BBC - Radio 4 - Transcripts

CHAIRMAN: JONATHAN DIMBLEBY

PANELLISTS:

BILL RAMMELL MP: Foreign Office Minister

ERIC PICKLES MP: Shadow Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government

ED DAVEY MP: Liberal Democrats’ spokesman on Foreign Affairs

ANGELA KNIGHT: Chief Executive, British Bankers’ Association

from The Hayesbrook School, Brook Street, Tonbridge, Kent, TN9 2PH

DIMBLEBY:
Welcome to the ancient Medway town of Tonbridge in Kent, not to be confused it says with the very much newer Tunbridge Wells which is also spelt differently. We are the guests here of The Hayesbrook School which is a little over 50 years old, a boys foundation school which specialises in sports and applied learning. It is also a training school for student teachers and it is proud of its most recent Ofsted Report which characterises Hayesbrook as outstanding. On our panel: Bill Rammell who has just returned from the Dept of Lifelong Learning to the Foreign Office where he is now Minister of State for special responsibility for the Middle East, counter terrorism and migration policy. Eric Pickles is the Shadow Secretary for Communities and Local Government and is ranked by a Conservative grass roots website as second only to William Hague as the most popular member of the Shadow Cabinet. Mr. Pickles can you just answer is that because the grass roots have a down on Eton or was the poll rigged by Yorkshire members?

ERIC PICKLES
We just had random computers to vote on that’s the problem vote early vote often.

DIMBLEBY
Ed Davey chairs his party’s campaigns and communications committee. The former Chief of Staff to Sir Menzies Campbell, he now speaks for the Liberal Democrats on Foreign Affairs. Angela Knight served as Economics Secretary to the Treasury in the last Major Government, then she lost her seat in the Labour landslide of 1997 but she is now in another hot seat as Chief Executive of the British Bankers Association. Given the public mood at the moment it must feel sometimes as though you are representing a Trade Union of con men and old lags.

ANGELA KNIGHT
Well it certainly is not the easiest of times to represent what is still one of the UK’s greatest industries and biggest supporters of the economy.

DIMBLEBY
She is the fourth member of our panel.

(APPLAUSE)

And may we have our first question.

PAUL SLATER
In the light of comments made by the BBC Trust does the team think that Jonathan Ross should return to his job in January at a cost of several million pounds to licence fee payer?

DIMBLEBY
The phrase amongst many used by the BBC Trust’s Chairman was that the phone calls were grossly offensive. Eric Pickles

ERIC PICKLES
I think the phone calls were grossly offensive. I like I suppose everybody else watched them on YouTube and it wasn’t very nice listening to a couple of millionaires bully an old man. But this guy is a comedian. We can’t expect the same kind of standards that we would expect from our old dear Dimbleby’s. I think (laugh)

DIMBLEBY
Don’t interrupt yourself Mr. Pickles

ERIC PICKLES
No I was milking the laughter. (LAUGH) But I do think the BBC were right. There was a question of editorial. They knew this was bad. They knew it involved swearing. They knew it was distasteful and they still decided to put it in. Now whether Jonathan Ross returns or not and I will confess that a fair while ago I used to find him quite funny though I do think recently he has been more like an embarrassing uncle at a wedding sort of leering at women and asking everybody to sing “Agadoo” and wondering why people are looking just a little embarrassed. So I do think he needs to probably find a new role for himself as I think Angus Dayton found that once you become a figure of fun yourself it is very difficult to poke fun at others but I really think we should get a grip of ourselves. This is just a comedian and whether the BBC wants to pay a ridiculously large sum of money for him is a matter for the BBC and us poor licence payers but I don’t think it is really earth shattering.

DIMBLEBY
Angela Knight?

ANGELA KNIGHT
I don’t think I am quite as forgiving about this as Eric actually. Nor did I see it on YouTube I only read about it and maybe it was easier to read about it than it was to hear it or see it. I do think that what they did was grossly offensive, it was unnecessary, to think they thought it was funny and then through all the processes prior to it being broadcast it was thought to be acceptable it concerns me rather a lot and the thing about how this occurred and all our involvement in it, is that yes of course humour is something that is different to all of us what they did then wasn’t funny to me. But I also don’t think it was right and I think there is something about standards and public broadcasting here which is important. We all pay our licence fee and frankly if he returns I am not going to watch him, I am not going to listen to him and my preference would be that he didn’t.
(APPLAUSE)

DIMBLEBY
The Trust said that processes that were in place were used properly and compliance and so on and that editorial judgement was at fault, others have commented that it is something to do with a culture failure in the BBC as it tries to reach out to audiences, young people specifically who might not otherwise be willing to pay their licence fee. Do you think there is a cultural issue there?

ANGELA KNIGHT
Yes I think there is and I think it must be quite difficult for a broadcaster to be in sympathy with the culture of those who they want to listen to their programmes and it can’t be the same culture depending because the various age groups are different but I still think in this instance there may be a cultural issue but it still wasn’t right.

DIMBLEBY
Ed Davey?

ED DAVEY
Like Eric I think the phone calls were offensive but what has worried me about this whole debate is that politicians have felt that they should be commenting on what is in radio programmes and TV programmes and I don’t want tonight to do that and I don’t want to try to say what the employment relationship should be of a broadcaster with a comedian. I really don’t think that’s the job of a politician.

DIMBLEBY
But the questioner Paul Slater is asking you, you are a politician but you are also clearly a human being whether you think it is a good idea.

ED DAVEY
But I was making the point I will come to the human being bit in a second but I was making the point as a politician because a number of our national politicians have decided that they should comment on this and

DIMBLEBY
The Prime Minister commented on it

ED DAVEY
Indeed and I think they were wrong and the leader of the opposition and I think that is absolutely wrong. Now if I was to become a member by some miracle of the BBC Trust and had to judge on this I would have wanted to look at the enquiry and looked at the facts and made a rational judgement and I think the real problem in this case was editorial control and I note that Lesley Douglas who was in charge of BBC 2 has gone, a senior Executive has gone and people have paid the price, people have been held accountable. That is exactly what should happen in a public body but I don’t, I am not a member of the BBC Trust I have not seen a report so I am not going to second guess what they should do with respect of employment of a comedian. (APPLAUSE)

DIMBLEBY
Just a slip Lesley Douglas is Radio 2 not BBC 2. Bill Rammell

BILL RAMMELL
Well I think politicians are entitled to express a view but I agree on this with Ed that politicians certainly shouldn’t decide what goes on television. As a Foreign Office Minister I travel to many parts of the world and where you see countries where politicians do decide what goes out on the media it is a fairly regrettable situation. Having said that let me declare an interest. I actually like Jonathan Ross. I find him funny. (APPLAUSE). If I was in on a Friday evening I would watch Friday Night with Jonathan Ross, however, and I think he would acknowledge this what took place was a huge error of judgement on his part and on the part of the BBC management to attack the granddaughter of a 78 year old man in those terms is not funny in any way shape or form and I think there are lessons for the BBC to be learnt in how this was handled. What was most regrettable was that this was pre recorded interview and it was then passed up the line and people deliberately took a decision that this was acceptable to go out on the airways and I think most people would accept with hindsight that certainly shouldn’t have been the case. However, having said that one final point one thing that I found unsettling about this whole situation is the press campaign which has been run which actually in my view doesn’t have a great deal to do with the merits of Jonathan Ross but is led by a number of newspapers who frankly have had it in for the BBC for an awful long time who want to break up the BBC. I am not just saying it because I am sitting on a BBC platform the BBC sometimes gets things wrong but it is a very good institution in this country and I think we would be in a worse situation if we didn’t have a BBC.

DIMBLEBY
Paul Slater how would you answer your own question?

PAUL SLATER
Well I do take issue that a couple of member of the panel describe Jonathan Ross as a comedian I think actually he is a presenter employed by the BBC to present shows and therefore has a certain responsibility to behave in a certain way even though he is an entertainer.

DIMBLEBY
You asked if he should come back or not

PAUL SLATER
I think he has crossed the line

DIMBLEBY
And you wouldn’t have him back

PAUL SLATER
No.

DIMBLEBY
Who in our audience here in Tonbridge is looking forward or expecting without any disapproval Jonathan Ross to come back to the airways on television in January. Would you put your hands up? Who is looking forward to it or think it is perfectly OK? Who would like him not to be allowed back on the airwaves? Well if he was doing his programme in Tonbridge for the BBC I am afraid it would be a thumbs down. You will have views about that perhaps if so the Any Answers number to ring after the Saturday broadcast of this programme is 03700 100 444. The email address Any.answers@bbc.co.uk. Our next please.

JEAN PHILLIPS-MARTINSON
What has happened to Gordon’s prudence?

DIMBLEBY
Alison Knight.

ANGELA KNIGHT
Angela

DIMBLEBY
Angela Knight so sorry.

ANGELA KNIGHT
Well I suppose the quick answer is that Gordon’s prudence has gone out of the window but that did happen a little while ago when the spending started particularly in public expenditure areas but I suspect that the issue that you are really talking is some of the steps that have been taken recently about the stabilization of the financial system which has taken place here and elsewhere. And I think that we all recognise that extreme conditions do require actions which possibly were never ones that anybody could have expected and governments do have to have a role in this. I think looking ahead is not the easiest thing to do but certainly there is a need to keep expenditure and income balanced whether we are individuals or whether we are governments.

DIMBLEBY
What do you make of what we are told is going to be in the Chancellor’s pre-budget statement on Monday to the effect that there will be tax cuts. We don’t know how much or where precisely they will fall but there will be compensatory tax increases in the fiscal year we are told 11/12. What do you make of that as a demonstration of prudence or whatever?

ANGELA KNIGHT
I think we have got to see the statement first because if you are going to say to the people we are going to cut taxes this year but we are going to raise taxes in a year or two or three years time then it raises the question what is the point. I think the question that needs to be addressed is where should there be tax cuts, what actions need to be taken with the economy to try and keep the economy motoring reasonably through what is very clear a big recession and I think there is some real hard work and hard decisions are going to have to be made. There are tax issues for business, why because businesses are employers and if employment keeps going that helps individuals that helps families, that helps the economy but there is also something about where you are going to spend money. I noted that Barack Obama said that the first thing he was going to do was a line by line detailed analysis of all expenditure that is taking place in the US. I think we need to do that here as well, so we know where we are spending, we are spending on the right things and when we make tax cuts we are making tax cuts on the right things and then we do need to balance the budget and how that is balanced has got to be addressed. We can’t pretend that nothing is going to happen from a public expenditure that increases and a tax that reduces.

DIMBLEBY
We may come back to some of this with you but Ed Davey?

ED DAVEY
I actually agree with Angela. I think the real problem began quite a few years ago and Gordon went on a spending splurge and the result is that we are not getting good value for money and there is quite a lot of waste going on out there and I agree that a line by line analysis should be able to find savings for spending on things that are more vital, that are front line and indeed for some tax cuts. However one has got to unpack the deficit, some of it is to do with the recession, when taxes are going down and benefits are going up and that should happen in a recession. It is called, the technical term the automatic stabilizers, to stabilize the economy and we should welcome that. I think all parties I believe supported the bank bail out so the deficit we can’t criticize. The question for Monday is the size of the fiscal stimulus and how that is done. I don’t think anyone will doubt that the economy needs a fiscal stimulus, it needs some money put into the economy by the government, we are in a real mess. the question how that is done I am worried that either there will be an unfunded tax cut which will mean the deficit will get bigger and bigger and that will create real problems, interest rates and the exchange rates so it won’t actually help the economy or there will be short term tax cuts he will grab back a year later which means they will be ineffective. They will be ineffective because people will say well tax is going up in a year’s time so I am not going to spend this money because I am going to get clobbered down the line so the question is the type of fiscal stimulus. And the ones that the Liberal Democrats would like to see is the capital investments projects being brought forward, investments in energy insulation that would help the environment and it would get some of these unemployed builders into work. We would like to see social housing expanded massively. The government are tinkering at the edges of this. We have got a housing crisis in this country, it has not gone away. Here is a time when land is cheaper, when there are unemployed builders to really address that social housing crisis that is the sort of fiscal stimulus which makes sense in the long term, is prudent in the long term and would help the economy. (APPLAUSE)

DIMBLEBY
Bill Rammell. What happened just to remind ourselves of the question what happened to Gordon’s prudence?

BILL RAMMELL
I will come on directly to that but let me first pick up this point about looking at what you are actually spending public money. As somebody who has just moved from a major spending dept to the foreign office I can categorically assure you that line by line every dot and comma is gone through in terms of expenditure because we know that people want value for money and I would imagine that in the future there would be further commitments to efficiency

DIMBLEBY
Sorry as you started then are you saying that you said further commitments to efficiency are you saying that because it is gone through line by line there is very little fat to remove from the bones?

BILL RAMMELL
Well in any organisation you are constantly challenging yourself to do better and that is a process that we have been undergoing and I think it will happen in the future as well but the reason we are in this situation and we need additional borrowing and we need tax cuts is because we are in a wholly different international, economic situation the like of which I have never known in my lifetime and I doubt if hardly anybody in this room has known. We have seen a 40% collapse in the world share price. We have seen global financial institutions having to write off a $1 thousand billion worth of lost assets. That is a major problem. We need to respond, we need to respond in a co-coordinated fashion and that is what the meeting in Washington last weekend was about, we need a co coordinated fiscal boost, we need a monetary boost in terms of reducing interest rates but we also do need tax cuts to boost the economy and the reason we want to do that is to actually make the recession, the downturn less severe than it otherwise would be and I think that in many circumstances the worse thing we could do and you know there’s some history here, it is what happened in the early 1980’s the early 1990’s is sit tight, do nothing and if you want to have tax cuts see unemployment go through the roof, see the cost of paying for unemployment go through the roof and then you certainly would see taxes going up so I think we do need to act. We need to act on the side of ordinary people and I think there is a consensus internationally you know virtually every advanced and developing country at the meeting last weekend is saying this is the right thing to do. In this country, the CBI, the Institute of Directors, the TUC are saying we need to move in this direction. It is just George Osborne and David Cameron who are suggesting a different course.

DIMBLEBY
OK Eric Pickles

ERIC PICKLES
Yes we are altogether except when it includes George Osborne and David Cameron. If we, talking about prudence, I think it is probably fair to say that the last rites have been served upon the poor old dear and she is as dead as a door nail. Do you know? I don’t know what Bill was trying to say whether it was all a great international problem it is all caused by sub prime way out there in the West the truth is that we have had 10 years of an unsustained boom largely built on unsustained credit. We have borrowed out and we have come to a position now where we are looking to borrow some more to bail us out even further and there is nothing left in the cupboard. We can talk about monetary stimuli and fiscal stimuli but the truth my granddad could have sorted this out. I remember him telling me as a kid that you can’t live your life on tick lad. That sooner or later the tally man comes and the essential difference between what my Party is saying and what Bill’s Party is saying is that our worry is at precisely and exactly the time when we are going to want to do that stimulus we will have, the tally man will be knocking on the door and the reason why. Let’s be absolutely blunt about this. The reason why it has been allowed to be known to the BBC by the Chancellor that there are going to be some tax cuts and there are also going to be some tax increases is that Mr Darling has got the eeby geebies about the pound. If he didn’t do that then we would see a further drop which has been 30% already in the value of our pound because we have to demonstrate that somewhere along the line there is something left of prudence.

DIMBLEBY
But if he comes on Monday and say s these are the tax cuts this is where they will benefit and there will be these tax increases to compensate in due course it rather shoots your fox doesn’t it because you call it a tax con that isn’t a tax con isn’t it?

ERIC PICKLES
This isn’t about shooting anybody’s fox

DIMBLEBY
But that is the implication, highly politically charged that you have laid against the government

ERIC PICKLES
I mean there is more at this than just politics and movements up and down in the polls. If Mr. Darling makes a foolish mistake and I can't see any reason why George Osborne and David Cameron shouldn’t have the ability like Obama to be able to look at this line by line scrutiny basis. We will look very carefully what they have got to say but our primary concern is that the people in the hall and their children and their grandchildren don’t end up paying for this for the rest of their lives.

DIMBLEBY
So just one more thing, one more thing. You use the elevated language of saying it is not about politics the fact is that the central charge that has been laid by your Party against the government is that what is being proffered in all likelihood is a tax con. I am asking you whether if that, if the Chancellor says that there will, that this tax cut will be compensated for in due course as the economy takes off with a tax increase it is no longer a con is it.

ERIC PICKLES
What I think the most important thing that we need to do is that we need to get the banks lending again. What we are essentially saying is that if we can get the money into small business if we can start people doing investing that is probably the better way of doing it. You see governments can probably do two things in a recession of this kind. They can kind of ease the passage down which is to keep people into homes, trying to get debts rescheduled trying to work things out and be ready at the time when we are coming out of that to push us out of that recession as quickly as we can through investment, through housing and the like and I am worried that forgive me I am worried that we are going to throw that opportunity away because the Prime Minister is in a personal hole.

DIMBLEBY
Briefly because I am going to move on to a related issue. Bill Rammell

BILL RAMMELL
Well certainly we need to get the banks lending again and I don’t think to take one example had we let Northern Rock go to the wall as Eric and his colleagues argued that that would have happened.

ERIC PICKLES
No, no, no

DIMBLEBY
Hang on both of you. I need to oblige you because I know what is coming up and you don’t want to go there for a moment.

BILL RAMMELL
Just a slightly different point

DIMBLEBY
You want to make another point now OK.

BILL RAMMELL
One direct question to Eric if our level of public spending is so unsustainable given we need consistency why was it that until Wednesday of this week that was the level of public spending you were committed to? (APPLAUSE)

ERIC PICKLES
Bill you are a busy man I don’t expect you to look at everything the Conservative Party are saying but we have been saying for months now that we would review our spending in 2010/ 2011. We never wrote you a blank cheque because we know what kind of damage you do to the country if anybody writes you a blank cheque

DIMBLEBY
And Ed Davey.

ED DAVEY
The problem is with the Conservative position is it seems to be do nothing. You are not in favour of tax cuts, you are not in favour of fiscal stimulus this is what George Osborne has said. The problem with the Labour position, the government position is we don’t know how these tax cuts are going to be paid for. Maybe we will hear about this on Monday but tax cuts are needed. They are needed permanently because we need a fairer society. We need tax cuts for those on low incomes, tax cuts for those on middle incomes and some of the loop holes that labour has introduced for the wealthiest in this country should be closed to pay for those tax cuts for those people who are really struggling.

DIMBLEBY
OK The reason I obliged you to stop talking about the banks at that moment is because of the next question that is coming up.

OLIVER PAYNE
What will it take to get the banks to act in the national interest and start lending again?

DIMBLEBY
Carry on Bill Rammell

BILL RAMMELL
I mean I think the banks in this country need to recognise that we have had an unprecedented and huge justifiable given the circumstances financial injection into the banking system that is tax payers money that that comes with responsibilities that when the interest rate falls and I know there is a debate that it is not the interest rate that matters it is actually the inter bank lending rate but actually the IBLR has come down significantly over recent weeks. That has to and should be passed on to the consumer whether they are a mortgage holder or whether they are a business. That is what we need to see happen and I think there is not only if you like a moral responsibility on the part of the banks but I actually think there is a huge degree of self interest because we are in a very difficult situation. I said earlier this is unprecedented in the whole of my adult lifetime unless we can kick start people spending then we are all in a very serious situation and banks in the longer term will pay a price for that as well.

DIMBLEBY
When the Prime Minister said that he was going to bring forward measures I quote “very soon indeed” to persuade or attempt to force the banks to do what you want them to do the banks he says have got to accept their responsibilities. “We have done what we can they have to accept their responsibilities to act in a manner that is responsible and fair, we will take all measures necessary to help small business get the loan capital they need”. Are you saying you have the powers which you will exercise to oblige the banks to lend?

BILL RAMMELL
Well Jonathan I am not in a position to pre empt either way what we may announce and it is a fact that certainly in terms of the business of mortgages, the majority have actually passed on the recent very significant interest rate cut but given what has happened, given that the inter bank lending rate has now come down significantly as well I think there is an absolute priority for the banks to pass that on.

DIMBLEBY
Do you accept that there is an absolute priority to start lending one to another and to the public again Angela Knight?

ANGELA KNIGHT
What the business the banks are in is about lending money and to think that they don’t want to lend money is simply not correct. If one looks at actually what the statistics show and there are some out on small business lending today you see that the small business lending in the third quarter of this year is a bit up on the small business lending on the quarter last year. but what has happened and Bill is absolutely right on this, what has happened is we have gone from a period in which there was money sloshing around the world, where there was a huge amount of credit available to a period when that has simply dried up . The implosion in the sub prime market in the US has frozen the normal money system that operates around the world, now some banks are able to ride this difficult period rather better than others and so you are finding that lending is not necessarily as uniform as it was before. Also there is another priority banks are lending the money of people who have deposited savings with them. It is surely right that they do a proper assessment of who they lend to and frankly in an economy which is going down quite fast you have to price in the risk otherwise you are not serving your save as well.

DIMBLEBY
You are talking as though these people in these banks are like priests or doctors they are guilty are they not your members of at least massive incompetence which has brought about this situation (APPLAUSE) so how do we trust that they are doing all the right things that doctors and priests would propose that should be done.

ANGELA KNIGHT
There are of course 3 banks for whom the government are proposing to invest in. That investment has not yet taken place. There is another 200 + banks operating in the UK so I think you know you need to be careful if I may suggest not to use just a blanket expression

DIMBLEBY
So what is stopping all the rest doing all the borrowing, the lending then? What is stopping the other ones doing the lending? If they have behaved cautiously and wisely why can’t they do they lending that the government has said they ought to be doing

ANGELA KNIGHT
Which is one of the reasons I did bring you the small business statistics which has been widely publicised today which actually shows that lending is still taking place. It hasn’t gone suddenly to a stop. What it has done, it has slowed, it has slowed both in terms of mortgages and I will just come to those in a moment if I may as well in businesses, slowed in the sense that growth is not there as strongly as it was before but growth there is still. And actually you know we also have third party research which has been done by at least one of the organisations that represents small business which actually does acknowledge you can still get your small business loans, there aren’t any issues in that area.

DIMBLEBY
At this point I am just going to throw in, I will let you carry on I will throw in on that precise point that you can as a small business get the loans 03700 100 444 is the Any Answers number and any.answers@bbc.co.uk is the email address so that we can hear form some small business people if they wish to that they have indeed got loans or others that feel they have got a big problem

ANGELA KNIGHT
But it is a pity that you didn’t let me finish my sentence

DIMBLEBY
I said I would come back to you to carry on with it

ANGELA KNIGHT
The and in that sentence is that there is a right and proper business plan there. You know in down turns. I mean I ran a small business in the North of England through the late 70’s early 80’s and that was heavy industry and that was a really bad recession in the North of England. It was never thought of to be that sort of recession in the South because it didn’t touch the South but in the North it was a big and difficult recession and so I am not just parroting a few figures there is something about getting your business plan right, there is something about having to take hard, nasty and often tough decisions but if that plan is right and you talk to your bank there is small business finance available. If there wasn’t then you wouldn’t have the figures as they are and indeed as we discuss it and it is discussed all the time between lenders and borrowers there is finance available.

DIMBLEBY
So just one more thing are you saying that everything that is possible and should be done is being done and that no more pressure on the banks or support for the bank sis required or would make any difference?

ANGELA KNIGHT
No I think there are several things more that do need to be done. One of the things that the banking industry is doing is putting in place a much more personalized service available for businesses that get into difficulty. Another is that we have a lot of business links and other types of assistance and help around the country which are there to actually aid small businesses. I think a third that we as an industry, we as a banking industry need to get to our customers early because if you can catch somebody who is getting into difficulties as early as possible and that is the same for a business then that would be better and I think that fourthly we need to have a better open discussion and there is something about some of those assistance, you know the loan guarantee scheme which building on that substantially will help in the more risky end of the lending so we can do a broader based approach of helping small businesses and others what is a very difficult time.

DIMBLEBY
Ed Davey.

ED DAVEY.
What Angela’s answer doesn’t really address is the fact that the government are lending, will lend some of these banks £10’s of billions of tax payers money to them on condition that they start lending again. That was the whole point of the bank bail out. That is why people are angry across the country and businesses are angry across the country because the banks aren’t doing their part of the deal. Now the question is what can we do to kick start that because I think the government plan is failing a little bit They have put these Directors on the boards that they have bought equity ink, that they have invested in and they have said that those directors will be silent directors. Well I don’t think businesses around the country and people want them to be silent. I think they want to be talking to the other Directors on the board the other executives of banks and saying you have got to pay your part, you have got to do your side of the deal and if they are not prepared, if the government is not prepared to do that they need to answer to the House of commons for that. Now even if that doesn’t work there has to be another plan. And Nick Clegg for the Liberal Democrats early this week laid out our proposal and if we can’t get the banks to lend directly we are going to have to take very special measures, these are extraordinary times and maybe the government will have to lend directly to businesses. Not something that I would like to see permanently. It is not something that I am particularly happy about but I think if the banks aren’t prepared to do it the government is going to have to step in. It can use Bradford and Bingley and Northern Rock which are now 100% owned and I think if the Government did that it could use it as a bargaining chip with the private banks and boy would they start getting worried and they might be forced into lending and start actually facing responsibilities that they owe the British people and the British economy. (APPLAUSE)

DIMBLEBY
Eric Pickles

ERIC PICKLES
Well I think we need to have it pretty clear in our mind why they aren’t lending. Firstly in those banks that have been subject to recapitalization the money has not arrived. So there is a kind of a lag. And all these bankers are worried, they are concerned they have seen bad investment decisions ruin banks so what we need to do is put some kind of confidence in the system and we seem to be sort of all telling what our own parties are going to do this week we announced we are looking towards the government guaranteeing some of the loans in order to encourage them to get into the system of lending but I think there is another aspect of this that the banks are involved. Clearly one of the things we want them to start doing is to start building again, to start investing in the building industry but there is the other side which is their decisions with regard to foreclosures. We saw the figures this morning the level of foreclosures. Under that there was a statistic that didn’t get much publicity. People who have got arrears of 12 months if you do a comparison to how it was dealt with in the last recession about 18% faced repossession, now it is 103%, 103% so there is literally no one with, in fact there is no one with 12 months of arrears. They have been so quick to lend out the money and so quick to start the process of foreclosure and I am sure the other MP’s will vouch. What we are seeing particularly from a number of the nationalized banks is a very aggressive view about foreclosure particularly when folks are now in negative equity and all that is really going to do is throw more houses on to the market, drop the price and make the situation worse so I think we are a rather expecting them to adhere to things like the council of mortgage lenders guidelines. What we find is that down on constituency level they are not and if we are going to get out of this we need them to work together with all of us.

DIMBLEBY
I must move on but I give you a moment Angela just to respond on that particular thing.

ANGELA KNIGHT
I would like to respond on the £37 billion because I think that is an important point and on this £37 billion which is a recapitalization to the banks or 3 of the banks that is exactly what it is because don’t forget the government said banks must hold almost twice the amount of capital than they were holding, what they were holding was around 5% on the standards, the international standards, the government said you have got to hold twice that you have got to build it up to 9%. That is what that is for to increase the capital that the government has said that the banks must hold and for practical purposes what that means is this. It is that for every £100 that you used to take in you could lend about £90 but now you can lend about £85 so yes it has done a good job in ensuring a recapitalization a bigger capitalization base but that flows through to lending and surely I come back again we are in a much harder economic environment. The issue is to help people through. You can’t be saying surely that taxpayers money or savers money should be lent willy nilly it has to be a prudent sensible arrangement and that money, the £37 billions for increasing the capital that was what the decision was that was made that is what it is for.

DIMBLEBY
OK we will go to our (APPLAUSE) our next question.

KAMMY KWAN
If the BNP is a political party why should people be vilified for being a member?

DIMBLEBY
And with some dispatch if you would although it is an extremely important issue. Ed Davey?

ED DAVEY
Well I think the BNP has got horrendous views and I would want to attack the party’s views on as many public platforms as possible. I think all mainstream political parties would want to make sure that people understood that their arguments have no logic, are completely wrong and that is as it should be in the democratic process. I think I may agree with the questioner on one bit though. I don’t think, I think it is completely wrong that people, that these members names and addresses appeared on the internet. That was a breach of data protection and that law should apply to everybody whether they are a member of the BNP Party or not so there is something wrong has happened. I also think that BNP Party members are entitled to the rule of law like anyone else and people who, there is an alleged incident in Wales I believe, where a BNP Party member’s car has been set on fire

DIMBLEBY
I think it is unclear but the evidence is there was a member of the BNP who lived nearby and something happened to the car.

ED DAVEY
Now if that is a sign of things to come that would be quite outrageous.

DIMBLEBY
Do you think it is better given the drive of the question is it better from your point of view that someone should be an active member of a political party, that is a legal party, namely the BNP than they should be not interested in politics at all. Obviously you would prefer them to be in your Party but do you, but is it better to be in the BNP than no Party?

ED DAVEY
No I don’t I would really discourage everybody not to be in the BNP. It is an appalling Party and I would far rather if people want to get into politics join the Labour Party or the Conservative Party than even considering joining the BNP.

DIMBLEBY
Why should people be vilified you were asked Minister for being a member of the BNP

BILL RAMMELL
Well I think you need to take on their ideas and their arguments. I mean I had a genuine horror of the views and the platform of the British National Party. They deal in the politics of scapegoating people, they deal in the politics of hate and fear and they are always looking to isolate weak people. However having said that I am not an instinctive banner. Before taking on this job for three and a half years I was Minister of State for Higher Education where I argued against what are called no platform policies where you jut banned people from speaking on the university premises because you disagree with the political label that they are standing under and I think you do need to take on the arguments of the far Right and you need to defeat them. That is something practically in my own constituency I have done. There are all sorts of myths that the British National Party put forward about the way that immigrants are taking housing for example away from the local community. It is not actually backed up by the facts. You have got to go out into the community. You have got to reassure people and you have actually got to provide some answers to the genuine fears that they have got. There are however some difficult issues in terms so I am not instinctively in favour if you are a member of the British National Party you shouldn’t be able to do x, y and z job.; There are some caveats to that for example the Police Force and there is within the regulations, there is a ban because you actually are going to be exercising authority equitably on behalf of the community and I don’t think you can do that if you are a member of the British National Party. But I think we need to take on the BNP and we need to defeat them. (APPLAUSE)

DIMBLEBY
Eric Pickles

ERIC PICKLES
Well apart form my role in the Shadow Cabinet I have also had responsibility in the Conservative Party for a number of years for our local government elections and I have actively worked with the Labour Party and with the Liberal Democrats to ensure that we always field candidates against the BNP and I am quite happy to say herein the open I would rather see a Labour councilor elected or a Liberal Democrat councilor elected, I would clearly prefer a Conservative councilor to be elected than a BNP. And why do I take this view? Because they operate on hate. I grew up in a multicultural society. I am proud of living in Bradford. You just can’t imagine the fear that used to stalk around there when that activism started place. And the reason I dislike them is because they dislike people because of the colour of their skin, or their ethnic background and they regard people who have been born here, who have live here, who are part of British society somehow as being they want to get rid and I find that repulsive. Let’s deal with the bigger issue. Should policemen be allowed to become members of the BNP, no they ruddy well should not. Because you expect the police to be completely independent. I don’t want them to join the conservative party; I don’t want them to join the Labour Party or even the Liberal Democrats. I want the policemen to be free of politics. I want Prison Officers to be free of politics; I want members of our armed forces to be free of politics.

DIMBLEBY
They of course, a police officer can join any of the other established political parties.

ERIC PICKLES
Depends on the level. Once you get up constable level you can’t join and it does vary from constabulary to constabulary. Should they be allowed to be teachers? Yes I think they should. Should they be allowed to be postmen? Yes I think they should be able to do but I think people need to be reassured about the whole process that their views are not allowed to go into the classroom. Why do I think that? Because we cannot allow ourselves into a position to operate on the degree of intolerance that they operate for others so ensuring that they can be teachers and be postmen and the like is part of our freedom and that is what we are there to defend.

DIMBLEBY
Thank you Angela Knight

ANGELA KNIGHT
Well very briefly because I have not got a lot to add to what my fellow panelists have said I agree with their views on the BNP and I also agree that it is much better to argue these issues out in the public domain than have some bans or some artificial vilification taking place in one way or another. I do get concerned that when I read bout some of the policies that they have and I would like to see them out in the open and I would like to see the mainstream political parties defeat the BNP because they are providing for the electorate the sort of policies that the electorate wants.

DIMBLEBY
Quickly to our questioner Kammy Kwan you put this question

KAMMY KWAN
Yes can I just say I don’t agree with them at all but I don’t think that it is right that you are stopping people form actually having a belief surely that is a breach of their freedom to believe in something like policemen? Why is it OK for them to be sacked because they are in a BNP party and not a conservative. I don’t understand.

DIMBLEBY
Well think we will leave that question hanging there and you may want to discuss it in Any Answers. The number 03700 100 444. We can squeeze in our final question. Thank you for that question

MARIAN COOK
Who would you choose as your partner if you were a contestant on Strictly Come Dancing?

(LAUGH)

DIMBLEBY
You may assume that John Sergeant is not available. Bill Brammell

BILL RAMMELL
Oh God.

DIMBLEBY
He may be available but I can’t speak for him or her.

BILL RAMMELL
I am actually a great fan of Strictly Come Dancing and as my wife is sitting in the audience and she knows that I have got two left feet and absolutely no rhythm whatsoever I am going to send out a search party for the worst female dancer in the country so that I can at least look a bit better.

DIMBLEBY
Ed Davey

ED DAVEY
Well I am going to play it safe. My wife but there is a particularly good reason I can really embarrass her when I am on the dance floor and she goes red and it is great fun

DIMBLEBY
Angela Knight

ANGELA KNIGHT
I would want to choose a wonderfully attractive hunky really stupendous male dancer so that I could just stand there in a pretty frock and wobble whilst he did all the twirls around me just like the partner of John Sergeant did for him that is what I would like

DIMBLEBY
And finally Eric Pickles

ERIC PICKLES
Well I am prepared to give up my place because now that John Sergeant is out Jonathan I think it is you what is your passé doble like?

DIMBLEBY
It has to be seen to be believed. But thank you so much for the invitation. It takes us to the end of this weeks programme. Next week Geoff Hoon, Vince Cable, Caroline Lucas and David Willets. Join us there but from here at the Hayesbrook School Tonbridge Goodbye.

Any Questions?