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Transcript: Any Questions? 9 January 2009 |
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CHAIRMAN: JONATHAN DIMBLEBY
PANELLISTS:
TONY McNULTY MP: Minister for Employment and London
NICK HERBERT MP: Shadow Secretary of State for Justice
SARAH TEATHER MP: Liberal Democrats’ Housing spokesperson
A.N. WILSON: Author and Columnist
From the Kingsmead School, Southbury Road, Enfield, Middlesex, EN1 1YQ
DIMBLEBY:
Welcome to the first Any Questions of the year. We are in the London Borough of Enfield in Middlesex. Our hosts Kingsmead School which is proud of its multicultural and inclusive ethos in a community which is made up of 87 ethnic groups. The school is judged to be outstanding by Ofsted and with a high proportion of students from socially and economically deprived backgrounds it has a fine reputation in arts, dance, drama, media and music and we are in a terrific theatre here. On our panel Tony McNulty is Minister of State for Employment in which role he attends Cabinet and is part of Gordon Brown’s road show as Ministers go round the country to find out what is going on or at least what the voters think. Nick Herbert entered the House of Commons in 2005 formerly Director of the British Field Sports Society which went on to become the Countryside Alliance he is now Shadow Secretary of Justice and is part of David Cameron’s rival road show. Sarah Teather became the youngest MP in the Commons when she won a by-election in 2003 before that she worked for Macmillan Cancer Relief. She now speaks on housing for the Liberal Democrats. A.N. Wilson is a polymathic writer the author of a host of fine biographies, about among others Jesus Christ, St Paul, Sir Walter Scott, Hilaire Belloc and Leo Tolstoy which won the Whitbread Prize. He has also written some 20 novels and children’s stories and he manages to be a columnist on the Daily Mail as well. He is the 4th member of our panel.
(APPLAUSE)
Our first question please
MICHAEL HODGE
Does the panel think that Israel is justified in ignoring UN calls for ceasefire while Hamas are still launching rockets into Israel?
DIMBLEBY
Sarah Teather
SARAH TEATHER
No I don’t think they are justified in ignoring UN calls for a ceasefire and neither do I think Hamas are justified in ignoring UN calls for a ceasefire either. I went to Gaza as part of a trip to Israel, Palestine about 9 months ago and I was absolutely appalled by the conditions there. Really terrible. The level of poverty is unimaginable. You see as you first go into Gaza, the area in the North of Gaza has been bombed to nothingness. It is wasteland and then as you drive into the city the first thing that hits you is the smell of the sewage because it lies in raw lakes on the North side of the city and we went to visit people’s homes that are as good as slums. They are huts that people are crammed into and you can’t rebuild those homes because although the UN has the money to rebuild it. Because of the siege on Gaza, Israel won’t allow construction materials to go across the border. The conditions are absolutely terrible and just for an added dose of reality as I was coming out of Gaza, our own group, a group of all Party MP’s, came under rocket fire from within Gaza as we were coming out through Arret, the North Side of the Gaza crossing and we went to visit Sderot the next day which of course is one of the towns that has been the main subject of Qassam rocket attacks for some period of time so you know my own sense having been through that experience and met people on both sides is that this is a disproportionate level of violence and that it is completely counter productive. It is never going to win the peace. All that ever is going to happen is that we are going to drive people more and more into the arms of extremists. No terrorist organisation has ever been bombed into submission. This is not going to work.
(APPLAUSE)
DIMBLEBY
So in precise answer to the question if your will was achieved the Israelis would withdraw forthwith even if the rocket attacks into Israel were to continue as a consequence.
SARAH TEATHER
Well I don’t think this is going to stop the rocket attacks. This is my point. Since they have been bombing in Gaza what have we seen well we have actually seen rocket attacks coming from Lebanon for the first time since the Lebanese War. I think in a sense we have got to learn from what happened in Lebanon which is that Hezbollah were actually strengthened. If they want to strengthen the moderates we actually need to see progress with the Annapolis peace process and unfortunately what has happened on the ground is for most Palestinians they have seen no change at all. The roadblocks are exactly the same, the crossing points are exactly the same, their sense of brutalism is exactly the same. If you want to build up the moderates you actually need to give some ground
DIMBLEBY
Nick Herbert
NICK HERBERT
Well I think there does need to be a ceasefire but I think it needs to be a durable ceasefire that is sustainable and leads ultimately to settlement and that means that it has got to be a ceasefire under which Hamas will agree to stop launching its rockets. That is why this all started in the first place. After all Israel unilaterally withdraw from Gaza three years ago. Many of us will remember the pictures on our televisions of the settlers, the Israeli settlers literally being dragged from their homes by Israeli authorities to take them out because Israel decided it wanted to advance the peace process by withdrawing and yet the rocket attacks continued and there have been 5000 rocket attacks on Israeli settlements emanating from Gaza since then and the problem has been that Hamas has had no interest in a peaceful settlement. In very striking contrast to Fatah and the PLO so I think that it is important that we don’t simply say Israel must stop. Of course we are all horrified by the violence. What matters is that there should be a durable solution and that we should ultimately see what actually the majority of the Israeli population and the Palestinian population want to see which is a two state solution and peaceful co existence.
DIMBLEBY
Where we are at the moment in relation to the UN Security Council Resolution is that the British Government and other Governments and Security Council have called for immediate ceasefire, the Americans have abstained. Are you with the Americans in favour of abstention given what you just said or are you with the majority of the Security Council?
NICK HERBERT
We have been with the British Government on this and I don’t think we would want to see any partisan divide on this at all. We want a ceasefire but it does need….
DIMBLEBY
So the Americans, you are not with the Americans?
NICK HERBERT
We want a sustainable ceasefire under which Hamas will stop firing its rockets too.
(APPLAUSE)
DIMBLEBY
Andrew Wilson
A.N. WILSON
Well we were asked is Israel justified in ignoring the UN and I think although it sounds a very pedantic thing to say it depends what you mean by justified. The leader of the Liberal Party, the Lib Dems this week wrote an article saying that the responsibility really resided with the United States who arm Israel and who supply Israel with the majority of its money and overseas aid. What he didn’t answer is really the central tragic question at the heart of this whole sorry affair. Of course I am sure everybody in this hall and everybody listening probably deplores acts of violence against civilians and against children and so forth but if the United States who abstained over this UN Resolution were to cease to send money to Israel and didn’t arm Israel do any of us really believe that would bring peace to that region. That is the tragic question because I think many of us would like to say yes we would believe that without arms to fight Hamas, Israel would live in peace with Hamas and Hamas would turn into the Society of Friends or Mahatma Gandhi but I am afraid many of us believe much as our sympathies naturally are with the Palestinians that if Israel were not armed and didn’t behave in this apparently aggressive way from time to time towards Hamas, towards Hezbollah and so on there would be a terrible danger of Syria or Iran or Hezbollah or Hamas or all of them uniting to destroy the Jewish people in Israel and that is the threat.
(APPLAUSE)
DIMBLEBY
You say that the issue centres around what you mean by justified. Given what you have just said do you believe that Israel is justified in ignoring the UN call or not?
A.N. WILSON
Well that is why I say it is a tragic question because all my sympathies as I am sure all our sympathies are with these poor Palestinian people who are stuck but if it was us, if we were Jews living in Israel now and we felt ourselves to be under threat we would consider it to be not merely strategically but morally justified to fight for our existence. We have done it in our country against enemies who have tried to bomb us into submission and they feel this and the tragic thing I think about the whole situation is that Israel and the Jewish people in the world are now feeling increasingly paranoid quite understandably the old joke is true, just because I am paranoid doesn’t mean people aren’t trying to get at you and they are isolated with only the Americans on their side and I think that is a very, very dangerous situation because in a sense although I am entirely against what Israel is doing I think that within the narrow confines of the way they look at the world they are justified in what they are doing yes.
DIMBLEBY
Tony McNulty
TONY McNULTY
Well if I go back to Michael’s question it was are both Israelis and Hamas justified in ignoring the UN resolution and I think notwithstanding what others have said I think both aren’t justified in recognizing the resolution because the resolution I think I have it in front of me picks up many of the points that have been made on both sides. It calls for immediate durable and fully respected ceasefire, unimpeded distribution of humanitarian supplies, condemns all violence, hostilities against civilians and acts of terrorism urges action on arms smuggling, opening up the Gaza crossing and Palestinian reconciliation to underpin the ceasefire and crucially calls for reinvigoration of the Middle East peace process. I think that is a way forward helped by the French and Egyptian work that is still ongoing and I think the fundamental point is simply this. There is a broad consensus about a two state solution. For a two state solution to work there must be mutual recognition of the dignity and security of each of those nations. People tell me Hamas is the elected government now of the Palestinian authority well it should start to act like it.
DIMBLEBY
Do you take the view that the Americans are weakening what you wish to see by abstaining?
TONY McNULTY
I think to be fair, that is unfair, if you look at the contribution from Condoleezza Rice during the Security Council debate she was very very close to making it absolutely unanimous
DIMBLEBY
Well it is a big difference between being very close and what according to some observers is to say to Israel you have still got a green light.
TONY McNULTY
I don’t think it does if you look at the substance of her speech it was, it was as close I think given their politics at the moment as America could go to coming with the thing and making it 15 nil on the Security Council with I think a very balanced resolution. It would have been all the better but I understand America’s position
DIMBLEBY
Sarah Teather and then A.N. Wilson
SARAH TEATHER
However depressing it is it is tantamount to giving the Israelis the green light. I think in the dying days of Bush it is the ideal time for the EU to step in. We are the major source of aid to the Palestinians and the major market for trade with Israel and I think we can use our leverage to bring about influence on both Parties and I personally think and Nick Clegg has said we should suspend the new proposed trade agreements with Israel to make it clear that we think the action is unacceptable and disproportionate. I just want to pick up one
DIMBLEBY
Pause there if you would and I am going to bring in Andrew Wilson and maybe I will let you back in after.
A.N. WILSON
The trouble is as we all know both sides feel passionately that they are in the right and both sides feel entitled to the same bits of land. I know that the tiny bit which is the Gaza strip which many of us on this panel have visited has now been vacated by Israel but it is basically an irreconcilable struggle and in answer to Mr McNulty saying they should act like the government. Everyone used to complain that Israel was the only democracy in the Middle East, they then gave democracy to the Arabs and they said in Gaza you can vote for whom you like and when they voted for Hamas the Americans and the Israelis replied oh we didn’t want that sort of democracy we didn’t want you to vote…
(APPLAUSE)
Hamas and to this extent it is I am afraid comparable to what went on in Ireland for so many y ears. Hamas just like Hezbollah in Lebanon are extremely popular. They may be horrible people, they may be gangsters but people who are in that state of despair in the Gaza strip which Sarah Teather has so vividly described do want acts of reparation and violence taken against the Israelis that is the essence of the problem
DIMBLEBY
Nick Herbert
NICK HERBERT
The territory is Hamas’s. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. So the question is why they continue to launch these rockets and Sarah talked about a
DIMBLEBY
Let Sarah just respond on that point
SARAH TEATHER
The point I wanted to get back on before you say that they withdrew from Gaza but of course they still control the air, they still control the sea and they still control all the entries by land. That is not withdrawing from Gaza. The Palestinians living in Gaza are living in abject poverty because Israel won’t allow basic humanitarian goods in and that is before they started bombing.
(APPLAUSE)
NICK HERBERT
What Israel has been concerned to do is try and stop the traffic of armed weapons into Gaza which can then be launched by Hamas on to Israeli settlements that is the Israeli concern you have to be careful about the use of this word proportionate. Would it have been a proportionate response for Israel to have launched 5000 rockets randomly into Gaza? Would that have been what you call proportionate simply because Hamas…
DIMBLEBY
You have a situation where a great many civilians and a great many children, Palestinian children have been killed and you have the United Nations saying it can’t continue with its work and you have the international committee of the Red Cross accusing the Israeli government of breaching humanitarian international law. Do you think that Israel against that background has behaved proportionately?
NICK HERBERT
That is why
DIMBLEBY
Have they behaved proportionately, have they behaved proportionately
NICK HERBERT
I don’t think this word proportionate is the right word
DIMBLEBY
You used the word
NICK HERBERT
No Sarah used the term
SARAH TEATHER
I did use it.
NICK HERBERT
I do not think that it is the right word. We all want this violence to stop. Unfortunately Hamas with the deepest cynicism actually puts weapons and so on, uses children and innocent people as human shields. That is part of the problem but there is a difference.
(APPLAUSE) There is a fundamental difference between Hamas and the Israelis. Hamas actually tries to cause civilian casualties that is what they want to do by launching the rockets (TALKING OVER EACH OTHER) minimize casualties and that is a fundamental difference in behaviour
SARAH TEATHER
This point about human shields I think is a little disingenuous. The Gaza strip is one of the most overcrowded pieces of land anywhere in the world. If you launch rockets from F16’s into a place like that it is absolutely inevitable you will kill civilians let alone the stories that we have heard from the UN or from the international Red Cross that you have already outlined. I do think that we were very remiss in withdrawing the EU monitoring of that border between Egypt because that is something that could have made a real difference
DIMBLEBY
We must move on but just briefly Minister last word
TONY McNULTY
I think the discussion has shown that we must break the circularity. Yes the Israelis did leave the Gaza strip, yes the Hamas are firing rockets in from the North of Gaza into Southern Israel yes that is why the siege followed and we can go on and on with the same circularity. We need to break through that. People are wedded to the peace process, they are wedded to the two state solution and people need to really get hold of that and use the adversity of the appalling situation at the moment to advance the peace process.
DIMBLEBY
Thank you. You may want to have your word about this. If so after the Saturday broadcast. I am sorry not at this very moment, after the Saturday broadcast (lots of hands have gone up here) after the Saturday broadcast of Any Questions ring in on this number 03700 100 444 and there is Any Answers and the email address for Any Answers is any.answers@bbc.co.uk. Our next question please.
MARTIN HEAD
Will yesterday’s cut in interest rates stimulate consumer spending or will people stash that cash in anticipation of the taxation time bomb?
DIMBLEBY
Nick Herbert
NICK HERBERT
I think the problem is that the interest rate cut so far have not had the desired effects and what business leaders were actually saying yesterday is that it is not the price of money that is the problem it is the unavailability of money or credit to businesses. That is why we have been saying that the most important thing that the government could now do is to introduce the national loans guarantee scheme and actually by enabling the underpinning of lending by banks help to rebuild confidence and get that credit moving again. That is what businesses desperately need. 1 in 3 small businesses now can’t get access to funding. I received a letter this week from a profitable business in my constituency who have just had their borrowing arrangements changed unilaterally by the bank. They are actually having to pay more for their overdraft facility which they need to trade than they were before in spite of these interest rate cuts.
DIMBLEBY
How much? Given that this is taxpayers money that would underpin these loans how much would it cost the taxpayer? How much would a conservative government make available to secure a loans guarantee scheme which would encourage or oblige the banks to cough up.
NICK HERBERT
What we have said is that the value of the guarantees would be £50 billion so an enormous sum of money that really would help get credit moving again but that isn’t £50billion that the government would have to spend because this would effectively be an insurance scheme, companies would actually be charged an amount for negotiating that insurance so it would effectively be run on a commercial basis but the government would be putting its collateral if you like behind the loan scheme to
DIMBLEBY
Basically you don’t know how much it could be it could £1 billion, £2 billion, £25 billion depending on how good the investments were that the bank was making. You don’t have a figure
NICK HERBERT
We have reason to believe that there would be a cost to the economy the important thing is to give the banks the confidence that they can lend because at the moment they don’t have the capitalization to lend themselves. We need to get credit moving again in the economy. It is the most important thing that we can do.
DIMBLEBY
Effect of the interest rate cuts Sarah Teather?
SARAH TEATHER
I think Nick is completely right here that it is not the costs of lending at the moment it is the availability so the issues about how you get banks lending again. I think the problem with the conservative party’s policy is that you are underwriting the risk but none of the benefits and that is why Vince Cable our Treasury spokesperson has been talking much more about trying to use the power that we have over banks that have been part nationalized and indeed those in which we don’t have a stake because we can use our moral pressure because there is an implicit underwriting of all of the banks. The governments has basically said that none of the banks will fail so even those like Barclays where we don’t have a stake I think there is an awful lot of influence that we can bring to bear on those banks. I mean if we are actually going to try and get consumers spending again I think the key priority is around tax cuts and deep tax cuts and particularly tax cuts for the lower and middle income earners and that way we also make the tax system fairer in the long term and I would like to see when we come out of this recession the tax system radically changed so that it is much fairer and much fairer for society as a whole.
(APPLAUSE)
DIMBLEBY
Minister will it stimulate consumer spending or will people stash the cash?
TONY McNULTY
I think it will help and some will stash it and some will spend it. I think the problem is trying to see every element of the various things that are being done for the economy all in isolation, just judging them against their own success. It is rather like and I know there are some significant people who would disagree with this the fellow from Marks & Spencer and others saying well the VAT cut didn’t work. Well it is a 13 months project it is not just the 3 or 4 months up to Christmas. It is a bit like I think getting a new car, when it runs out of petrol saying well that doesn’t work and going to buy another car. You know it is about stimulating the economy not just for the immediate week or month ahead but for the duration so I think the interest rate cut will certainly help. I think alongside the fiscal stimulus and all the other elements that are happening, including £145 for every basic tax payer, £60 to pensioners from January rather than April and others all as a sum help. I think this sort of fixation by some of the media on one or other aspect of the overall package and to be frank the domestic stuff rather than what needs to happen internationally is a little short sighted. We are doing all we can and I think as Alastair Darling said we will do all that we can and consider any good idea of which the loan guarantee scheme frankly isn’t. It is a magical scheme, it is the only loan scheme ever invented that no one is going to default on because there is no capacity in the proposals for any payment of default, it is so magical that even as the banks start lending money again no one is going to go to the banks for money they are going to go straight to this premium loan scheme whereby to make it self financing you are going to have to charge a huge premium to keep the thing self financing. It makes no sense at all and was dismissed by Patrick Minford of all people a very strange right wing economist who said it was completely for the birds and two penny ……
DIMBLEBY
Just before I go to Andrew Wilson on that particular point I put it to you in a different formulation is it cost free for certain? You know it is cost free? You haven’t put any money on it, the national loan guarantee scheme you say it is £50 billion underpinning but you appear to apply that the tax payer has no liability at the same time.
NICK HERBERT
Well we are saying that the value of it will be £50 billion but it is a guarantee scheme it is not £50 billion that the government will have to spend and I find this criticism from Tony extraordinary for two reasons. Firstly, because the government has just blown £12 billion on a VAT cut that everybody including all of these business leaders is saying was a complete waste of money and completely ineffective (APPLAUSE) in encouraging people to spend The second reason I find your criticism incredible is that it is wholly negative. What are you the government going to do to get credit moving in the economy? All the business organisations are saying that that is the most important thing that can now be done and instead you have just sat there and criticized this scheme which by the way has been welcomed by all the major business organisations including the CBI, it has been welcomed by them and you have not said what you are going to do to help get the economy moving again.
DIMBLEBY
Tony McNullty has given his position or the government’s position let me bring in Andrew Wilson. Perhaps you have a psychological sense of how you think people are likely to behave in this circumstance
A.N. WILSON
Well you mention psychological I think the 3 people on this panel, it is terrifying isn’t it ladies and gentlemen to think that these people are in charge of our money. These people (APPLAUSE). They are stark staring mad. So is the President of the United States so are all these politicians they are talking about, they regard the crisis as the unavailability of credit where have they been for the last 10 years. Credit has been pouring out to people who can’t pay money back that is the nature of the crisis we don’t want more credit. Who are the victims? (APPLAUSE) Who are the victims of this so called credit crunch? The greater number of the victims don’t live in this country it is the poor of the world who are being literally starved by the rising food prices in the early part of the year when these governments say they have got lots of money they want to pour somewhere they should be pouring it towards them instead they are pouring it towards these so called businesses who are so inefficient they need to borrow money. The other people who are the great victims include myself which is why I feel very strongly about it (LAUGH) and the majority of voters in this country which are the savers. Most people are not borrowers they are savers, we are encouraged to save, the smug leader of the conservative party the other day was saying he wanted a country of savers. He has got a country of savers but we are not going to vote for him because he wants interest rates at nil. What is going to happen to our savings if you have low interest rates? Oh for Mrs Thatcher and interest rates at 17.5% (LAUGH)
(APPLAUSE)
DIMBLEBY
Martin Head how do you answer your own question?
MARTIN HEAD
Well I am with Andrew on this one. I think I am one of the victims and I probably speak for a lot of people around the audience here. There is a lot of discussion about businesses and the credit of businesses which is important I agree but the question was about consumers and I think people are frightened and confused. People don’t look like they know what they are doing so people are just going to take that money, they are going to put it away under their beds and wait until the taxation hits us and then pay it back.
DIMBLEBY
Let me ask our audience here informally. How many of you as a result of the measures that have been taken and are now in the pipeline and the VAT cut as Tony McNullty said is a 13 month project feel inclined to spend and how many stash the cash. Stash the cash. Who feels they are more likely to spend now. Would you put your hands up? We have got some hands up. Who is more likely to stash the cash? The overwhelming majority. Who hasn’t got any cash to stash? Quite a lot of those, quite a lot of those as well.
We will go on to our next question please.
MONIQUE RICHARDS
In approximately 5 years time students like myself will be looking for jobs to start their professional careers what policies have you put in place or are looking to put in place to safeguard the future jobs based on the downturn in the employment.
DIMBLEBY
I might come back to you Monique for your view of what you hear but Tony McNulty you are the Minister with prime responsibility.
TONY McNULTY
I think it is a hugely important question because we could be forgiven for looking at everything in the immediate future within through the prism of the downturn when there will be funnily enough as Boris Johnson said in sort of a rather strange reference to Apocalypse Now when he was and here is the message “the war will be over Colonel” and we have to start to look in the 5 year horizon for new graduates of what the UK economy is going to look like in 5 years time. I think we can say fairly safely that the financial sector will be slightly different than it was before the downturn that is very very clear and if we are to get anywhere to reboost and reinvigorate the economy then I think the environment dimension low carbon economy all those sorts jobs will be hugely important, the energy sector more generally and new areas like making far greater use of the digital age, digital technology including actually dimensions around how we work not just what areas we work in you know like much more home working, much more working through the internet. Part of the difficulties over the Christmas for retail notwithstanding the downturn was that more and more people were shopping online and not going to the High Street to shop at all so we really do need to start to think what sort of skills base we need in 5 years time and I think that is happening through the universities and through the business sectors now and we really do need to seriously think about what the UK’s position in terms of the rest of Europe and the rest of the world is so that we are best placed to take advantage of what I think the question implies is going to be a very very different world in the next 5 years. Much of the key investments we are making in schools now are about looking forward to that 5/10 year horizon rather than otherwise to make sure that we have got the strongest and most skilled base of workers throughout the European Union to take advantage of precisely the sort of changes to our world that you envisage.
DIMBLEBY
Minister in relation to what you refer to as the skills base the Prime Minister the other day announced 35,000 apprenticeships. You appeared on Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman with questions about this and you were very
TONY McNULTY
I did indeed I had a wonderful time
DIMBLEBY
It was a wonderful occasion you were very candid. He asked you whether they were new or whether they were the same ones that had been announced in the 2007 Queens Speech (LAUGH) You said I think they are new. He then said are you certain? And you said no I am not, I am not certain to be perfectly honest. Are you now clear about whether they are new or whether they are old?
TONY McNULTY
I am very very clear and I was very very clear then but just shy of being 100% clear and I am afraid people might disagree with this because I am a politician. If I don’t know I say so, I was always 98% or 99% sure that they were absolutely new I had been in Manchester all day, hadn’t sent the fine print of the actual announcement although I knew it was coming and I am afraid if I don’t know 100% I say so. You know I was the first (applause) and apparently I have got form. I remember seeing on blogs that I was the first Minister to use the R word recession. Well I was in a studio with Ken Clarke who we welcome back on the front bench and I hope that happens for the conservatives and Irwin Seltzer you know a significant economist who both said there was going to be a recession I was hardly going to say I don’t think so or I don’t know and I just think actually a fit of candour and openness in politics is absolutely essential and if that is a crime well shoot me.
DIMBLEBY
As I said you expressed yourself with candour in our introduction to the reminder of that exchange and you said you are absolutely certain just to be 100% clear you are saying that they are new.
TONY McNULTY
100% brand new. 140 million above and beyond the previous announcement yes. That will stay with me for some reason I am not sure why but I will be having words with Jeremy.
DIMBLEBY
Andrew Wilson
A.N. WILSON
Well it is nice to hear the Minister for Employment saying there is a bit of candour and openness is always useful. I have heard one of the most beautiful euphemisms from his lips this evening when he has promised us much more home working which is what of course the rest of us call unemployment (laugh)
There will be 2 or 3 million home workers by the end of the year
DIMBLEBY
The minister wants to correct you. Just as we do have heavily rising unemployment what does home working in this context mean?
TONY McNULTY
I am sure Andrew knows as well as everyone else does that it is the full exploitation of the internet and broadband and those sort of elements so absolutely productive work and jobs are not necessarily involved driving a car to a place of work all the time and you can do it somewhere called home
DIMBLEBY
Thank you Andrew Wilson continue
A.N. WILSON
In other words it means nothing at all. (LAUGH) My advice, my advice to Monique and indeed anybody her age is to learn Chinese because (APPLAUSE) it is quite obvious when you hear our politicians or industrialists all the big wigs all the people running this country that they are no bloody good at it and we are going slowly inexorably down the drain and that as economies after 5the world recession is over China and India will be triumphant and we will be finished more or less so get a job in China is my advice.
DIMBLEBY
Sarah Teather
SARAH TEATHER
Well actually Tony and I were just muttering under our breath maybe you should learn Hindi or Gujarati. We both come from areas of big Gujarati constituencies I think Hindi is just as important. Parts of the question is around flexibility of education and making sure that young people are equipped regardless of what the future holds but I think there are a couple of specific things, ways in which we can use the current economic downturn to plan better for the future and I think one of the things I would have liked to see the government do is instead of spending £12.5 billion on VAT cut which I think has made no difference whatsoever we could have used that to try and boost the green economy. We could have invested that in new jobs, in insulating homes for example, insulating hospitals, a huge roll out, a massive investment in infrastructure which will create many many new jobs and many new opportunities, build many more zero carbon houses and I think we could take advantage of the current economic downturn and the drop in land prices and property prices for housing associations and councils to buy up property now and to buy up land so that we can build again that supports jobs, it supports the economy and it plans for the future. There are 1.7 million people on the housing lists for this country and all of those people are desperate for affordable social housing. Why are we not using the recession to plan for the future? And I think this is a huge opportunity. (APPLAUSE)
DIMBLEBY
Monique Richards is sitting listening intently if you were in power Nick Herbert what kind of support would you be able to give to her prospects in the future?
NICK HERBERT
We have got now the highest debt in the developed world and I think it is one of the tragedies that it is of course future generations, young people now and those in the future who will be paying for the profligacy that has got us here. They are the ones that are going to be paying with fewer opportunities that are paying now with higher unemployment and will be paying the higher taxes that are coming around the corner to pay for Gordon Brown’s spending spree and I think we have to move from an economy that has been built on debt to one that is built instead on savings. I think we have to move as a country and as a government that has lived beyond its means to one that lives within its means and I| do think that is the fundamental change that is required to have a government that understands that money does not grow on trees and it is just as people and individuals and families are having to tighten their belts so we all expect the government now to tighten its built as well and actually to live within its means. And we have to rebuild the economy on strong foundations. There has been an over reliance on the financial sector, an over reliance on housing inflation the things purported to deliver growth and yes I do think we need to see green jobs where actually investment that lags behind our peer group countries an investment in high tech and there will be fantastic opportunities in the future for young people if we can effect that structural shift in our economy but it requires having a government with the right priorities and it also requires having a government that doesn’t make absurd claims to have abolished boom and bust when in fact I regret that is exactly what has happened in the last few years.
DIMBLEBY
OK let me. Monique you said in 5 years time are you at university or are you a student at Kingsmead School? You are at Kingsmead? Do you draw any comfort form anything that you have heard.
MONIQUE RICHARDS
Yes I have
DIMBLEBY
What do you think your prospects are? When you look around, there are people losing jobs now but people say we should come thorugh this in due course etc how do you look at what it is going to be like when you have been through college after school and are looking for a job how do you sense it is going to be?
MONIQUE RICHARDS
Well that is why I was asking the question. Looking at everybody talking about recession and bankruptcy and stuff like that is what I wanted to find out what the main jobs are going to be and the most important jobs that people can benefit from but people losing jobs and stuff like that I wanted to know which like are the best things to study for the future, for students and what is going to benefit them in the long run as well.
DIMBLEBY
Do you have your own sense of what your future job might be or what you would like it to be having heard this? In what field or area?
MONIQUE RICHARDS
Accountancy, business or ICT. I am looking at ICT.
DIMBLEBY
Working at home was (LAUGH) Thank you very much for your question. We will go on to our next please.
MICHELLE KEOWN
What advice would the panel give the advertising standards authority on deciding on the likelihood of God’s existence?
DIMBLEBY
This comes in the context of an evangelical Christian group that has protested to the authority about a bus which has an atheist slogan on it. There probably is, well maybe it is agnostic well anyway “there probably is no God stop worrying and enjoy your life” was I think the phrase. Andrew Wilson author of the biography of Jesus Christ what advice would you give to the advertising standards?
A.N. WILSON
Well once upon a time I thought I was going to become a clergyman then I didn’t and I became a journalist and I used to think very often of my predecessor when I worked on the Evening Standard I used to think of a previous columnist who was a gloomy Dean of St Paul’s called Dean Ing and he used to say I thought I was going to be become a pillar of the church of England and I ended up as a column on the Evening Standard. (LAUGH) In his day he was very popular and he had a, his columns were advertised on the London buses rather like this atheist bus there was a question “Is there life after death?” and on the other side of the bus it said “ Buy tomorrow’s Evening Standard”. (LAUGH) I think they spoilt it with probably. It seemed so wet to say probably. Either be like Shelley and say the necessity of atheism and be a full-blooded atheist or say that you believe as most human beings have done in the Almighty.
DIMBLEBY
Particularly as you would say because it is from the British humanist association and amongst others Richard Dawkins who is not thought to be in any doubt about this matter
A.N. WILSON
No he is not a probably man at all but it was probably drawn up by a committee do you think?
DIMBLEBY
Sarah Teather. What advice would you give?
SARAH TEATHER
I think it would be a nightmare for them really. Theologians and philosophers have been arguing about whether or not you can ontologically if that is a word prove the existence of God for centuries and how on earth the poor Advertising Standards Society Authority are supposed to come to a view on this within a fortnight is quite beyond me. I am a little with Andrew on this. I am interested in why they decided to put the word probably in. It is as if they are trying to leave themselves wriggle room for Pascal’s wager which perhaps is a little unfair given how rude Richard Dawkins has been about Pascal’s wager in most of his books. From a basic perspective
DIMBLEBY
Do you want to remind us of Pascal’s wager for those of us who haven’t read all the
SARAH TEATHER
It is the idea that you kind of have nothing to lose and everything to gain by believing in God. And it is one of the so called proofs that is often used. I have to say I am quite pleased that we do live in a society where two sides can slog it out albeit on the side of a bus as whether or not there is or isn’t a God and that we have perfect freedom to choose. I have to say that because both sides are rather extreme I suspect it alienates the vast majority of British opinion
DIMBLEBY
I think the Director of Christian Voice along with the humanist association would not claim to be extreme but they could ring into Any Answers to explain their position. It is actually 800 buses in England, Scotland and Wales plus the underground. Minister you quite like giving advice what advice would you give the Standards Authority.
TONY McNULTY
Well the first bit of advice I would give to whoever wrote “probably” that it sort of down graded the brand a little bit I think no God, or God doesn’t exist would have been better. He was probably a Liberal Democrat I think. (LAUGH) My specific advice to the ASA would be to tell the Christian Alliance as politely, or whatever
DIMBLEBY
Christian Voice
TONY McNULTY
Christian Voice I apologise in the politest way possible to clear off because it is nothing to do with the Advertising Standards Authority…
DIMBLEBY
Steven Green. Steven Green who is National Director of Christian Voice says there is plenty of evidence for God and then he goes on very scant evidence on the other side so I think the advertisers are really going to struggle to show their claim is not an exaggeration or inaccurate as the ASA code puts it.
TONY McNULTY
That is as may be but our democracy would be rather shallower than it is in all its vibrancy if Lord knows all of us had to prove everything before we said anything so it must be right and proper in terms of free speech for the humanists to do that is that is what they have got to spend their money on and I would say to Christian Voice you know get on with propagating the religion in your own way but chill out I think really.
(APPLAUSE)
DIMBLEBY
Shadow Secretary of State for Justice where do the scales fall on this?
NICK HERBERT
I would like to know what is going to happen if the advertising standards authority rules that God doesn’t exist. Is the Archbishop of Canterbury going to resign forthwith? The Advertising Standards Authority used to have to try and adjudicate over political advertising by political parties at election times and of course parties would make claims to deal with inflation or unemployment or whatever and the ASA was called in to adjudicate on the truth of these claims well that is a pretty tall order and eventually it decided it just couldn’t do that job. I think it would be a good idea if the ASA withdrew from this theological area as well and stuck to testing whether claims like 9 out of 10 cats say or owners say their cats prefer it or whether David Beckham is wearing suitable underwear or whatever. I think they should just stick to that kind of decision really.
DIMBLEBY
Let me go back to you Michelle Keown. You have asked them what would your advice be to the advertising standards authority?
MICHELLE KEOWN
Well in the words of the great Tony Robinson from Time Team I would say absence of proof is not proof of absence. I am a firm believer in the advertising standards authority.
(laugh)
DIMBLEBY
I think we can just squeeze in one more very quickly
DAVID REEKIE
What question did you hope not to be asked tonight and why?
DIMBLEBY
Andrew Wilson
A.N. WILSON
I don’t know really but I am very glad I wasn’t asked any question about cricket because I don’t think I would have been very sensible about whether the coach or the captain was better qualified to direct the England team so I am very glad nobody mentioned that.
DIMBLEBY
Remarkably well informed that they do have coaches and captains.
A.N. WILSON
Well I know but I did play cricket at school
DIMBLEBY
Nick Herbert
NICK HERBERT
I was hoping to be asked a question about cricket I am very relieved I wasn’t asked a question about what I might have given up for the new year because I haven’t given up anything and I am also relieved there weren’t any questions about reshuffles
DIMBLEBY
In your party?
NICK HERBERT
In any Party Jonathan.
DIMBLEBY
Sarah
SARAH TEATHER
I along with Andrew was really hoping not to be asked about cricket because I don’t really understand cricket I am afraid. It has always passed me by completely. I did go an watch a cricket match once I was dragged there on a perfectly sensible Bank Holiday Monday a very sunny day when I felt I should be doing better things and I drank all of the wine and read the Guardian and I was still no nearer by the end of it as to who won the match
DIMBLEBY
Minister
TONY McNULTY
In no particular order delighted not to be asked anything about cricket, would have loved to have been asked why Nick Herbert isn’t going to be promoted in the forthcoming reshuffle I hope he is (Laugh) and I think there must be a public enquiry into why Nick Clegg failed to promote this charming lady next to me yesterday in his reshuffle.
(APPLAUSE)
DIMBLEBY
At which point we come to the end of this week’s programme. The Any Answers number just one more chance to give it to you 03700 100 444 that is after the Saturday broadcast and a moment to say that next week we are going a little bit further away from the centre of London than Enfield we are going to be in George Washington University in Washington a few days before the inauguration of Barack Obama as the next President of the United States. Hope you can join us there. (APPLAUSE)
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