out of shape over this episode. Are fans so naive to think that F1 is squeaky clean? cheating and underhanded tactics have been going on in F1 for decades. Renault have just been unfortunate enough to get caught, just as Mclaren did. In this instance the surprise factor is Piquet Blowing the whistle, which quite frankly was a stupid move. Briatore and symmonds are simply scape goats for Renault. Benneton, Mclaren, Ferrari, Williams have cheated in the past, along with the drivers. Look at benneton's illegal traction control and tampered fuel rigs as an example. As for purposely crashing, it was a slow speed corner, flanked by high walls and fences either side. Aside from the risk to Piquet himself, I don't see the big deal. Senna did this on more than one occassion, suzuka 1990 for example. Shui's Monaco stunt another example. The f1a will over react as they did with Mclaren, since they have to be seen to be tough, but Im sure truthfully none of the other teams are that surprised about this. As usual the media are turning it into a circus. At least Irvine, as always, speaks the truth without the sugar coating. Damon Hill too, all be it in his much more gentle and politiclaly correct manner.
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Minimum punishment for Renault removal from the constructors championship. Maximum, suspension for the rest of the season. It could be that a suspension for the rest of the season would trigger Renault's exit from F1. Would that matter?
With the sale of BMW Sauber the FIA are already trying to get the team to accept an additional entry for next season. Prodrive are still waiting in the wings, as far as I'm aware, so losing Renault would not matter from a number of cars point of view. What might matter is the engines, but I dare say RBR would have an alternative view on that. So in the end if Renault go who cares?
The teams in F1 have always been fluid, it goes with the territory. Recently we've had a relatively stable period but change isn't necessarily bad.
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Storm in a tea-cup. Teams have always bent the rules and this time it's a big deal because Piquet blabbed.
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234, tell that to poor Henry Surtees, killed by a detached wheel bouncing around the track? There is no such thing as a safe crash, particularly on an enclosed street circuit where the debris could end up in the path of other drivers, blowing their tyres or worse.
McLaren were thrown out of the constructors championship and fined £49 million for merely having another competitor's documents on them. Renault should be looking at far stiffer consequences than that.
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It's a shame that winning at all costs is now so commonplace in sport that cheating almost appears the norm. Just recently we've had bloodgate in rugby and the Eduardo diving situation in football. It seems morals and ethics simply don't go with sport any more.
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Am I the only one who thinks this is exciting? If F1 was just about 20 cars going around a track once every 2 weeks it would be boring. I love all the spying/cheating/controversial decisions, it makes it much more interesting.
As for the matter in hand, I do think Renault should be punished very heavily.
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F1 amazes me with new ways that it can bring up to humiliate itself.
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I have to admire how Briatore managed to pull the move off (not that I think it was alright). My personal opinion is that many people are overeacting to the situation. Yes, Renault as a team 'cheated' but I don't think removing them from the Championship and Formula One in general is going to help anything. Nor do I think it is a fair punishment.
From what Piquet Jr has said, he was asked to crash at a particular point on the track. The crash itself was relatively slow speed. My guesses are that whilst acting dishonourably, Briatore and Symonds chose that particular corner for its slow speed, high walls and catch fencing. I think Piquet Jr is responsible for putting his own life at danger if anyone is to blame. It was inevitable that given the nature of the track, that any crash would bring out the safety car no matter how minor. It is very similar to Monaco in that respect. I don't actually see this as that big a deal. Yes they plotted to alter the race but I this hardly merits expulsion from the current championship, let alone Formula One in general.
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Second attempt after BBC sensorship.
The team is allowed to enter the championship to "race" not to endanger others just to gain prestige and points.
If this is the sort of morality and sense of fair play that is all that is left in professional spectator sports (where those supposed to be looking after their athletes, drivers etc. are placing them in danger not doing all in their powers to safeguard them) then this will spell the end of them.
I don't see how some can call this exciting, it's like diving in football, it ain't nice and it needs to be stopped. The murky machinations of Ecclestone and that which he and Max allowed Bennetton/Schumacher to get away with needs stopping once-and-for-all, to clean up the sport for good.
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This is without doubt, the most serious matter ever to hit F1 and must be delat with severly. That is not to say the whole team should suffer because too many jobs are at risk and totally innocent people would suffer for the misdemeaners of a few. However, there is no way that Briatore, symonds and Piquet were the only ones to know of what happened. Yes, they were the instigators but others must have known and kept their mouths shut. Several memmers of other teams questioned why Alonso was short fuelled when he was 15th on the grid? No sense there. Who had access to the telemetry that would clearly show something amiss? Lots of questions.
No wonder Ferrari are keeping their drivers options open!
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Have to agree with shaleen778. We had two terrific seasons in 2007 and 2008, and 2009 looks like being another taut and tense one, so it's simply mind-boggling that the sport should continually drag itself down with scandals, spying, cheating, rumours and rushes of blood to the head from the leadership. I'm a lifelong fan but it's wearing thin. I was so looking forward to going back to Montreal next year, but this sort of stuff drives me nuts.
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A column in Autosport today, which I agree with, says this isn't race fixing, simply pulling a fast one in order to win. Looking at it like that, there have been many similar crimes in the past, all of which have gone unpunished. It's quite similar to asking a team-mate to take out a title rival, so you can gain points on him.
However, Renault are on charges of race-fixing, not dangerous conduct, so I can't see them been particularly badly punished. Of course, the should be on a charge of dangerous conduct, which they've already been punished for at Hungary this year.
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"a team that was prepared to put at risk their driver's safety - and that of his competitors, marshals and the spectators at the race - in an attempt to engineer a better result for another driver"
Sure thing, and why not say it endangered people watching on TV too in case they had a heart attack? Eddie Irvine is spot-on and Piquet Jr knows exactly how and where to crash so that it won't put anybody in danger and might even save the lives of a few insects that would have been splattered on the front of the car. If F1 is in the entertainment biz then the politics and the ego-battles are easily as much fun as the racing so don't go po-faced about this...
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Renault should be expelled from F1 forthwith. This charge is appalling and in no way can be compared with the two Maclaren misdemeanors. In any case if they are not expelled I would be amazed if Renault did not withdraw the team at the end of the year for bringing their name in to disrepute.
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Asking Piquet Jr. to crash? what was the need....with his 'talent and skill' he would have crashed anyway....
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Renault brought their name into disrepute far more effectively with their tyre pressure sensing system that shows spurious faults so frequently on my Laguna and other road cars they make.
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When this was mentioned during Monza, I thought this can't of happened (being told to crash) if you think about it, it costs money to make the cars and costs money to repair them. But now that it might be true it's really shocking... I truly cannot believe it, but also being told that if you don't do this we'll end your contract... then you have no choice but to if you want to stay on. But I don't think Renault would be kicked out but maybe be told to pay a fine but who knows. All I know is they risked drivers out there and other people, and I hope this will make other teams not to do the same but I don't think they will anyway.
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First of all, the style with which Briatore bowed out is not in question. The loss of style came an awful lot earlier (the man looks like he dresses in the dark, for god's sake!) Find yourself a literate sub!
As to the brouhaha itself, the spectacle of Formula 1's New Moral Army standing up on its dainty little feet to whine once more about the fall of the sport is a repeating joke that I would have thought might have got tired by now. "The worst cheating .... since time immemorial" ... have you ever read such inanities.
If you have ever believed that F1 was a sport in the Olympic sense of the word, a fair contest between pure-hearted Lancelots, blah, blah ... then there should be a law protecting you from the pitfalls of this world of ours, because you are a gullible plonker.
Bless Eddie Irvine for reminding us of why we really love F1. It's an all out Hobbesian war: of every man against every other, no holds barred, pitting the finest technical, political, physical specimen against one another. In other words a sanctuary from the Disneyfied hypocrisy of our everyday world, where every sporstman is "a role model" and every victory rewarded with a gong from Queenie. As if?!
If only these pathetic media wallies could let F1 be what it is, a real game for big people, and put their political correctness in their sanctimonious pocket ... just once!
Of course it's the same media wallies who seem to actually believe the words "precision bombing" and thought the WMDs were just where Tony said they were ... Bon &*%$£! Soir!
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Fantastic stuff......drivers crashing deliberately, whats the problem? Lets have more, except make them high-speed and multiple. Admit it, it's what most people watch motorsport to see. How about a rogue team in matt black cars with stig-type black helmeted mystery drivers who are allowed to 'have a crack' at the other teams cars as they pass? Ben Hur scythes on the wheels? Watch the audience figures rocket!
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Has anyone read that stuff from Irvine? what an idiot! 'A crusade by the FIA' 'alls fair in war'....sorry this is the pinnacle of motorsport, not go karting on a thursday afternoon! This is absurd, sure cheating and scandals happened in the past, but gone are the days of tobacco sponsorship, and the seedy image of F1's 'glamour', the new F1 is trying to be clean, why on earth would brands from the new world & technology industries want to be associated with a sport that allows cheating & scandals to go unpunished when they can pay cheaper prices in sports like football, cricket & across the pond, on the NFL, baseball, basketball & ice hockey...all sports with old testament approaches to cheats!
I think Eddie Irvine should be sectioned if he thinks the FIA should 'down play' the cheating scandal, and that the Renault did nothing unseen before! If they are found guilty, as mentioned before...how much has this unbalanced F1? Safety of motor racing? reputations of established name in the sport? I sympathise with the FIA nowadays with their approach to investigations, since the Belgian GP last year, they have changed their stance on things like scrutineering & releases from race race officials, I thought the fine on McLaren was insane, but I really do feel that the FIA need to keep going in order to clean the sport of it's past, don't get me wrong, the racing of yesteryear was interesting and so were the scandals, but in the modern day, it can't happen in F1, it's irresponsible to the stability of the sport for this sort of thing to go unpunished!
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...as I see it.
Of the three protagonists only Briatore actually denies being party to the plot. The other two blame each other for originating the idea, but admit that a meeting or meetings took place at which the plot was discussed. Briatore admits attending a meeting but says that a plot was not discussed. Thus the three are at loggerheads and Renault could not stand by their team managers.
I can recall only one previous instance where anyone caused a crash in a premeditated way and admitted to the deed after the event. (Senna taking out Prost). The current scandal is entirely different. Two or more persons plotted to deliberately crash an F1 car – prior to the race, and during the race the crash duly happened.
This scandal is much worse than anything previous. It was clearly a plan to deliberately crash a racing car. Executing the plan placed competitors, track workers, and spectators at an unnecessary and unforeseen risk. The details of who knew what, and when they knew it does nothing to alter the unnecessary and unforeseen risk.
At the very least one senior person had the opportunity to stop the planned crash from happening – they failed to do so.
It is hard to imagine any insurance underwriter being particularly relaxed about the notion of the deliberate crashing of a racing car – even in the context of public liability for a race meeting, let alone personal insurance for track workers, drivers, etc.
…so what should have happened ?
Whichever of the three protagonists dreamt this up should have been (and could have been) shopped by at least one of the others. In the wider context, the whistle blower(s) may have emerged with their motor sport working life intact. As it is ….... that is likely gone for all of them now.
….so what should the FIA do?
1)Life long ban from all FIA sanctioned motor sport activity for all three.
2)A fine for Renault which reflects the seriousness of the charge and the precedent set in the McLaren case – say $200 million.
…..so what will happen ?
Judging by the consistency and level of previous dealings with Renault ….. not much !
STOP IT MATRON PLEASE ….. oh it's all been a horrible dream.
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222 - You say that Symonds stating it was Piquet's idea is just 'one man's word against another'. I think you miss the point.
Symonds could have lied about the whole thing, or parts of it. He chose not to - to either tell the truth, or refuse to answer. Why then should he choose to lie about a mere detail - that it was Piquet's idea in the first place? Not credible.It would have been Piquet Snr's idea (junior couldn't even work out what lap he was on), and then they got imunity and dumped Renault in it out of Pique.
And the point made above about Alonso - that he surely knew after though not before the event - I'd agree with, but what's he supposed to do then? He can't undo it, and running to the FIA telling them would have got him as much stick as plaudits - in fact more, given his history. What he did do was decide to leave the team (if he hadn't already). And what if he couldn't prove it anyway? He'd look ridiculous.
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after reading a few more of these posts, it's apparant that there is a divide on the sort of punishment to be handed out if this is true, obviously the FIA already have guidelines on such a thing, but realistically, to those of you who say that Renault shouldn't be kicked out of F1 because it would hurt F1 too much to kick them out, and they may leave if the charges are too heavy, let's face it...Renault probably will leave the sport unless the Concorde agreement they signed has more heavy fines in place in the event they leave, unless they of course are banned...But the reality of it is this, the pantomine of F1 can continue without bad press or cheating, there will always be foul play of some sort and bad calls by race officials, exactly the same as in football like bad off side decisions or red cards, so why shall we say hyperthetically, in the event of a recession hitting the Premier League hard, and then say Frank Lampard were to score own goals, and be found guilty of fixing....would you expect the Chelsea boards, Premier League, FA, UEFA, FIFA all to say, "well he's Frank Lampard, he's a big name, we need him in the sport to generate money so we'll let him off lightly"? No you can't...it's not possible, and the same stance should be taken in F1 and anyone guilty of cheating in this manor!
You must have an amount of flexibility when applying laws, but you really can't expect to knot it up completely and set precedents for the future, whereby teams will push the rules further in times of hardship because of a chance they will get away with fines over expulsion because the sport won't want to deter a heavy manufacturer! A racing ban is all that is fit for the teams, regardless of who instigated it, anyone involved with covering for it is guilty!
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251. At 5:24pm on 17 Sep 2009, es_zee wrote:
'Asking Piquet Jr. to crash? what was the need....with his 'talent and skill' he would have crashed anyway....'
Ah, you're right, we've all missed the point!
Symonds wasn't telling him to crash, he was telling him FFS DON'T crash till lap 14!
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If teams were allowed to instruct their drivers to give way to each other whenever tactically beneficial to them, as used to be the norm a couple of decades ago, then we would avoid such farcical & potentially dangerous situations with drivers deliberately creshing during races.
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Michael Schumacher's antics & PR maschine had scared F1 half-to-death & when Coulthard gave way to Hakkinen in 1998 Australian Grand Prix following team orders (considered valid tactics up until then) all hell broke loose & the rule book was changed banning such manouevres.
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170. At 08:40am on 17 Sep 2009, Reyman89 wrote:
Taken from Piquet Jr's statement...
"The proposal to deliberately cause an accident was made to me shortly before the race took place, when I was summoned by Mr. Briatore and Mr. Symonds in Mr. Briatore's office"
He has clearly stated that it was these two men that proposed this scenario so why should the other 700+ staff in the Renault team be held accountable?
Yes it did endager the safety of the fans marshalls and drivers but again if it was Briatore and Symonds asking him to crash then it was them and Piquet ( For going along with it no matter what state of mind he was in ) that were doing so not the Renault team.
Piquet should be banned from going near a racing car ever again for going along with it and then only choosing to disclose the truth after his unceremonious depature from the team like a child throwing a tantrum.
I'm not defending Briatore or Symonds either as they should be similarly punished, I'm just hoping that the Renault team are not dragged into this mess on account of three individuals.
_______________________________________________________________
But as the head of the "company" if he's made a mistake he should have been thinking about his staff before doing whatever he did.
If you were running a business and, as the boss, made an "error of judgement" that lead to your company going bust, how is that any different?
For sure i feel for the people who's jobs are on the line, my mate used to work for RedBull and we were all jealous of how he got to fly around the world and live the jet set lifestyle we all dreamed about, but he was always telling us that it was a very dodgy place and there ere few staff members who lasted their lifetime in the sport.
As for the actual "crash", we can all make assumptions of what will happen, we can all make statements that this is unfair, some of you have already said that as life long fans you are disgusted and will never watch the sport again, but it really doesn't' matter what you think, all that matters is what findings they find in the meeting and what punishments are meted out to those found guilty (or, indeed, not meted out because they have been found innocent).
All that be certain is that the F1 calender will carry on as it has done so after all the other decisions made in the past, be they right or wrong in the minds of the majority or the minority.
As a proper armchair fan, I'll still be watching, after all, what else is there to do on a Sunday other than get wet mowing the lawn with a hangover from the failed bbq the night before :)
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What a load of old tosh, the whole team was in on it, all the teams are as bad as each other, well done to Briatore for standing up and being a man.
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Lets have a 'most spectacular crash' competition with each race, each team has to delegate one driver to crash as spectacularly as they can for our viewing pleasure, broken limbs gain points depending on size and breakage, fractures get half points and any driver prepared to give the ultimate in viewing pleasure, death, they get full points. wow, now I might start watching again.
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it seems to me the real dangers were to the marshalls out on the track without protection. I suggest they should form the jury and sentencing panel.
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Let this been the end of Renault and that snivelling back stabber Alonzo, besides, BMW need their slot next year.
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I'm saddened by the number of people that still think F1 is still a sport. Wake Up! It's a business! Like any business it refelects the characters of those that run it and the state it's in today tells you all you need to know about Moseley and Ecclestone. Sure in terms of marketing, branding, exposure and profitability it's a massive success. In terms of morality, honesty sportsmanship and as a sporting spectacle it's completely lost it's way. Against this background is the Renault scandal really such a surprise? Briatore and Fernando The Nonceo conform to the prevailing standards. The blame lies at the top in F1 and it's time for change.
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Ah but Yorkie, it only succeeds as a business if it retains credibility as a sport....
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266 Detinunam - 'Well done to Briatore for standing up and being a man'.
Your sporting icons would be Ben Johnson, Maradonna, Sunny Liston, Tanya Harding, Dean Richards, Hanse Cronje and anyone who's ever won the Tour de France, I presume? ;-)
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@265
but doesn't the Graham Hill moustache era draw yet more comparisons with the whacky races? Speed the footage up a bit, put some of that wild wild west piano music on in the background and, apart from dick dastardly, you've got a whole range of other drivers to fill in the blanks.
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The general opinion of the listings seems to be for a Renault ban (todays F1 listing states Renault don't think so). I totally agree with the but this ban should go deeper.
Over the last few years F1 has degenerated into the soap opera of scandal, cheating, desception and lies. Yes as some people have said this can add to the "glamour & intrigue" of F1. I believe it produces a negative perception and reputation to the sport particularily to part time fans and prospective fans.
As a long time fan I have always accepted the fact that whenever a team introduces a gain in performance all others wil copy asap. I have no problem with that. If you put your car on the grid it's there to be looked at and copied if desired.
F1 has always been and has always seen to be a sport where the cost of loosing is unacceptable to teams. However the level and seriousness of the infringments has dramatically increased over the last few years to the extent where people's safety is now at risk.
Any financial punishment handed out by the FIA has been factored in by those found guilty and merely added into the balance sheets as the price of doing business.
Mclaren were found guilty of having Ferrari info which competely turned their cars performance from nowhere to the front of the grid. McLaren being Mclaren didn't own up but were punished financially. Has that effected the team?, did it stop the Austraian incident? Max Mosely wanted them banned for 2 years as he said it would be impossible to ensure the info they had wouldn't be used on future cars.
Renault were accused of the same, what happened? Now they put a drivers life at risk along with marshals & spectators because it was felt the win was worth it. What kind of company is this?
Todays news states Renault are putting the full blame on Briatore and Symonds. Nothing to do with Renault. Who employed these people in the first place and who did they both represent?
As a side note I still find it hard to accept that Pat Symonds would do such a thing, I've always had the greatest respect for him. Nothing woud surprise me as to the integrity of Briatore.
Ths FIA must use this latest disgrace as a means to clean house. A message must be sent to all teams that the limit has been past where competitive desires give teams the right to win at all costs.
Renault must be banned from ALL motorsport immediately, what this implication means to other teams like BMW, Toyota etc is of no concern. Their corporate decisions to stay or go is their choice. Do they want to be associated with a sport as it is at the moment or one that wins back its credability. For the good of F1 and in an attempt to regain some credability heads must roll.
At the moment F1 has decined in stature to the Tour-de-France grug taking fiasco. It must change no matter what the cost.
I disagree strongy with anyone who says "I've watched F1 for 30 years but no longer". Thats the people who should remain loyal in order for this current situation to change. All fans must say enough is enough and demand changes from within.
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I'm sure there is more to it than the public knows ... It is very difficult no for Renault to pull out as there decision to do so will always be linked to "SingaGate".
This is an action by two individuals, a solo action that is totally unacceptable, but certainly not unique. What is interesting though is why these two decided to sack Piquet at this stage of the championship !? Were they calling his bluff ...? Piquet Jr. certainly is the weakest link here ... he should have refused to do what he did if he was "the man" he now pretents to be ! Briatore's power goes far beyond that of the two Nelson's !
To recap: is this bad for F1; I do not think so ... people forget things easily, ... like: what is really behind Timo Glock (known as "the moving chicane") simply allowing Hamilton to pass, 500 meters before the finish line in Brazilian GP ... !?! ... what's new !
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Whatever the punishment, and whoever is punished, the main culprit is Piquet. He was the driver, and it is he who did the act.
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A lot of this arises because of F1's refusal to let teams race AS A TEAM. If they want driver A to win, I see no problem in them instructing driver B to slow down and let him pass.
Those placing bets on the race who moan about it should take it into account before placing their wager.
The Renault saga is of course at a totally different level, of a team member influencing the actions of other teams in the race...but is that any different from a driver going a few tenths a second slower to create traffic so his team mate can build up a lead?
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Yorkie - You are right in that it's a team event, but the changes were brought in because of the fans' anger at Rubens being made to let Michael pass on the line. You can't condemn the organisers for wanting to please the fans! The reality now is you can race as a team, so long as you don't P-off the fans doing it, which seems a fair compromise to me.
And while you have to feel sorry for the Renault employees, I find it odd that people who in one breath say 'this is a business not a sport' in the next say 'let them off for the employees sake'. You work for a company, the bosses screw up, you lose your job. That's how business works.
Besides, if you let this go races in the future will be 90% behind the safety car as teams fight to employ the best crashers to manipulate their pit stops. No wonder Ferrari want 3 cars - come back Badoer, we need you!
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People like Briatore are totally self-serving and don't really have anything to do with motor racing, or indeed sport of any kind. Check out his history prior to his involvement in motorsport. Hmmm. His time with motor-racing has been filled with controversy; there are several previous situations that mirror the current one (and the circumstances of 1994 alarmingly and tragically exceed it).
There's a saying: "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...".
As a 40 year fan of (and occasional participant in) motorsport the apparent fall of Briatore is one of the best things that could happen to the sport.
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I am pretty sure that Alonso would have been aware of what was going on in Singapore last year, he was one of those involved in the Ferrari/McLaren Spygate incident in 2007 - he must be teflon coated, because he seems to get away with it each time.
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Theres been plenty of occasions where teams have manipulated races to favour their "#1" driver. Look at Schumacher and Ferrari. The only real fix to it is to run 1 car per team. That would kill the constructors championship though.
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The irony of the race fixing allegations surrounding the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix is that Fernando Alonso probably should not have been awarded the win because he completely cut a left hand corner at the start of the race which gained him a place he didn’t appear to give back. To my knowledge there was no comment at the time because the incident occurred near the back of the grid. Compare this with what happened to Lewis Hamilton at the Belgian Grand Prix. He won the race but was later judged to have gained an unfair advantage by cutting a chicane when he used a tarmac run off area to avoid hitting Kimi Räikkönen. Even though he gave the place back he was given a 25 second penalty which dropped Lewis to third. A similar penalty for Fernando would have relegated him to 9th place.
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@205 QuicketthanMansell
@283 littlemissbutton
I'm sure Alonso had no idea at the time.
He's probably ashamed by the whole fiasco, but what can he do about it now?
Even with the crash there was no guarantee that he would win the race, so
who would have predicted Massa's mishap in the pits?
who would have predicted Raikkonen winning the F1 title in 2007 on the last race?
who would have predicted Hamilton's mysterious engine cut out in the last race of 2007?
who would have predicted Glock's spin on the last corner to hand Hamilton victory over Massa by one point?
It's the Truman Show, and Bernie is in his control tower - that's how.
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Well, with Flav no longer at the races QPR's matches should be fun this season. What price a well-timed floodlight failure whenever they're losing with 2 minutes to go...
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Lots of comments so far on Briatore and Renault. My penny's worth to add.
Many of the racing drivers have agents to look after their interests including negotiating their contracts with the racing teams. Fair enough. But it has always struck me as odd, given the potential for mixed allegiances, for Briatore who ran one racing team to be managing drivers driving for competing racing teams. I know that Briatore has built his fortune on getting commissions wherever he could, e.g. getting commissions from competing Benetton franchises when he was in charge of allocating Benetton franchises in the USA, and getting commissions for supplying Renault engines through his company Supertec to racing teams who were forbidden to buy direct from Renault, but the drivers agent arrangement I think is a commission too far. I hope that when the FIA considers sanctions against Briatore for the latest 'fault' (as Renault describe this affair) they will bar Briatore from acting as agent for any drivers in F1.
One assumes that Renault are likely to receive some punishment for the 'faults', but one hopes that as a company they will be given the chance to carry on in the future, with perhaps Alain Prost in charge.
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Where has all the common sense gone??
The Fia didn't do anything to the late Ayrton Senna when he crashed into Alain Prost on purpose?
Or to Micheal Schumacher when he hit Damon Hill?
It appears to be sour grapes from the Piquets because he wasn't fast enough!
If he was a better driver the team wouldn't have been favouring Alonso so much.If he didn't like what they alledgedly asked him to do he should have refused?
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LiamBooth89- How dare you suggest that Ferrari have ever been involved in anything shady or underhand.Wee Bernie Ecclestone would take a hairy fit if he believed that anyone even suggested that his beloved Ferrari were capable of such a thing.
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Here's a link with all the pdf files containing the FIA's data. Pretty compelling to show Flav and Pat cooked this up.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/renault/6197791/Renault-F1-Singapore-Grand-Prix-crash-FIA-evidence.html
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Thanks Dean - 291. I particularly like this bit from Flav's letter to Piquet Senior.
"I can certainly not accept your contention that the Renault
Team, myself, and your son entered into some sort of conspiracy that ... may put at risk the safety of all the contenders in the Grand Prix just to have Femando Alonso obtaining a racing advantage. I am
outraged that you could think that I .... could have any part in such a strategy that may constitute a criminal offense."
Now let's see him argue that it was no big deal and there was no danger when it goes to court lol!
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Nelsinho said: bla bla bla.
My question is: Where is the evidence?
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hey telnolies 292 - I agree - if the posters here can be bothered to read all the data - and I must admit, there is a LOT of it in those pdf files - it makes for a VERY compelling case to show the Flav and Pat cooked it up... esp the telemetry and the cockpit/pit crew transcripts.
Will be interesting at the hearing - esp since Flav and Pat are no longer associated with Renault, not sure if the FIA can really do anything at this point to Renault, since Flav and Pat are no longer associated with the team, and to Flav and Pat themselves, for the same reason. Plus its pretty clear that no one from Renault, other than the three departed employees, had any part to play in this charade.
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Oi don't know what all the fuss is about. Brilliant race strategy by Symonds, and Piquet is the perfect driver, on this occasion sacrificing his chances for his superior team mate and a win for Renault.
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Pablo 293 - where is the evidence?
Well personally I'd think the Director General of Renault publishing a statement admitting it was a bit of a pointer, but hell maybe they just wanted the free publicity....
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Hey pablo 293 - here is the link with all the evidence.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/renault/6197791/Renault-F1-Singapore-Grand-Prix-crash-FIA-evidence.html
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This is buy no means the first time drivers deliberatly crashed in a race, remember when Senna deliberatly crashed in Prost on the first bend of the first lap of the japanese GP giving him the drivers title? what penalty was given then?
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"...rocked to its core...", ho hum...
what core?
all f1 has too offer is a flabby exterior that is totaly dependant on the enigma of its pre ecclestone days.
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F1 has become the biggest joke in motor sports. Barely 20 cars on the grid. Racing in third world countries in order to sell tickets. Manufacturers and sponsors tripping over themselves trying to leave. Why? This is just another example of how Formula 1 has gone from a sport to a WWE spectacle. NASCAR used to be seen as the spectacle of racing, of not having credibility. Not any more. Even with the economic set backs, NASCAR has 43 cars on the grid, sells waaaaay more tickets in one venue than F1 can peddle in two, and still doesnt't have to put on airs proclaiming to be the best. Hell, Carl Edwards smoked Michael Schumacher at the IROC, and anyone can see in which series the racing is better. Puffed out eurofag bloated buffoons like Briatore are the reason F1 is where it is. On the way down. It has to pander to meaningless third world countries in order to say it has an audience. Face it, the manufactures know that the most important market in the world is the USA, and that's why BMW, VW and Nissan are seriously considering Nascar. Ecclestones ego needs a reality check. Maybe he should take a lesson from B. France and think about the fans.
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As a Formula 1 fan who travels the globe spending hard earned cash we should demand answers from the Monday Hearing.Eddie Irvine has blown everything out of the water by saying cheating does go on everybody bends the rules.Motor Racing is not cheap I went to Valencia this year and where you can go on a package holiday for £500 to Benidorm £1000 to see a Grand Prix for three or Four nights is par for the course.
I still maintain Alonso knew about Crashgate
Did Nelson Piquet Junior crash to save his position with Renault?
Are Briatore and Symonds guilty?
How could Briatore sack Piquet when he followed out his instructions?
As Niki Lauda has intimated this is Formula 1 creditibility blown apart. After what happened to McLaren if found guilty the minimum Renault can expect is thrown out the Construction table and Alonso suspended and lose all drivers points.We don't want cheats in sport it's the lowest of the low.I know we are all speculating but I feel a little sorry for Piquet Jnr.He had a promising career ahead of him where does he go now!
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301 - 'and Alonso suspended' ????????
What on earth for??? Now personally I doubt very much he knew a thing about it before it happened, and even those who think he did have to admit he might not have done. I'm sure piquet would have taken him down too if he could, but even he hasn't said or even implied Alonso knew - quite the opposite actually, he's said he was told nobody but the three of them must know.
Fact is, there's not a single shred of evidence he did know, so why exactly should he be suspended? Oh yes, because you don't like him. Well fair enough then, anybody else you want suspended while you're at it and I'll get Max to sort it.... ;-)
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The Renault F1 race fixing incident is yet another example of the FIA double standards. The incident in Singapore last year was in once sense exactly what Schumacher did in Monaco qualifying a few years ago. In that event MS only was put to the back of the grid although not sure Renault will get away with things so easily. There are other events such as when MS was allowed to pass Rubens at the line (Austria I think). Therefore, if Renault are punished then Ferrari should be next in the court room. My personnel feeling is that the Renault F! story was orchestrated by Max-If you carnt wine then get even
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303. At 2:29pm on 20 Sep 2009, sirKwarrine wrote:
"...yet another example of the FIA double standards." what a load of twaddle. What has this got to do with the FIA????
What is has got to do with is that imbecile Ecclestone and his random, stupid, knee jerk rule changes that force the teams to consider pushing boundaries that they (normally?) wouldn't consider...viz McLaren last year...
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BE an imbecile? Really? Then how come he has a bank balance about a zillion times greater than all of us put together? Wish I was as stupid as him!
Nobody forced Renault to do what they did. They put lives at risk, as Flav says himself in his letter to Piquet Snr., and that is why the penalty must be hefty. When drivers deliberately crashed before it couldn't be proven at the time so they got away with it, and even then there's a difference between a spur-of-the-moment decision by a driver and a pre-planned strategy by the team to fix a race by crashing a car.
Those who say let them off lightly need to stop and think what will happen to F1 if we DO in effect let teams deliberately plan crashes to gain tactical advantage in the future. It has to be stopped now, and the only way is to make the penalty for doing it and getting caught so severe that it isn't worth the risk.
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Honestly, if Piquest was the quicker driver, it would be Alonso who had to crash to support him; as we've seen upteem times that Rubens riding shotgun for Herr Schumi...
The way I see it. This is just 2 once brilliant heavies in F1 desperately try to use a loophole in the system by a very risky gambling; and it worked. But get caught eventually after being sold by a punk.
Yes, it is risky and unsporty. But those guy will do everything to win, well, to a certain degree...
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"306. At 5:36pm on 20 Sep 2009, telnolies wrote:
BE an imbecile? Really? Then how come he has a bank balance about a zillion times greater than all of us put together? Wish I was as stupid as him!"
Criminals often have more than we the honest hard working classes do.
Just because one is a businessman doesn't mean that money is obtained by fair and honest means.
Take a look at the coup Ecclestone orchestrated to get where he is now.
And money should not be used as a measure of intelligence, Paris Hilton and Jade Goody are testament to that fact.
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First, I don't think Piquet had much of a future in F1 anyway; But he's now made it worse. Who would hire him now? - Nobody.
I also believe Briatore and Symonds were the engineers of this plan. In the long run it doesn't matter who it was really, but it's a pity, because the world of Formula One has not only come crashing down on them, but on the fans too.
I suppose greedy people always want more, no matter how much they have already
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I've been a fan of F1 since James Hunt won the 76 title, I have enjoyed following this sport for a long time. I cannot get my head around the fact that 2 prominant and key figures in the renault team would put peoples lives at risk for the sake of winning. Renault had a competitive car in Singapore, it was only a mechanical problem that put Alonso so far down the grid. As far as i'm concerned, the sport does not need people like that. F1 has been dragged through the mud enough due to other scandals in the last 2 years, and this latest one really extracts the urine. I still believe there are people with integrity in the sport though, and to that end I still will be chearing on Jenson Button to end of year.
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Don't confuse "...making lot's of money for yourself..." with "...doing a proper and professional job..."
While Ecclestone has lined his pockets wonderfully well by raping F1 (and us) for years - the way F1 has evolved with him in charge leaves much to be desired. He has NOT done a good job, and I don't believe he is capable of mending the mess he has created.
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105. At 8:01pm on 16 Sep 2009, BaldFatBloke wrote:
"BUT I would certainly not be looking to Mr Ecclestone to put the sport in order..."
the only reason F1 is in the state it is in is because that oik Ecclestone. I don't condone what Briatore did in any way, but considering the intense pressure he was under to produce results in Ecclestones random farce / high speed proccesion, he pushed the boundaries a little too far.
Nobody here is questioning why Ecclestone has had so much freedom to make such a big mess of F1 in the first place.
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Spent an enjoyable friday at Goodwood watching 'men' whizz around in uprated soap boxes with cork helmets.
It focussed a couple of things for me in this most enjoyable saga.
Firstly Piquet should not be allowed anywhere near any sort of motorsport ever again, more importantly how can the FIA justify giving him immunity when he is the biggest villian in the whole thing.
If anyone who has a grudge thinks he can muck rake and not suffer himself,then that is no basis for a system of justice.
This is not to ignore the facts in this but principles of courage and honour and justice seem to be too low profile for me.
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I cannot believe what I am reading.
No team should be above the regulations and all this talk of they should not be banned as this will be bad for the sport of F1.
This is like throwing the rattle out of the pram and is childlike in behaviour.
Renault did something very bad and yes they did put lives at risk. In my eyes this is very dangerous for the sport of motor racing. possibly the worst offence to be committed in sport.
So now we hear don't ban them, well why not punish them where it will really hurt. If they leave the sport well quite simply they chose to maybe this will act as a means of a wake up call which is quite simply, no one person, team or owners are above the law. It is time to act and clean up this sport in particular which has gone from one crisis to another.
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A poor "sport" going from bad to worse.
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I can't help feeling that Briatore and Symonds gave in far too quickly. Guys like that that wouldn't give up their positions without a long and fierce battle...unless they knew something already. Maybe that Renault intend to pull out at the end of the season anyway?
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The fact that the discussions surrounding the fate of Renault are pretty much centred around the fear that they'll quit Forumla 1 if punished in any meaningful way illustrates perfectly what a farce this "sport" is.
Let's be clear here, Renault put people's lives at stake. What they did was without doubt the most irresponsible, reprehensible act of cheating I've ever heard of. It speaks volumes that it's the costs and potential loss of the team that garners the headlines rather than what should be an automatic ban or exclusion.
Max Mosely said he didn't want F1 to descend into the comical farce that is the WWF, too late Max. Eddie Irvine was spot on when he called it a spectacle rather than true racing...Formula 1 is not a sport, this is the latest illustration of that point.
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I cannot believe tht mr Horner can describe this as an "unfortunate incident" this was planned fortune cannot come in to it they FT & PS planned to change the shape and outcome of a race surely that cannot be an unfortunate incident it is cheating
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I would have expected any points to have been taken off them and no point could be won for the rest of the season. Briatore gets a life time ban, will this include his management of Alonso and Weber, Can he continue to act for them and arrive at races next year?
I wonder was there no Fine but a deal done to make sure that Renault stay in F1 for 2010??
I feel that Nelson should take Briatore to the cleaners in the courts for wreaking his racing career as that chap will not get a seat in the next couple of years in F1
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@320 Any driver who has Flavio as a manger won't have their super license renewed, and as its renewed every season if they want to race in F1 they will have to find a new manager. Nevermind the fact he is barred from attending any FIA sanctioned events... would make it very difficult for him to do his job as a manager.
I am a bit puzzled that Renault didn't get a hefty fine/ points penalty as well as their 2 year suspended ban.
I would also like to know how much they looked into any involvement of Alonso in this sorry affair, and how the FIA have cleared him of any involvement. Given his bizarre fuel strategy at the race it seems to me that he has questions to answer at least.
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HOW CAN RENAULT CARRY ON CHEATING WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES.if mclaren had been found to crash on purpose they would be thrown out .renault have been caught with mclaren information and got away with it even though mclaren had a 50million pound fine.they sent alonso out without bolting a wheel on properly and were banned for a race,which got overturned. this is something else they have got away with its not just about putting people in danger but also fixing a result.
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the renault team might have asked Piquet jnr.to crash out but it was still 100% his car so to let him away is a nonsense .anyway I doubt anybody will want to go near him now
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To paraphrase the song:
'I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours
But I think that Bernie's got a sick sense of humour
And when F1 dies I expect to find him laughing'
So it's set standard, that's one thing. It does mean now that if another team thinks this is a good idea, only the team principle and A N Other have to go... Oh hang on, isn't that what happened when McLaren got caught with Hamilton? The difference being, they didn't put anyones life at risk..
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Of course it's disgusting: risking fans'/ officials'/ marshals' lives shows an almost inhuman disregard for standards of behaviour that have nothing to do with the FIA.
However, in any sport, people always want to go that bit further than they have before and further than their competitors, Briatore and Symonds have spent decades surrounded by that culture and, like Wall Street and the City of London, we all now know where that leads us.
Yes, there has been gross personal failure, but the institutional failure to have and respect some kind of Regulator. The FIA, like the Bank of England and the FSA and the British government, could not control the individuals who were making personal squillions, just like the rotten derivative traders - and they are being found out as the business they built starts to crumble.
That - and like weak folks the world over, with Bernie E approaching his dotage and the till jammed shut, the power vacuum is being filled by that ancient breed: men whose ambitions outstrip their abilities.
Let's hope for a good end to the championship, but for next season I think I might invest in a new Scalextric and have a few chaps round for beers.
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The sport has been involved in a number of 'gates' over the past couple of years and it would seem that the popularity hasn't suffered.
There has for many years been the fights between teams, Senna running Prost off the road, fights in the pits, fights on the track.
I don't see the sport suffering just growing and growing. There will be some argument next year about a certain part of a car it just goes on.
Yes this was bad but don't worry, it's just publicity.
Ginger
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It seems to me that Briatore was doing his job as team principal.The fact that he was acting illegally is not unique. The holier than thou attitude of some is hypocracy. The fact that he has been severly punished should end the matter. The many team managers who have gone before and made similar decisions should concider them selves lucky they did not have a disgruntled fired driver out for revenge.
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I wonder if Dammon thinks a similiar message went out to Michael when he was taken out of the Grand prix in Austrailia when all he needed was just a few points and Michael needed none to win the world title? Maybe old habits die hard
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Eccleston feels the ban was too harsh? What a disgrace that man is.
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Bernie Ecclestone (aka Mr Krabs - SpongeBob devotees know exactly what I mean) is on another planet. So what's new?
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LOL!
Flavio's in the huff with Bernie, cos he didn't bail him out.
Chickens coming home to roost chaps.
One question still intrigues me however.
Why was Lie-wis Hamilton not similarly banned from the sport?
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I agree with Bernie here the ban is too harsh.
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Eccelstone is quite happy to publicly put an arm round the shoulder of his pal Briatore after being instrumental in banning him for life, knowing that life will never mean life.
You can almost hear the conversation 'Bria it had to be done for political reasons, capish. Lets go and have some Pasta and red wine and when the dust settles and peoples memories and passions wain we'll reinstate you. Year or two, max'.
Wilfully smashing up a multi million pound piece of cutting edge engineering without so much as a blink of the eye, not to mention the potential risk of injury is utterly staggering to the average person.
However Bria is always touted as someone far removed from the techinical and tactical racing area. So who was it that planted the seed in his mind and pushed him for a decision and when?
mmmm!
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In the cold light of an Arctic Winters day, I think the majority of us
are under no illusions that the sport requires more professionalism, and in consequence, integrity. Ecclestone needs to follow Moseley out of the door and the FIA badly needs an overhaul. i.e. Set out fixed penalties and get rid of this 'ad-hoc-making up the rules' as we go along.(Seemingly dependent upon politics and personality conflicts)
Formula One needs it's characters and controversy,it's part and parcel
of the 'show'. We don't want to go down the road of golf where the new breed are cardboard cut-outs, and very boring. The sport needs Briatore, Kimi Raikonnen, Lewis's excuses, etc,...and exciting races.
In the latest fiasco, Piquet, the main culprit walks free; free, from a criminal act, probably the worst in the history of the sport.Then has the nerve to start touting for another drive.Briatore and Symonds should have been 'very heavily' fined. Money is the "key". I suspect both will be back for next season with suspended sentencing.
The sport cannot take much more negativity, t.v. audiences are already falling, and sponsors don't like what they see.
As for Moseley, I trust we'll all wish him well in his retirement... November is a good month.
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New York city though the streets of Manhattan i know Bernie getting on a bit but that sounds like madness to me. How could that ever work and even if so F1 is not that big in the US to pull the money to pay to shutdown the worlds biggest financial centre for a weekend. Why can't he make a deal with Indy people?
I guesting because they want to actually make a profit on the race and not just use it for a ego stroking like most of the races like in Dubai and most of the Asian and European races. And as we all know only certain of few people linked to Bernie can make a profit from F1.
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Why should Bernie Ecclestone or anyone defend Flavio Briatore? Briatore knew full well what he was doing and he should accept his punishment and get out of sport altogether if he thinks that's the way to carry on.
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Crooks the lot of em.
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"Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone says he thinks Flavio Briatore's indefinite ban for race-fixing is too severe."
And this comes from one of the most despicable, devious cretins in F1...the ban is just desert for the crime, and Bernie must have his fingers in one of Flavio's pies to come out with tripe like that. I suspect that Bernie was pivotal in the fixing scandal somewhere along the line - time for Bernie to be investigated...
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I can't help but notice that Fernando Alonso is the only name that has been linked to the two biggest scandals of F1 of the last years... first McClaren, now with Renault... and he always walks out of it in one piece...
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i hope this means that all the fans that give hamilton stick for the alonso incident stop now surely its no coincedience that he was involved in the two biggest scandals off recent years
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how can Eccelstone and the FIA sleep at night
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Renault and Ferrari are like the Man utd's and Chelsea of this world is allow to get away with blue murder in their sports i wonder if Eccelstone and FIA ever feel guilty for what they doing to F1!
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Yarnold04 you are 100% right aobut Alonso who walks out of it in one piece
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I would like to make an observation.
Briatore was both Piquets manager and team boss, is this not a conflict of interest? 'Fox guarding the hen house.'
This being the case Piquets postion is difficult at best under the scenario played out at the Singapore 2008 grand prix.
I mam not condoning what Piquet did, however I am sympathetic to his circumstance.
I would argue there is value in ensuring any team boss is not allowed to represent drivers in any way or form in the future.
Just a thought.
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