The Bush regime claims that North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya
and Cuba are part of an "axis of evil". In a remarkable
two-part travelogue, reporter Ben Anderson, armed with a hidden
camera and a tourist map, visits all six rogue states and tries
to find the reality of life in some of the most repressive regimes
in the world. He spoke to us about this unusual vacation.
INTERVIEW
BBC Four: What possessed you to embark on such a potentially
dangerous trip?
Ben Anderson: The idea evolved after the second Axis of Evil
speech when they added Syria, Libya and Cuba to the list. There's
no evidence so far to link the six countries and not one of them
is linked to 11 September. When you say axis it suggests some kind
of link and the only thing we found was that you could travel to
all six countries on a tourist visa. So that's what we decided to
do. We were looking for links.
BBC Four: Having been to all these countries, what is your
take on the Axis of Evil?
BA: It's an absolute joke. In some places, Iran for example,
it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. You've got a tiny group
of people there, Ayatollah Khomeini's old guard, who control the
military, the police and the law courts but are hated by at least
90% of the population.
| Most people would
love to see these guys go but then George Bush starts saying,
"Iran is evil and sponsors terrorism". That old guard
can say they were right all along, you can't have dialogue with
America, they're imperialist, come with us, fight imperialism.
They have actually gained a bit of support. |
 |
Wish you were here...? |
BBC Four: How did the tourism differ in each country?
BA: In North Korea, Iraq and Libya we had to have a government
appointed minder with us. And in Syria we had to have a minder for
most of the places we visited. These countries are so desperate,
especially North Korea. They think if North and South Korea were
reunified then South Korea would love the Great and Dear Leaders
as much as they do. It doesn't occur to them that their leaders
might be exposed as liars.
BBC Four: Although the Dear Leader Kim Jong-il seems well
aware of this...
BA: That was really my final thought. There's no way he can
be interested in reunification. Him and his tiny group are the only
ones who have access to the Internet and satellite TV and there
aren't many that get to travel outside of North Korea. I'm certain
that he realises that if doors were opened or even if satellite
TV was allowed then they'd realise they were being lied to. It's
estimated that the Great Famine in North Korea killed between three
and four million people. They think it's even worse in the rest
of the world. We spoke to some refugees who said that as soon as
they hit China and saw these market stalls full of food they realised
they'd been lied to.
BBC Four: How did the countries meet your preconceptions
or expectations?
BA: A lot of them were more pleasant than I thought. In North
Korea the plan was to not push our luck too much at first and pretend
we believed everything we were told. By the end of the tour we'd
confront them and say, "I've read books, not just by Americans,
but by Russian and Chinese historians as well.
| I know you're lying.
I know there are prison camps." But we got on so well and
they were so open to discuss things with us. You couldn't make
them budge an inch but they were willing to debate it with you.
|
|
North Korea is full of monumental surprises |
BBC Four: There's a lovely bit in the first episode where
the North Korean guide admits to liking Jane Eyre...
BA: That was a real surprise. What changed it was when she
talks about the American singer she quite likes whose name beings
with E. At that moment I thought these aren't the people we expected
to be dealing with.
BBC Four: Do you feel any optimism about the fate of North
and South Korea?
BA: No. What's incredible about North and South Korea is
the anti-Americanism is almost as rampant in the South as it is
in the North, certainly in the younger generation. When we were
there two girls were run over by an American tank and the South
Koreans were convinced that the Americans did it on purpose. Thousands
of people demonstrated outside the US Embassy. Both North and South
live for nothing else but reunification. Both sides think that it
is being blocked by the US military. I really can't see it being
unified while Kim Jong-il is in power and there is an American military
presence. The American and North Korean soldiers hate each other
too much. But the Americans have said that even if there was reunification
the troops would stay there anyway because it offers access via
land to Russia and China so strategically it's very important.
BBC Four: Which country caused you the most problems?
BA: Iran was the worst. I was really looking forward to Iran
because I thought I'd just spend two weeks with these young, brave
people who had parties and demonstrated against hardline religious
beliefs. But no one said a word for three or four days. I met some
students who were involved in the demonstrations in 1999 when the
police shot and killed some people. Literally five minutes before
the interview started they said, "We don't want to talk about
the demonstrations." Everyone was terrified to say a thing.
And during this interview with the students these three guys burst
in, grabbed us, searched us, emptied our pockets out and found the
tourist visas and said, "You're a journalist." They took
us back to our hotel, turned it over, found our tapes under the
bed and just went ballistic. They actually thought we were spies
and giving information to MI5. That lasted for a week.
BBC Four: They detained you?
BA: They kept us in the hotel to start with but we weren't
allowed to leave our room. The manager of the hotel felt sorry for
us and let a call from the BBC go through so we could tell them
what happened. They somehow found this out and we were imprisoned
in a strange government building almost like apartments. I had a
bed and two meals a day but every night between nine and midnight
five of them took you to a small room on the top floor and grilled
us for four or five hours. Every time you gave an answer they didn't
like they'd clench their fists and threaten prison and torture.
This went on and on for a week.
BBC Four: You went to Cuba as well. How did you find that?
BA: Cuba was another one that was completely different to
what I expected. Regardless of work I've wanted to go to Cuba for
years but it was a major disappointment. After the Soviet Union
collapsed they couldn't buy the sugar at a fixed rate every year
which was the staple of the Cuban economy. After 1989/1990 they
had to start welcoming tourists in and that's now the main income.
Everyone is desperate for dollars. Taxi drivers, barmen, porters,
the people who rent out rooms to tourists for $25 a night, those
with access to dollars can live pretty well in Cuba but if you haven't
then you're screwed. There are beggars everywhere. I just found
it very depressing.
BBC Four: What about Iraq?
BA: In Iraq even Saddam's foreign minister and deputy prime
minister have had their sons imprisoned and tortured so I do think,
when it comes down to it, he'd have almost zero support. Even those
closest to him aren't there because they love him. They're there
through fear. They're there because they've been broken. I really
think that if you went about it the right way everyone would say,
"Fine, take him, I'm not going to defend him." It's just
how you do that. In most of the cities in the south like Basra,
because they're Shiite Muslims and they hate Saddam, they've tried
to get rid of him. In 1991 Bush Senior said, "Rise up and get
rid of Saddam". So they did and took seven cities in the south.
Then Bush and the State Department suddenly thought, these are Shiite
Muslims and if they take over they could team up with Iran and be
anti-American and we won't get any oil and so on. So they let Saddam
crush it and 30,000 people were killed by the end of that.
BBC Four: What was your sense in Iraq of there being another
war?
BA: They're all certain it's coming. Everyone we spoke to,
and we didn't speak to that many people, thinks it's about oil.
There's no way they think democracy is going to be brought to Iraq
and they'll get to choose the direction their country goes in.
BBC Four: Which was your favourite Axis of Evil country?
BA: I'm not sure I'd be that keen to go back to any of them.
You could have a holiday in Cuba but I wouldn't recommend any of
the others as a holiday destination. Libya was good fun. Syria was
nice because I was expecting to go there and be really depressed
and meet people who were really committed to a fight to the death
until Israel no longer exists. And everyone I spoke to including
the Grand Mufti and the Grand Mufti's son said they would live peacefully
alongside Israel if they could just return to the Golan Heights,
the land they lost during in the 1967 war. In Iran it was so refreshing
to hear people saying what I thought were reasonable requests. I
did actually think that there is hope there.
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